INFO-VAX Sun, 02 Nov 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 593 Contents: Re: Another DST issue Re: Bell Labs closes Re: Bell Labs closes Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations RE: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Seamonkey browser port for Alpha now available RE: Seamonkey browser port for Alpha now available ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 05:17:27 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Another DST issue Message-ID: On Oct 30, 7:01=A0pm, B...@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) wrote: > In article , Michael Moroney wrote: [...snip...] > > [...] > If you can take advantage of using UTC on the system, you might avoid the= se > problems. =A0Hoff has written a nice article: > > http://64.223.189.234/node/1111 > This is great advice if it can be implemented on your VMS system. And if you think about it, it makes no senses for computers to be changing their internal clocks twice a year. In an ideal world all the computers whould be synchronized to a common world clock then humans would see (if desired) time displayed based upon local user rules. One user might want to see EASTERN while another might want to see PACIFIC. Files created by each user would be stamped with the machine time but each user would see the file time-stamps in the timezone of their choice. BTW, this is how UNIX systems do it now. The machine timezone is defined in /etc/default/init (a.k.a. /etc/TIMEZONE) while the user timezone is defined by environment variable TZ. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 05:21:55 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes Message-ID: <93ca416a-0b0a-4e4a-8e55-2e526ea58e44@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com> On Nov 1, 9:48=A0pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > AEF wrote: > [...snip...] > > It may be prudent, at this juncture, to consider "The Serenity Prayer": > Lord, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage > to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. > > D.J.D. For a millisecond I thought this prayer had something to do with the SciFi movie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_(2005_film) NSR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 07:15:39 -0800 (PST) From: johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2:48 am, David J Dachtera wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > On Oct 27, 9:44 pm, David J Dachtera > > wrote: > > > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys...@spam.comcast.net] > > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 10:27 PM > > > > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > > > Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes > > > > > [snip] > > > > > Change for the sake of change rarely produces anything positive. > > > > > > Change where change is appropriate usually leads to a more desirable > > > > > result than the status quo. > > > > > Agreed - "planned" change is more desirable than "reactive" change. > > > > Planned or unplanned, the change has to make sense - not just be change > > > for the sake of change. > > > > > However, as the recent financial crisis has shown, sometimes there > > > > are things that happen that are totally out of your control. > > > > Well, be careful not to fall into the "victim" mentality there. When we > > > invest in stocks, etc., we make the conscious choice to accept certain > > > risks. In essence, we got what we bargained for - just perhaps more than > > > we expected. > > > His point stands: Regardless of whether you invest or not, the current > > financial crisis appears not to be in anyone's control! > > I didn't say otherwise. > > > Also: > > > There's a lot more to the current financial crisis than stockholders/ > > investors/whatever. > > > People who did everything right > > I'm still hearing the victim mentality coming through there. > > People expect their real estate to go up in value, and over the long > term this is generally - but not always (witness: California in the > 1980's, Louisiana in 2004) - true. > > Life, however, holds no such guarantees, as the residents of New Orleans > recently discovered. > > > are finding their home values go down > > because neighbors are experiencing foreclosure, e.g. I guess you > > should have checked your crystal ball to see this coming and not have > > bought your house in that neighborhood, or anywhere for that matter. > > I'm still hearing the victim mentality coming through there. > > As Kerry pointed out, precious few factors are actually within the > individual's control. > > > There could be bank failures. Guess you better buy lots of gold quick, > > guard it will, or keep your money in your mattress. > > I'm still hearing the victim mentality coming through there. > > When you place your money in a financial institution in search of > passive growth, you accept the risk that the institution may make > choices which are less than ideal and, regardless of the choices they > make, may produce undesirable results due to factors beyond their - and > your - control. > > As Kerry pointed out, precious few factors are actually within the > individual's control. > > > There could be increasing numbers of unemployed. Remember that > > unemployment peaked at 25% during the Great Depression. I guess you > > shouldn't have gotten a job: you risk losing it! > > [...] > > I'm still hearing the victim mentality coming through there. > > When you place control of your financial future in someone else's hands, > such as an employer, you accept the risk that the job may "disappear". > > As Kerry pointed out, precious few factors are actually within the > individual's control. > > "I made a bad choice - oh, poor me" doesn't help us to recover or move > on. > > It may be prudent, at this juncture, to consider "The Serenity Prayer": > Lord, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage > to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. > > D.J.D. OT but... what about when "industry professionals" take your money compulsorily and make bad choices on your behalf? In the UK, many people have pension schemes of one kind or another, because taxpayer-funded pensions are generally seen as a Bad Thing, other than the very basic state pension. Traditionally these company pensions have been based on your final salary but in recent years, industry insiders looking to get even bigger commissions and bonuses without the risks associated with poor performance have been promoting "money purchase" pensions (which are about to be revealed as yet another financial sector disaster). In either case the employer takes the money (its effectively deferred wages, but with alleged tax benefits) and invests it wherever the pension scheme advisers see fit (the scheme members have no real say in where their money goes). Regardless of whether a scheme is "final salary" or "money purchase", those schemes whose investment performance is matching the FTSE 100 (which seems like a fair benchmark) are currently looking at an investment pot which has recently fallen to the value it had TEN YEARS AGO. What was the point of the professional advice? That's people's retirement years these guys have stolen, 'cos Joe Public isn't going to be able to retire when he had hoped (and meanwhile unemployment is going up anyway). The ordinary worker would have done better putting the money in a plain ordinary SAFE building society deposit account (= US S&L, but without the scandals?), but the rules meant that we weren't offered the choice. Maybe in return for what the pensions advisers have "achieved", the advisers should refund their bonuses in order to fund employees getting say 5% (typical pension contribution) time off without loss of pay? Oh, and don't even *start* on "Lord" Digby Jones and the CBI and "pension holidays". Someone's been getting rich, some folks are going to carry on getting rich, but Joe Public is going to come out of this a lot worse off, as are his/her children and their children's children. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:29:13 -0800 (PST) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: On 1 nov, 23:55, Michael Kraemer wrote: > H Vlems schrieb: > > > One of my VAXstation 4000-90A's has 128 MB main memory. Which is its > > configuration maximum IIRC. > > Mine too. And yes, it maxes out at 128MB. But that was > an impressive (and expensive) amount of memory back then. That is absolutely true Michael, When hardware prices wouldn't have come down as they have then we'd all be running SIMH.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:38:20 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:36:13 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: >> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:00:33 -0700, FrankS wrote: >> >>> On Oct 31, 9:15 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>> wrote: >>>> I don't know of ANY VAX that actually supported four GB of memory.  I >>>> don't recall the largest VAX memory I ever encountered but I doubt if >>>> it >>>> was more than 128 MB. >>> >>> I have a client with VAX 6000 series that contain 1.25gb of memory. I >>> was at the Sungard facility in PA this past week and they have a VAX >>> 7630s with over 2gb+ installed. The spec for the VAX 7000 says 3.5gb >>> maximum. >> >> Just curious why they continue running theses as opposed to, say, ES47? > > > Perhaps because an ES47 is an Alpha and not a VAX? Well, I thinkl you know what I meant, i.e., what specifically was missing precluding a port. For example one space mission that I am familiar with written in PL/I requires H-Float. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:58:57 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <00A82051.B459084E@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:36:13 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > >> In article , "Tom Linden" >> writes: >>> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:00:33 -0700, FrankS wrote: >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 9:15 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>>> wrote: >>>>> I don't know of ANY VAX that actually supported four GB of memory.  I >>>>> don't recall the largest VAX memory I ever encountered but I doubt if >>>>> it >>>>> was more than 128 MB. >>>> >>>> I have a client with VAX 6000 series that contain 1.25gb of memory. I >>>> was at the Sungard facility in PA this past week and they have a VAX >>>> 7630s with over 2gb+ installed. The spec for the VAX 7000 says 3.5gb >>>> maximum. >>> >>> Just curious why they continue running theses as opposed to, say, ES47? >> >> >> Perhaps because an ES47 is an Alpha and not a VAX? > >Well, I thinkl you know what I meant, i.e., what specifically was missing >precluding a port. For example one space mission that I am familiar with >written in PL/I requires H-Float. BINGO! There still are sites that have not bothered to port their apps to Alpha or Itanium. If H-float is needed, I'd wager that a library could be developed to provide it and, on faster hardware, it may even best perform- ance on VAX. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:03:37 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <00A82052.5B4D36D1@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <490ca76d$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >JF Mezei wrote: >> At the opposite scale of things... >> >> I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg drive to >> support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead the >> MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. >> >> This was circa 1987. > >And today a single word processing user is using a PC >with 4 MB L2 cache, 2 GB RAM and 320 GB disk ... Isn't Billzebub's bloatware just wonderful? Micro$oft... ... keeping Moore's Law in check by several factors for over 20 years! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:21:38 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED842492B@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiByZGU0MkBzcGFtY29wLm5ldCBb bWFpbHRvOnJkZTQyQHNwYW1jb3AubmV0XQ0KPiBTZW50OiBTYXR1cmRheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMDEs IDIwMDggMzozMSBQTQ0KPiBUbzogSW5mby1WQVhATXZiLlNhaWMuQ29tDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJl OiBNb3N0IGltcHJlc3NpdmUgVkFYIGluc3RhbGxhdGlvbnMNCj4NCj4gT24gU2F0LCAxIE5vdiAy MDA4IDE4OjMxOjU0IFVUQywgSkYgTWV6ZWkNCj4gPGpmbWV6ZWkuc3BhbW5vdEB2YXhpbmF0aW9u LmNhPiB3cm90ZToNCj4NCj4gPiBBdCB0aGUgb3Bwb3NpdGUgc2NhbGUgb2YgdGhpbmdzLi4uDQo+ ID4NCj4gPiBJIHJhbiBhbiBhbGwgbWlnaHR5IE1pY3JvdmF4IDIgd2l0aCA4IG1lZ3Mgb2YgUkFN IGFuZCBhIDE1NG1lZyBkcml2ZQ0KPiB0bw0KPiA+IHN1cHBvcnQgOCB1c2VycyBydW5pbmcgV1BT LVBsdXMuIFRoZSBzdWNjZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBwcm9qZWN0IGxlYWQgdGhlDQo+ID4gTVZJSSB0byBi ZSB1cGdyYWRlZCB0byAxNiBtZWcgb2YgUkFNIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgMTIgdXNlcnMuDQo+ID4NCj4g PiBUaGlzIHdhcyBjaXJjYSAxOTg3Lg0KPg0KPiBJbXByZXNzaXZlLCBidXQgbG9vayBiYWNrIGFu ZCByZWFkIHdoYXQgT1MvOCB3YXMgYWJsZSB0byBkbyENCg0KT2ssIHdhciBzdG9yeSB0aW1lIC4u Oi0pDQoNCkkgcmVtZW1iZXIgY2FycnlpbmcgYSB0b29sIGJhZyB3aXRoIGEgc2NvcGUgYW5kIGlu c3RhbGxpbmcgdGhlIGZpcnN0DQpERjMyIGRpc2sgZHJpdmUgaW4gb3VyIGFyZWEgLSAzMksgd29y ZHMgb2YgbWVtb3J5LiBJIHJlbWVtYmVyIHVzIGFsbA0Kam9raW5nIGFib3V0IHdoYXQgYSB3YXN0 ZSB0aGlzIHdhcyBhcyB3aG8gd291bGQgZXZlciB1c2UgMzJLdyBvZiBtZW1vcnk/DQoNCkNvdXJz ZSwgYXQgdGhlIHRpbWUsIG1hbnkgUERQOCdzIGhhZCBlaXRoZXIgYSA0SyBvciA4SyBtZW1vcnkg c3lzdGVtLg0KDQpOb3cgYmFjayB0byB0aGUgcHJlc2VudC4uLg0KDQo6LSkNCg0KUmVnYXJkcw0K DQpLZXJyeSBNYWluDQpTZW5pb3IgQ29uc3VsdGFudA0KSFAgU2VydmljZXMgQ2FuYWRhDQpWb2lj ZTogNjEzLTI1NC04OTExDQpGYXg6IDYxMy01OTEtNDQ3Nw0Ka2VycnlET1RtYWluQVRocERPVGNv bQ0KKHJlbW92ZSB0aGUgRE9UJ3MgYW5kIEFUKQ0KDQpPcGVuVk1TIC0gdGhlIHNlY3VyZSwgbXVs dGktc2l0ZSBPUyB0aGF0IGp1c3Qgd29ya3MuDQoNCg0KDQoNCg== ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 2008 11:44:00 +0100 From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, DTI Athis ex CENA, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40) Subject: Re: Seamonkey browser port for Alpha now available Message-ID: <61OCvSXUzIA3@sinead> I've installed Seamonkey under VMS 8.3 at home. I backuped my profile (_MOZILLA directory) and the old SYS$COMMON:[CSWB] directory to be able to use the "old" Mozilla (1.7-3). First try without installing the images with @SSYS$COMMON:[CSWB]INSTALL (and with old images desinstalled after a reboot, I like clean systems before a try). Navigator OK, but Mail and News not (folders not displaying, etc ...). After installing images, all seems OK now, Seamonkey is quota hungry :-). Only problem (not really), mail is rather slow and seems to trash the disk each time you read a mail (and I have fast disk, a 72 Gb U160). I suppose its some debug mode active in the test version. I suppose it wil be ok in the official version. Otherwise, its great. Thanks HP folks !! Patrick -- =============================================================================== patrick.moreau@aviation-civile.gouv.fr DSNA/DTI/EOS (ex SDER/CENA) ______ ___ _ Pôle XPE / / / / /| /| Athis-Mons France / /___/ / / | / | __ __ __ __ BP 205 / / / / |/ | | | |__| |__ |__| | | 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX / / :: / / | |__| | \ |__ | | |__| http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/ http://membres.lycos.fr/pmoreau/ =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:26:16 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Seamonkey browser port for Alpha now available Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED8424928@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick MOREAU, DTI Athis ex CENA, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40 > [mailto:pmoreau@ath.cena.fr] > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 5:44 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Seamonkey browser port for Alpha now available > > I've installed Seamonkey under VMS 8.3 at home. I backuped my profile > (_MOZILLA > directory) and the old SYS$COMMON:[CSWB] directory to be able to use > the "old" > Mozilla (1.7-3). > > First try without installing the images with @SSYS$COMMON:[CSWB]INSTALL > (and > with old images desinstalled after a reboot, I like clean systems > before a try). > > Navigator OK, but Mail and News not (folders not displaying, etc ...). > > After installing images, all seems OK now, Seamonkey is quota hungry :- > ). > > Only problem (not really), mail is rather slow and seems to trash the > disk each > time you read a mail (and I have fast disk, a 72 Gb U160). I suppose > its some > debug mode active in the test version. I suppose it wil be ok in the > official > version. > > Otherwise, its great. > > Thanks HP folks !! > > Patrick > -- Fwiw, and I am not sure if this is the case with Seamonkey beta, but in most cases beta sw is loaded with debug code that makes the overall performance slower. Focus is usually first on functionality and then performance later in the beta cycle (close to prod). Hence, one always needs to take testing of beta SW of any SW product for performance comparisons with a grain of salt as they say. Reminds me of the Word version Microsoft created for the Alpha NT Platform many moons ago. It was quite a bit faster than the equivalent X86 prod with Word on it at the time, so that was seen as a good thing. Yes, it was good, but Microsoft never removed the debug code from the Prod release of the Word on Alpha NT prod, hence it was even better than what was perceived.[They never did release a Alpha NT Word version without the debug code loaded] Ah well .. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.593 ************************