From: Malcolm [malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:20 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: [off-topic] eighty et al... "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEOMEBAA.tom@kednos.com... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bernd Paysan [mailto:bernd.paysan@gmx.de] > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:57 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: [off-topic] eighty et al... > > > > > > Alexis Cousein schrieb: > > > 96 is "Quatre-vingt dix-neuf" (four twenty and nineteen) in France > > > and "nonante neuf" (ninety nine) in Belgium. > > > > I've heard both "ottante" and "nonante", but it seems to come from > > arabic influence (there is a fairly large arabic population in France, > > and to them, quatre-vingt dis-neuf is really unnatural). > > I have heard that also, in southern France, and I think Belgium. But why > do you think Arabic. I would guess more likely Italian, which is what it > sounds like. > When I learned French at school many years ago, our teacher mentioned that some dialects of French used "septante", "huitante" or "octante" and "nonante" for seventy, eighty and ninety respectively. IIRC, he said it was mainly Belgian French and Quebecois. he said it had been invented, much in the same way that Americans invented words like "aluminum"... Ordinary French uses, as has been mentioned, a system based on twenties. [60="soixante", 70="soixante-dix", 80="quatre vingt", 90="quatre vingt dix"]. Vestiges of this can also be found in English, e.g. "three score and ten", "six hundred, three score and six". This of course is the same as the number of digits on the body [polydactyly excepted ;-)]. Scots Gaelic still uses a similar vigesimal system (aon, da, tri, ceithir, coig, sia, siochd, ochd, naoi, deich = 1 to 10, 11 = "aon dheug" (1+10), 20 = fhichead, 21 = "aon air fhichead" (1 and 20), 31 = "aon dheug air fhichead" (1+10 and 20), 41 = "da fhichead is a haon" (2 x 20 and one), all the way up to "ceithir fhichead is a naoi deug" (4x20 and 9+10 = 99). [Just to let you know, I had to look it up and can't count reliably past six in Gaelic. To give you an idea of how difficult it is to _say_, 99 sounds roughly like "caeer eecheadd is a noy dook". How far would _you_ get with a language whose word for "pronunciation" is "fuaimneachadach" ;] Basque, Manx Gaelic and Breton (all neighbouring languages) also have vigesimal systems, so it is likely that French borrowed its system from Basque or Breton. More OT: Duodecimal (base-12; English examples = "dozen", "gross") and sexagesimal(?) (base-60; example = 60 seconds/min, 360 degrees/circle) systems are believed to have originated from the number of bones (or knuckles) in the four main fingers. For Everything about Numbering Systems That You Always Wanted To Know (But Were Too Afraid to Ask) see: http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/language/number.html (In English) -Malcolm -- Malcolm MacArthur Subtract nine for e-mail (anti-spam measure) > > > > -- > > Bernd Paysan > > "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" > > http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ > >