INFO-VAX Fri, 26 Sep 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 520 Contents: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Re: New multibrowser exploit; VMS Mozilla or Mosaic may also be affected affecte Re: OpenVMS and Oracle 10.2.0.4.0 Re: OpenVMS and Oracle 10.2.0.4.0 Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts RE: SSH break-in attempts RE: SSH break-in attempts Re: Text file generated by a Cobol application Re: VMS831H1I_UPDATE V2.0 v. zx2000: [SYS$LDR]UPDATE-V0200_FAIL_SYS$EFI.BAK Re: What creates .RND files? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:47:05 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Message-ID: Hein wrote: - > Bollocks. (sorry, 'been in London for a week :-) Hey, steady on! Cheers Richard Maher PS. How was it? I bet it was dank, wet, and miserable - yet so alive. "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" wrote in message news:b037c2f5-033c-483d-b47f-c9c0c7d7a7a6@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com... On Sep 25, 2:48 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Simon Clubley wrote: > > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> Please remember that DCL IS a Command Line Interpreter and NOT really a > >> programming language! Exactly. It should be just interpretting my command and yet it does not know how to when I need a minor correction. >I know it has been used to write applications but > >> it's certainly not the primary purpose. Beg to differ!! > There are certainly better > >> tools available for writing most applications. Who is talking applications? I'm being hindered by this issue using straight simple commands like "edit/fdl/nointeractive/analy=xx.fdl_analysis_nodex_20080808/ output=yy.fdl_tuned yy.fdl_design while cutting and pasting half decent self explanatory file specs. Ditto for many a backup, link and pipe command. > DCL and the terminal driver are behaving as documented. And it is broken... as documented > It has been this way since I came on board in 1984. Yes, it has been broken for ever and OpenVMS Engineering has been too lame to fix it while they still had the resources to do so. > I see no need to "fix" what isn't broken. It's broken. It's badly broken. It hurts my ability to work well on OpenVMS. It suckz. Windows CMD does a better job. HPux does a better job. I had a 'notepad' handyn with half command lines to cut & paste from to glue together long commands. > If you REALLY need to type, and edit, command lines longer than 132 > characters, please feel free to write your own terminal driver, CLI, Bollocks. (sorry, 'been in London for a week :-) 132+ chars happens all the time. Fess'up! > etc. I think you'll find it MUCH easier to put such things in a .COM > file, edit that file until you get it right and then execute them from > the file. No As much as like command files, temporary command files are no solution. IMHO. Any half decent 'pipe' command or perl 'one liner' bangs into this short sighted restriction. The only workaround is to cut and paste snippets of valid command line around the bend. Lame! And didn't you just yourself a couple replies earlier write it is a command interpreter, and "I know it has been used to write applications but it's certainly not the primary purpose. " Sticking a command into a command file just about makes it into an application... imho. fwiw, Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 05:28:31 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Enhancing DCL, was: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long Message-ID: On Sep 24, 4:47=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , clubley@remove_me.eis= ner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > [...] > > > No way to search the help library. (Yes, I know that's not really a bas= h > > function, but on VMS, HELP is considered to be part of DCL.) > > =A0 =A0With hierachical help, searching is not as often needed. =A0I find > =A0 =A0VMS HELP much easier than man -k when I need to find something and > =A0 =A0don't know where it is. =A0I keep trying to learn "info" for just > =A0 =A0that reason. I actually created a list file using HELP /OUT=3DHELP.LIS *...! and you can search that, but I rarely use it. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: New multibrowser exploit; VMS Mozilla or Mosaic may also be affected affecte Message-ID: On Sep 25, 6:31=A0pm, c...@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) wrote: > In article <40222745-a287-4ba9-9a9f-1467d3244...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups= .com>, Rich Jordan writes: > > > > > Its currently called "Clickjacking" and basically means if you end up > > on a compromised or malicious page, "you" can be forced to "click" on > > any link on that page without your intervention, and even without you > > seeing it happen. > > >http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=3D1972 > > > Also a note from someone who works on NoScript for Firefox > > >http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=3D1973 > > > Details are not disclosed, but its being described as very bad. =A0All > > current major browsers are impacted (excluding Lynx!). =A0Javascript is > > not involved. > > > Until more details are released, or until a 'test site' is made > > available, there's no way to know for sure if Mozilla or Mosaic on VMS > > is affected. =A0If it is... well I wonder how that long rumored Firefox > > port is coming along... > > VMS Mosaic doesn't support DHTML which appears to be a requirement for > the exploits. =A0Mosaic also doesn't support scripting or plugins. =A0If > Lynx is okay, then Mosaic should be okay unless there is some exploit > involving refresh URLs (the only case where Mosaic "clicks" on its own). > > George Cook > WVNET Thanks for the info, George. Its good to know. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 05:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: RobbieH Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Oracle 10.2.0.4.0 Message-ID: <6f2db210-ca56-4a70-a066-65b631c8197d@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 25, 9:22=A0pm, RobbieH wrote: > On Sep 24, 10:21=A0pm, RobbieH wrote: > > > > > > > On Sep 24, 2:01=A0pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I've been told (a couple of weeks ago) by an Oracle support person th= at OEM > > > grid control for Itanium would be available last week... > > > It was promised to me at least twice in the past year, so I hope this= is > > > true now. My feeling is that it will be, as they have a date, not jus= t an > > > estimate. > > > > As for 10.2.0.4 I don't know. I hope to get it soon too. > > > > If you write to Kevin Duffy, can you post the answer here ? > > > > Thanks > > > Syltrem > > > > wrote in message > > > >news:fe2a785c-6541-4bf2-8bd1-8182138a32ed@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com= ... > > > > > I've been told by Oracle that the terminal releasepatchset10.2.0.4.= 0 > > > > will be available by the end of October AND that the Itanium 10.2 G= rid > > > > Control agent will be available in the next couple of weeks. Can > > > > anyone confirm I'm not being spun the typical Oracle VMS yarn. I've > > > > had these messages in the past but nothing ever emerges.- Hide quot= ed text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > What was interesting about the Grid Agent was that Oracle support said > > that it was due to be uploaded to their website last weekend, but due > > to a technical fault wasn't... this is probably cos they upgraded > > metalink. I'll look at emailing this chap tomorrow.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Friends, exciting news! The grid control agent is available for > download here :http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/oem/htd= ocs/agentso... > > Just waiting for thepatchsetand 11GR2 now as apparently they are > skipping 11GR1 for OpenVMS due to "OpenVMS Customers reluctance to > upgrade to the dot one version" =A0I'm not sure thats true. > > So when's 11GR2 out...?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Anyone managed to install and get this working yet??? My script is: $ define ORA_BATCH_QUEUE_EGTD03 ORA_GRID_BATCH $ define ORA_AUTO_INSORACLE "TRUE" $ define EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_LEVEL 1 $ ! This is so EMAGENT_PERL.TRC file gets written $ define EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_DIR - "/DISK$TSOFTWARE/oracle10g/gridcontrol/egtd03/sysman/log" $ ! Unix format $ @DISK$TSOFTWARE:[oracle10g.gridcontrol]orauser.com $ $ emctl config agent updateTZ $ emctl start agent $ $ exit but when you try and start it I get: %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of ORA_BATCH_QUEUE_EGTD03 has been superseded %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of ORA_AUTO_INSORACLE has been superseded %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_LEVEL has been superseded %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_DIR has been superseded Setting up ORACLE runtime environment... client_only install ORACLE runtime environment setup completed. %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of PERL_ROOT has been superseded %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of PERLSHR has been superseded Oracle Enterprise Manager 10g Release 10.2.0.2.0. Copyright (c) 1996, 2006 Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved. Oracle Enterprise Manager 10g Release 10.2.0.2.0. Copyright (c) 1996, 2006 Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved. Error connecting to http://egtd03:1830/emd/main Starting agent ... Timeout waiting for the agent process ORA_EMD_EGTD03 to start EMAgent is NOT running And the script finishes. at first it was saying " ORA_ROOT: [LIB]ORA_JAVA_VMS_SHR.EXE not available for install" so I copied this from my RDBMS Oracle Home. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:46:44 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Oracle 10.2.0.4.0 Message-ID: RobbieH wrote: > On Sep 25, 9:22 pm, RobbieH wrote: >> On Sep 24, 10:21 pm, RobbieH wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 24, 2:01 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: >>>> Hi >>>> I've been told (a couple of weeks ago) by an Oracle support person that OEM >>>> grid control for Itanium would be available last week... >>>> It was promised to me at least twice in the past year, so I hope this is >>>> true now. My feeling is that it will be, as they have a date, not just an >>>> estimate. >>>> As for 10.2.0.4 I don't know. I hope to get it soon too. >>>> If you write to Kevin Duffy, can you post the answer here ? >>>> Thanks >>>> Syltrem >>>> wrote in message >>>> news:fe2a785c-6541-4bf2-8bd1-8182138a32ed@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >>>>> I've been told by Oracle that the terminal releasepatchset10.2.0.4.0 >>>>> will be available by the end of October AND that the Itanium 10.2 Grid >>>>> Control agent will be available in the next couple of weeks. Can >>>>> anyone confirm I'm not being spun the typical Oracle VMS yarn. I've >>>>> had these messages in the past but nothing ever emerges.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> What was interesting about the Grid Agent was that Oracle support said >>> that it was due to be uploaded to their website last weekend, but due >>> to a technical fault wasn't... this is probably cos they upgraded >>> metalink. I'll look at emailing this chap tomorrow.- Hide quoted text - >>> - Show quoted text - >> Friends, exciting news! The grid control agent is available for >> download here :http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/oem/htdocs/agentso... >> >> Just waiting for thepatchsetand 11GR2 now as apparently they are >> skipping 11GR1 for OpenVMS due to "OpenVMS Customers reluctance to >> upgrade to the dot one version" I'm not sure thats true. >> >> So when's 11GR2 out...?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > > > Anyone managed to install and get this working yet??? > > My script is: > $ define ORA_BATCH_QUEUE_EGTD03 ORA_GRID_BATCH > $ define ORA_AUTO_INSORACLE "TRUE" > $ define EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_LEVEL 1 > $ ! This is so EMAGENT_PERL.TRC file gets written > $ define EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_DIR - > "/DISK$TSOFTWARE/oracle10g/gridcontrol/egtd03/sysman/log" > $ ! Unix format > $ @DISK$TSOFTWARE:[oracle10g.gridcontrol]orauser.com > $ > $ emctl config agent updateTZ > $ emctl start agent > $ > $ exit > > > but when you try and start it I get: > > > %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of ORA_BATCH_QUEUE_EGTD03 has been > superseded > %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of ORA_AUTO_INSORACLE has been > superseded > %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_LEVEL has been > superseded > %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of EMAGENT_PERL_TRACE_DIR has been > superseded > Setting up ORACLE runtime environment... > client_only install > ORACLE runtime environment setup completed. > %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of PERL_ROOT has been superseded > %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of PERLSHR has been superseded > Oracle Enterprise Manager 10g Release 10.2.0.2.0. > Copyright (c) 1996, 2006 Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved. > Oracle Enterprise Manager 10g Release 10.2.0.2.0. > Copyright (c) 1996, 2006 Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved. > Error connecting to http://egtd03:1830/emd/main > Starting agent ... > Timeout waiting for the agent process ORA_EMD_EGTD03 to start > EMAgent is NOT running > > > And the script finishes. at first it was saying " ORA_ROOT: > [LIB]ORA_JAVA_VMS_SHR.EXE not available for install" so I copied this > from my RDBMS Oracle Home. Are you sure the ORA* logicals shouldn't be /SYSTEM ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 04:43:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 25, 8:38=A0pm, AEF wrote: > On Sep 25, 6:43 pm, AEF wrote: > > Uh, you can get a lot more science from unmanned probes, though the > moon rocks were rather useful, but expensive. Also, Hubble was worth > it, IMO. But going to the moon is expensive and we already have some > moon rocks. Going further to Mars? Talk about expensive! (And that > leaves out all the other major obstacles and risk.) > > AEF- Hide quoted text - > Adding to your points, look at how much science is coming from Spirit and Opportunity. A manned mission to MARS would have been limited to the amount of time men could survive there (as well as the orbital positions or Earth and Mars). Spirit and Opportunity were designed to last 3 months but are now into their 4 year. The volume of science from Hubble is embarrassingly huge. Hubble is probably the most productive scientific experiment ever built and given humanity the enigma of "dark energy" and, to a lesser extent, "dark matter". (FYI: the beginnings of "dark matter" come from Fritz Zwicky in 1933 and Vera Rubin in 1970) On the flip-side, I would like to see a permanent manned base on the moon (which is only 3 days away if a rescue is required; While machines will always be able to deliver more science for the invseted dollor, there is something compelling about a permanent human lunar settlement. Also, building really large optical observatories (mirrors could be manufactured "up there") is one possibility; large radio telescopes on the dark side of the moon (shielded from Earth) is another possibility. Unlike the ISS, a lunar observatory would yield a larger volume of science. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 2008 11:58:53 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6k413sF61advU3@mid.individual.net> In article <8d847f92-1f04-47ed-a827-bae920245111@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Sep 25, 8:58 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, >>         AEF writes: >> >> >> >> > On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> In article , >> >>         hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >> >> >> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu >> >> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >> >> Yes, he did.  Mere days before sighting land.  And at a point where he >> >> >> had actually travelled less than half the distance any educated person >> >> >> of the time would have known it would take to reach the far east while >> >> >> traveling in that direction.  Contrary to popular belief no educated >> >> >> person of the time aactually thought the earth was flat.  The ancient >> >> >> greeks had determined it was round and had done a pretty good job of >> >> >> computing it's circumferance.  So, based on the amount of rations >> >> >> Columbus left Spain with and the knowledge he is known to have had >> >> >> (and some he is suspected to have had) it becomes obvious that "The >> >> >> Far East" was never his target because assuming an all sea route in a >> >> >> westerly direction, he left with insuffucient rations to make the trip. >> >> >> > Columbus used a smaller value for the circumference of the Earth than >> >> > the correct value, >> >> >> Smaller is an understatement as he missed it by more than 50%.  A >> >> navigator who made mistakes like that would hardly have lasted as >> >> long as he had or had a reputaion supposedly as good as his. >> >> >> >                      even though other folks at the time had something >> >> > quite close to the correct value. >> >> >> At the time?  Try more than 1400 years earlier. >> >> > Why does this matter? >> >> >> >                                    Was this intentional on his part to >> >> > make his plans sound more realistic, or did he really believe in the >> >> > smaller value? >> >> >> Or did he have pre-knowledge of the existence of the North and South >> >> American (although obviously not under that name) continents and merely >> >> bilked Ferdinand and Isabella into financing his boondogle to se what >> >> was there!! >> >> > Or did he prefer dogs or cats? This is pure speculation. Maybe he did? >> > Maybe not. Is there any evidence at all to make what you suspect >> > plausible? >> >> The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south >> america.  The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of >> the earth.  The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that >> destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling west. >> Looks kinda like simple math to add them  up.  You do realize that >> Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle.  Others, >> refused. > CBS refused Star Trek in favor of Lost in Space! Isn't that like being offered a bag of horse manure or a bag of cow manure? > So what great riches was he hoping to find in the Americas? Actually, I don't think greed was his motive. I believe he wanted to discover and explore a place he knew his European counterparts had never seen. But no one was going to finance that. So he made up a an absurd theory about reaching India and bilked Spain into financing it. And got called a hero for his effort. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:07:58 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 26, 7:43 am, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Sep 25, 8:38 pm, AEF wrote: > > > On Sep 25, 6:43 pm, AEF wrote: > > > Uh, you can get a lot more science from unmanned probes, though the > > moon rocks were rather useful, but expensive. Also, Hubble was worth > > it, IMO. But going to the moon is expensive and we already have some > > moon rocks. Going further to Mars? Talk about expensive! (And that > > leaves out all the other major obstacles and risk.) > > > AEF- Hide quoted text - > > Adding to your points, look at how much science is coming from Spirit > and Opportunity. A manned mission to MARS would have been limited to > the amount of time men could survive there (as well as the orbital > positions or Earth and Mars). Spirit and Opportunity were designed to > last 3 months but are now into their 4 year. You know, to be honest, I'm beginning to think that these estimates of the lifetime of space stuff are deliberately and grossly underestimated. Then they can say, "Look, it was only supposed to last for. . . ." > > The volume of science from Hubble is embarrassingly huge. Hubble is > probably the most productive scientific experiment ever built and > given humanity the enigma of "dark energy" and, to a lesser extent, > "dark matter". (FYI: the beginnings of "dark matter" come from Fritz > Zwicky in 1933 and Vera Rubin in 1970) > > On the flip-side, I would like to see a permanent manned base on the > moon (which is only 3 days away if a rescue is required; While > machines will always be able to deliver more science for the invseted > dollor, there is something compelling about a permanent human lunar > settlement. Also, building really large optical observatories (mirrors > could be manufactured "up there") is one possibility; large radio > telescopes on the dark side of the moon (shielded from Earth) is > another possibility. Unlike the ISS, a lunar observatory would yield a > larger volume of science. The only problem with this is that for the same cost you could do a LOT more unmanned stuff. But Hubble is the counterexample. Also, I remember reading a sci-fi story about doing astronomy on the moon with someone saying something like, "I can't imagine how astronomy ever got started on Earth with all that atmospheric distortion." But I don't know if this would be any better than the Hubble. AEF > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:34:44 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 26, 7:58=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <8d847f92-1f04-47ed-a827-bae920245...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups= .com>, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > > > > On Sep 25, 8:58=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b...@r66g2000hsg.googlegro= ups.com>, > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF writes: > > >> > On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> >> In article , > >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---r= emove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > >> >> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.= edu > >> >> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >> >> >> Yes, he did. =A0Mere days before sighting land. =A0And at a poin= t where he > >> >> >> had actually travelled less than half the distance any educated = person > >> >> >> of the time would have known it would take to reach the far east= while > >> >> >> traveling in that direction. =A0Contrary to popular belief no ed= ucated > >> >> >> person of the time aactually thought the earth was flat. =A0The = ancient > >> >> >> greeks had determined it was round and had done a pretty good jo= b of > >> >> >> computing it's circumferance. =A0So, based on the amount of rati= ons The Egyptians figured out a way to mummify their dead Pharoahs, but does anyone know it? Just because a people figured out something long ago, that doesn't mean it's still known centuries later. > >> >> >> Columbus left Spain with and the knowledge he is known to have h= ad > >> >> >> (and some he is suspected to have had) it becomes obvious that "= The > >> >> >> Far East" was never his target because assuming an all sea route= in a > >> >> >> westerly direction, he left with insuffucient rations to make th= e trip. > > >> >> > Columbus used a smaller value for the circumference of the Earth = than > >> >> > the correct value, > > >> >> Smaller is an understatement as he missed it by more than 50%. =A0A > >> >> navigator who made mistakes like that would hardly have lasted as > >> >> long as he had or had a reputaion supposedly as good as his. > > >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0even though other folk= s at the time had something > >> >> > quite close to the correct value. > > >> >> At the time? =A0Try more than 1400 years earlier. > > >> > Why does this matter? Because people forget. See above. > > >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0Was this intentional on his part to > >> >> > make his plans sound more realistic, or did he really believe in = the > >> >> > smaller value? > > >> >> Or did he have pre-knowledge of the existence of the North and Sout= h > >> >> American (although obviously not under that name) continents and me= rely > >> >> bilked Ferdinand and Isabella into financing his boondogle to se wh= at > >> >> was there!! Or did he want what was behind the box next to the beautiful Carol Maryl? > > >> > Or did he prefer dogs or cats? This is pure speculation. Maybe he di= d? > >> > Maybe not. Is there any evidence at all to make what you suspect > >> > plausible? > > >> The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south > >> america. =A0The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of > >> the earth. =A0The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that > >> destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling wes= t. > >> Looks kinda like simple math to add them =A0up. =A0You do realize that > >> Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. =A0Other= s, > >> refused. > > CBS refused Star Trek in favor of Lost in Space! > > Isn't that like being offered a bag of horse manure or a bag of cow manur= e? Nope, and it's your loss. > > > So what great riches was he hoping to find in the Americas? > > Actually, I don't think greed was his motive. =A0I believe he wanted to > discover and explore a place he knew his European counterparts had never > seen. =A0But no one was going to finance that. =A0So he made up a an absu= rd > theory about reaching India and bilked Spain into financing it. =A0And > got called a hero for his effort. Well, I meant motive. Fine, so Bob K. came up with a poor example in your opinion. That doesn't necessarily invalidate his point, and I believe he had another example. Let's move on already. AEF > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. = =A0Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton =A0 | > Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include = =A0 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:38:54 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <069494b2-be41-4932-8dc2-12a9ea79539a@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Sep 26, 10:24=A0am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , Neil Rieck writes: > > >On Sep 25, 8:38=3DA0pm, AEF wrote: > >> On Sep 25, 6:43 pm, AEF wrote: > > >> Uh, you can get a lot more science from unmanned probes, though the > >> moon rocks were rather useful, but expensive. Also, Hubble was worth > >> it, IMO. But going to the moon is expensive and we already have some > >> moon rocks. Going further to Mars? Talk about expensive! (And that > >> leaves out all the other major obstacles and risk.) > > >> AEF- Hide quoted text - > > >Adding to your points, look at how much science is coming from Spirit > >and Opportunity. A manned mission to MARS would have been limited to > >the amount of time men could survive there (as well as the orbital > >positions or Earth and Mars). Spirit and Opportunity were designed to > >last 3 months but are now into their 4 year. > > Most of the ideas from Mars Direct onwards for missions to Mars have invo= lved > the crew spending at least 18 months on the surface of Mars. > > > > >The volume of science from Hubble is embarrassingly huge. Hubble is > >probably the most productive scientific experiment ever built and > >given humanity the enigma of "dark energy" and, to a lesser extent, > >"dark matter". (FYI: the beginnings of "dark matter" come from Fritz > >Zwicky in 1933 and Vera Rubin in 1970) > > >On the flip-side, I would like to see a permanent manned base on the > >moon (which is only 3 days away if a rescue is required; While > >machines will always be able to deliver more science for the invseted > >dollor, there is something compelling about a permanent human lunar > >settlement. Also, building really large optical observatories (mirrors > >could be manufactured "up there") is one possibility; large radio > >telescopes on the dark side of the moon (shielded from Earth) is > >another possibility. Unlike the ISS, a lunar observatory would yield a > >larger volume of science. > > I totally agree about a manned base on the Moon but think human explorati= on of > Mars (and a permanent settlement there) is entirley feasible and worthwhi= le. But the ISS has already cost what? Over $20 billion? And you want to go to Mars? Well, the LHC is certainly a bargain compared to either of these! > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > >Neil Rieck > >Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > >Ontario, Canada. > >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > > ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 2008 16:17:21 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6k4g8gF62v4fU1@mid.individual.net> In article , AEF writes: > On Sep 26, 7:58 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <8d847f92-1f04-47ed-a827-bae920245...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, >>         AEF writes: >> >> >> >> > On Sep 25, 8:58 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, >> >>         AEF writes: >> >> >> > On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> >> In article , >> >> >>         hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >> >> >> >> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu >> >> >> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >> >> >> Yes, he did.  Mere days before sighting land.  And at a point where he >> >> >> >> had actually travelled less than half the distance any educated person >> >> >> >> of the time would have known it would take to reach the far east while >> >> >> >> traveling in that direction.  Contrary to popular belief no educated >> >> >> >> person of the time aactually thought the earth was flat.  The ancient >> >> >> >> greeks had determined it was round and had done a pretty good job of >> >> >> >> computing it's circumferance.  So, based on the amount of rations > The Egyptians figured out a way to mummify their dead Pharoahs, but > does anyone know it? Ummm... Yeah. I knew that in grade school. > Just because a people figured out something long ago, that doesn't > mean it's still known centuries later. One would expect that something useful would continue ot be used. What the Greeks knew in 100BC is not only still known today it is still being taught today. >> >> >> >> Columbus left Spain with and the knowledge he is known to have had >> >> >> >> (and some he is suspected to have had) it becomes obvious that "The >> >> >> >> Far East" was never his target because assuming an all sea route in a >> >> >> >> westerly direction, he left with insuffucient rations to make the trip. >> >> >> >> > Columbus used a smaller value for the circumference of the Earth than >> >> >> > the correct value, >> >> >> >> Smaller is an understatement as he missed it by more than 50%.  A >> >> >> navigator who made mistakes like that would hardly have lasted as >> >> >> long as he had or had a reputaion supposedly as good as his. >> >> >> >> >                      even though other folks at the time had something >> >> >> > quite close to the correct value. >> >> >> >> At the time?  Try more than 1400 years earlier. >> >> >> > Why does this matter? > Because people forget. See above. People, as a whole, don't just forget. And,a s I said above what the Greeks knew in 100 BC was still being taught at the time of Columbus and is still being taught today. Nobody just forgot. >> >> >> >> >                                    Was this intentional on his part to >> >> >> > make his plans sound more realistic, or did he really believe in the >> >> >> > smaller value? >> >> >> >> Or did he have pre-knowledge of the existence of the North and South >> >> >> American (although obviously not under that name) continents and merely >> >> >> bilked Ferdinand and Isabella into financing his boondogle to se what >> >> >> was there!! > Or did he want what was behind the box next to the beautiful Carol > Maryl? Apparently King Ferdinand did because Columbus turned out to be just as good a huckster as Monty Hall. >> >> >> > Or did he prefer dogs or cats? This is pure speculation. Maybe he did? >> >> > Maybe not. Is there any evidence at all to make what you suspect >> >> > plausible? >> >> >> The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south >> >> america.  The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of >> >> the earth.  The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that >> >> destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling west. >> >> Looks kinda like simple math to add them  up.  You do realize that >> >> Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle.  Others, >> >> refused. >> > CBS refused Star Trek in favor of Lost in Space! >> >> Isn't that like being offered a bag of horse manure or a bag of cow manure? > Nope, and it's your loss. How is my belief that TV has been the biggest waste of scientific research the earth has ever seen my loss? I find much more productive things to do with my time than to sit and gawk at "The vast wasteland". >> >> > So what great riches was he hoping to find in the Americas? >> >> Actually, I don't think greed was his motive.  I believe he wanted to >> discover and explore a place he knew his European counterparts had never >> seen.  But no one was going to finance that.  So he made up a an absurd >> theory about reaching India and bilked Spain into financing it.  And >> got called a hero for his effort. > Well, I meant motive. > Fine, so Bob K. came up with a poor example in your opinion. That > doesn't necessarily invalidate his point, and I believe he had another > example. Let's move on already. Consider the topic dropped. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:56:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike R Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <20bda1ff-cc3b-4ef3-b42c-c9f230a8f6be@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Sep 25, 1:27=A0am, Alan Frisbie wrote: > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > > Alan Frisbie wrote: > > Also, has anyone come up with something similar to this > "tarpit" feature for FTP connections? =A0 My day would be > complete if I could eliminate that group of script kiddies. > > Thanks, > Alan No tarpit, but why not just close FTP e.g. $tcpip show service ftp /full Service: FTP State: Enabled Port: 21 Protocol: TCP Address: 0.0.0.0 Inactivity: 5 User_name: TCPIP$FTP Process: TCPIP $FTP Limit: 1 Active: 0 Peak: 1 ... Security Reject msg: FTP access is closed. Use SFTP. Accept host: XXXX.co.il Accept netw: 10.0.0.0:255.0.0. Mike http://alpha.mike-r.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 2008 11:47:20 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <6k40e8F61advU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Mike R writes: > On Sep 25, 10:19 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <147c1142-726e-4d89-9389-8f96394f0...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, >>         H Vlems writes: >> >> > On 25 sep, 17:20, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> Out of curiosity, what versions of SSH are supported by VMS's various >> >> IP stacks?  I hope everyone here knows that Version 1 should always >> >> be disabled. >> >> > OK, I'll admit my ignorance :-) I thought I had just one problem after >> > upgrading to TCPIP V5.7, >> > apparently I've got (at least) two... >> > 1) I can no longer use PuTTY in SSH mode after the upgrade >> > 2) how do I disable Version 1? >> >> Asking the wrong person.  I have never used SSH on VMS which is why I asked >> the question.  What I do no is there are serious holes in SSH Version 1 and >> the fix is not patching SSH Version 1 it is abandoning it and only using >> SSH Version 2.  Many systems (PUTTY included) support both and come with >> both enabled.  If you have Version 1 enabled, even if you never use it, >> someone else might use it to attack your system.   >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton   | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include   > See Section 3.10.1 of TCPIP Release notes for V5.6 > CERT-2001-35 OpenVMS is not vulnerable. Affects SSH Version 1 only, > which is not supported. > Could not find any mention in the V5.4 Release notes > Mike > http://alpha.mike-r.com/ Thanks, that's good to know. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 2008 11:50:25 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <6k40k1F61advU2@mid.individual.net> In article <00A802AF.F7912D00@sendspamhere.org>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > In article <147c1142-726e-4d89-9389-8f96394f0a17@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, H Vlems writes: >>On 25 sep, 17:20, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>> Out of curiosity, what versions of SSH are supported by VMS's various >>> IP stacks? =A0I hope everyone here knows that Version 1 should always >>> be disabled. >>> >>> bill >>> >>> -- >>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. = >>=A0Three wolves >>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >>> University of Scranton =A0 | >>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include = >>=A0 >> >>OK, I'll admit my ignorance :-) I thought I had just one problem after >>upgrading to TCPIP V5.7, >>apparently I've got (at least) two... >>1) I can no longer use PuTTY in SSH mode after the upgrade >>2) how do I disable Version 1? >>Hans > > Is it that stupid "Google Groups" interface? I'm getting nauseous reading > through all of the quoted-pukeable vomit that's been 'emeted' here lately. > Please get a NEWSREADER and configure it properly to output TEXT. Thanks! > It ain't me, something else must have butchered my posting. I use Knews on a BSD box and get/send my from thru news.individual.de. I wouldn't even consider Google Groups as a News service at all. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:28:29 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <00A80342.B336DAC6@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <6k40k1F61advU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article <00A802AF.F7912D00@sendspamhere.org>, > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> In article <147c1142-726e-4d89-9389-8f96394f0a17@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, H Vlems writes: >>>On 25 sep, 17:20, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>>> Out of curiosity, what versions of SSH are supported by VMS's various >>>> IP stacks? =A0I hope everyone here knows that Version 1 should always >>>> be disabled. >>>> >>>> bill >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. = >>>=A0Three wolves >>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >>>> University of Scranton =A0 | >>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include = >>>=A0 >>> >>>OK, I'll admit my ignorance :-) I thought I had just one problem after >>>upgrading to TCPIP V5.7, >>>apparently I've got (at least) two... >>>1) I can no longer use PuTTY in SSH mode after the upgrade >>>2) how do I disable Version 1? >>>Hans >> >> Is it that stupid "Google Groups" interface? I'm getting nauseous reading >> through all of the quoted-pukeable vomit that's been 'emeted' here lately. >> Please get a NEWSREADER and configure it properly to output TEXT. Thanks! >> > >It ain't me, something else must have butchered my posting. I use Knews >on a BSD box and get/send my from thru news.individual.de. I wouldn't >even consider Google Groups as a News service at all. I know. Your posts are fine. However, one of yours had been quoted and converted to quoted-pukeable. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:33:01 -0400 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: RE: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: >... > OK, I'll admit my ignorance :-) I thought I had just one problem after > upgrading to TCPIP V5.7, > apparently I've got (at least) two... > 1) I can no longer use PuTTY in SSH mode after the upgrade > 2) how do I disable Version 1? > Hans HP's SSH is Version 2 so you do not have to worry about Version 1. Has V5.7 been released now? I am still using T5.7 and I had no problems with SSH when I upgraded from V5.6 on both Alpha and IA64. What problems are you seeing with SSH? If someone has a pointer to when I can download V5.7 then I would appreciate receiving it. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca www.openvmsvirtualization.com www.vaxvirtualization.com www.alphavirtualization.com Winner of the 2007 OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Award for System Management/Performance ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:25:59 -0400 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: RE: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <89AB36AEA74C493583B10019EDB30840@CHARONLAP> >... > Another thing to note when using this procedure (as I have learned > in the last two days) is that the script kiddies will fire off five > or ten simultaneous SSH threads. Thus, you will have five or ten > log files with no records in them yet. Given that each one gives > them three attempts to guess the password, you will get a lot of > alarms before the rate limiting kicks in. But when those log files > are closed/flushed, boy do they hit a brick wall! :-) My original goal was to tie the hacker's machine up waiting for the prompt rather than stopping them. I have logged over 63,000 break-in attempts but they only hit a valid username 165 times so I am not worried about one of these idiots getting in. When I first created this I was disappointed to see that the attackers give up so early in the attack. But if you want them to go away faster you can try adding a "SET OUTPUT_RATE=00:00:02" to the LOGIN.COM and see if that helps. >... > Now I just wish for a similar one for FTP. >... I very seldom see FTP attacks. POP attacks were more common when I had the POP port opened on the firewall, but I had to close that because of the huge security whole JF keeps mentioning but HP keeps ignoring. I use HG_FTP because it plays with Windows user better than HP's FTP so I don't know if a similar technique would work with HP's FTP. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca www.openvmsvirtualization.com www.vaxvirtualization.com www.alphavirtualization.com Winner of the 2007 OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Award for System Management/Performance ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:31:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike R Subject: Re: Text file generated by a Cobol application Message-ID: <060a1aae-53e4-4527-b972-6a300c05fab4@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Sep 24, 6:20=A0am, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi: > I=B4m a newbie in VMS, and I=B4m looking for a way to remove > all hidden characters in a text file to get only pure text. > Thanks IMHO the easiest way would be using TPU (also has the advantage that you would learn TPU...) the following is CONTROL.TPU - change to suit yourself: ! CONTROL.TPU ! TPU procedure to remove ASCII 1 - 31 characters from a file ! ! Usage: EDIT/TPU/NOSECTIO/COMMAND=3DCONTROL.TPU ! ! Mike Rechtman, 1996 PROCEDURE global_delete( X ) LOCAL src_range, CONTROL_ ON_ERROR RETURN; ENDON_ERROR; CONTROL_ :=3D ASCII(X); LOOP src_range :=3D SEARCH( CONTROL_,FORWARD ); ERASE( src_range ); ENDLOOP; ENDPROCEDURE; LOCAL X file_spec :=3D GET_INFO( COMMAND_LINE,"file_name" ); next_file :=3D ""; next_file :=3D File_Search (file_spec); msg_txt :=3D FAO(" Working on !AS " , next_file); MESSAGE ( msg_txt ) ; main_buffer :=3D CREATE_BUFFER( "main",next_file ) ; X :=3D 0 ; Loop X :=3D X+1 ; Exitif X > 31 ; POSITION( BEGINNING_OF( main_buffer ) ) ; global_delete( X ) ; Endloop ; WRITE_FILE( main_buffer ) ; DELETE ( main_buffer ) ; EXIT ; ! Mike R http://alpha.mike-r.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: VMS831H1I_UPDATE V2.0 v. zx2000: [SYS$LDR]UPDATE-V0200_FAIL_SYS$EFI.BAK Message-ID: <774033c6-61ad-458a-9c5f-f857aa3849cd@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 25, 10:03=A0pm, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > =A0 =A0Ah. =A0Thanks. =A0I see now that the details are all laid out in a= n ITRC > thread which I had ignored. > > http://forums.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=3D1..= . > > =A0 =A0VMS831H1I_IPB seems to do the trick. =A0I suppose that the lesson = here > is to read _all_ the junk on the ITRC forum, not only the interesting > junk. Or read the messages that arrive from the openvms.org alerts list which I hope you do subscribe to :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:27:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: What creates .RND files? Message-ID: <23c0ef72-1c6a-4d79-a41c-f948e3879676@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Sep 25, 3:20=A0pm, VMS is Virus Free wrote: > On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:58:42 -0500, VMS is Virus Free > > > > wrote: > >We have a VMS V8.3 system running Multinet and Oracle Rdb. Other than > >Rdb, it is pretty much a run-of-the-mill VMS system. When analyzing > >our disks, we found there to be a bunch of .RND;1 files, just one > >each, in everyone's top level directory. Each file is exactly 2 blocks > >long. A dump shows just random binary values. So, true to its name, it > >does look like random data. > > >We connect to the system with both telnet and SSH from Windows systems > >(PuTTY and CRT) and from other VMS system. There is even some SET HOST > >activity still going on as we continue to support LAT. > > >I seem to recall from somewhere in the past the Rdb created these > >files as pat of its normal operations. I also know that SSH likes to > >have a random seed here an there. I've Googled this condition but did > >not find anything definite. > > >This is mostly curiosity as to where they come from. Any ideas? > > We have traced this so far the SSL connections during times of high > activity and concurrent SSL connections. Since the SSL files are SSL > related, there's probably a bug in the code that handles this part of > the connection. Key generation in general (PGP, OpenSSL) involves either reading in random input or using a random input file. Perhaps this is debris from that activity. I have a 2-block long file under my login directory on our (OpenVMS V7.3-2, TCPIP V5.4 eco 7) system called [.ASRG-OPENSSL]RANDOM.RND;1 created in 2002. Thats about the time we were playing with OpenSSL for a project. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.520 ************************