INFO-VAX Mon, 17 Nov 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 622 Contents: Re: Bypass mount/system request at boot time? Re: Emulation Re: Emulation Re: Emulation Re: Fibre channel driver documentation Re: OVMS Integrity BASIC LTU Getting only 1 user at cost of $2400.00??? Re: strange disk state and corrupt new mail file Re: strange disk state and corrupt new mail file Re: strange disk state and corrupt new mail file Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:26:45 +1030 From: Jeremy Begg Subject: Re: Bypass mount/system request at boot time? Message-ID: <4920EB7D.3020700@vsm.com.au> Hi, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article , > cornelius@eisner.decus.org (George Cornelius) writes: > > >>$ MOUNT/ASSIST is normally appropriate at mount time, but if you have >>shadow sets you may want to consider /POLICY=REQUIRE_MEMBERS as well, >>since this gives you a chance to reject the mounting of a single >>member when it may be possible that the single member that is seen >>at boot is not the one with the most current data. > ... > Having said that, I've never had the problem of a less-than-current disk > being mounted. While I can see how it can happen, I think it must be a > rather rare occurrence. Has anyone ever seen it happen, or seen that it > WOULD HAVE happened had /POLICY=REQUIRE_MEMBERS not been in effect? > ... Yes, it happened to me. Classic textbook case on how to setup a VAXcluster wrongly. I was called in to investigate why this site -- with which I had no prior contact -- found their data was suddenly six months old. The system consisted of a pair of VAXstations in an LAVcluster configuration. Each machine had two drives in it and at least one volume was shadowed between them, i.e. the shadow set consisted of one drive from machine "A" and one from machine "B". The intention was that if a machine failed the other one would keep going (perhaps with a reboot to clear cluster quorum, although as far as I could tell no procedure for this was ever provided to the users). After some digging around in ERRLOG.SYS and multiple OPERATOR.LOG files I worked out what happened: 1. Six months previously, the data disk in VAX "A" died. VMS shadowing did its thing and the application continued to run, relying on the copy on the disk in VAX "B". No one noticed, because there was no interruption to service. ("Yay!" for VMS -- or maybe not.) 2. On the weekend before I was called in, there was a site power failure which caused the "dead" disk to come back to life. 4. VAX "A" rebooted first, mounted the shadow set (using only the member local to it) and then there was another power failure. 5. Both VAXes rebooted but by this time VAX "A" had the master copy of the data disk and it was then quietly shadow-copied to VAX "B". 6. Users come in after the weekend to find wierdness. There are several ways this scenario could have been avoided but sadly they weren't implemented. A year later they ordered a pair of AlphaServer DS25s to replace the two VAXstations -- with the same half-baked disk arrangement! In the end they didn't cluster the two DS25s, they just keep one as a cold spare. Regards, Jeremy Begg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:26:08 -0500 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Re: Emulation Message-ID: <49209E00.25873.C9B7D2E@infovax.stanq.com> On 15 Nov 2008 at 10:41, PR wrote: > I don't know if there is even a Tivoli client for Vax/VMS, but even if > there is, it would probably be a bit out of date and worse, would use > the emulated TCP/IP stack to do a backup. The emulated stack is going > to be slower, if for no other reason than it is running on emulated > instructions. Right. So you don't do the backup that way. Instead, back up the disk(s) to container files (virtual disks) somewhere (local disk, SAN, NAS, etc.). Have VMS dismount the disks. CHARON closes the files, and your Windows- side Tivoli client backs up just those files. Requires some coordination between VMS and Windows, but is fairly easily accomplished. [Shameless Plug Alert (TM) -- I am a CHARON reseller.] --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:19:04 -0800 (PST) From: PR Subject: Re: Emulation Message-ID: <1e73b822-6796-4159-bbe0-7c8fedc0c8cf@q26g2000prq.googlegroups.com> On Nov 16, 9:26=A0pm, "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > On 15 Nov 2008 at 10:41, PR wrote: > > > I don't know if there is even a Tivoli client for Vax/VMS, but even if > > there is, it would probably be a bit out of date and worse, would use > > the emulated TCP/IP stack to do a backup. The emulated stack is going > > to be slower, if for no other reason than it is running on emulated > > instructions. > > Right. =A0So you don't do the backup that way. > > Instead, back up the disk(s) to container files (virtual disks) somewhere= (local disk, > SAN, NAS, etc.). =A0Have VMS dismount the disks. =A0CHARON closes the fil= es, and your Windows- > side Tivoli client backs up just those files. > > Requires some coordination between VMS and Windows, but is fairly easily = accomplished. > > [Shameless Plug Alert (TM) -- I am a CHARON reseller.] > > --Stan Quayle > Quayle Consulting Inc. > > ---------- > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ =A0Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH =A043147 =A0USA > stan-at-stanq-dot-com =A0http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" That is actuallly a fine plan- except the previous message I replied to was suggesting pulling the physcial network plug for the host Windows machine to avoid having to keep it patched and up to date. As long as you are willing to take on yet another Windows box to keep up to date, and are willing to keep Windows administrators from doing silly things to the box which mess up the emulation, it reasonable. Also, with your plan, you have no file by file restore capability. Although I admit, I would tend to do it this way, or else write to a "virtual" tape drive that in reality is a disk file. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:51:31 +0100 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Emulation Message-ID: <4921066f$0$8604$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl> PR vaguely mentioned on 17-11-2008 6:19: [snip] > That is actuallly a fine plan- except the previous message I replied > to was suggesting pulling the physcial network plug for the host > Windows machine to avoid having to keep it patched and up to date. > > As long as you are willing to take on yet another Windows box to keep > up to date, and are willing to keep Windows administrators from doing > silly things to the box which mess up the emulation, it reasonable. > > Also, with your plan, you have no file by file restore capability. > > Although I admit, I would tend to do it this way, or else write to a > "virtual" tape drive that in reality is a disk file. You're absolutely right Paul. That is why in the "Windows unconnected" situation, I recommend either a local tape drive (could be iSCSI to make it usable on more machines), or snapshot clones of drives with virtual tapes on them via a SAN solution. Like Stan says, it requires coordination between the VMS backup schedule and the events in the Windows world, but once you've established an overall schedule it will run forever. Furthermore, a file by file restore is usually available from the last backup set, because that will stay "on line" to VMS. If you want less recent file restores, you need to restore an older set from archived media to Windows first. /Wilm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 12:00:01 -0800 (PST) From: FrankS Subject: Re: Fibre channel driver documentation Message-ID: <3d9c0b7b-ef66-475e-8071-50389dfca855@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com> On Nov 16, 8:15=A0am, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> wrote: > There's no documentation other than the listings. If a device comes > online then the driver will automaticaaly login. You can display > what's going on the the FC extension in SDA, like FC SHOW RING [/FULL] > and/or /SLOW. Do you happen to have some listings you'd like to share? :-) If the driver does recognize a device coming online, then perhaps Jeff's suggestion of disabling and then re-enabling the port will do the trick. I will have to try it this week. Are the FC extension commands documented anywhere other than the listings? I did an SDA> FC HELP and that produces an interesting set of commands, but nothing to describe what they do or what they display. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:26:25 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OVMS Integrity BASIC LTU Getting only 1 user at cost of $2400.00??? Message-ID: <4920d64e$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >> From: Arne Vajhøj [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] >> Main, Kerry wrote: >>>> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >>>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>>> The SPD (Software Product Description) for HP BASIC is >>>>> reasonable clear on the licensing options. In IA64, the >>>>> "Concurrent Use License" is the only option available, >>>> Then $2400 for a single concurrent use is pretty expensive. >>>> >>>> I know that HP apologists will point to DSPP where compilers are dirt >>>> cheap. But for people who do development in-house, they don't qualify >>>> for DSPP and forcing them to pay those horrendous prices is not right. >>> So I guess the Enterprise Oracle licensing at $40K USD/cpu (not system) >>> or BEA at $10K per cpu must really upset you then? >>> >>> :-) >> That is for production server stuff. >> >> AFAIK then Oracle development tools are completely free. > > At the end of the day, its one Oracle bill for whoever is paying. It is often two bills going to different departments and different budgets (if not different companies). Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:40:59 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: strange disk state and corrupt new mail file Message-ID: <001279a4$0$9211$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> For the question "what could have caused this". user edits a file called "MAIL.MAI", types nothing in it and then saves it. it creates a sequential file MAIL.MAI;2 and from that point on, MAIL will try to write to ;2 and fail. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:50:18 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: strange disk state and corrupt new mail file Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > For the question "what could have caused this". > > user edits a file called "MAIL.MAI", types nothing in it and then saves > it. it creates a sequential file MAIL.MAI;2 and from that point on, MAIL > will try to write to ;2 and fail. Users! They are the bane of a system manager's existence! I worked, briefly, at Philadelphia College of Textiles and Science (now Philadelphia University). The students had to be told NOT to edit their directories! Somebody would edit his directory, save it, and presto; all his files were gone! Talk about clueless!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:48:37 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: strange disk state and corrupt new mail file Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >For the question "what could have caused this". I _vaguely_ remember reading how that if, for any reason, mail couldn't access a target user's MAIL.MAI file when attempting to deliver a message, it would create a new MAIL.MAI;2 (or ;whatever) and put the message there if successful. The MAIL> client program was smart enough to recognize this situation and consolidate both files into one so the user would probably never know. This _may_ be a partial explanation of what happened, but doesn't really answer why the file was empty or anything. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:35:01 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <0012783f$0$9211$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > HP has 320000 employees (per Wikipedia). > > A cut of 5-10% will mean 16000-32000 people. > > I have no idea about the size of VMS engineering, but > I am pretty sure that it is completely insignificant > compared to those numbers. When rounds of cuts start, this high management guys with power negotiate sweeter deals for their division in exchange for harsher cuts in some other division. So Stallard might negotiate a 5% cut for his strategic disk array unit, while having 35% cuts in the non strategic VMS (exageration here, just to make the point) Remember that HP's goal is to claim VMS is still being developped. Whether 8.4 comes out in 2008, 2009 or 2010 doesn't really change HP's abilities to claim VMS is still being developped. There is no competition for VMS. But there is competition for wintel boxes and for ink, so making cuts in those divisions would result in HP lagging behind competitors and losing its #1 position. Obviously, if demand for PCs and ink drops and they now only need 2 shifts at the assembly plants, then they can fire the 3rd shift. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:53:18 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: Hi Arne, > I think that is correct. > > Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement > boxes for existing systems. Ah, that would explain why Ann McQuaid's lackeys keep getting her to spend all of the development budget on pet projects that are obviously of no use to these "existing systems", whilst steadfastly refusing to provide the same loyal customers with the means of *integrating* these VMS systems into their web-facing architecture, or even just to upgrade/modernize these systems with a simple GUI. Yeah, makes perfect cents :-( > Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing > system will continue unless the company cease to exist. No, I think you'll find that many such systems are being turned-off (for the last time) quite regularly. If only VMS Middle-Management could be forced to disclose the attrition rate then the sheer magnitude of their failures and incompetence would be readily apparent. Regards Richard Maher PS. As for the original topic, I think the EDS acquisition will have a lot more affect than the recession; I guess the synergies are still percolating through. I'm sure they've heaps of talented individuals that like to get paid for doing nothing, or to get promoted for making the wrong decisions again and again and AGAIN! "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:491f8130$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > JF Mezei wrote: > > On the other hand, what is left of the VMS customer base is probably the > > type of company which survives bad economy cycles because those VMS > > boxes have been there for decades, so perhaps VMS revenus (outside of > > currency fluctuations) may be less affected than disposable wintel boxes > > that people will decide to keep an extra year or two instead of > > replacing every year. > > I think that is correct. > > Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement > boxes for existing systems. > > Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing > system will continue unless the company cease to exist. > > Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:20:16 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <4920d4dd$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> HP has 320000 employees (per Wikipedia). >> >> A cut of 5-10% will mean 16000-32000 people. >> >> I have no idea about the size of VMS engineering, but >> I am pretty sure that it is completely insignificant >> compared to those numbers. > > When rounds of cuts start, this high management guys with power > negotiate sweeter deals for their division in exchange for harsher cuts > in some other division. > > So Stallard might negotiate a 5% cut for his strategic disk array unit, > while having 35% cuts in the non strategic VMS (exageration here, just > to make the point) I doubt that even 35% of VMS engineering would have any significance in the numbers needed to make an impact on perception. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:24:54 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <4920d5f3$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard Maher wrote: >> I think that is correct. >> >> Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement >> boxes for existing systems. > > Ah, that would explain why Ann McQuaid's lackeys keep getting her to spend > all of the development budget on pet projects that are obviously of no use > to these "existing systems", whilst steadfastly refusing to provide the same > loyal customers with the means of *integrating* these VMS systems into their > web-facing architecture, or even just to upgrade/modernize these systems > with a simple GUI. > > Yeah, makes perfect cents :-( I guess it makes perfect sense for HP to invest in the pet projects they consider instead of the pet projects you consider useful. >> Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing >> system will continue unless the company cease to exist. > > No, I think you'll find that many such systems are being turned-off (for the > last time) quite regularly. The number of VMS systems are decreasing. But they are not easy targets for cost cuts, because 1) they are business critical 2) it takes time and cost money to migrate to another platform. If it was easy to move off VMS, then it probably would have been done already. Arne If only VMS Middle-Management could be forced to > disclose the attrition rate then the sheer magnitude of their failures and > incompetence would be readily apparent. > > Regards Richard Maher > > PS. As for the original topic, I think the EDS acquisition will have a lot > more affect than the recession; I guess the synergies are still percolating > through. I'm sure they've heaps of talented individuals that like to get > paid for doing nothing, or to get promoted for making the wrong decisions > again and again and AGAIN! > > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message > news:491f8130$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> On the other hand, what is left of the VMS customer base is probably the >>> type of company which survives bad economy cycles because those VMS >>> boxes have been there for decades, so perhaps VMS revenus (outside of >>> currency fluctuations) may be less affected than disposable wintel boxes >>> that people will decide to keep an extra year or two instead of >>> replacing every year. >> I think that is correct. >> >> Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement >> boxes for existing systems. >> >> Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing >> system will continue unless the company cease to exist. >> >> Arne > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:31:02 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <4920E576.EF878A21@spam.comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > > Richard Maher wrote: > >> I think that is correct. > >> > >> Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement > >> boxes for existing systems. > > > > Ah, that would explain why Ann McQuaid's lackeys keep getting her to spend > > all of the development budget on pet projects that are obviously of no use > > to these "existing systems", whilst steadfastly refusing to provide the same > > loyal customers with the means of *integrating* these VMS systems into their > > web-facing architecture, or even just to upgrade/modernize these systems > > with a simple GUI. > > > > Yeah, makes perfect cents :-( > > I guess it makes perfect sense for HP to invest in the pet projects > they consider instead of the pet projects you consider useful. Exactly the point. VMS development is being driven by something other than customer demand, as we have witnessed. Hence, VMS's slow demise, as we continue to witness. > >> Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing > >> system will continue unless the company cease to exist. > > > > No, I think you'll find that many such systems are being turned-off (for the > > last time) quite regularly. > > The number of VMS systems are decreasing. But they are not easy targets > for cost cuts, because 1) they are business critical Still replaceable. reference: the Healthcare market, formerly a staunch VMS stronghold, now being moved to (mostly non-HP) UN*X, thanx to HP. > 2) it takes time > and cost money to migrate to another platform. If it was easy to move > off VMS, then it probably would have been done already. It has been and is being done, even as you read this as healthcare sites abandon a platform no longer supported by the ISVs. The cost of transition is considered irrelevant compared to the risk of stagnating at the ISVs' last supported VMS releases. Sorry, "sunshine" - VMS's fate is all but sealed. D.J.D. - an eye-witness to VMS's slow, on-going demise ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:00:27 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <4920ec59$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> David J Dachtera wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Richard Maher wrote: >>>> I think that is correct. >>>> >>>> Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement >>>> boxes for existing systems. >>> Ah, that would explain why Ann McQuaid's lackeys keep getting her to spend >>> all of the development budget on pet projects that are obviously of no use >>> to these "existing systems", whilst steadfastly refusing to provide the same >>> loyal customers with the means of *integrating* these VMS systems into their >>> web-facing architecture, or even just to upgrade/modernize these systems >>> with a simple GUI. >>> >>> Yeah, makes perfect cents :-( >> I guess it makes perfect sense for HP to invest in the pet projects >> they consider instead of the pet projects you consider useful. > > Exactly the point. VMS development is being driven by something other > than customer demand, as we have witnessed. Hence, VMS's slow demise, as > we continue to witness. Not really my point. I am not convinced that VMS would be that much better of by pursuing Richards pet projects. >>>> Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing >>>> system will continue unless the company cease to exist. >>> No, I think you'll find that many such systems are being turned-off (for the >>> last time) quite regularly. >> The number of VMS systems are decreasing. But they are not easy targets >> for cost cuts, because 1) they are business critical > > Still replaceable. reference: the Healthcare market, formerly a staunch > VMS stronghold, now being moved to (mostly non-HP) UN*X, thanx to HP. > >> 2) it takes time >> and cost money to migrate to another platform. If it was easy to move >> off VMS, then it probably would have been done already. > > It has been and is being done, even as you read this as healthcare sites > abandon a platform no longer supported by the ISVs. The cost of > transition is considered irrelevant compared to the risk of stagnating > at the ISVs' last supported VMS releases. All true. But still not relevant for the context. When the the numbers go in red and the CIO needs to do something to improve next quarter, then starting a platform migration of some complex VMS systems is not the way to go. The recession is not going to accelerate the demise of VMS - it is much more likely going to slow it down. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:01:05 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: Hi, > I guess it makes perfect sense for HP to invest in the pet projects > they consider instead of the pet projects you consider useful. Arne, stop it or I'll bruise :-) Look, I'm not in a position to edit/massage/manipulate the data that get's presented to Ann (sourced from customer feedback reports from bootcamp or anywhere else) so let's leave the "What customers want" debate up in the air for the moment. Consider instead a couple of examples of what we know HP/VMS to have deigned "useful" in the not too distant past: - BridgeWorks (IIRC you're a big fan?) and SOAP/Toolkit. Tell us how bloody useful they were Arne, and what was the opportunity cost (let alone the dollar-cost) to a more deserving architecture(s)? The fact is *they* don't think anything they do is "useful" anymore, so they just spend their time trailing other peoples' technology at a distance of about 2-to-10 years, with crappy performance, and exponential cost. Now (after another, no expense spared, Cecil B Demille effort) we have WSIT and Axis2; so who the bloody hell is using them? (And will Java6 ever arrive on VMS?) But I'm sure you're right, HP must know best; VMS certainly didn't get where it is today by accident :-( As far as what *I* consider useful? Well Java/Applets, Adobe/Flex, and Microsoft/Silverlight, have all expressed more than a passing interest in the technology. (Not to mention WebSockets) But as witnessed in another thread here (that I will reply to :-) the prevailing Comet wisdom is to have one server-process per client; so 1000 clients produces 1000 VMS processes that do nothing much except page in and out now and then. So apparently you don't need Tier3 at all (with its silly application-specific min/max servers and idle-timeouts) just use INETd. TP Monitor technology is just another security-blanket for those who won't let go of the past. Embrace the world of Comet and just get a bigger cluster :-) Where *I* would use UDP and a common client-side Socket for the reception of asynchronous events pushed from any number of servers/processes, *they* would use a TCP/IP connection to a single process to overcome the asynchronous limitations of HTTP. Where *I* would use a connection-oriented, context-rich, TCP/IP Socket to under-pin my middleware backbone, *they* would use a context-devoid, session-hijackable, pile-of-pooh! I am clearly in the minority, so I must be wrong? > The number of VMS systems are decreasing. But they are not easy targets > for cost cuts, because 1) they are business critical 2) it takes time > and cost money to migrate to another platform. True, when the sums are done on how much it costs to replace these applications, it goes into the too-hard basket 9 times out of ten. But sadly, given enough time, it still happens. The progress may be glacial but it is unrelenting :-( If only they could *integrate* their VMS boxes, or at least put a GUI on them! Cheers Richard Maher PS. I bet you've really got the hots for Java 1.6_10 and thos Socket Policy Files! Cross-Domain access? Port-level granularity? Oooooohhh suites you Sir! PPS. I can't believe I didn't bring up that bollocks web-browser as another example of a pet-project gone mad! Oh well, too late. PPPS. You can't have too many IDEs - NetBeans, Eclipse, the more the merrier! And give another million to the gSOAP guys; Christmas partys are coming up! "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:4920d5f3$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > Richard Maher wrote: > >> I think that is correct. > >> > >> Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement > >> boxes for existing systems. > > > > Ah, that would explain why Ann McQuaid's lackeys keep getting her to spend > > all of the development budget on pet projects that are obviously of no use > > to these "existing systems", whilst steadfastly refusing to provide the same > > loyal customers with the means of *integrating* these VMS systems into their > > web-facing architecture, or even just to upgrade/modernize these systems > > with a simple GUI. > > > > Yeah, makes perfect cents :-( > > I guess it makes perfect sense for HP to invest in the pet projects > they consider instead of the pet projects you consider useful. > > >> Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing > >> system will continue unless the company cease to exist. > > > > No, I think you'll find that many such systems are being turned-off (for the > > last time) quite regularly. > > The number of VMS systems are decreasing. But they are not easy targets > for cost cuts, because 1) they are business critical 2) it takes time > and cost money to migrate to another platform. If it was easy to move > off VMS, then it probably would have been done already. > > Arne > > > > If only VMS Middle-Management could be forced to > > disclose the attrition rate then the sheer magnitude of their failures and > > incompetence would be readily apparent. > > > > Regards Richard Maher > > > > PS. As for the original topic, I think the EDS acquisition will have a lot > > more affect than the recession; I guess the synergies are still percolating > > through. I'm sure they've heaps of talented individuals that like to get > > paid for doing nothing, or to get promoted for making the wrong decisions > > again and again and AGAIN! > > > > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message > > news:491f8130$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > >> JF Mezei wrote: > >>> On the other hand, what is left of the VMS customer base is probably the > >>> type of company which survives bad economy cycles because those VMS > >>> boxes have been there for decades, so perhaps VMS revenus (outside of > >>> currency fluctuations) may be less affected than disposable wintel boxes > >>> that people will decide to keep an extra year or two instead of > >>> replacing every year. > >> I think that is correct. > >> > >> Most of the VMS revenue must come from support and replacement > >> boxes for existing systems. > >> > >> Given what VMS systems are usually used for, then those existing > >> system will continue unless the company cease to exist. > >> > >> Arne > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:46:16 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <000ce226$0$12300$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > I doubt that even 35% of VMS engineering would have any significance > in the numbers needed to make an impact on perception. It isn't a question of VMS cutbacks saving the rest of HP. But consider that each VMS employee layed off above the mandated average allows some employee elsewhere to stay. When you have a product which HP has decided has no growth prospect and wich has a downsizing customer base, it becomes much easier to shift staff reductions to it, allowing the better products to have lesser impact from the reductions. The problem is that when you already have small staffing levels, every individual being layed off starts to make a greater and greater negative impact. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:55:09 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <000ce446$0$12268$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Richard Maher wrote: > Look, I'm not in a position to edit/massage/manipulate the data that get's > presented to Ann (sourced from customer feedback reports from bootcamp or Has anyone ever managed to get Sue drunk (or slip her the data equivalent of date-rape drugs) so that she would start talking and spill the beans on what is *really* happening within HP ? We don't really know if Ann McQuaid is driving things, or just being a nice quiet sheep and taking orders from Stallard/Livermore without fighting back in order to preserve her job. Consider that even some of the VMS engineers who participated here last century did not see the usefulness of marketing/advertising. So it seems to me that there may be a strong cultural issue within the VMS group which accepts readily HP's decisions to not try to market VMS and not fight for advertising budgets. If the VMS group as a whole, has an image of not fighting back and just taking it, it becomes even easier for Stallard/Livermore to shift job cuts to VMS to reduce impact on the other departments. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.622 ************************