INFO-VAX Tue, 23 Sep 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 513
Contents:
Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium?
Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium?
Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium?
Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime
Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime
Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications to I
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
EFI Console
Re: EFI Console
Re: EFI Console
Re: EFI Console
Re: EFI Console
Re: EFI Console
Re: EFI Console
getting rid of quoted printable
Re: getting rid of quoted printable
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup ?
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Re: How to retreive values from a file
Re: How to retreive values from a file
Re: How to retreive values from a file
Re: How to retreive values from a file
Re: How to retreive values from a file
Re: How to retreive values from a file
Re: How to retreive values from a file
Re: HP to axe 24,6000 jobs
Re: Intermittent RWSCS state
Re: Is there an updated Ghostscript for VMS?
Jabber & VMS - what happens next?
Re: Jabber & VMS - what happens next?
RE: Jabber & VMS - what happens next?
Re: Loose Cannon-dian
Re: Loose Cannon-dian
mailing list GW OK?
Re: mailing list GW OK?
Manipulating debug and traceback flags
Re: Manipulating debug and traceback flags
Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Re: NEWS was: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available
Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available
Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken
Re: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Silverlight native TCP/IP Socket support in V2
SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
Re: SSH break-in attempts
testing a pointer
Re: testing a pointer
Re: testing a pointer
Re: testing a pointer
Re: testing a pointer
We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ?
Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ?
RE: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ?
[OT] LHC costs, was: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:56:28 +0200
From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl">
Subject: Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium?
Message-ID: <48d1edab$0$183$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
In this case listings would have shown that the linkage of that routine was
eliminated for Itanium.
There are more people working on Itanium. I've done my fair share of drivers,
execlets, uwss and other kernel stuff on all platforms. But listings are
really necessary for that sort of work.
Jur.
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote, On 17-9-2008 12:45:
> In article <3c9768ff-c88a-4a91-8de1-e049e143a825@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
>> I have done one execlet which works on alpha and itanium. It is
>> written in C,
>> See http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~miller/mbmon010.zip
>>
>> I guess you need someone with access to Itanium VMS listings to see
>> how execlects are linked on that platform.
>
> NOT!!!
>
> I have myriad working execlets and drivers that I've linked. I'm perfectly
> fine with linking these. It turns out that the system routine in question
> has been elided from VMS on Itanium but the reference to it still listed in
> the SYS$BASE_IMAGE map.
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:20:01 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium?
Message-ID: <00A7FCEF.CEF6DE42@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <48d1edab$0$183$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes:
>In this case listings would have shown that the linkage of that routine was
>eliminated for Itanium.
>
>There are more people working on Itanium. I've done my fair share of drivers,
>execlets, uwss and other kernel stuff on all platforms. But listings are
>really necessary for that sort of work.
Well, I don't know about that. I've decided to learn this stuff the old
fashioned way by looking at all of the executive with SDA. It takes some
time to trace down argument usage, etc., but I've managed thus far to get
all sorts of things ported without listings!
I've been munging page tables, mapping memory and, yes, even intercepting
executive routines and system services (change mode and mode of caller);
all without listings! Sad that Garrett E. Brown could believe that I was
dumber than a rock when it came to porting VMS code.
I really should have looked more carefully at the MMG$ALLOC_PFN_MAP_SVA
in the SYS$BASE_IMAGE.MAP file. Chalk that one up to Itanium instruction
blindness -- similar to snow-blindness. :) I spent two days and figured
out a replacement -- after several crashes. They're fun to pour through
though.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:45:32 +0000 (UTC)
From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Subject: Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium?
Message-ID: <gau43s$c81$1@pcls4.std.com>
"John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> writes:
>"Michael Moroney" <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote in message
>news:gap2vs$utd$1@pcls6.std.com...
>> I'm doing Macro work on Itanium and we've found odd Macro problems, but
>> the same problems exist on the Alpha macro compiler so I think we're the
>> first to encounter them since the Alpha came out.
>Do I know about them? I'm about to do some other Macro work/fixes so while
>I'm in there...
I just found something else that causes Itanium Macro to toss its cookies
(accvio). I'll narrow it down to a reproducer and get it to you when I
get a chance, but it doesn't seem serious (has to do with a wrong/missing
macro definition)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:51:55 -0500
From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com>
Subject: Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime
Message-ID: <N9KdnbjKurJx00_VnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
blowhard27 wrote:
> I'm getting the APR built (from the HP sources for SWS) and want to
> run the provided tests. There is a regular shareable library (builds
> fine) and a protected shareable library. I'm using a system on which
> I have only base privileges so I can't install the protected
> shareable.
>
> Can I just relink the protected shareable without the /protect
> qualifier and then at least be able to run images that are linked with
> it? With the understanding that I will probably run into privilege
> issues depending on what functions get called?
Might as well try it and see. ISTR the main thing it quarantines off in
the privileged image is adjusting the buffer size of sockets that are
used as pipes, and if it fails gracefully enough, you'll just end up
muddling on with your puny 256-byte default buffer. Kind of a shame this
buffer size isn't counted against quota rather than requiring privilege
to change.
> I'm doing this on one of the IA64 testdrive systems. Maybe someone
> can suggest another place? I want to build the APR so I can possibly
> build a (non Java) subversion client.
That would be cool. One option here might be to not build the APR at all
but just require SWS and link against the APR images installed with it.
You'd probably still need to use the headers from the source kit and of
course this approach would fall down flat if you encountered bugs or
missing features in whatever version of the APR SWS provides.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: blowhard27 <jgessling@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime
Message-ID: <e8b1d5d4-e852-4759-a42c-d2b39a08782e@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
> Might as well try it and see. ISTR the main thing it quarantines off in
> the privileged image is adjusting the buffer size of sockets that are
> used as pipes, and if it fails gracefully enough, you'll just end up
> muddling on with your puny 256-byte default buffer. Kind of a shame this
> buffer size isn't counted against quota rather than requiring privilege
> to change.
Yes, I will definitely try it. In fact I posted this knowing I would
need to do that but was tired and figured maybe an answer is out
there.
> That would be cool. (editor: building svn client) One option here might be to not build the APR at all
> but just require SWS and link against the APR images installed with it.
> You'd probably still need to use the headers from the source kit and of
> course this approach would fall down flat if you encountered bugs or
> missing features in whatever version of the APR SWS provides.
If I could find such a system... Anyone got one? I'm also trying the
other way round, that is taking the subversion client and seeing what
it really needs. Which leads me to wonder about a problem that we've
never really solved, dependencies. Just occurred to me that if I knew
the format of DSF files maybe a clever script could parse them and
tell me what to do.
Thanks for the ideas.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:00:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Verne <verne@wvnet.edu>
Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS
Message-ID: <60054fec-e1a5-46df-919d-6526c9ed6d1c@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 9, 3:46=A0am, Volker Halle <volker_ha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 Sep., 14:56, IanMiller <g...@uk2.net> wrote:
>
> > VAXSMGRMUP01_062, ECO Kit has been announced. This fixesSMGRTLfor
> > VAX/VMSV6.2.
>
> > Keep watching for more announcements.
>
> Note that you may not be able to expand this kit on OpenVMS VAXV6.2:
>
> $ run VAXSMGRMUP01_062.ZIPEXE
> %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image VAXSMGRMUP01_062.ZIPEXE
> -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file DSA10:<KITS>VAXSMGRMUP01_062.ZIPEXE;1
> -SYSTEM-F-BADIMGHDR, bad image header
>
> Expanding the kit on OpenVMS VAX V7.3 works fine, as well as
> installation onV6.2
>
> Volker.
Engineering has replaced the v6.2 ZIPEXE module on ITRC with
VAXSMGRMUP01_062.A-DCX_VAXEXE (dated 17-SEP-2008) ... and since
I actually have a v6.2 system, I downloaded it and can state that
the DCX image will run and unpack correctly on 6.2 :-)
Verne
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 15:46:19 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS
Message-ID: <MUaQbtPtJ14p@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <ef9bfabc-937d-41c1-9634-afe47f42d84e@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Len Whitwer <len@psds.com> writes:
> Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
> "executables" to
> run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
> compiled.
VEST goes from VAX to Alpha and AEST goes from Alpha to Itanium.
AEST can handle the output of VEST. Both are available from HP.
You can also get simulators that simulate VAX hardware or Alpha
hardware on other platforms. That way you're running on a new
platform but the software thinks you're running on the old.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: IanMiller <gxys@uk2.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Message-ID: <be84ba96-e85e-4a0e-b13b-b6c19c2cc2ee@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 4:18=A0pm, Len Whitwer <l...@psds.com> wrote:
> Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
> "executables" to
> run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
> compiled.
>
> I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for
> PDP11's to VAX back
> in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Len Whitwer
>
> -Len Whitwer
> Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc.
> 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100
> Woodinville, WA =A098072
> e-mail =A0 =A0mailto:l...@psds.com
> Internet:http://www.psds.com
> Toll Free: (866)857-0710
> Tel: (425) 488-0710
> Fax: (425) 488-6414
OpenVMS Migration Software for VAX to Alpha (previously known as
DECmigrate aka VEST)
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsva.html
Then
HP OpenVMS migration software for HP AlphaServer systems to HP
Integrity Servers (OMSAIS)
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsais.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Message-ID: <b2954396-357f-4f90-96f3-ceb83726be90@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 10:18 am, Len Whitwer <l...@psds.com> wrote:
> Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
> "executables" to
> run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
> compiled.
>
> I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for
> PDP11's to VAX back
> in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Len Whitwer
>
> -Len Whitwer
> Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc.
> 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100
> Woodinville, WA 98072
> e-mail mailto:l...@psds.com
> Internet:http://www.psds.com
> Toll Free: (866)857-0710
> Tel: (425) 488-0710
> Fax: (425) 488-6414
Len,
Ian has already posted the link. The PDP-11 conversion was part of
OpenVMS itself. Hardware compatibility was part of every processor
till the MicroVAX I, and thereafter the Applications Migration
Executive (AME) was a separate licensed component. There is a good
Digital Technical Journal article, but I am not near my bookshelf at
this instant so I cannot provide the citation.
The VEST and AEST packages are quite useful, particularly if there are
missing sources. They are also useful as management tools to doing an
actual migration. My OpenVMS Technical Journal article "Strategies for
Migrating from Alpha and VAX systems to HP Integrity Servers on
OpenVMS" (available via http://www.rlgsc.com/publications/vmstechjournal/migrationstrategies.html
), as well as my presentation of the same title from the 2008 HP
Enterprise Technology Forum (slides at
http://www.rlgsc.com/hptechnologyforum/2008/migrationstrategies.html )
covered how the binary translators can be used as a strategic tool.
- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:38:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Len Whitwer <len@psds.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Message-ID: <779ac76f-763d-4094-92bc-b5d6ad539f31@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 8:25=A0am, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:18:41 -0700, Len Whitwer <l...@psds.com> wrote:
> > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
> > "executables" to
> > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
> > compiled.
>
> > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for
> > PDP11's to VAX back
> > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> What is the source language of the executable?
>
>
>
> > Len Whitwer
>
> > -Len Whitwer
> > Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc.
> > 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100
> > Woodinville, WA =A098072
> > e-mail =A0 =A0mailto:l...@psds.com
> > Internet:http://www.psds.com
> > Toll Free: (866)857-0710
> > Tel: (425) 488-0710
> > Fax: (425) 488-6414
>
> --
> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com
The some of the source code is BASIC however not all. (This is an old
school application product that has many modules of which not all are
BASIC)
Thus the emulation product is best in the short run until complete re-
compliling of
software is can be completed.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:34:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Len Whitwer <len@psds.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Message-ID: <331a61ae-0389-47ab-ab91-280416322088@b30g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 9:58=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Len Whitwer wrote:
> > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
> > "executables" to
> > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
> > compiled.
>
> > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for
> > PDP11's to VAX back
> > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> ISTR that DEC did it. =A0If you purchased the RSX11 software for VAX, you
> could run your PDP-11 stuff on a VAX 11/780 or 11/750 and maybe on the
> 730 and 725. =A0I never actually ran any PDP-11 software on a VAX.
>
> I have NOT heard of such a tool for Integrity. =A0What happened to your
> source code? =A0If it's commercial software you want to run, does your
> license allow you to run it on Integrity?
Hi Richard:
Source code is in many modules of which are not all BASIC. It is
comercial
software running on ALPHA and I'm not sure at this point anout
licensing as
I don't have a solution "product" yet.
Thanks for you help.
Len Whitwer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:20:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Message-ID: <035d7d31-debf-4fc1-b194-fab7e062377a@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 1:34=A0pm, Len Whitwer <l...@psds.com> wrote:
> Source code is in many modules of which are not all BASIC. It is
> comercial software running on ALPHA and I'm not sure at this point anout
> licensing as I don't have a solution "product" yet.
If source code is available then I wouldn't even bother taking the
time to translate the images. Whether or not they are all BASIC or a
mix of languages shouldn't be a factor.
For a commercial product in particular, where the HP/DSPP program can
provide free Integrity licenses for migration, then it's almost a no-
brainer.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:18:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Len Whitwer <len@psds.com>
Subject: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications to I
Message-ID: <ef9bfabc-937d-41c1-9634-afe47f42d84e@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
"executables" to
run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
compiled.
I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for
PDP11's to VAX back
in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Len Whitwer
-Len Whitwer
Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc.
19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100
Woodinville, WA 98072
e-mail mailto:len@psds.com
Internet: http://www.psds.com
Toll Free: (866)857-0710
Tel: (425) 488-0710
Fax: (425) 488-6414
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:58:18 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Message-ID: <ktOdnb-3E8-uFU_VnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@comcast.com>
Len Whitwer wrote:
> Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
> "executables" to
> run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
> compiled.
>
> I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for
> PDP11's to VAX back
> in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
ISTR that DEC did it. If you purchased the RSX11 software for VAX, you
could run your PDP-11 stuff on a VAX 11/780 or 11/750 and maybe on the
730 and 725. I never actually ran any PDP-11 software on a VAX.
I have NOT heard of such a tool for Integrity. What happened to your
source code? If it's commercial software you want to run, does your
license allow you to run it on Integrity?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:25:00 -0700
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications
Message-ID: <op.uhonryhdhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:18:41 -0700, Len Whitwer <len@psds.com> wrote:
> Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software
> "executables" to
> run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re-
> compiled.
>
> I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for
> PDP11's to VAX back
> in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
What is the source language of the executable?
>
> Len Whitwer
>
> -Len Whitwer
> Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc.
> 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100
> Woodinville, WA 98072
> e-mail mailto:len@psds.com
> Internet: http://www.psds.com
> Toll Free: (866)857-0710
> Tel: (425) 488-0710
> Fax: (425) 488-6414
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:22:57 -0700
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: EFI Console
Message-ID: <op.uhonoju9hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>
I got one of those RX2600 and in trying to talk to the console
connected from an Alpha using
SET HOST/DTE TTA0
it keeps trying to refresh the screen and eventually ends with
garbage. What should be the terminal settings on the Alpha?
Tom
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:35:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: sampsal@gmail.com
Subject: Re: EFI Console
Message-ID: <0b50f3ac-f986-4504-8081-80e486b306d3@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 4:22=A0pm, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> wrote:
> I got one of those RX2600 and in trying to talk to the console
> connected from an Alpha using
> SET HOST/DTE TTA0
>
> it keeps trying to refresh the screen and eventually ends with
> garbage. =A0What should be the terminal settings on the Alpha?
Which port are you connected to, the CONSOLE port on the rx itself or
the management processor?
This anyway, I've got a null modem cable hooked up to the CONSOLE port
(not the MP) and this is the terminal settings shown by VMS once
logged in (the other end is an OS X box running ckermit):
$ show term
Terminal: _OPA0: Device_Type: VT100 Owner: SYSTEM
Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None
Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24
Terminal Characteristics:
Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape
No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase Tab
Wrap Scope No Remote No
Eightbit
Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup
No Modem No Local_echo No Autobaud No Hangup
No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed
No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No
Fallback
No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru
No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer
Port
Numeric Keypad ANSI_CRT No Regis No
Block_mode
Advanced_video No Edit_mode DEC_CRT No
DEC_CRT2
No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No
Ansi_Color
VMS Style Input <CTRL-H> Backspace
On a related note, does anyone know how I get the MP to act as the
OPA0: VMS console?
Sampsa
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:31:10 -0400
From: "John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: EFI Console
Message-ID: <qO-dnW_DrpzyNE7VnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
<sampsal@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0b50f3ac-f986-4504-8081-80e486b306d3@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On a related note, does anyone know how I get the MP to act as the
OPA0: VMS console?
At the EFI menu, select the boot options and change the default
input/output/error devices from the UART on the BMC console to the other
UART which is part of the MP. VMS will then use that device. Personally, I
connect to all my MP's via IP using PuTTY and only use the serial line the
first time to config the MP lan device.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 06:19:21 -0700
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: Re: EFI Console
Message-ID: <op.uhr7ajy0hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 06:31:10 -0700, John Reagan
<johnrreagan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <sampsal@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0b50f3ac-f986-4504-8081-80e486b306d3@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> On a related note, does anyone know how I get the MP to act as the
> OPA0: VMS console?
>
>
> At the EFI menu, select the boot options and change the default
> input/output/error devices from the UART on the BMC console to the other
> UART which is part of the MP. VMS will then use that device.
> Personally, I
> connect to all my MP's via IP using PuTTY and only use the serial line
> the
> first time to config the MP lan device.
John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears in
the
same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232
console
port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to
properly
scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video.
>
> John
>
>
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:15:46 -0400
From: "John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: EFI Console
Message-ID: <af6dnRgx6YTKmEjVnZ2dnUVZ_rTinZ2d@earthlink.com>
"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> wrote in message
news:op.uhr7ajy0hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
> John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears in
> the
> same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232
> console
> port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to
> properly
> scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video.
No, I just swear under my breath and use 'cls' to clear the screen.
John
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 05:39:43 -0700
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: Re: EFI Console
Message-ID: <op.uhvusht8hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:15:46 -0700, John Reagan
<johnrreagan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> wrote in message
> news:op.uhr7ajy0hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
>> John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears
>> in
>> the
>> same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232
>> console
>> port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to
>> properly
>> scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video.
>
> No, I just swear under my breath and use 'cls' to clear the screen.
>
> John
>
>
Sure miss SRM.
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:21:37 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: EFI Console
Message-ID: <00A8001D.141873E4@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <op.uhvusht8hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> writes:
>On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:15:46 -0700, John Reagan
><johnrreagan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> wrote in message
>> news:op.uhr7ajy0hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
>>> John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears
>>> in
>>> the
>>> same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232
>>> console
>>> port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to
>>> properly
>>> scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video.
>>
>> No, I just swear under my breath and use 'cls' to clear the screen.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>Sure miss SRM.
I've patched the HP in the initial:
HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Operating System, Version Vmaj.min
to output <esc>c.
As soon as VMS boots, the screen is back to normal.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:52:53 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: getting rid of quoted printable
Message-ID: <gb3d9l$846$1@online.de>
In article <gb0o91$fje$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de
(Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
> In article <00A7FDE1.0A74FF45@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
> > I once started writing a decoder for q-p for incorporation into NEWSRDR
> > but then I decided it wasn't worth the effort.
>
> On my to-do list is writing an EDT macro for such decoding.
Here it is. Put this in your EDTINI.EDT:
! kill quoted-printable
DEFINE MACRO KQP
FIND BUFFER KQP
INSERT;s|=FC|ü|w
INSERT;s|=DF|ß|w
INSERT;s|=F6|ö|w
INSERT;s|=E4|ä|w
INSERT;s|=3D|=|w
INSERT;s|=A0| |w
INSERT;s|=92|'|w
INSERT;s|=20||w
INSERT;s|=C4|Ä|w
INSERT;s|=D6|Ö|w
INSERT;s|=DC|Ü|w
FIND LAST
Go to the command line (PF1 KP7 or CTRL-Z) and type KQP. It's easy to
add more codes if you wish. EDT is fast; I have a 362-line EDTINI.EDT
and I hardly notice it, even though it is read anew each time I edit a
file. I use EDT not only from the DCL command line but also within VMS
MAIL, NEWSRDR etc so I always have the same commands available.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:57:33 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: getting rid of quoted printable
Message-ID: <gb3did$846$2@online.de>
In article <gb3d9l$846$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de
(Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
> Here it is. Put this in your EDTINI.EDT:
>
> ! kill quoted-printable
> DEFINE MACRO KQP
> FIND BUFFER KQP
> INSERT;s|=FC|ü|w
> INSERT;s|=DF|ß|w
I'm sure real EDT wizards could do this more elegantly.
With EDT, you can easily input any character via its code, so it's easy
to extend the table:
PF1 <code in decimal> PF1 KP3
To see a table of codes, type (at the DCL command line)
HELP FORTRAN CHAR
This gives you two charts, 0--127 and 128--255, but in hex. (That
shouldn't be a problem for real programmers, though.) Note that the DEC
multinational character set (which is the second table above) is ALMOST
the same as ISO-Latin-8859-15.
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 11:44:03 -0500
From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without
Message-ID: <0y4AFDa0ythE@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com> writes:
>
> I use groups.google.com, and used to use newsgroups through eisner as
> characted interface.
> I'll try to find an other reader to see what and how it comes accross
> wrong.
> I don't suppose you are interested in trying for example google groups
> to see if looks ok there.
This message comes to you from Eisner using ANU News.
I'm using the version of ANU News that Graham modified to support NNTP
authentication and have a free account at news.sunsite.dk
(http://dotsrc.org/usenet), which gives access to the comp.* hierarchy
(and some others).
A thread is on Eisner in the DECUSERVE_FORUM conference, topic 788.
Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:03:36 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <00A7FDAE.4CB63B48@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae220@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com> writes:
>On Sep 18, 6:30=A0pm, Malcolm Dunnett <noth...@spammers.are.scum> wrote:
>> Syltrem wrote:
>>
>> > I know all of that.
>> > If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ?
>>
>> > That's what I want to know.
>>
>> I think the general answer is "you can't".
>>
>> You could set the volumes to have highwater marking enabled, then the
>> "junk" file would contain all zeros, However that can slow down file
>> extend operations considerably.
>
>Highwater marking CAN hurt, but for many 'normal' operations it is
>just about transparent.
>For certain applications if it too harsh. File extends are free.. but
>that first random access write...
>
>
>> > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's con=
>tent
>> > is garbage".
> > No.
>
>Well yes, in the backup container.
>Do you still have the container?
>Backup / list [/full] does not show it, but it knows it.
>
>I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag.
>I don't pretend to understand a backup container (like do I worry
>about blocksize?), but this first part seemed easy.
>Code appended below.
>
>The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the
>reader. SMOP! :-)
Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet
with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. I remember days when
I could read DCL code posted to usenet. This code is now usenot.
Hein, what are you using for your newsreader?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:34:54 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <gb0kbe$o81$1@online.de>
In article
<32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com> writes:
> On Sep 19, 7:03=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > In article <dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.c=
> om>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheu...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >Code appended below.
> > >The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the
> > >reader. SMOP! =A0:-)
> >
> > Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet
> > with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. =A0I remember days when
> > I could read DCL code posted to usenet. =A0This code is now usenot.
>
> Oops sorry 'bout that. Looks good to me.
> Except that it indicates 'quoted text' for the last two lines with
> closing braces.
That's the problem---it looks good to YOU. Your reader is interpreting
the quoted-printable stuff, so you don't see what it looks like in a
text-based newsreader.
I recommend NEWSRDR. It has an interface similar to VMS MAIL. It also
lets you define keys (as does VMS MAIL). It is a character-cell based
application (like VMS MAIL).
I can sort of understand using quoted-printable when 8-bit characters
are involved. However, in practice, just posting the raw 8-bit
characters seems to work fine. ISO-Latin-8859-15 is probably assumed
(one has to assume SOMETHING, since there is no one standard 8-bit
encoding), but that is almost always a good assumption (and if not, you
probably couldn't read it in any case).
What really annoys me, though, is encoding 7-bit printable US-ASCII
characters. What is the possible purpose of that? Instead of "=" we
get "=3D" etc. For those of us who learned to type properly (at least
VAXman and myself :-) ) and insert two spaces at the end of a sentence,
instead of ". " we get ". =A0" when our posts are quoted. That's also
an annoyance---not only folks posting quoted-printable stuff, but
transforming perfectly good plain text to quoted-printable when quoting
it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:06:49 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <00A7FDE1.0A74FF45@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <gb0kbe$o81$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
>In article
><32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sep 19, 7:03=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> > In article <dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.c=
>> om>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheu...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > >Code appended below.
>> > >The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the
>> > >reader. SMOP! =A0:-)
>> >
>> > Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet
>> > with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. =A0I remember days when
>> > I could read DCL code posted to usenet. =A0This code is now usenot.
>>
>> Oops sorry 'bout that. Looks good to me.
>> Except that it indicates 'quoted text' for the last two lines with
>> closing braces.
>
>That's the problem---it looks good to YOU. Your reader is interpreting
>the quoted-printable stuff, so you don't see what it looks like in a
>text-based newsreader.
>
>I recommend NEWSRDR. It has an interface similar to VMS MAIL. It also
>lets you define keys (as does VMS MAIL). It is a character-cell based
>application (like VMS MAIL).
>
>I can sort of understand using quoted-printable when 8-bit characters
>are involved. However, in practice, just posting the raw 8-bit
>characters seems to work fine. ISO-Latin-8859-15 is probably assumed
>(one has to assume SOMETHING, since there is no one standard 8-bit
>encoding), but that is almost always a good assumption (and if not, you
>probably couldn't read it in any case).
Unfortunately, ISO-Latin-8859-15 is not always the assumed default set.
I've been using Ubuntu linux on a laptop and I use it to access my VMS
machines. It, unfortunately, uses UTF-8 as its default. However, I've
found that:
1 - screen works better than the basic gnome terminal app if accessing
VMS.
2 - you can changed the default character set in screen
I have a .screenrc file with a few very basic defaults
startup_message off
defescape ^xx <= changes screen command escape from ^A to ^X
defencoding ISO8859-15 \because I use ^A in VMS for toggling insert
I now access VMS with $ screen ssh -p#### username@vmshost.domain from
the gnome terminal and it works like a charm. Tough bit is using EDT.
>What really annoys me, though, is encoding 7-bit printable US-ASCII
>characters. What is the possible purpose of that? Instead of "=" we
>get "=3D" etc. For those of us who learned to type properly (at least
>VAXman and myself :-) ) and insert two spaces at the end of a sentence,
>instead of ". " we get ". =A0" when our posts are quoted. That's also
>an annoyance---not only folks posting quoted-printable stuff, but
>transforming perfectly good plain text to quoted-printable when quoting
>it.
You can thank Miscreant Idiot Coding Rejects Outputting Specious Often
Flawed Technology in a large part for that.
I once started writing a decoder for q-p for incorporation into NEWSRDR
but then I decided it wasn't worth the effort.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:41:53 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <gb0o91$fje$1@online.de>
In article <00A7FDE1.0A74FF45@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> I once started writing a decoder for q-p for incorporation into NEWSRDR
> but then I decided it wasn't worth the effort.
On my to-do list is writing an EDT macro for such decoding.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <faa0e799-b226-421d-b64a-e965fb55e451@b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 1:33=A0pm, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> As in the subject...
>
> I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else.
>
> x.x is set to NOBACKUP
>
> I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=3DNOBA=
CKUP
> because I did it purposefully
> %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP
>
> But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files.
>
> The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by
> looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains val=
id
> data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a
> header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case.
>
> How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ?
> Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal
> file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the f=
ile
> does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ?
This one is easy: the copied file has garbage in it. BACKUP told
you so. All DIRECTORY tells you is, essentially, about the file
organization and size, nothing about its contents (data).
The reason for setting a file NOBACKUP is to avoid spending time
coping the contents of a file that are known will not be usable,
e.g.,
a pagefile or swapfile, or indeed, certain kinds of database file
(which is why databases include their own backup utilities).
You *must* use Backup/Ignore=3DNoBackup if you want to copy
the data in a file rather than just allocating space for it.
-Ken
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:14:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <9baea9eb-814f-49d8-8d05-2a9135a41cd6@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 2:06=A0pm, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> <Ken.Fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:faa0e799-b226-421d-b64a-e965fb55e451@b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 18, 1:33 pm, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As in the subject...
>
> > I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else.
>
> > x.x is set to NOBACKUP
>
> > I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using
> > BACKUP/IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP
> > because I did it purposefully
> > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP
>
> > But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files.
>
> > The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by
> > looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains
> > valid
> > data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain =
a
> > header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case.
>
> > How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ?
> > Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriigin=
al
> > file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the
> > file
> > does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ?
>
> > This one is easy: the copied file has garbage in it. =A0BACKUP told
> > you so. =A0All DIRECTORY tells you is, essentially, about the file
> > organization and size, nothing about its contents (data).
>
> > The reason for setting a file NOBACKUP is to avoid spending time
> > coping the contents of a file that are known will not be usable,
> > e.g.,
> > a pagefile or swapfile, or indeed, certain kinds of database file
> > (which is why databases include their own backup utilities).
>
> > You *must* use Backup/Ignore=3DNoBackup if you want to copy
> > the data in a file rather than just allocating space for it.
>
> > =A0 =A0-Ken
>
> Hi Ken
>
> I know all of that.
> If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ?
>
> That's what I want to know.
> As you sais there is garbage in my file. But the original file also conta=
ins
> data that looks like garbege to human eyes so I cannot tell just by looki=
ng
> at the file's contents.
>
> Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's conte=
nt
> is garbage".
No, I don't believe there is any (external) way to tell.
Certainly, there's no flag.
-Ken
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 23:18:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae220@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 6:30=A0pm, Malcolm Dunnett <noth...@spammers.are.scum> wrote:
> Syltrem wrote:
>
> > I know all of that.
> > If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ?
>
> > That's what I want to know.
>
> I think the general answer is "you can't".
>
> You could set the volumes to have highwater marking enabled, then the
> "junk" file would contain all zeros, However that can slow down file
> extend operations considerably.
Highwater marking CAN hurt, but for many 'normal' operations it is
just about transparent.
For certain applications if it too harsh. File extends are free.. but
that first random access write...
> > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's con=
tent
> > is garbage".
> No.
Well yes, in the backup container.
Do you still have the container?
Backup / list [/full] does not show it, but it knows it.
I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag.
I don't pretend to understand a backup container (like do I worry
about blocksize?), but this first part seemed easy.
Code appended below.
The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the
reader. SMOP! :-)
.
For now, I just merged the tool output with BACKUP/LIST output
$ pipe mcr sys$login:list_backup tmp.bck > tmp.flags
$ backup/list=3Dtmp.lis tmp.bck/save
$ create merge.pl
$f =3D shift or die "need flag file";
open F,"<$f" or die "Could not open $f\n$!";
while (<F>) {
if (/FILE,/) {
$flag[$file++] =3D (/HEADONLY/) ? 1 : 0;
}
}
$f =3D shift or die "need backup list";
open F,"<$f" or die "Could not open $f\n$!";
$file =3D 0;
while (<F>) {
if (/^\[/) {
print 'HEADONLY '.$_ if $flag[$file++];
}
}
print "$file files.\n";
$ perl merge.pl tmp.flags tmp.lis
HEADONLY [HEIN]ORACLE_10GR2_CHECK_QUOTA.COM;4
9 6-MAY-2008 12:04
HEADONLY [HEIN]ORACLE_10G_PRE_INSTALL_CHECK.COM;1
33 5-MAY-2008 18:24
7 files.
Cheers,
Hein.
--------------------------- list_backup -----------------
#include <sys$examples:backdef.h>
#include <secdef.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <rms.h>
#define DNS ".BCK"
int SYS$CRMPSC(), SYS$OPEN();
char *types[] =3D {"NULL","SUMM","VOLU","FILE","VBN ",
"PHYS","LBN ","FID ","EXT_","567_", "????"};
main (int argc, char *argv[]) {
struct { char *lo; char *hi; } retadr =3D {0,0};
struct FAB fab;
struct BRHDEF *brh;
struct BBHDEF *bbh;
int stat, max_type;
if (2 !=3D argc) return 16;
fab =3D cc$rms_fab;
fab.fab$v_ufo =3D 1;
fab.fab$l_fna =3D argv[1];
fab.fab$b_fns =3D strlen( argv[1] );
fab.fab$l_dna =3D DNS;
fab.fab$b_dns =3D sizeof DNS;
stat =3D SYS$OPEN ( &fab );
if (!(stat&1)) return stat;
stat =3D SYS$CRMPSC ( &retadr, &retadr, 0, SEC$M_EXPREG, 0, 0, 0, fab.fab
$l_stv, 0, 0, 0, 0 );
if (!(stat&1)) return stat;
brh =3D (struct BRHDEF *) (retadr.lo + BBH$K_LENGTH) ;
max_type =3D sizeof ( types ) / sizeof ( char * ) - 1;
while ( brh < (struct BRHDEF *) retadr.hi ) {
int rtype =3D brh->BRH$W_RTYPE;
if (rtype > max_type) rtype =3D max_type;
printf ("%08x, %04x, %s, %s\n", brh, brh->BRH$W_RSIZE,
types[rtype],
(brh->BRH$R_FILL_5_. BRH$R_FILL_6_.BRH$V_HEADONLY)?
"HEADONLY": "");
if (0 =3D=3D rtype) break;
brh =3D (struct BRHDEF *) ((char *) brh + BRH$K_LENGTH + brh->BRH
$W_RSIZE);
}
}
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:32:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 7:03=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.c=
om>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheu...@gmail.com> writes:
> >Code appended below.
> >The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the
> >reader. SMOP! =A0:-)
>
> Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet
> with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. =A0I remember days when
> I could read DCL code posted to usenet. =A0This code is now usenot.
Oops sorry 'bout that. Looks good to me.
Except that it indicates 'quoted text' for the last two lines with
closing braces.
I use groups.google.com, and used to use newsgroups through eisner as
characted interface.
I'll try to find an other reader to see what and how it comes accross
wrong.
I don't suppose you are interested in trying for example google groups
to see if looks ok there.
Hein.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:31:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <0baf8275-e667-40e6-9943-73f2660108d9@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 3:02=A0pm, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" <heinvandenheu...@gmail.com> a =E9crit dans le
> message de news:
> dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 18, 6:30 pm, Malcolm Dunnett <noth...@spammers.are.scum> wrote:
>
> > > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's
> > > content
> > > is garbage".
> =A0> No.
>
> > > Well yes, in the backup container.
> > > Do you still have the container?
> > > Backup / list [/full] =A0does not show it, but it knows it.
>
> > > I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag.
>
> Thanks for spending time on this, but I used backup to move the file from
> disk to disk. No saveset.
> It appears like the file is bad (well that's not actually proven), but
> there's no way for me to tell. And others in this ng agree with that.
>
> I tried to find some recognizable pattern in the file that would tell if =
the
> data inside is good or not, but it is not conclusive.
> Some good files do not show the pattern and yet are usable.
>
> Point is, I always use /IGNORE=3DNOBACKP to move these files around. Ther=
e's a
> problem with the software reading the copied files, and I cannot prove th=
at
> the data is good. The program does not tell wheter it doesn't like the da=
ta
> in a specific file (there are a dozen of them), it just crashes. We don=
=E8t
> know why. So obviously they say that my file is probably bad.
>
> Is that a problem with the file, ? I don't know.
>
> I don't think there`s a way out of this.
>
> The worst thing is that after trying the operation a 3rd time, it succeed=
ed.
> Did I really forget /INGORE=3DNOBACKUP 2 times ?
> Everything is possible, I guess, but there`s no way to tell if I did or n=
ot.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
> Syltrem
Isn't there something at the beginning of these files that's
recognizable? Can you look at a dump of another version of the same
type of file and see if the two look anything alike? Or have you tried
this already (sorry if I missed it in the thread)?
AEF
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:33:16 -0400
From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>
Subject: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup ?
Message-ID: <iWyAk.128510$6p1.1514@en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com>
As in the subject...
I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else.
x.x is set to NOBACKUP
I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP
because I did it purposefully
%BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP
But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files.
The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by
looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains valid
data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a
header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case.
How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ?
Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal
file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the file
does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ?
Thanks !
--
Syltrem
http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en français)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:06:29 -0400
From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <spzAk.140064$5p1.72865@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com>
<Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:faa0e799-b226-421d-b64a-e965fb55e451@b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 18, 1:33 pm, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> As in the subject...
>
> I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else.
>
> x.x is set to NOBACKUP
>
> I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using
> BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP
> because I did it purposefully
> %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP
>
> But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files.
>
> The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by
> looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains
> valid
> data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a
> header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case.
>
> How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ?
> Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal
> file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the
> file
> does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ?
>
> This one is easy: the copied file has garbage in it. BACKUP told
> you so. All DIRECTORY tells you is, essentially, about the file
> organization and size, nothing about its contents (data).
>
> The reason for setting a file NOBACKUP is to avoid spending time
> coping the contents of a file that are known will not be usable,
> e.g.,
> a pagefile or swapfile, or indeed, certain kinds of database file
> (which is why databases include their own backup utilities).
>
> You *must* use Backup/Ignore=NoBackup if you want to copy
> the data in a file rather than just allocating space for it.
>
> -Ken
Hi Ken
I know all of that.
If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=NOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ?
That's what I want to know.
As you sais there is garbage in my file. But the original file also contains
data that looks like garbege to human eyes so I cannot tell just by looking
at the file's contents.
Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content
is garbage".
Thanks
Syltrem
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 07:56:16 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <oyXpn63eGUOc@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <iWyAk.128510$6p1.1514@en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com>, "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:
>
> How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ?
> Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal
> file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the file
> does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ?
If you copies the file/nobackup, then what is in the file is useless,
unless the security settings on your system will allow you to use
the new file to scavenge data from whatever was in those blocks
before. Unless you happen to have been making and deleting lots of
copies of the original file on the same disk, any resemblance between
the data in the original and new is completly coincidental. Even if
you have been making and deleting lots of copies the data wouldn't
likely be where you expected it.
BACKUP of a file marked /NOBACKUP, without overriding that, simply
does not read the data blocks. The file header is all it has to read
to create a matching file. If you had put it in a saveset instead of
using BACKUP to copy the file, only the file header would actually be
in the saveset.
If you use COPY, however, /NOBACKUP is not relavent.
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 07:57:35 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <di3G6x7DeBO7@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <spzAk.140064$5p1.72865@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com>, "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:
>
> I know all of that.
> If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=NOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ?
You'll have to look at the data with something that can tell it's not
right.
> Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content
> is garbage".
No.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:02:48 -0400
From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <zHSAk.113507$C65.58440@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com>
"Hein RMS van den Heuvel" <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com> a écrit dans le
message de news:
dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae220@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 18, 6:30 pm, Malcolm Dunnett <noth...@spammers.are.scum> wrote:
> > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's
> > content
> > is garbage".
> No.
> >
> > Well yes, in the backup container.
> > Do you still have the container?
> > Backup / list [/full] does not show it, but it knows it.
> >
> > I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag.
Thanks for spending time on this, but I used backup to move the file from
disk to disk. No saveset.
It appears like the file is bad (well that's not actually proven), but
there's no way for me to tell. And others in this ng agree with that.
I tried to find some recognizable pattern in the file that would tell if the
data inside is good or not, but it is not conclusive.
Some good files do not show the pattern and yet are usable.
Point is, I always use /IGNORE=NOBACKP to move these files around. There's a
problem with the software reading the copied files, and I cannot prove that
the data is good. The program does not tell wheter it doesn't like the data
in a specific file (there are a dozen of them), it just crashes. We donèt
know why. So obviously they say that my file is probably bad.
Is that a problem with the file, ? I don't know.
I don't think there`s a way out of this.
The worst thing is that after trying the operation a 3rd time, it succeeded.
Did I really forget /INGORE=NOBACKUP 2 times ?
Everything is possible, I guess, but there`s no way to tell if I did or not.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Syltrem
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:25:07 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <tqadnZk9Y-YhW0_VnZ2dnUVZ_tbinZ2d@comcast.com>
Syltrem wrote:
> As in the subject...
>
> I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else.
>
> x.x is set to NOBACKUP
>
> I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP
> because I did it purposefully
> %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP
>
> But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files.
>
> The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by
> looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains valid
> data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a
> header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case.
>
> How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ?
> Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal
> file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the file
> does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ?
>
> Thanks !
>
$ BACKUP /LIST=MUMBLE.LIS MUMBLE.BCK/SAVESET
$ SEARCH MUMBLE.LIS X.X
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:30:23 -0700
From: Malcolm Dunnett <nothome@spammers.are.scum>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <48d2d680@flight>
Syltrem wrote:
>
>
> I know all of that.
> If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=NOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ?
>
> That's what I want to know.
I think the general answer is "you can't".
You could set the volumes to have highwater marking enabled, then the
"junk" file would contain all zeros, However that can slow down file
extend operations considerably.
If your problem is more specific (eg these are Oracle tablespace files)
then you could presumably write a program (or DCL script) to examine
part of the file looking for some specific pattern that would be
extremely unlikely to occur in a file of random blocks.
I suppose the right answer may be "if you care about preserving the
contents of your file don't set it "/NOBACKUP".
> As you sais there is garbage in my file. But the original file also contains
> data that looks like garbege to human eyes so I cannot tell just by looking
> at the file's contents.
>
> Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content
> is garbage".
No.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:29:24 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <48d30117$0$12367$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Syltrem wrote:
> Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content
> is garbage".
Nop. You would need to look at the logs of the backup to see what was
done and if the data was copied or not.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:27:15 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <48d30097$0$12367$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Syltrem wrote:
> I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP
> because I did it purposefully
> %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP
This would be a serious bug. I did a disk to disk backup/image a couple
days ago, and checking the log, I got no %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP messages
I had:
$backup/image/ignore=(interlock,nobackup)/init/noalias/record -
/progress_report=300 $disk4 $10$dqa0:
I had warnings about files being opened for write, but none about the
files marked nobackup.
> But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files.
That is correct. Restoring a file that was marked "nobackup" results in
a file being created with the same attributes, including allocations and
blocks used but with unusable data inside.
> How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ?
You would have to look at the backup logs or the save set to see if
/ignore=nobackup was specified when the data was backed up.
Question:
If I backup/image/ignore=nobackup disk1: disk2:[000000]disk1.save/save
and then backup/image disk2:[000000]disk1.save/save disk3:
Would I need to add a /ignore=nobackup so that the restore operation
would also ignore the nobackup bit in the saveset and copy the data from
the saveset to the disk ?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:54:57 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup
Message-ID: <48d40438$0$12409$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Syltrem wrote:
> The worst thing is that after trying the operation a 3rd time, it succeeded.
> Did I really forget /INGORE=NOBACKUP 2 times ?
> Everything is possible, I guess, but there`s no way to tell if I did or not.
Is the /IGNORE a positional qualifier in backup ? Is it possible that
placing it at the end would affect the destination and not the source ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christopher Lusardi <clusardi2k@aol.com>
Subject: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Message-ID: <9d7c724a-1af6-490e-87fb-209b57ddb05d@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the
Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow
key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to
go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire
rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to
insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the
forgotten letters in the newly created blanks.
The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was
an accident.
:-)
The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5...
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com>
Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Message-ID: <d81d4203-4e05-4650-ada0-654b61e3621e@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 22, 2:34 pm, Christopher Lusardi <clusard...@aol.com> wrote:
> If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the
> Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow
> key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to
> go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire
> rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to
> insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the
> forgotten letters in the newly created blanks.
>
> The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was
> an accident.
> :-)
>
> The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5...
>
> Chris
Chris,
I do not have a VAX/VMS 5.5 system to check this on, but depending
upon your terminal, you should be able to reset the terminal width
using SET TERMINAL/WIDTH=132. The cursor editing keys will then be
usable for a longer line.
Personally, I would create a command file and edit it using the
editor. It is safer, and usable beyond the present login session.
- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:47:24 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Message-ID: <00A80052.F8C7B72F@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <9d7c724a-1af6-490e-87fb-209b57ddb05d@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Christopher Lusardi <clusardi2k@aol.com> writes:
>If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the
>Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow
>key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to
>go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire
>rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to
>insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the
>forgotten letters in the newly created blanks.
>
>The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was
>an accident.
>:-)
>
>The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5...
>
>Chris
Recall; ctrl H (goes to beginning of line); arrow-key to where you need
to add charaters; ctrl-A to insert; enter characters; carriage-return to
enter amended command.
Example:
$ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters
$ <up arrow recall>
$ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters
-------------------------------cursor here ----------------------------^
type ctrl-H
$ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters
--^-----cursor here
type arrows to move cursor
$ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters
------------------^-----cursor here
ctrl-A to insert
$ ! this is a really long command line but I forgot to add two characters
type carrage-return
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:21:04 GMT
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?=
Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Message-ID: <Q6TBk.2660$U5.5347@newsb.telia.net>
Christopher Lusardi wrote:
> If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the
> Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow
> key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to
> go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire
> rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to
> insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the
> forgotten letters in the newly created blanks.
>
> The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was
> an accident.
> :-)
>
> The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5...
>
> Chris
Personaly, I always have SET TERM/INSERT in my login.com...
Or (if on another system) use <ctrl-A> when needed.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:38:25 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt
Message-ID: <48d84960$0$1574$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Christopher Lusardi wrote:
> If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the
> Vax prompt I am forced to do the following.
If the command exceeds one line on the screen, then VMS is pretty bad at
handling it. You need to erase characters from the end until the cursor
moves to the last character on the line you need to edit. Then delete
enough characters at end of line to make room for insertion. Then use
the left arrow to move the cursor (without deleting) to the area where
you need to insert characters, <ctrl>A to start inserting, insert your
two characfters, then <ctrl>E to get to end of line, and then retype the
complete remainder of the line which you had to erase.
Old cisco switches have better command line editing than VMS.
SET TERM/WIDTH=132 will allow you to recall the command on a longer line
(132 instead of 80) and this makes its editing easier. Once done, you
can set term/width=80 again.
VMS 5.5 lacked certain recall buffer functionality which was added later
on. On recent versions of VMS, you could RECALL/output=myfile.txt then
edit myfile.txt and then RECALL/input=myfile.txt which would reload
the recall buffer with your corrected command.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:41:57 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file
Message-ID: <48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
ajmiester@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi
> I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir.
> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use
> that to check file sizes.
HELP OPEN
HELP READ
HELP CLOSE
This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the
contents going into a symbol.
Then:
HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file
size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can get).
You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the
equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, and
once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol.
F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:05:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file
Message-ID: <2d3d2419-8e7f-4a5b-b348-81d2ed257017@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 17, 4:20=A0pm, ajmies...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi
> =A0 I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir.
What a 'waste'/encumbrance to put it in a file.
DCL's F$SEARCH will gladly find just the right files for you.
files.lis
> ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1
> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis
So that's all of them, or might there be other file in the list?
Or are you seeking to look INTO the zip files and size up teh
contents?
> and use that to check file sizes.
How do you want to do the 'check'?
What data is available to check against?
That every much will define the 'right' tool for the job.
> Does any one have recommendations on how that can be accomplished.
1) get more clear instructions.
2) Write a program to accomplish those instructions
3) Run the program (or script, or ...)
Richard already showed a basic DCL loop to get going.
Here is a perl variant:
Let's create a list of files:
$ dir/nohead/notrail sys$system:set*.exe/out=3Dfiles.tmp
Now list the sizes of the files in that list:
$ perl -lne "chomp; printf qq(%9d %s\n), -s $_, $_" files.tmp
386560 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SET.EXE;1
56832 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETAUDIT.EXE;1
:
Now filter for files with a sub-pattern "hos".
$ perl -ne "chomp; printf (qq(%9d %s\n), -s $_, $_) if /hos/i"
files.tmp
72192 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETSHOSECUR.EXE;1
66560 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETSHOSERVER.EXE;1
315392 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETSHOSHADOW.EXE;1
And now, look ma no hands....
$ perl -e "for (<sys\$system:set*hos*.exe>) { printf qq(%9d %s\n), -s
$_, $_ }"
72192 sys$common:[sysexe]setshosecur.exe
66560 sys$common:[sysexe]setshoserver.exe
315392 sys$common:[sysexe]setshoshadow.exe
Hein.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:15:35 -0400
From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file
Message-ID: <_vsAk.139947$5p1.37797@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com>
Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably
And try
$ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something"
If you know programming, you can do it, now
Syltrem
"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> ajmiester@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi
>> I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir.
>
>> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use
>> that to check file sizes.
>
> HELP OPEN
> HELP READ
> HELP CLOSE
>
> This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the
> contents going into a symbol.
>
> Then:
>
> HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file
> size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can
> get).
>
> You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the
> equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, and
> once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol.
>
> F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:40:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: ajmiester@gmail.com
Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file
Message-ID: <a22b5947-d0e0-44ce-968f-8619f0554af6@l43g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 9:15=A0am, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably
> And try
> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something"
>
> If you know programming, you can do it, now
>
> Syltrem
>
> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
>
>
> > ajmies...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Hi
> >> =A0 I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir.
>
> >> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use
> >> that to check file sizes.
>
> > HELP OPEN
> > HELP READ
> > HELP CLOSE
>
> > This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the
> > contents going into a symbol.
>
> > Then:
>
> > HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES =A0will tell you how you can get the fil=
e
> > size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can
> > get).
>
> > You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the
> > equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, an=
d
> > once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol.
>
> > F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific
Bro files.lis --> Files.lis is a list file which includes
information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro
is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file
ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1
ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1
I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files
uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference
is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames
without the zip extension from the Files.lis file
I am new to DCL prog and tried the following
$ chkname=3D(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip
extensions
$ show symbol chkname
$ filetype1=3Df$extract(16,45,"chkname") ---> extracts files without
the extensions
$ show symbol filetype1
But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for
Aj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:04:02 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file
Message-ID: <ktOdnb63E88WFE_VnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@comcast.com>
ajmiester@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 9:15 am, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably
>> And try
>> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something"
>>
>> If you know programming, you can do it, now
>>
>> Syltrem
>>
>> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
>>
>> news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>> I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir.
>>>> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use
>>>> that to check file sizes.
>>> HELP OPEN
>>> HELP READ
>>> HELP CLOSE
>>> This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the
>>> contents going into a symbol.
>>> Then:
>>> HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file
>>> size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can
>>> get).
>>> You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the
>>> equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, and
>>> once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol.
>>> F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific
>
> Bro files.lis --> Files.lis is a list file which includes
> information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro
> is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file
>
> ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1
> ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1
>
> I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files
> uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference
> is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames
> without the zip extension from the Files.lis file
>
> I am new to DCL prog and tried the following
>
> $ chkname=(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip
> extensions
> $ show symbol chkname
> $ filetype1=f$extract(16,45,"chkname") ---> extracts files without
> the extensions
> $ show symbol filetype1
>
> But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for
> Aj
$ HELP LEXICAL F$PARSE
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: ajmiester@gmail.com
Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file
Message-ID: <426b8e0e-8165-4ebe-a64a-85d825854a46@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 1:04=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 18, 9:15 am, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> >> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably
> >> And try
> >> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something"
>
> >> If you know programming, you can do it, now
>
> >> Syltrem
>
> >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
>
> >>news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
> >>> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Hi
> >>>> =A0 I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir.
> >>>> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use
> >>>> that to check file sizes.
> >>> HELP OPEN
> >>> HELP READ
> >>> HELP CLOSE
> >>> This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the
> >>> contents going into a symbol.
> >>> Then:
> >>> HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES =A0will tell you how you can get the f=
ile
> >>> size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can
> >>> get).
> >>> You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the
> >>> equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, =
and
> >>> once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol.
> >>> F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text -
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific
>
> > Bro files.lis =A0 --> =A0Files.lis is a list file which includes
> > information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro
> > is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file
>
> > ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1
>
> > I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files
> > uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference
> > is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames
> > without the zip extension from the Files.lis file
>
> > I am new to DCL prog and tried the following
>
> > $ chkname=3D(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip
> > extensions
> > $ show symbol chkname
> > $ filetype1=3Df$extract(16,45,"chkname") =A0---> extracts files without
> > the extensions
> > $ show symbol filetype1
>
> > But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for
> > Aj
>
> $ HELP LEXICAL F$PARSE- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanx, that was helpfull
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:35:44 -0400
From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file
Message-ID: <DYyAk.144579$4p1.110389@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com>
HELP is your friend
VMS uses english terms in all commands so it`s easy to find your way through
HELP
Syltrem
<ajmiester@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:426b8e0e-8165-4ebe-a64a-85d825854a46@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 18, 1:04 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 18, 9:15 am, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> >> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably
> >> And try
> >> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something"
>
> >> If you know programming, you can do it, now
>
> >> Syltrem
>
> >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
>
> >>news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
> >>> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Hi
> >>>> I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir.
> >>>> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use
> >>>> that to check file sizes.
> >>> HELP OPEN
> >>> HELP READ
> >>> HELP CLOSE
> >>> This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the
> >>> contents going into a symbol.
> >>> Then:
> >>> HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file
> >>> size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can
> >>> get).
> >>> You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the
> >>> equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file,
> >>> and
> >>> once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol.
> >>> F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text -
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific
>
> > Bro files.lis --> Files.lis is a list file which includes
> > information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro
> > is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file
>
> > ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1
> > ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1
>
> > I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files
> > uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference
> > is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames
> > without the zip extension from the Files.lis file
>
> > I am new to DCL prog and tried the following
>
> > $ chkname=(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip
> > extensions
> > $ show symbol chkname
> > $ filetype1=f$extract(16,45,"chkname") ---> extracts files without
> > the extensions
> > $ show symbol filetype1
>
> > But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for
> > Aj
>
> $ HELP LEXICAL F$PARSE- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanx, that was helpfull
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:12:57 -0400
From: "John Smith" <John.Smith@NotTheOneAtHP.com>
Subject: Re: HP to axe 24,6000 jobs
Message-ID: <11ee2$48d5210d$4c0aaa0d$30973@TEKSAVVY.COM>
"Phaeton" <phaeton@nsw.chariot.net.au> wrote in message
news:48cf5aa9$1@news.comindico.com.au...
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> BBC reports this morning that HP is to axe 24,600 jobs worldwide, half
>> of which will be in the USA. There is mention that is is related to the
>> recent acquisition of EDS. This cut represents 7.4% of its workforce.
>>
>> Since VMS was recently compacted from ist original ZKO size to fit into
>> a couple of spare offices in the basement of some existing HP building,
>> it is not known how many job cuts VMS will get this time around.
>>
>> Good luck to VMS engineering/admin staff.
>
>
>
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/16/2365482.htm?section=justin
>
>
> Hewlett-Packard to slash 24,600 jobs
>
>
> United States technology giant Hewlett-Packard has announced it will slash
> 24,600 jobs worldwide over the next three years.
>
> The cuts are part of its integration with computer services firm
> Electronic Data Systems.
>
> The job cuts would allow HP "to restructure the EDS business group to
> streamline costs,
> invest in growth and drive shareholder value," HP said in a statement.
>
> About 7.5 per cent of the combined work force would be affected, with
> about half of the
> cuts taking place in the United States, HP said.
>
> The work force reduction aims to "streamline the combined company's
> services businesses,"
> and once complete is expected to "result in annual cost savings of
> approximately $2.2 billion."
>
> In May, HP inked a deal to buy the Texas-based technology company for
> $US25 per share.
> After approval by shareholders as well as US and foreign regulators, the
> acquisition was
> finalised in August.
>
> The new HP services includes annual revenues of more than $47 billion and
> 210,000
> employees, operating in more than 80 countries.
>
> The deal was expected to create a global powerhouse in computer services
> to compete
> against IBM.
>
> - AFP
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Cheers, Csaba
When announcements like these are made the majority of the cuts will be made
in the divisions mentioned in the news release, but large numbers of cuts
will be made in other divisions as well -- using the big cuts as a
smokescreen.
Companies the size of HP will aggregate the upcoming cuts into one
announcement rather than sending out press releases month after month for
500 jobs lost here or there. One press release, one news cycle, now look at
all the shiny new toys we have to sell you. Story over. Next.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:50:16 -0600
From: Keith Parris <keithparris_nospam@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Intermittent RWSCS state
Message-ID: <gb90e8$cv2$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>
For a sanity-check, you might run LOCKTIME.COM from the V6 Freeware CD
directory [KP_LOCKTOOLS] to see what averasge lock-request time is from
each of the nodes to each of the other nodes, to see if a node or path
seems unusually slow.
If you run LOCK_ACTV_*.COM (obtain that from the same place) you'll get
a cluster-wide summary of the locking activity. Look for cases where the
node with the highest locking activity rate on a busy tree is not the
master node (the master node is indicated with an asterisk). VMS tries
to keep the lock tree mastered on the node with the highest activity
level at any given point in time, but use of non-zero PE1 values or an
imbalance of LOCKDIRWT values between nodes (or saturation of a CPU in
interrupt state) can prevent lock mastership from being on the optimal node.
If you run LCKQUE.COM from the same place you can detect cases where
process are forced to wait for their turn at locks because of slowness.
Availability Manager's Lock Contention data collection can also help
with this.
Saturation of a CPU in interrupt state could cause it to respond slowly
to SCS messages (including lock requests) and thus cause RWSCS states on
other nodes. I'd check T4 data (or use $MONITOR
MODES/ALL/INTERVAL=1/CPU=(0,1,2...), looking for interrupt state time
above 80% or so on any CPU in the box.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:38:02 -0700
From: Malcolm Dunnett <nothome@spammers.are.scum>
Subject: Re: Is there an updated Ghostscript for VMS?
Message-ID: <u2kAk.6477$PS3.3456@newsfe06.iad>
Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote:
> I use Ghostscript a lot on OpenVMS and got several earlier versions to
> compile so I feel your pain. Please post the fixes when you are done. I
> can provide some serious testing on a new version fairly quickly.
>
I've tested it on a few of the examples, converting them to PDF (this
is the function I mainly wanted it for). Seems to work ok.
I have made a zipped backup of the distro with my changes in it, you
can download it at http://records.viu.ca/~dunnett/gs863vms.zip. It
builds clean under VMS 8.3 on Alpha and Itanium. Use the file build_vms.com
There's a text file with diffs of the files I changed at
http://records.viu.ca/~dunnett/readme.changes
Thanks to all for your help, I'll stop annoying everyone now.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:53:31 -0400
From: "John Smith" <John.Smith@NotTheOneAtHP.com>
Subject: Jabber & VMS - what happens next?
Message-ID: <2639$48d525a0$4c0aaa0d$8120@TEKSAVVY.COM>
http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2008/corp_091908.html?POSITION=LINK&COUNTRY_SITE=us&CAMPAIGN=NewsAtCiscoLatestNewsfromCDCHP&CREATIVE=LINK1&REFERRING_SITE=CISCO.COMHOMEPAGE
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:27:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: IanMiller <gxys@uk2.net>
Subject: Re: Jabber & VMS - what happens next?
Message-ID: <92050827-925a-4b6e-8a1c-d07eae224515@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 20, 5:53=A0pm, "John Smith" <John.Sm...@NotTheOneAtHP.com> wrote:
> http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2008/corp_091908.html?POSITION=3DLINK&CO..=
.
CommunigatePro runs on VMS and does instant messaging. I would not be
surprised if it can talk to Jabber based systems as those use a
commonly implemented IM protocol.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:47:05 +0000
From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Jabber & VMS - what happens next?
Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED60D7DC7@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IanMiller [mailto:gxys@uk2.net]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 12:28 PM
> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Jabber & VMS - what happens next?
>
> On Sep 20, 5:53 pm, "John Smith" <John.Sm...@NotTheOneAtHP.com> wrote:
> >
> http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2008/corp_091908.html?POSITION=3DLINK&CO..
> .
>
>
> CommunigatePro runs on VMS and does instant messaging. I would not be
> surprised if it can talk to Jabber based systems as those use a
> commonly implemented IM protocol.
Just to emphasize Ian's note on Communigate Pro - it runs on Alpha and
Integrity. It can also be used to replace Exchange back end servers with
A stable, secure, HA alternative & still keep the Outlook client (or
just about any other email client).
For those who would like a pretty cool demo of Communigate Pro,
check out:
http://www.communigate.com/enterprise/pronto.html (Pronto demo very
cool)
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/mail.html (bit dated as current
V5.2 is out for Alpha as well with more features)
http://www.communigate.com/enterprise/large_uc.html (features)
They also have free try before you buy version available that is
restricted to 5 accounts for testing out.
Regards
Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)
OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:34:34 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Loose Cannon-dian
Message-ID: <pjQNEpWWx0N5@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <6jd269F2n1bdU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
> You make statements like this and accuse others of FUD? Just because
> you have a bias against MS doesn't mean any of the crap you spout about
> its security are actually true. Just because your Gramma's WindowsME
> got hacked doesn't mean there are no serious Windows Servers running
> securely.
ROTFLOL.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:18:10 +0200
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@update.uu.se>
Subject: Re: Loose Cannon-dian
Message-ID: <gavjnd$muk$1@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
bugs@signedness.org skrev:
> On Sep 15, 5:42 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob
> Koehler) wrote:
>> In article <1cddb0fc-c644-4c38-9d33-0825a9a4b...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, b...@signedness.org writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>> So let me ask you what mechanisms VMS have in place to make it harder/
>>> prevent buggy programs from being exploited?
>> On VMS, even if you have a fully priviledges account, you don't
>> automagically get to exhaust any resource other than disk space.
>> For all the others you have to add code to raise your limits.
>>
>
> Well obviously you can do that on UNIX too (change root's resource
> allocation)..
The resource allocation control you have in Unix is nothing like in VMS.
There is a lot of things that you can't limit in Unix. The two are in fact not
even comparable in this aspect.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:24:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de
Subject: mailing list GW OK?
Message-ID: <a762ad98-112e-408b-a4bc-e774202f01f2@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
Hi,
I saw several messages in the newsgroup comp.os.vms that are not sent
to my email account?
Do others mailing list subscribers see the same problem or is it just
my local problem?
regards
Eberhard
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:51:23 -0500
From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton)
Subject: Re: mailing list GW OK?
Message-ID: <slrngdgbrr.t2.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>
In article <a762ad98-112e-408b-a4bc-e774202f01f2@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I saw several messages in the newsgroup comp.os.vms that are not sent
>to my email account?
>
>Do others mailing list subscribers see the same problem or is it just
>my local problem?
>
>regards
>Eberhard
Hi Eberhard,
During the SMG "fun", I noticed a lot of messages were missing from INFO-VAX
(I'm assuming that this is the email list that you are referring to). Google
groups kept me up-to-date until I bit the bullet, and unsubscribed from
INFO-VAX, and started running my own news client on my VMS machine. I can say
with almost total certainty that I've not missed a message on c.o.v. since.
INFO-VAX is a good resource if you are limited to email access on the 'net, but
it seems to be limited. I wonder if some of the messages were "quarantined"
by questionable language, or some other form of filtering. Would the moderator
of INFO-VAX be available to comment?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:38:33 -0600
From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>
Subject: Manipulating debug and traceback flags
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080919113643.02066888@raptor.psccos.com>
I'm looking for a couple of old programs, called SETEXEFLAGS and
PATCH_TRACEBACK, that used to be hanging around in cyberspace someplace. I
need these to manipulate the TRACEBACK flag in an AXP image. While I can
probably figure it out, it's easier to just compile & run something
existing. <grin>
------
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this |
| Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary |
| Process Software | and those who don't." |
| http://www.process.com | |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:16:39 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: Manipulating debug and traceback flags
Message-ID: <00A7FDF3.2DA2596B@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <6.1.2.0.2.20080919113643.02066888@raptor.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:
>I'm looking for a couple of old programs, called SETEXEFLAGS and
>PATCH_TRACEBACK, that used to be hanging around in cyberspace someplace. I
>need these to manipulate the TRACEBACK flag in an AXP image. While I can
>probably figure it out, it's easier to just compile & run something
>existing. <grin>
What version of VMS? If there PATCH, I can tell you how to do it quickly.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com>
Subject: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <fd005e43-ddae-4eb4-bd4a-ace3e13dfef6@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole'
games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying
to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble
with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found,
isn't helping me out :-/....
Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated
(or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still
love to see the correct source code here)...
Regards,
Joe
~~
$ macro putqio.mar
.word 0 ;
^
%IMAC-E-DATINCODE, data in code stream
at line number 75 in file WOPR_USER:
[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
PUT_QIO::
^
%IMAC-E-GLOBENTRY, global entry point PUT_QIO must be declared
at line number 74 in file WOPR_USER:
[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
.end
^
%IMAC-E-PREVERROR, previous errors prevent further analysis
at line number 86 in file WOPR_USER:
[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
~~~ putqio.mar
; PUTQIO - contains two related functions, PUT_BUFFER and
PUT_QIO.
; PUT_BUFFER accepts an (row,col) cursor address, and
a
; string. Cursor positioning characters are added
into
; the buffer in front of the string. Buffer dumps if
it
; becomes too full.
; PUT_QIO performs the buffer dump operation. It can
be
; called externally, or by PUT_BUFFER.
;
;
; Globals used: (Declared in MORIA pascal code)
; cursor_r: array of 24 strings (6 bytes)
; curlen_r: length of each row string
; cursor_c: array of 80 strings (6 bytes)
; curlen_c: length of each col string
; cursor_l: Total length of row and col
; row_first: Boolean (1,0)
; 1 - Row,Col format
; 0 - Col,Row format
;
; Registers:
; R0 Used by MOVC
; R1 Used by MOVC
; R2 Used by MOVC
; R3 Used by MOVC
; R4 Used by MOVC
; R5 Used by MOVC
;
; This IO routine does no index checking.
;
.title PUT_QIO Build and dump IO buffer\
.ident /put_qio/
.psect IOBUF$DATA
;
IO$_WRITEVBLK: .long 48 ; See STARLET ($IODEF)
out_buf: .blkb 1024 ; Size in bytes of buffer
out_len: .long 0 ; Current length of buffer
;
;
.psect IO$CODE,pic,con,rel,lcl,shr,exe,rd,nowrt,2
.entry PUT_BUFFER,^M<R2,R3,R4,R5>
;
movab out_buf,r3 ; Address of output buffer.
addl2 out_len,r3 ; Buffer may be partially
full.
cmpl row_first,#0 ; Test for row first
bgtr 1$ ; Branch to row,col format
; Col,Row format
mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col.
movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord.
movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters.
mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row.
movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord.
movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters.
brb 2$ ; Branch to copy string
1$: ; Row,Col format
mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row.
movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord.
movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters.
mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col.
movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord.
movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters.
2$: ; Copy String
tstw @4(ap) ; No string?
beql 3$ ; No move needed.
movl 4(ap),r1 ; Move address of string arg.
movc3 @4(ap),2(r1),(r3) ; Move string arg into output
buff.
3$:
addw3 cursor_l,@4(ap),r1 ; Total length of new output
addw2 r1,out_len ; Total length of saved output
cmpw out_len,#900 ; Buffer getting full?
bgtr DUMP_QIO ; Output the buffer...
ret ; return from PUT_BUFFER
;
; PUT_QIO entry point
PUT_QIO::
.word 0 ;
DUMP_QIO:
$QIOW_S EFN=#6, - ; Unique event flag
CHAN=channel, - ; Output the buffer
FUNC=IO$_WRITEVBLK, - ; Write virtual block
P1=out_buf, - ; Address of buffer
P2=out_len ; Buffers current length
;
movw #0,out_len ; Clear buffer;
ret ; Return from PUT_QIO
;
.end
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:56:26 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <00A7FE1A.4361D006@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <fd005e43-ddae-4eb4-bd4a-ace3e13dfef6@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com> writes:
>Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole'
>games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying
>to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble
>with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found,
>isn't helping me out :-/....
>
>Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated
>(or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still
>love to see the correct source code here)...
>
>Regards,
>
>Joe
>
>~~
>
>$ macro putqio.mar
>
> .word 0 ;
>^
>%IMAC-E-DATINCODE, data in code stream
>at line number 75 in file WOPR_USER:
>[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
>
>PUT_QIO::
>^
>%IMAC-E-GLOBENTRY, global entry point PUT_QIO must be declared
>at line number 74 in file WOPR_USER:
>[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
>
> .end
>^
>%IMAC-E-PREVERROR, previous errors prevent further analysis
>at line number 86 in file WOPR_USER:
>[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
>
>
>~~~ putqio.mar
>
> ; PUTQIO - contains two related functions, PUT_BUFFER and
>PUT_QIO.
> ; PUT_BUFFER accepts an (row,col) cursor address, and
>a
> ; string. Cursor positioning characters are added
>into
> ; the buffer in front of the string. Buffer dumps if
>it
> ; becomes too full.
> ; PUT_QIO performs the buffer dump operation. It can
>be
> ; called externally, or by PUT_BUFFER.
> ;
> ;
> ; Globals used: (Declared in MORIA pascal code)
> ; cursor_r: array of 24 strings (6 bytes)
> ; curlen_r: length of each row string
> ; cursor_c: array of 80 strings (6 bytes)
> ; curlen_c: length of each col string
> ; cursor_l: Total length of row and col
> ; row_first: Boolean (1,0)
> ; 1 - Row,Col format
> ; 0 - Col,Row format
> ;
> ; Registers:
> ; R0 Used by MOVC
> ; R1 Used by MOVC
> ; R2 Used by MOVC
> ; R3 Used by MOVC
> ; R4 Used by MOVC
> ; R5 Used by MOVC
> ;
> ; This IO routine does no index checking.
> ;
> .title PUT_QIO Build and dump IO buffer\
> .ident /put_qio/
> .psect IOBUF$DATA
> ;
> IO$_WRITEVBLK: .long 48 ; See STARLET ($IODEF)
> out_buf: .blkb 1024 ; Size in bytes of buffer
> out_len: .long 0 ; Current length of buffer
> ;
> ;
> .psect IO$CODE,pic,con,rel,lcl,shr,exe,rd,nowrt,2
> .entry PUT_BUFFER,^M<R2,R3,R4,R5>
> ;
> movab out_buf,r3 ; Address of output buffer.
> addl2 out_len,r3 ; Buffer may be partially
>full.
> cmpl row_first,#0 ; Test for row first
> bgtr 1$ ; Branch to row,col format
> ; Col,Row format
> mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col.
> movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord.
> movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters.
> mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row.
> movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord.
> movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters.
> brb 2$ ; Branch to copy string
>1$: ; Row,Col format
> mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row.
> movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord.
> movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters.
> mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col.
> movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord.
> movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters.
>2$: ; Copy String
> tstw @4(ap) ; No string?
> beql 3$ ; No move needed.
> movl 4(ap),r1 ; Move address of string arg.
> movc3 @4(ap),2(r1),(r3) ; Move string arg into output
>buff.
>3$:
> addw3 cursor_l,@4(ap),r1 ; Total length of new output
> addw2 r1,out_len ; Total length of saved output
> cmpw out_len,#900 ; Buffer getting full?
> bgtr DUMP_QIO ; Output the buffer...
> ret ; return from PUT_BUFFER
> ;
> ; PUT_QIO entry point
>PUT_QIO::
> .word 0 ;
delete: .word 0
insert: .call_entry
>DUMP_QIO:
> $QIOW_S EFN=#6, - ; Unique event flag
> CHAN=channel, - ; Output the buffer
> FUNC=IO$_WRITEVBLK, - ; Write virtual block
> P1=out_buf, - ; Address of buffer
> P2=out_len ; Buffers current length
> ;
> movw #0,out_len ; Clear buffer;
> ret ; Return from PUT_QIO
> ;
> .end
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:15:37 +0000 (UTC)
From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <gb1fb9$tvf$1@pcls4.std.com>
jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com> writes:
>Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole'
>games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying
>to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble
>with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found,
>isn't helping me out :-/....
>Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated
>(or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still
>love to see the correct source code here)...
The macro assembler (really compiler) on Alpha and Itanic is real picky
about some things the VAX assembler has no problem with. One is that
entry points must be properly defined. Use a .entry statement for the
putqio and that should take care of the problem. That's really the only
problem.
.entry putqio,^M<>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 03:54:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: urbancamo <mark@wickensonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <44659357-0359-4304-b495-7b5e34cf020c@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
When you get it working, be sure to post a link to the binaries on
comp.os.vms.
Alternatively, I'll upload them to my VMS stuff page.
Good job!
Regards, Mark
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:52:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com>
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <1a59b7ac-0abb-41fe-bd84-d8570a4caf0a@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 6:01=A0pm, jferraro <jferr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole'
> games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying
> to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble
> with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found,
> isn't helping me out :-/....
>
> Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated
> (or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still
> love to see the correct source code here)...
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe
>
> ~~
>
> $ macro putqio.mar
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .word =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ;
> ^
> %IMAC-E-DATINCODE, data in code stream
> at line number 75 in file WOPR_USER:
> [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
>
> PUT_QIO::
> ^
> %IMAC-E-GLOBENTRY, global entry point PUT_QIO must be declared
> at line number 74 in file WOPR_USER:
> [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .end
> ^
> %IMAC-E-PREVERROR, previous errors prevent further analysis
> at line number 86 in file WOPR_USER:
> [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9
>
> ~~~ putqio.mar
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; PUTQIO - contains two related functions, PUT_BUFFER and
> PUT_QIO.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0PUT_BUFFER accepts an (row,col) curs=
or address, and
> a
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0string. =A0Cursor positioning charac=
ters are added
> into
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the buffer in front of the string. =
=A0Buffer dumps if
> it
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0becomes too full.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0PUT_QIO performs the buffer dump ope=
ration. =A0It can
> be
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0called externally, or by PUT_BUFFER.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 Globals used: =A0 (Declared in MORIA pascal=
code)
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cursor_r: =A0 =A0 =A0 array=
of 24 strings (6 bytes)
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 curlen_r: =A0 =A0 =A0 lengt=
h of each row string
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cursor_c: =A0 =A0 =A0 array=
of 80 strings (6 bytes)
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 curlen_c: =A0 =A0 =A0 lengt=
h of each col string
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cursor_l: =A0 =A0 =A0 Total=
length of row and col
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 row_first: =A0 =A0 =A0Boole=
an (1,0)
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 1 - Row,Col format
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 0 - Col,Row format
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 Registers:
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R0 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R1 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R2 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R3 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R4 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R5 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 This IO routine does no index checking.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .title =A0PUT_QIO =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Build and dump IO buffe=
r\
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .ident =A0/put_qio/
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .psect =A0IOBUF$DATA
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 IO$_WRITEVBLK: =A0.long =A0 48 =A0 =A0 =A0; See STARLET (=
$IODEF)
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 out_buf: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0.blkb =A0 1024 =A0 =A0; Size in b=
ytes of buffer
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 out_len: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0.long =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Current=
length of buffer
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .psect =A0IO$CODE,pic,con,rel,lcl,shr,exe,rd,nowrt,2
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .entry =A0PUT_BUFFER,^M<R2,R3,R4,R5>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 out_buf,r3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address=
of output buffer.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 addl2 =A0 out_len,r3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Buffer =
may be partially
> full.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cmpl =A0 =A0row_first,#0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Test fo=
r row first
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 bgtr =A0 =A01$ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0; Branch to row,col format
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ; Col,Row format
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,12(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; (8 bytes * =
index) for col.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_c-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need=
ed col coord.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move col cursor=
characters.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,8(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; (8 bytes =
* index) for row.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_r-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need=
ed row coord.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move row cursor=
characters.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 brb =A0 =A0 2$ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0; Branch to copy string
> 1$: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 ; Row,Col format
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,8(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; (8 bytes =
* index) for row.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_r-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need=
ed row coord.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move row cursor=
characters.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,12(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; (8 bytes * =
index) for col.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_c-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need=
ed col coord.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move col cursor=
characters.
> 2$: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 ; Copy String
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 tstw =A0 =A0@4(ap) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; N=
o string?
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 beql =A0 =A03$ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0; No move needed.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movl =A0 =A04(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Mov=
e address of string arg.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 @4(ap),2(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Move string arg=
into output
> buff.
> 3$:
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 addw3 =A0 cursor_l,@4(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Total length of=
new output
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 addw2 =A0 r1,out_len =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Total l=
ength of saved output
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cmpw =A0 =A0out_len,#900 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Buffer =
getting full?
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 bgtr =A0 =A0DUMP_QIO =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Out=
put the buffer...
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ret =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 ; return from PUT_BUFFER
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ; PUT_QIO entry point
> PUT_QIO::
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .word =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ;
> DUMP_QIO:
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $QIOW_S EFN=3D#6, - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Unique =
event flag
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CHAN=3Dchannel, - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Outpu=
t the buffer
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 FUNC=3DIO$_WRITEVBLK, - =A0 ; Write virtu=
al block
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 P1=3Dout_buf, - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Add=
ress of buffer
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 P2=3Dout_len =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0;=
Buffers current length
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movw =A0 =A0#0,out_len =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Clear=
buffer;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ret =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 ; Return from PUT_QIO
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 ;
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .end
Joe,
The MACRO-32 Assembler on the VAX (MACRO32) just converts lines into
binary and writes an object deck.
As has been noted, the task of the MACRO32 Compiler on Alpha and
Itanium is a bit more complex. On VAX, all that is necessary is that
the bits are in memory as defined by the architecture. On the other
architectures, the MACRO32 compiler compiles the code. Using the
example of the .WORD directive, that is a data directive. While it
generates the correct bits, it is ambiguous as to how those bits are
actually used (e.g., executable or data).
There is a MACRO32 porting guide in the documentation set on the
OpenVMS www site at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5601/5601PRO.HTML
- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:07:42 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <00A7FEA1.F26C26C6@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <1a59b7ac-0abb-41fe-bd84-d8570a4caf0a@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com> writes:
>{...snip...}
>There is a MACRO32 porting guide in the documentation set on the
>OpenVMS www site at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5601/5601PRO.HTML
The only problem was the stupid .WORD 0 declaring the procedure entry
point. I hated to see this in VAX code too!
Bob, please, please, please fix your newsreader settings. The enitre
portion of the original posting which you quoted was q-p'ed the news-
reader you used to post your reply.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <e4d505ab-5331-4a11-9ef9-fef5a0a2a2dc@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 20, 6:54=A0am, urbancamo <m...@wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
> When you get it working, be sure to post a link to the binaries on
> comp.os.vms.
> Alternatively, I'll upload them to my VMS stuff page.
>
> Good job!
>
> Regards, Mark
Thanks VAXman, that took care of it - darn it, I was very close ;-).
The binaries, should anyone desire, can be pulled from:
http://wopr.adelphos.org/~jpf/src/
(you're also welcome to login and try em out -- telnet to the above
host... login info displayed in the banner)
Thanks again for the help!
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:39:02 GMT
From: John Santos <john@egh.com>
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <GdkBk.431$Jw.113@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <1a59b7ac-0abb-41fe-bd84-d8570a4caf0a@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com> writes:
>
>>{...snip...}
>>There is a MACRO32 porting guide in the documentation set on the
>>OpenVMS www site at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5601/5601PRO.HTML
>
>
> The only problem was the stupid .WORD 0 declaring the procedure entry
> point. I hated to see this in VAX code too!
>
> Bob, please, please, please fix your newsreader settings. The enitre
> portion of the original posting which you quoted was q-p'ed the news-
> reader you used to post your reply.
>
>
I read this and my first thought was "What the heck is a .word 0 doing
in the middle of code? Doesn't it HALT on the VAX when it gets there?"
Then I realized it was a CALL entry mask, telling it to save nothing.
IIRC, .MASK and .ENTRY have existed from day 1 (at least in field test
months before the release of VAX/VMS V1.0) and would have solved this.
You wouldn't have got the "Data in a code .PSECT" error, and if the code
had used .MASK, the compiler *might* have done the right thing by
assuming a .ENTRY because of the .MASK and compiled okay with just
an informational, though putting in the .ENTRY is (or better, a
.CALL_ENTRY with an appropriate set of hints to the compiler) the
correct fix, as VAXman says. BTW, .CALL_ENTRY is backwards-
compatible with the VAX MACRO-32 Assembler, at least from V6.0 on.
and .ENTRY all the way back to the dawn of time.
Where did the horrendous programming style of using .WORD instead of
.ENTRY come from? (I just checked and discovered it was the VAX
Architecture book. Both the 1979-1980 edition and the 1981 edition
use it in their programming examples, the version in the 1981 edition
being horribly mangled by spurious line wraps.) I'm sure the V1.0
Macro and Procedure Calling Standards Manuals did it right, though,
because I would have found it totally intolerable to have to construct
register masks in binary :-)
--
John Santos
Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
781-861-0670 ext 539
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:57:36 -0500
From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <slrngdckmg.55o.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>
In article <e4d505ab-5331-4a11-9ef9-fef5a0a2a2dc@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
jferraro wrote:
[...]
>The binaries, should anyone desire, can be pulled from:
>
> http://wopr.adelphos.org/~jpf/src/
>
>(you're also welcome to login and try em out -- telnet to the above
>host... login info displayed in the banner)
>
>Thanks again for the help!
>
>Joe
Thanks for the new resource; however, when I log in and attempt to run Moria, I
always get a message:
GAMES
1. The Dungeons of Moria v4.8 - (1985)
2. The Dungeons of Moria v5 / U. Buffalo - (1989)
x. eXit
Choice: 2
*** ERROR : Terminal not supported ***
See TERMDEF.PAS for definning new terminals.
*** Terminals supported:
VT52 Set Terminal/VT52
VT100 Set Terminal/VT100
VT200 Set Terminal/VT200
VT300 Set Terminal/VT300
Teleray 10 Set Terminal/FT1
ADM-3A Set Terminal/FT2
ADDS100 Set Terminal/FT3
IBM3101 Set Terminal/FT4
This happens even if I set my terminal type to VT100 before I TELNET into your
machine. There seems to be no way to reset the terminal type in your menu
system; can you provide a way to do so?
Otherwise, a nice, fast machine (rx2600?).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <cb1e1110-85f7-4984-aca0-a281036539b2@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
>
> Choice: 2
> *** ERROR : Terminal not supported ***
> See TERMDEF.PAS for definning new terminals.
> *** Terminals supported:
> =A0 =A0 VT52 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Set Terminal/VT52
> =A0 =A0 VT100 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/VT100
> =A0 =A0 VT200 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/VT200
> =A0 =A0 VT300 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/VT300
> =A0 =A0 Teleray 10 =A0 Set Terminal/FT1
> =A0 =A0 ADM-3A =A0 =A0 =A0 Set Terminal/FT2
> =A0 =A0 ADDS100 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/FT3
> =A0 =A0 IBM3101 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/FT4
>
> This happens even if I set my terminal type to VT100 before I TELNET into=
your
> machine. =A0There seems to be no way to reset the terminal type in your m=
enu
> system; can you provide a way to do so?
>
> Otherwise, a nice, fast machine (rx2600?).
It's actually a zx6, though I haven't seen many differences between it
at the rx26s (MP, dual P/S, etc..)
With regards to term... I've not seen the issue elsewhere... I'll have
a look at the menu...
GEIN $ set term/vt100
GEIN $ telnet wopr.adelphos.org
Trying... Connected to WOPR.ADELPHOS.ORG
<.snip>
GAMES
1. The Dungeons of Moria v4.8 - (1985)
2. The Dungeons of Moria v5 / U. Buffalo - (1989)
x. eXit
Choice: 2
*************************
** Moria UB 5.00 **
*************************
COPYRIGHT (c) Robert Alan Koeneke
Programers : Robert Alan Koeneke / University of Oklahoma
Jimmey Wayne Todd / University of Oklahoma
Modified by: Bill Palter / State University of New York
Nick B Triantos / State University of New York
Dungeon Master: This file may contain updates and news
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: urbancamo <mark@wickensonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <79cf8e54-90cb-43c7-b3a5-d70ce3e61cdd@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
If you are using linux, set TERM=vt220 before issuing the telnet
command.
------------------------------
Date: 22 Sep 2008 12:46:38 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <ITGEllDTvlM8@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <fd005e43-ddae-4eb4-bd4a-ace3e13dfef6@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com> writes:
> Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole'
> games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying
> to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble
> with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found,
> isn't helping me out :-/....
Judging by the listing you showed, this code was never ported from
VAX to Alpha. The guide to porting Macro-32 from VAX to Alpha
should give all the steps that will make this code compatable
with the Macr-32 compilers and both Alpha and I64. And the VAX
Macro assembler has been updated to be pretty happy with the new
code, too.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:02:17 -0500
From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro
Message-ID: <slrngdgcg8.t2.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>
In article <79cf8e54-90cb-43c7-b3a5-d70ce3e61cdd@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
urbancamo wrote:
>If you are using linux, set TERM=vt220 before issuing the telnet
>command.
Thanks, this worked; I tried using vt100 and vt300 from my VMS system, but
those terminal sessions didn't work. A VT200 terminal session from VMS worked
fine. Picky, picky!
Now off to hame some fun...
------------------------------
Date: 22 Sep 2008 13:03:04 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: NEWS was: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jpjc7F46uphU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <op.uhvvnlfxhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>,
"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> writes:
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:29:27 -0700, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> I've been trying to post this for 4 days but recently discovered that
>> Google Groups will not allow me to post text containing the word
>> comprised of the phonem "fun" + "da" + "ment" + "al" so I've replaced
>> that word with the mnemonic FDM
>
> Use News.Individual.NET costs ¤10 per year and use Opera as your
> newsreader.
I'll second the first part of this. I have been using them since the
days when they were free and just a part of U Berlin. When they went
commercial it was well worth the price to stay with them.
As for the second part, I use Knews on a Unix box. Knews may be
available for other OSes but I have never looked. But as a newsreader
it is pretty good.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christopher Lusardi <clusardi2k@aol.com>
Subject: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Message-ID: <0e289782-c774-4ae1-a1de-1a5384dfbd52@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
"backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen.
How can I redirect it to a specific file instead.
Thank you,
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com>
Subject: Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Message-ID: <89ebb244-d467-47f6-bd72-05ca7043accd@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 22, 3:30 pm, Christopher Lusardi <clusard...@aol.com> wrote:
> "backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen.
> How can I redirect it to a specific file instead.
>
> Thank you,
> Chris
Chris,
First, there should be a HELP command listing the paramters for that
version of BACKUP. Type HELP BACKUP and it should display the list of
command qualifiers.
That said, the command to write the listing file to X.LIS would
generally be: BACKUP/LIST=X.LIS savesetname/SAVE_SET
- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Message-ID: <450eb78b-0db2-47c1-bdfc-9c410c30d7dc@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 22, 4:30=A0pm, Christopher Lusardi <clusard...@aol.com> wrote:
> "backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen.
> How can I redirect it to a specific file instead.
>
> Thank you,
> Chris
If
$ backup/list=3Dfilename.lis file.bck/saveset
doesn't work, then try
$ define/u sys$output filename.lis
$ backup/lis file.bck/saveset
Ken
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:30:31 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file
Message-ID: <mv6dnSCq05e7t0XVnZ2dnUVZ_o7inZ2d@comcast.com>
Christopher Lusardi wrote:
> "backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen.
> How can I redirect it to a specific file instead.
>
> Thank you,
> Chris
I think you would find a study of the manuals most helpful.
HELP is likewise there to help you. Try:
$ HELP BACKUP /LIST
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:33:38 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available
Message-ID: <00A7FC95.82FBBD31@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <f7CdnQ910KqR1EzVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <e002e$48d13241$4c0aaa0d$13938@teksavvy.com>,
>> "John Smith" <John.Smith@NotTheOneAtHP.com> writes:
>>> Who is the radar manufacturer you can see on the north side of I-95 as you
>>> drive by? I can't recall whether it is Raytheon or GE -- it's been a while
>>> since I passed through the area. Long history of EW stuff in that area -
>>> especially when Griffiss AFB @ Rome, NY was the EW headquarters.
>>
>> Ummm..... I-95 doesn't go anywhere near Rome, NY. That's I-81.
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
>
>Perhaps he is talking about the "ship in the cornfield" just off I-295
>in New Jersey. There is a structure that looks more or less like the
>top of a ship with antennas all over it. Once upon a time I knew who
>ran it but my memory grows DIMM. Perhaps it will come back to me.
Isn't that Martin Marrietta?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:21:34 -0400
From: "John Smith" <John.Smith@NotTheOneAtHP.com>
Subject: Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available
Message-ID: <64e69$48d52311$4c0aaa0d$31373@TEKSAVVY.COM>
My bad --- should be I-90 as it passes through Syracuse, NY, near the
intersection of the Electronics Parkway exit
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.109364,-76.187868&spn=0.007707,0.019312&t=h&z=16
"Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
news:6jcsukF2nr7oU1@mid.individual.net...
> In article <e002e$48d13241$4c0aaa0d$13938@teksavvy.com>,
> "John Smith" <John.Smith@NotTheOneAtHP.com> writes:
>>
>> Who is the radar manufacturer you can see on the north side of I-95 as
>> you
>> drive by? I can't recall whether it is Raytheon or GE -- it's been a
>> while
>> since I passed through the area. Long history of EW stuff in that area -
>> especially when Griffiss AFB @ Rome, NY was the EW headquarters.
>
> Ummm..... I-95 doesn't go anywhere near Rome, NY. That's I-81.
>
> bill
>
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "vmsmangler@earthlink.net" <vmsmangler@earthlink.net>
Subject: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken
Message-ID: <f85903b5-f4e5-4395-83c7-10236c56df00@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
Last Sunday evening I ordered the OpenVMS Alpha media from the
Hobbyist website. It said my order was received and would arrive in
several days. Nothing has happened since then. No transaction on my
credit card has been posted. I emailed the website but have had
no response.
Anybody else having problems with the hobbyist site?
Bill (aka VMS Mangler)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: H Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de>
Subject: Re: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken
Message-ID: <44052a7c-0fbe-4e08-bb4e-aad987539c2b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On 21 sep, 19:10, "vmsmang...@earthlink.net"
<vmsmang...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Last Sunday evening I ordered the OpenVMS Alpha media from the
> Hobbyist website. It said my order was received and would arrive in
> several days. Nothing has happened since then. No transaction on my
> credit card has been posted. I emailed the website but have had
> no response.
>
> Anybody else having problems with the hobbyist site?
>
> Bill (aka VMS Mangler)
It took about two weeks for the CD to end up on my doormat. Then again
I'm in the Netherlands.
Dunno where you are but be patient....
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:31:01 +0200
From: Joseph Huber <joseph.huber@NOSPAM.web.de>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gat040$1enh$1@gwdu112.gwdg.de>
JF Mezei wrote:
> Question about accelerators:
>
> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>
> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>
> Or are they able to put particles into collision-free paths around the
> loop so that they can each travel/accelerate for long periods, circling
> the loops many times and only once they've gotten to the right speed, do
> they press some button that changes the course ever so slightly so that
> particles in opposite directions will the collide just under all the
> monitoring equipment ?
It is the latter:
The two beams in LHC travel in their own vacuum tube each (inside the
magnets).
Injection and accellaration takes some time until stable beams are
stored. Only then collisions start: at the interaction points inside the
detectors the two tubes cross and a few protons collide (this crossing
is steered by a kind of "kicker" magnets). The beams are not single
particles but bunches, so they are not destroyed immediately, but this
goes on for many hours until a new filling is needed.
--
Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:31:02 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <48d22043$0$9617$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Joseph Huber wrote:
> Also have a look into Cern's ask-the-expert pages at:
>
> http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAnExpert/en/Accelerators/Howaccel-en.html#7
But they don't answer the most important question: where do the protons
go afterwards ? Is there a tap at the end of the loop where they open it
at regular interval and fill a bit bucket with protons ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:17:08 +0200
From: Joseph Huber <joseph.huber@NOSPAM.web.de>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gat9r4$1lge$1@gwdu112.gwdg.de>
JF Mezei wrote:
> Joseph Huber wrote:
>
>> Also have a look into Cern's ask-the-expert pages at:
>>
>> http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAnExpert/en/Accelerators/Howaccel-en.html#7
>
>
> But they don't answer the most important question: where do the protons
> go afterwards ? Is there a tap at the end of the loop where they open it
> at regular interval and fill a bit bucket with protons ?
Those which collide, are no longer protons, the particles go into the
detector mass, and in fact irradiate it.
When the beam has lost too much of it's particles to produce usefull
events, or because of some technical failure (magnet/power loss or
whatever could happen), then the beam is "dumped" into a big mass of
graphite and (or?) iron.
--
Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:41:01 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <xgp$bty8kGWp@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <1b37f487-8b1b-44eb-b8c4-d6116f0ee9b9@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> All you said here was that you used the pdp a couple of years before
> the first 11/780. Then you said the cheapest DEC system, but not when.
> When you said the cheapest system it sounded to me like it could be
> any system, not just the 11/780, even if it was at the time of the
> first 11/780. DEC didn't have anything cheaper than a VAX 11/780? Even
> a non-VAX (or does the LA36 only work on a VAX)?
When I said the cheapest system, I meant the cheapest 11/780 you
could configure. And at that time all VAXen were 11/780.
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:43:34 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <itNMvSqPQnkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Question about accelerators:
>
> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>
> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
build the detectors for the results of collisions.
Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
solid hits provide results never before seen.
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 13:34:22 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <itNMvSqPQnkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Question about accelerators:
>>
>> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>
>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>
> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>
> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
> solid hits provide results never before seen.
Of what real value and at what cost?
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:49:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: IanMiller <gxys@uk2.net>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <2719b5b5-1c12-45f7-998c-3b83b42ba631@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 2:34=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <itNMvSqPQ...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wri=
tes:
>
>
>
> > In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfme=
zei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
> >> Question about accelerators:
>
> >> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>
> >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
> >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
> >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>
> > =A0 =A0For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. =
=A0Only
> > =A0 =A0at selected points to the loops cross. =A0That way they know whe=
re to
> > =A0 =A0build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>
> > =A0 =A0Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of g=
lance
> > =A0 =A0off each other creating uninteresting results. =A0But the few th=
at make
> > =A0 =A0solid hits provide results never before seen.
>
> Of what real value and at what cost?
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0
the UK spends less per year on the LHC than we do on peanuts. How much
you pay I know not.
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 13:58:29 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jf545F32a7lU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <2719b5b5-1c12-45f7-998c-3b83b42ba631@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
IanMiller <gxys@uk2.net> writes:
> On Sep 18, 2:34 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <itNMvSqPQ...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> >> Question about accelerators:
>>
>> >> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>
>> >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>> >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>> >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>>
>> > For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>> > at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>> > build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>>
>> > Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
>> > off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
>> > solid hits provide results never before seen.
>>
>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> the UK spends less per year on the LHC than we do on peanuts. How much
> you pay I know not.
OK, so now we know the UK wastes money on the LHC and peanuts. Doesn't
answer the question, does it?
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:12:54 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Question about accelerators:
So, you have one big 27km loop.
Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
Or are they able to put particles into collision-free paths around the
loop so that they can each travel/accelerate for long periods, circling
the loops many times and only once they've gotten to the right speed, do
they press some button that changes the course ever so slightly so that
particles in opposite directions will the collide just under all the
monitoring equipment ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:19:05 +0000 (UTC)
From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gato0p$gm4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>
In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <itNMvSqPQnkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>> Question about accelerators:
>>>
>>> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>>
>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>>
>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>>
>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
>> solid hits provide results never before seen.
>
>Of what real value and at what cost?
>
Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ?
Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower.
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to
choose grass for dinner again.
>bill
>
>
>--
>Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>University of Scranton |
>Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:12:15 +0200
From: Joseph Huber <joseph.huber@NOSPAM.web.de>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gat2gv$1gaq$1@gwdu112.gwdg.de>
Joseph Huber wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> Question about accelerators:
>>
>> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>
>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>>
>> Or are they able to put particles into collision-free paths around the
>> loop so that they can each travel/accelerate for long periods, circling
>> the loops many times and only once they've gotten to the right speed, do
>> they press some button that changes the course ever so slightly so that
>> particles in opposite directions will the collide just under all the
>> monitoring equipment ?
>
> It is the latter:
> The two beams in LHC travel in their own vacuum tube each (inside the
> magnets).
> Injection and accellaration takes some time until stable beams are
> stored. Only then collisions start: at the interaction points inside the
> detectors the two tubes cross and a few protons collide (this crossing
> is steered by a kind of "kicker" magnets). The beams are not single
> particles but bunches, so they are not destroyed immediately, but this
> goes on for many hours until a new filling is needed.
>
Also have a look into Cern's ask-the-expert pages at:
http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAnExpert/en/Accelerators/Howaccel-en.html#7
--
Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 16:40:51 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jfekjF32hajU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <gato0p$gm4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>In article <itNMvSqPQnkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>> Question about accelerators:
>>>>
>>>> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>>>
>>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>>>
>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>>>
>>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
>>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
>>> solid hits provide results never before seen.
>>
>>Of what real value and at what cost?
>>
> Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ?
> Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower.
The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you
pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question!
> Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to
> choose grass for dinner again.
Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or
at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He
probably wouldn't like it, but he could live.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:34:59 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gau70j$pf6$1@online.de>
In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
(Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> > Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
> > off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
> > solid hits provide results never before seen.
>
> Of what real value and at what cost?
Some stories have Disraeli, some Gladstone asking Faraday what use his
new trick was. His reply: I don't know, but in a hundred years you may
tax it. Of course, Faraday's work led directly to essentially
everything covered by "electrical engineering", certainly worth it.
Tycho Brahe---in the words of Herbert S. Zim, a somewhat disoriented
cross between W.C. Fields and Carl Sagan---was a Danish nobleman who
even in the 16th century never married his girlfriend and mother of his
children, lost part of his nose in a duel over who was the best
mathematician and had dwarves as servants serving dinner from within a
whole in the middle of a round table. He died of a burst bladder when
he decided it wouldn't be good to leave the table before his employer.
His naked-eye astronomical work led, via Kepler (who was his assistant)
to Newton's Principia.
So, yes, basic research does pay off.
I'm currently undergoing treatment for cancer. X-ray machines, PET
examinations etc all originated in basic research.
Carl Sagan said that the unmanned exploration of the planets by various
probes amounted to a penny a world per person. I think even the folks
who have to get by on a dollar per day could afford that. Compared to
other government spending, the amount paid for basic research is almost
negligible. Most of that is probably salaries (not very high, compared
to what one earns "in industry") for people working in research, and
most of those people don't stay in research but go into "industry".
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:07:46 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gau8u2$b1a$1@online.de>
In article <gau70j$pf6$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de
(Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
> So, yes, basic research does pay off.
Of course, it also has a certain more intangible value. One could ask
of what use is the music of Bach? He (and his family---he had 20
children, though most died young) was essentially supported by public
money. The world would be less well-off had someone decided "no, we
don't need that". Man does not live by bread alone.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:08:29 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <48d2a7dd$0$1563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Bob Koehler wrote:
> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets
etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that
happen to intersect at a point ?
Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside
the same vacuum tube ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:35:47 +0200
From: Joseph Huber <joseph.huber@NIRWANA.web.de>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gauaik$c9e$1@online.de>
JF Mezei schrieb:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
>
>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>
> Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets
> etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that
> happen to intersect at a point ?
>
> Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside
> the same vacuum tube ?
No, there are two vacuum tubes (or is the right word vacuum pipes ?)
inside the one magnet. The magnets are the sophisticated part keeping
the beams in the opposite directions on track.
If You read through the Cern
web pages, I remember some picture where You can see a magnet with two
vacuum pipes in the center. Since in the LHC the beams are of the same
kind of particles, this is possible.
In past years I was involved in a detector at the Hamburg HERA collider:
there protons collided with positrons (anti electrons).
Because of the different behaviour, the two beams were running each in
their own magnets (superconducting for the protons, conventional warm
for positrons/electrons),
effectively 2 accelerators in one tunnel.
--
Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:17:05 +0200
From: Joseph Huber <joseph.huber@NIRWANA.web.de>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gaud02$vne$1@online.de>
Joseph Huber schrieb:
> JF Mezei schrieb:
>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>
>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>>
>> Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets
>> etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that
>> happen to intersect at a point ?
>>
>> Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside
>> the same vacuum tube ?
>
> No, there are two vacuum tubes (or is the right word vacuum pipes ?)
> inside the one magnet. The magnets are the sophisticated part keeping
> the beams in the opposite directions on track.
I have to correct myself:
LHC has two beam-pipes, each with its own magnet coil, both are inside
one big cryostat, housing the cryogenics, and the iron yoke to
compensate the magnetic fields.
So the two beams have their own magnetic field, but one can't speak of
two independent accelerators.
--
Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 15:39:56 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <BZnhglSCiZFt@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
> Of what real value and at what cost?
Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:41:42 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <RdWdnUyJGrYCV0_VnZ2dnUVZ_tjinZ2d@comcast.com>
Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>
> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>
> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
>
Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth until
it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The little
bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times.
A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular
degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind.
Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building computers
with vacuum tubes?
Would you like to consider what your life span might have been if you
had been born a hundred and fifty years ago? No penicilin! No sulfa
drugs. No X-Ray, no MRI, no CAT Scan. Your doctor could very well have
known less about the art and science of medicine than you do.
Sometimes research just suggests a better place to look or a better
thing to look for. It's still worth doing!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:49:37 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gauidg$mem$1@online.de>
In article <BZnhglSCiZFt@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> >
> > Of what real value and at what cost?
>
> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>
> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
In a speech entitled I, Thou and the Computer (back in 1973 or something
like that), Isaac Asimov commented on an anti-science article by a
certain Mr. Laurie in the magazine NEW SCIENTIST, in which Laurie stated
"Sure, science has turned a few tricks like tinned food, but what has
science done to add to the happiness of man's three score years and
ten?" Asimov replied in a letter: man's three score years and ten.
Before science, the average lifespan was more like one score year and
ten. If you don't want it, Mr. Laurie, don't take it.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:59:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <47e154bb-b37b-43b3-813b-a0f28150f38c@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 10:34 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <itNMvSqPQ...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
>
>
> > In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfme=
zei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
> >> Question about accelerators:
>
> >> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>
> >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
> >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
> >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>
> > For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
> > at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
> > build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>
> > Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glanc=
e
> > off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that mak=
e
> > solid hits provide results never before seen.
>
> Of what real value and at what cost?
A fair question, but keep in mind that -=96 as far as I know -- little,
if any, of your money is involved. (Has the US contributed to this?
Probably some, but I doubt it=92s a lot.)
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
for an introduction. See
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-09/defense-lhc
for an article explaining why it=92s worth the cost. I offer what little
I can below.
I take a stab at the value of this below. The cost? I think it=92s
several billion dollars and give a short description of what=92s
involved before my efforts at describing the value.
The cost:
Unfortunately, research is expensive, and going to higher and higher
energies in high-energy physics (part of subatomic physics -- nuclear
physics being the other part) requires a corresponding increase in the
size and complexity of everything involved. At this level one needs
the following: huge (really huge), very complex detectors; many big,
powerful magnets with focusing capability; large buildings and the
equipment therein to deal with high-energy particles traversing a very
long path; massive computer power (for data acquisition and offline
analysis; many, many physicists (esp. grad students!); a lot of
electricity to run the magnets with, of course, a lot of equipment to
cool the magnets; doing the design and engineering (no easy feat!);
construction; and probably other things I can=92t think of offhand. As I
said above, this comes to several billion dollars ($6 billion
according to the pop-sci reference above).
But is it worth it? For many it is, even if there are no practical
benefits. But I=92m sure there will be some. But then again, is it worth
the cost?
The value:
Well, for one thing, it help keeps the unemployment rate down!
Keeps physicists off the streets.
Acquires knowledge for its own sake.
One of the basic things about people is their desire to be important.
We all strive for this in different ways. Some try to be important by
acquiring wealth. Others try by winning in sports. Still others go for
power, etc. Scientists play this game too. And there are the Nobel
prizes and such. And there's posting cov! There's also acting to
become a movie star. Etc. You can add quite a lot to this list.
Bragging rights for Europe. (See importance paragraph above. Countries
also play the I- want-to-be-important game.)
Prestige. (see above)
Creates a force on companies to come up with better and better
equipment, including electronics and computers. Experimental physics
pushes technology to the limits, and that is no understatement.
Testing the Standard Model.
Might find the Higgs particle.
Might find something else!
May produce some fascinating unknown phenomena to confound theoretical
physicists.
Might bring the end of the world (well, not really), but if so, it
would end the financial crisis for *far* less than the Fed is putting
up at taxpayers expense! Talk about a bargain.
Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and
general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that=92s the only
commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and
cosmologists and the like.
The idea that one can build a laser was first brought to light by
Einstein doing basic research.
Basic research is important because you never know where the next
great breakthrough (practical or otherwise) will come from.
Penicillin, e.g. Ok, this is a lot more expensive, but see above.
Thermodynamics grew from practical considerations into full-blown
basic research, giving back much practical knowledge.
Quantum mechanics started as pure basic research, but our modern world
would be impossible without it. For one thing, computers would still
be using radio tubes and there probably would be no Unix and no VMS.
(Well, not having Microsoft would be an advantage! You have to take
the bad with the good.) There=92d be no lasers and no transistors.
Now, if the question you=92re asking is: Is it worth the cost? Well, the
people of Europe seem to think so.
Better yet, check out the links above.
AEF
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolve=
s
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:03:23 -0600
From: Jeff Campbell <n8wxs@arrl.net>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <1221782202_2361@isp.n>
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <gato0p$gm4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> In article <itNMvSqPQnkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>>> Question about accelerators:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>>>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>>>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
>>>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
>>>> solid hits provide results never before seen.
>>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>>
>> Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ?
>> Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower.
>
> The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you
> pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question!
>
>> Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to
>> choose grass for dinner again.
>
> Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or
> at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He
> probably wouldn't like it, but he could live.
>
> bill
>
Wolf - "Grass is what food eats!"
----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:13:10 -0600
From: Jeff Campbell <n8wxs@arrl.net>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <1221782790_2365@isp.n>
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>
>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>>
>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
>>
>
> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth until
> it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The little
> bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times.
>
> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular
> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind.
>
> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building computers
> with vacuum tubes?
Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD?
Extra credit: how much filament power is required?
8-)
8-)
>
> Would you like to consider what your life span might have been if you
> had been born a hundred and fifty years ago? No penicilin! No sulfa
> drugs. No X-Ray, no MRI, no CAT Scan. Your doctor could very well have
> known less about the art and science of medicine than you do.
>
> Sometimes research just suggests a better place to look or a better
> thing to look for. It's still worth doing!
>
----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 15:42:49 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gIgflPKglTam@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <48d2a7dd$0$1563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
> Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets
> etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that
> happen to intersect at a point ?
>
> Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside
> the same vacuum tube ?
In most, and I think the LHC is included, there are two tubes. But
you need the sophisticated magnets anyhow because the tubes tend to
both be at the core of the magnets.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:27:34 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <dYadnVWvks7ibE_VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@comcast.com>
Jeff Campbell wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>>
>>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
>>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>>>
>>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
>>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
>>>
>>
>> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth
>> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The
>> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times.
>>
>> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular
>> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind.
>>
>> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building
>> computers with vacuum tubes?
>
> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD?
>
The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors.
> Extra credit: how much filament power is required?
Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now! I no
longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the
power requirements.
>
<snip>
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 00:37:22 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jgai2F36jsuU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <dYadnVWvks7ibE_VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> Jeff Campbell wrote:
>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>>>
>>>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
>>>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>>>>
>>>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
>>>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth
>>> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The
>>> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times.
>>>
>>> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular
>>> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind.
>>>
>>> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building
>>> computers with vacuum tubes?
>>
>> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD?
>>
> The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors.
>> Extra credit: how much filament power is required?
> Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now!
Stop by my house for a beer sometime. I'll show some to you. :-)
> I no
> longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the
> power requirements.
Yeah, still got them, too.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 00:40:09 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jgan9F36jsuU2@mid.individual.net>
In article <1221782202_2361@isp.n>,
Jeff Campbell <n8wxs@arrl.net> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <gato0p$gm4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>> In article <itNMvSqPQnkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>>>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>>>> Question about accelerators:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>>>>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>>>>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>>>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>>>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>>>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
>>>>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
>>>>> solid hits provide results never before seen.
>>>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>>>
>>> Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ?
>>> Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower.
>>
>> The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you
>> pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question!
>>
>>> Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to
>>> choose grass for dinner again.
>>
>> Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or
>> at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He
>> probably wouldn't like it, but he could live.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> Wolf - "Grass is what food eats!"
That's what I keep telling the local vegaterians when thye say I
should be eating salads. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:46:46 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <b9udndsFVNJiaE_VnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@comcast.com>
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <dYadnVWvks7ibE_VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> Jeff Campbell wrote:
>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
>>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>>>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
>>>>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>>>>>
>>>>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
>>>>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
>>>>>
>>>> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth
>>>> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The
>>>> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times.
>>>>
>>>> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular
>>>> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind.
>>>>
>>>> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building
>>>> computers with vacuum tubes?
>>> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD?
>>>
>> The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors.
>>> Extra credit: how much filament power is required?
>> Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now!
>
> Stop by my house for a beer sometime. I'll show some to you. :-)
>
>> I no
>> longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the
>> power requirements.
>
> Yeah, still got them, too.
>
> bill
>
What are you doing with them? Just collecting antiques? The last time
I saw a vacuum tube was several years ago when my wife trash picked a
"Cathedral Radio". She sold it for big bucks to a collector.
Actually, if you count a CRT as a vacuum tube I'm looking at one now.
If it dies before I do, it will be replaced with a flat panel monitor.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:05:41 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gavmgl$9fa$1@online.de>
In article
<47e154bb-b37b-43b3-813b-a0f28150f38c@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, AEF
<spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
> Bragging rights for Europe. (See importance paragraph above. Countries
> also play the I- want-to-be-important game.)
Of course, CERN itself has been around for 50 years or so. Some media
reports give the impression that CERN itself was founded only recently
in order to build the LHC. Although personally I think the effect is
exaggerated, one of the motivations---just shortly after WWII---was to
have an international institute (in a neutral country) to promote
international understanding. Also keep in mind that many countries in
Europe are quite small. These small countries couldn't participate in
such experiments at all unless they spent a really high percentage of
their money (compared to their contribution to CERN) to build a national
institute. (I think Germany is the only European country with its own
large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).)
> Creates a force on companies to come up with better and better
> equipment, including electronics and computers. Experimental physics
> pushes technology to the limits, and that is no understatement.
This is true to a quite large degree. One could ask: Why doesn't
industry itself, consumer demand etc push the envelope? Probably
because it is not clear beforehand what will "pay off", whereas research
is more desperate. Today, CCDs are ubiquitous (practically all digital
cameras, camcorders etc have them). A huge part of the development was
done by astronomers. (Interestingly, Tony Tyson, now at UCD, was
employed for decades by Lucent, essentially as a full-time astronomer.)
> Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and
> general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that's the only
> commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and
> cosmologists and the like.
For GR, yes. For SR, anytime relativistic velocities are involved, you
need it. I think there are commercial or at least medical instruments
which involve particles moving at relativistic velocities.
> Thermodynamics grew from practical considerations into full-blown
> basic research, giving back much practical knowledge.
Someone once said that science owes more to the steam engine than the
steam engine owes to science!
We tend to think of pure research first, applications second, but
thermodynamics is a counter-example; much of the research was motivated
by the desire to improve steam engines, and only later became important
in experimental physics. The same is true of astronomy, which was
hugely important for navigation at one time.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:21 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gavmv1$9fa$2@online.de>
In article <b9udndsFVNJiaE_VnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B.
Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> What are you doing with them? Just collecting antiques? The last time
> I saw a vacuum tube was several years ago when my wife trash picked a
> "Cathedral Radio". She sold it for big bucks to a collector.
Of course, they are still used in guitar amplifiers. The reason is that
guitarist often like a distorted sound, and the overtones produced by a
vacuum tube in its nonlinear regime are better than those of a
transistor.
One can also buy tube-based hifi amplifiers, but I think most of that is
voodoo. They are probably quite good, because the OTHER components are
quite good, since the tube fanatics are willing to pay good money, so
the proper comparison would be a high-end transistor amplifier.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:53:47 +0200
From: Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gb00ak$7lq$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply schrieb:
> (I think Germany is the only European country with its own
> large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).)
This is not quite true (anymore).
The high energy physics at DESY has been shutdown.
There are, however, other large accelerators,
e.g. at GSI, or in France at Ganil.
Although not quite the size of LHC, their research is much more
diversified, and sometimes even includes practical aspects such as
innovative radiotherapy.
>
> For GR, yes. For SR, anytime relativistic velocities are involved, you
> need it. I think there are commercial or at least medical instruments
> which involve particles moving at relativistic velocities.
Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example.
20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create
the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:56:57 +0200
From: Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gb00gi$e90$00$1@news.t-online.com>
AEF schrieb:
>
> Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and
> general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that’s the only
> commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and
> cosmologists and the like.
>
> The idea that one can build a laser was first brought to light by
> Einstein doing basic research.
What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ?
It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and
(probably numerous) sheets of paper.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:39:09 +0000 (UTC)
From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gb06hd$8bc$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>
In article <6jfekjF32hajU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <gato0p$gm4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>In article <itNMvSqPQnkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>>> Question about accelerators:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you have one big 27km loop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise,
>>>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to
>>>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ?
>>>>
>>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only
>>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to
>>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance
>>>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make
>>>> solid hits provide results never before seen.
>>>
>>>Of what real value and at what cost?
>>>
>> Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ?
>> Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower.
>
>The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you
>pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question!
>
But the value wasn't particularly apparent at the time. Though a bit tongue in
cheek Thompson's Colleagues at the Cavendish Lab used to offer the toast
"The electron: may it never be of use to anybody."
See for instance
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B05E2D61531F93AA15757C0A961958260
The electron though was definitely the low hanging fruit since it was so
loosely bound in atoms. Knowledge of the construction of the atomic nucleus
(protons and neutrons) has also proved valuable (as also knowledge about
anti-matter eg positrons).
Whether the results from the LHC will contribute to similar future technologies
only time will tell. Though I'd suggest that knowing where MASS comes from and
whether other dimensions exist to mention two possible results might prove
valuable.
>> Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to
>> choose grass for dinner again.
>
>Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or
>at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He
>probably wouldn't like it, but he could live.
>
On the contrary I would think it highly unlikely that the wolf would survive on
a diet consisting largely of cellulose which not being a ruminant it would not
be able to digest. Note. Human vegetarians eat fruit, grass seeds and leaves
but don't subsist on a diet of grass. Cellulose passes through the human
digestive system intact.
see
http://science.jrank.org/pages/1335/Cellulose-Cellulose-digestion.html
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
>bill
>
>--
>Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>University of Scranton |
>Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 05:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <90deeade-e778-40dd-9b93-ff2094ddb5b7@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 4:05=A0am, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---
remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote:
> In article
> <47e154bb-b37b-43b3-813b-a0f28150f...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, AEF
>
> <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > Bragging rights for Europe. (See importance paragraph above. Countries
> > also play the I- want-to-be-important game.)
>
> Of course, CERN itself has been around for 50 years or so. =A0Some media
> reports give the impression that CERN itself was founded only recently
> in order to build the LHC. =A0Although personally I think the effect is
> exaggerated, one of the motivations---just shortly after WWII---was to
> have an international institute (in a neutral country) to promote
> international understanding. =A0Also keep in mind that many countries in
> Europe are quite small. =A0These small countries couldn't participate in
> such experiments at all unless they spent a really high percentage of
> their money (compared to their contribution to CERN) to build a national
> institute. =A0(I think Germany is the only European country with its own
> large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).)
Yes, CERN has been around for quite a while. This project is more or
less an upgrade. There's at least one other situation like this I can
think of, but I won't mention it here for fear of starting yet another
endless discussion of it! :-)
> > Creates a force on companies to come up with better and better
> > equipment, including electronics and computers. Experimental physics
> > pushes technology to the limits, and that is no understatement.
>
> This is true to a quite large degree. =A0One could ask: Why doesn't
> industry itself, consumer demand etc push the envelope? =A0Probably
> because it is not clear beforehand what will "pay off", whereas research
> is more desperate. =A0Today, CCDs are ubiquitous (practically all digital
> cameras, camcorders etc have them). =A0A huge part of the development was
> done by astronomers. =A0(Interestingly, Tony Tyson, now at UCD, was
> employed for decades by Lucent, essentially as a full-time astronomer.)
I would venture to guess that industry on its own would mainly try to
improve what technology already exists and also invent new uses
thereof. Physicists need to come up with new things to progress or, as
in the case of the laser, are realized as consequences of new theories
-- again basic research. For example, would anyone ever have come up
with MRI (formerly known as NMR: nuclear magnetic resonance) if
nuclear physicists hadn't done it first? And I wouldn't be surprised
if NaI crystals (needed to measure the energies gamma rays) would be
around today without physicists needing it first. Well, I'm not sure
of their history, but they are needed in thallium stress tests and
others. Also, radioactive isotope tracers are often (if not always)
made with leftover accelerators and reactors. The mass spectrometer
also comes to mind. Radiation therapy also comes to mind.
> > Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and
> > general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that's the only
> > commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and
> > cosmologists and the like.
>
> For GR, yes. =A0For SR, anytime relativistic velocities are involved, you
> need it. =A0I think there are commercial or at least medical instruments
> which involve particles moving at relativistic velocities.
I read somewhere that both are involved. Both effects are normally
extremely small, but in this case are needed to get the timing right.
> > Thermodynamics grew from practical considerations into full-blown
> > basic research, giving back much practical knowledge.
>
> Someone once said that science owes more to the steam engine than the
> steam engine owes to science!
Actually, I think things went both ways in this case. Maybe not in
equal amounts, though. The steam engine *was* very important for this.
> We tend to think of pure research first, applications second, but
> thermodynamics is a counter-example; much of the research was motivated
> by the desire to improve steam engines, and only later became important
> in experimental physics. =A0The same is true of astronomy, which was
> hugely important for navigation at one time.
Astronomy predates navigation.
AEF
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 12:46:10 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jhl8iF38mskU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <b9udndsFVNJiaE_VnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <dYadnVWvks7ibE_VnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>> Jeff Campbell wrote:
>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>>>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
>>>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>>>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>>>>>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict
>>>>>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything
>>>>>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth
>>>>> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The
>>>>> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times.
>>>>>
>>>>> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular
>>>>> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building
>>>>> computers with vacuum tubes?
>>>> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD?
>>>>
>>> The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors.
>>>> Extra credit: how much filament power is required?
>>> Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now!
>>
>> Stop by my house for a beer sometime. I'll show some to you. :-)
>>
>>> I no
>>> longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the
>>> power requirements.
>>
>> Yeah, still got them, too.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> What are you doing with them? Just collecting antiques?
I have a number of antique radios i still enjoy. I have quite a bit of
tube amateur radio equipment including my first HF rig, an HW-101. It
is really quite funny. Most of my tube radios still work. When I decided
to get back into ham radio I dug out a lot of equipment I hadn't used in
over a decade. Most of the solid-state stuff just flat out didn't work.
Those pieces that did seemed to work for only a short time before failing.
My Drake Twins are working just fine, except for 160M where I think the
crystal has gone bad. None of my HT's work. Only one of my solid-state
HF rigs works and it seems to pick up more interfernece than signals.
And I suspect most of this interference is internal. I can understand
now why true audiophiles still prefer vacuum tubes.
> The last time
> I saw a vacuum tube was several years ago when my wife trash picked a
> "Cathedral Radio". She sold it for big bucks to a collector.
I have watched the prices for antique radios rise a lot over time, I
used to get mine at the Salvation Army Store for $10-$15. Now they go
for hundreds in high class antique shoppes.
>
> Actually, if you count a CRT as a vacuum tube I'm looking at one now.
> If it dies before I do, it will be replaced with a flat panel monitor.
That is the one place I do not have vacuum tubes. All of my computers
have flat panel screens. The only CRT's I still have are in our TV
sets, which with the change to DTV are not long for this world, and
my various osciloscopes. Oh wait, all those VT-220's have CRT's!! Hey,
are we back opn topic now? :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 12:51:55 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net>
In article <gb00ak$7lq$03$1@news.t-online.com>,
Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>
> Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example.
> 20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create
> the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours.
"Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one?
Kind of like automotive power measured in BPS. (Do they still do
it that way? I haven't read a good german car rag in decades!)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:11:49 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gb08el$v00$1@online.de>
In article <gb00ak$7lq$03$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer
<M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> > (I think Germany is the only European country with its own
> > large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).)
>
> This is not quite true (anymore).
> The high energy physics at DESY has been shutdown.
Really? Why? Whatever for? When? Whose decision?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:15:06 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gb08kq$v00$2@online.de>
In article
<90deeade-e778-40dd-9b93-ff2094ddb5b7@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF
<spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
> Astronomy predates navigation.
Yes, of course, but the huge investment in observatories starting around
the 17th century was a direct result of its use in navigation.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:16:16 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gb08mv$v00$3@online.de>
In article <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
(Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> In article <gb00ak$7lq$03$1@news.t-online.com>,
> Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> >
> > Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example.
> > 20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create
> > the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours.
>
> "Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one?
Isn't Bremsstrahlung (or bremsstrahlung) the normal English word?
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 13:24:34 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jhngiF3cg6qU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <gb08mv$v00$3@online.de>,
helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
> In article <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>
>> In article <gb00ak$7lq$03$1@news.t-online.com>,
>> Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>> >
>> > Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example.
>> > 20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create
>> > the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours.
>>
>> "Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one?
>
> Isn't Bremsstrahlung (or bremsstrahlung) the normal English word?
Wow, you're right. Apparently it has been subsumed into english. It
is even an acceptable word for Scrabble!! :-) Probably necessary as
I doubt any reasonable translation would have been able to carry the
necessary meaning. I guess the only real problem with speaking more
than one language is that when one runs into what appears to be a
mixture one just understands and continues without trying to figure
out what the translation would have been. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:30:17 +0000 (UTC)
From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <gb09h9$7um$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <gb08el$v00$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip
Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
>
> Really? Why? Whatever for? When? Whose decision?
Happened already a couple of years ago.
But it affects only "useless" high energy physics of CERN type,
not DESY altogether. I think they (will) have a new electron
accelerator for X-ray laser studies, structural research and such.
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 14:00:27 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6jhpjrF3b1deU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <gb09aq$7ue$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
> In article <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill
> Gunshannon) writes:
>>
>> "Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one?
>
> Readers of textbooks on nuclear/atomic physics for example.
> It's a traditional term, meaning "deceleration radiation".
> It probably survived the 1920s/1930s when German was the
> "lingua franca" of quantum physics.
>
>> Kind of like automotive power measured in BPS. (Do they still do
>> it that way? I haven't read a good german car rag in decades!)
>
> Do you mean "PS" ? It's still used here and there, but officially
> it is kW (kiloWatt). Unfortunately a car performing at 100 PS has
> only 75kW (or sth like that),
> and this seems to be a problem for the low self-esteem of car-lovers.
Is PS the same as BPS?
PS == Pferdestärke == horsepower
BPS == Bremse Pferdestärke == brake horsepower
At least that's what the rags used for a rating in the early 70's when
I was ripping around The Saarland in my Fiat 850. :-)
I always got a kick out of American car rags using both Horsepower and
Torque. But their peaks never coincide on the RPM curve.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:07:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: DaveG <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <fdbc3a35-c467-4604-a709-d25a1a420b24@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 7:13=A0pm, Jeff Campbell <n8...@arrl.net> wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > Bob Koehler wrote:
> >> In article <6jf3muF31qi...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
> >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> >>> Of what real value and at what cost?
>
> >> =A0 =A0Of the same real value of all basic research: =A0you can't pred=
ict
> >> =A0 =A0ahead of time which will result in practicle results when.
>
> >> =A0 =A0You could have asked the same of any research that led to anyth=
ing
> >> =A0 =A0we have now. =A0Or you could go back to 50% child mortality.
>
> > Face it. =A0You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth unt=
il
> > it has been completed. =A0A lot of it has no practical use. =A0The litt=
le
> > bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times.
>
> > A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular
> > degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind.
>
> > Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? =A0Building comput=
ers
> > with vacuum tubes?
>
> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD?
>
> Extra credit: how much filament power is required?
>
> 8-)
>
> 8-)
>
>
>
> > Would you like to consider what your life span might have been if you
> > had been born a hundred and fifty years ago? =A0No penicilin! No sulfa
> > drugs. No X-Ray, no MRI, no CAT Scan. =A0Your doctor could very well ha=
ve
> > known less about the art and science of medicine than you do.
>
> > Sometimes research just suggests a better place to look or a better
> > thing to look for. =A0It's still worth doing!
>
> ----=3D=3D Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet =
News=3D=3D----http://www.pronews.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! =
>100,000 Newsgroups
> ---=3D - Total Privacy via Encryption =3D---
And I shutter to think how many 12AX7s it might take. And don't get
me started on 5U4s.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:25:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Phillips <dphill46@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <94e90d0a-3ac3-4ffe-a5c1-d619097201d1@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 8:34=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>
> Of what real value and at what cost?
>
Although the question of "value" has been answered to death, the
question of "cost" hasn't so let's look at what "cost" really means.
Cost is an exchange of capital. One person's debit is another person's
credit. Billions of (units) of capital exchanged hands as a result of
the LHC. Jobs and income were provided to people in all walks of life;
not just physicists. The question of whether or not the money could
have been put to better use or not is moot: it's a done deal. If
enough people hadn't thought the project was worthy, it wouldn't have
been done.
We could ask whether any expenditure that doesn't address an immediate
need -- e.g., world hunger, the environment, world peace -- is wise,
but mankind has always faced that question and gone on to climb
mountains and walk on the moon. That's the nature of man.
The need to further our understanding of the universe in which we live
is ingrained within us. Anyone who has read Douglas Adams' HGTTG
should know we were created to find the great question for "42."
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 12:06:34 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <mgGbL$CkTKZb@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <gb00gi$e90$00$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>
> What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ?
> It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and
> (probably numerous) sheets of paper.
There was cost in performing the experiments that led to knowing
we needed Einstein's theory. Not to mention him knowing what his
theory had to explain.
There was cost in performing Columbus' experiement, too. Failed
in his goal to reach the far east by sailing west. Failed
experiments can be vitally important.
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 17:16:29 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <6ji53dF3ff14U1@mid.individual.net>
In article <mgGbL$CkTKZb@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <gb00gi$e90$00$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>>
>> What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ?
>> It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and
>> (probably numerous) sheets of paper.
>
> There was cost in performing the experiments that led to knowing
> we needed Einstein's theory. Not to mention him knowing what his
> theory had to explain.
>
> There was cost in performing Columbus' experiement, too. Failed
> in his goal to reach the far east by sailing west. Failed
> experiments can be vitally important.
Now there's a very good comparison. Columbus was a fraud or an idiot
who successfully sold snake oil to the king and queen of Spain. And
that is exactly how I see a lot of what passes for science today except
I have eliminated the possibility that the perps are idiots. (And,
in case your curious, I hold that Columbus was also no idiot. He was
however an exceptional fraud who suckered Spain into financing a
boondogle he knew could not deliver what he promised!!)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <c5509f50-8507-46fc-8a85-44669531f7ee@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 10:23=A0am, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---
remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote:
> In article <6jhpjrF3b1d...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
>
> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> > > Readers of textbooks on nuclear/atomic physics for example.
> > > It's a traditional term, meaning "deceleration radiation".
> > > It probably survived the 1920s/1930s when German was the
> > > "lingua franca" of quantum physics.
>
> Indeed. =A0Oppenheimer (despite his German name) studied in Germany. =A0J=
ohn
> Wheeler (who died recently) was fluent in German.
>
> > >> Kind of like automotive power measured in BPS. =A0(Do they still do
> > >> it that way? =A0I haven't read a good german car rag in decades!)
>
> > > Do you mean "PS" ? It's still used here and there, but officially
> > > it is kW (kiloWatt). Unfortunately a car performing at 100 PS has
> > > only 75kW (or sth like that),
> > > and this seems to be a problem for the low self-esteem of car-lovers.
>
> If the HP number were lower than the kW number, HP would be gone. =A0Note
> that there are different horsepowers around. =A0In Europe, it is 0.75 kW
> or 750W. =A0I think the British horse power is different.
>
> > Is PS the same as BPS?
> > PS =3D=3D Pferdest=E4rke =3D=3D horsepower
> > BPS =3D=3D Bremse Pferdest=E4rke =3D=3D brake horsepower
>
> Never heard of that!
>
> > I always got a kick out of American car rags using both Horsepower and
> > Torque. =A0But their peaks never coincide on the RPM curve. =A0
>
> They are two different things. =A0Normally, the torque peaks at a lower
> RPM than the (horse)power. =A0In German, Drehmoment and Leistung.
Power =3D torque X angular velocity
Imagine applying a torque to something that doesn't turn. That's non-
zero torque but zero horsepower. It's like pushing on a building: you
apply a non-zero force, but the building doesn't move, so you've done
zero work (though your muscles get tired trying to maintain a force!)
AEF
AEF
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 04:18:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <8fc77942-427a-4e38-bd5d-6e4166111386@l43g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 04:23:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <b939ae8b-310d-45f1-be1d-67f221e4575c@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 6:17 am, Joseph Huber <joseph.hu...@NOSPAM.web.de> wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
[...snip...]
>
> Those which collide, are no longer protons, the particles go into the
> detector mass, and in fact irradiate it.
> When the beam has lost too much of it's particles to produce usefull
> events, or because of some technical failure (magnet/power loss or
> whatever could happen), then the beam is "dumped" into a big mass of
> graphite and (or?) iron.
>
> Joseph Huber -http://www.huber-joseph.de
>
Adding to your point, hadrons are particles which feel the strong
nuclear force. This means that hadrons contain quarks, which means
that lots of quarks will be in the post-collision spray (along with
lots of other stuff created by the conversion of energy into mass).
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:29:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <fe763ef0-6c3f-47dc-a233-c14d8b42c2b0@l43g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 6:17 am, Joseph Huber <joseph.hu...@NOSPAM.web.de> wrote:
>
> JF Mezei wrote:
[...snip...]
>
> Those which collide, are no longer protons, the particles go into the
> detector mass, and in fact irradiate it.
> When the beam has lost too much =A0of it's particles to produce usefull
> events, or because of some technical failure (magnet/power loss or
> whatever could happen), then the beam is "dumped" into a big mass of
> graphite and (or?) iron.
>
> =A0 Joseph Huber =A0 -http://www.huber-joseph.de
I've been trying to post this for 4 days but recently discovered that
Google Groups will not allow me to post text containing the word
comprised of the phonem "fun" + "da" + "ment" + "al" so I've replaced
that word with the mnemonic FDM
Adding to your point, hadrons are particles which feel the strong
force. This means that hadrons contain quarks, which means that lots
of quarks will be in the post-collision spray (along with lots of
other stuff created by the conversion of energy into mass).
p.s. modern physicists no longer think of a proton as a FDM particle.
A proton is now treated as a "particle system" consisting of 3 quarks
(two ups and one down).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton
Likewise, a neutron is now treated as a "particle system" consisting
of 3 quarks (one up and two downs).
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <b4d61686-6085-47ce-9f6c-00c35f3b608b@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 1:16 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <mgGbL$CkT...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
> > In article <gb00gi$e90$0...@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Krae...@gsi.de> writes:
>
> >> What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ?
> >> It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and
> >> (probably numerous) sheets of paper.
>
> > There was cost in performing the experiments that led to knowing
> > we needed Einstein's theory. Not to mention him knowing what his
> > theory had to explain.
There were also costs in verifying the theory. Accelerators and flying
atomic clocks around the world and what not don't compare to the LHC
in cost, but they aren't free, either.
> > There was cost in performing Columbus' experiement, too. Failed
> > in his goal to reach the far east by sailing west. Failed
> > experiments can be vitally important.
>
> Now there's a very good comparison. Columbus was a fraud or an idiot
> who successfully sold snake oil to the king and queen of Spain. And
> that is exactly how I see a lot of what passes for science today except
> I have eliminated the possibility that the perps are idiots. (And,
Can you give some examples (besides global warming as your being
convinced it is doesn't make it so, and that horse is long well dead)?
Thanks.
> in case your curious, I hold that Columbus was also no idiot. He was
> however an exceptional fraud who suckered Spain into financing a
> boondogle he knew could not deliver what he promised!!)
Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Columbus and his crew run out of
rations before they hit land? If so, how does that constitute fraud?
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
AEF
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 02:28:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: sampsal@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <b069c59c-d9ab-475c-8ce0-d782feff7923@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 1:19=A0am, wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston -
SSRL Central Computing) wrote:
> Yes, it's possible. =A0VMS has to run under the virtual machine
supervisor that
> runs on HP/UX, so your actual hardware is running HP/UX. =A0
>
> -- Alan
Thanks Alan,
Is there hobbyist licensing available for HP/UX? Or other affordable
options for acquiring it? What versions etc will I need?
Sampsa
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:19:21 GMT
From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <00A7FCCE.306025DD@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
In article <b069c59c-d9ab-475c-8ce0-d782feff7923@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes:
>On Sep 18, 1:19=A0am, wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston -
>SSRL Central Computing) wrote:
> > Yes, it's possible. =A0VMS has to run under the virtual machine
>supervisor that
>> runs on HP/UX, so your actual hardware is running HP/UX. =A0
>>
>> -- Alan
>
>Thanks Alan,
>
>Is there hobbyist licensing available for HP/UX? Or other affordable
>options for acquiring it? What versions etc will I need?
I am altogether clueless on this, sorry.
-- Alan
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:39:07 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <XLDU4NS+nzG9@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <c9f26016-b47f-4278-a8c1-c595e2f0e26d@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes:
> Is this possible? http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-5801ENW.pdf
> seems to indicate that they're planning on this being available:
>
> "OpenVMS Virtual Machines is running in the lab on Intel=AEMontecito
> prototype systems as of December
> 2005, with first production shipments planned for 2007"
This is not exactly news.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:41:58 +0100
From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <gatiam$f49$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>
<sampsal@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b069c59c-d9ab-475c-8ce0-d782feff7923@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>Is there hobbyist licensing available for HP/UX? Or other affordable
>options for acquiring it? What versions etc will I need?
OpenVMS 8.4, don't know about the supervisor.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: sampsal@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <de3ad46f-eba5-482a-a5e9-3fdecdf2cd6d@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 1:39=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob
Koehler) wrote:
> In article <c9f26016-b47f-4278-a8c1-c595e2f0e...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups=
.com>, samp...@gmail.com writes:
>
> > Is this possible?http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-5801ENW.p=
df
> > seems to indicate that they're planning on this being available:
>
> > "OpenVMS Virtual Machines is running in the lab on Intel=3DAEMontecito
> > prototype systems as of December
> > 2005, with first production shipments planned for 2007"
>
> =A0 =A0This is not exactly news.
No I realise that but was unable to find anything more recent about
this, hence the question to comp.os.vms.
Sampsa
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: IanMiller <gxys@uk2.net>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <3905c618-f8b8-4d24-b754-91b367b1ba52@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 18, 3:44=A0pm, samp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 1:39=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob
>
> Koehler) wrote:
> > In article <c9f26016-b47f-4278-a8c1-c595e2f0e...@z72g2000hsb.googlegrou=
ps.com>, samp...@gmail.com writes:
>
> > > Is this possible?http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-5801ENW=
.pdf
> > > seems to indicate that they're planning on this being available:
>
> > > "OpenVMS Virtual Machines is running in the lab on Intel=3DAEMontecit=
o
> > > prototype systems as of December
> > > 2005, with first production shipments planned for 2007"
>
> > =A0 =A0This is not exactly news.
>
> No I realise that but was unable to find anything more recent about
> this, hence the question to comp.os.vms.
>
> Sampsa
The public information is in the VMS roadmap slide 8 & 9.
http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/roadmap
HPVM =96 Integrity Virtual Machine V4 and OpenVMS V8.4 is mentioned
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: yyyc186 <yyyc186@hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 17, 7:19=A0pm, wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston -
SSRL Central Computing) wrote:
>
> Yes, it's possible. =A0VMS has to run under the virtual machine superviso=
r that
> runs on HP/UX, so your actual hardware is running HP/UX. =A0
>
So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an
industry wide joke.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:33:46 -0400
From: "John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <WIednSuKXZSWN07VnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"yyyc186" <yyyc186@hughes.net> wrote in message
news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an
industry wide joke.
My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut
down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX. It isn't a full multi-user
environment that you can log into. If you want to run HP-UX, you run it
virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS.
John
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:24:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <07f7e7af-adfb-42f5-9d12-fd58384d3296@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 9:33=A0am, "John Reagan" <johnrrea...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "yyyc186" <yyyc...@hughes.net> wrote in message
>
> news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
> So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an
> industry wide joke.
>
> My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut
> down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX. =A0It isn't a full multi-user
> environment that you can log into. =A0If you want to run HP-UX, you run i=
t
> virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS.
>
> John
John,
This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do
wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to
"strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL
of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:31:50 -0700
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <op.uhqircpwhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:24:17 -0700, jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 19, 9:33 am, "John Reagan" <johnrrea...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> "yyyc186" <yyyc...@hughes.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an
>> industry wide joke.
>>
>> My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut
>> down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX. It isn't a full multi-user
>> environment that you can log into. If you want to run HP-UX, you run it
>> virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS.
>>
>> John
>
> John,
>
> This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do
> wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to
> "strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL
> of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top.
>
> Joe
What launches the Virtual Machine? Unix typically boots to single user and
then multi-user, although the boot scripts often automate (^D) to
multi-user.
So the question is if is possible to launch the VM from single user?
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <8e59cf75-4d05-4475-8f59-1d0a658897d1@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 19, 11:31=A0am, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:24:17 -0700, jferraro <jferr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 19, 9:33=A0am, "John Reagan" <johnrrea...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> "yyyc186" <yyyc...@hughes.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com..=
.
>
> >> So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an
> >> industry wide joke.
>
> >> My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut
> >> down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX. =A0It isn't a full multi-u=
ser
> >> environment that you can log into. =A0If you want to run HP-UX, you ru=
n it
> >> virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS.
>
> >> John
>
> > John,
>
> > This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do
> > wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to
> > "strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL
> > of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top.
>
> > Joe
>
> What launches the Virtual Machine? =A0Unix typically boots to single user=
and
> then multi-user, although the boot scripts often automate (^D) to =A0
> multi-user.
> So the question is if is possible to launch the VM from single user?
>
> --
> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com
Once the underlying HP-UX [hypervisor] is booted, one can launch one's
VMs by using `hpvmconsole` or with an appropriate script. While I've
not attempted to bring up IVM from single user, my guess is that you'd
need at least [default] run-level 2 since, I believe, the guests rely
on the underlying hosts TCP-IP stack and network devices, for example.
By default, hpvm is started at run-level 2 on the underlying host:
# model
ia64 hp server rx7640
# ls -l /sbin/rc2.d/|grep hpvm
lrwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 17 Sep 12 13:55 S529hpvm -> /
sbin/init.d/hpvm
# ls -l /sbin/rc3.d/|grep hpvm
lrwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 25 Sep 12 13:55
S829hpvmguestlib -> /sbin/init.d/hpvmguestlib
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:20:12 -0400
From: "John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium?
Message-ID: <TaCdnUo5uOP8m0jVnZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"jferraro" <jferraro@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07f7e7af-adfb-42f5-9d12-fd58384d3296@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do
>wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to
>"strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL
>of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top.
Then I stand corrected. I was only partially paying attention at the
meeting when all
of this was explained to members of my team. Perhaps that was the original
intention
but later things changed? Who knows.
John
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:50:53 +0800
From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>
Subject: Silverlight native TCP/IP Socket support in V2
Message-ID: <gb073o$13g$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>
Hi,
A FYI for those of you who, like me, missed this a couple of months back: -
Silverlight has introduced native Socket support with version 2 (which looks
to be in about its second beta release). Sadly, only TCP at present but I'm
sure UDP and multicast won't be far off. Please see Microsoft's
system.net.sockets for more.
Another thing I found interesting was that the other Adobe functionality
that I dearly love (the Flex to Javascript FABridge) appears to have been
emulated via Microsoft's "HTML Bridge". Think - "Java Sockets have more
functionality, and I still can push the results over to Silverlight for
presentation".
So with Microsoft fully supporting Silverlight on Windows *and* OS X (and
that 3rd party Linux freeware thing) one finds oneself enviably spoilt for
choice when it comes to SUN Java Applets, Adobe Flex, or Microsoft
Silverlight. (In addition to the standard HTML/Javascript/CSS options.) as
the GUI offerings for your trusted VMS servers. *It just doesn't get any
better than this!* (You pointless IFDL, DECWindows, EDT, TECO pieces of shit
:-)
Imagine: -
. Rock Solid VMS performance, disaster tolerance, and security
. Huge heritage of business-rules, data, and 3GL code
. Internet- Explorer, FireFox, Chrome, (and the also rans) as a launch-agent
. (JavaScript, HTML, Java, Flex, Silverlight) as your GUI and the world is
yours!!!
. VMS applications fully integrated with your web-facing *nix or IIS
infrastructure
I mean "What's it all about eh???"
. SUN "We like" Java Applet Socket Support
. Adobe "We like" Flex Socket Support
. Microsoft "We like" Silverlight Socket support
. HTML5 "We like" "bollocks :-(" [Web]socket support
You can front-end your existing *and future* VMS 3GL +/- Rdb (or Orrible
Oracle) code with all of this amazing technology, *and you can do it today!*
TIER3 - Be upstanding you ignorant swine, for you are in the presence of
greatness!
Or maybe you can rock-up to the technical update days and listen to how
great Java on VMS is? How great SOAP is 'cos Eric IONA, Doh! Progress Doh!
says it is? How great WSIT is and how all of those VMS/3GL sites are
flocking to it and not abandoning their beloved OS in droves? How millions
of license payer dollars were not really lost on Bridgeworks 'cos this is
America and with the stroke of a pen the incumbents can insist that they did
nothing wrong while socializing the losses after having privatised the
profits for so many years?
You have the constitutional and God-given right to bear arms; maybe it's
time VMS middle management were made aware of your willingness to exercise
that right?
Cheers Richard Maher
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:32:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: sms@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda)
Subject: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <08092100325425_20202860@antinode.info>
SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days.
I'm (still) using:
HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 7
on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2
with an SSH service limit of 64, which helps to limit the duration of a
typical attack, because the attackers appear to leave connections open
long enough to hit the limit. After an OPCOM message like: "INTERnet
ACP SSH Reject Request - service limit - from Host: 210.48.157.82 Port:
45443", the attack ends, and then, over a period of some minutes, the
connections are cleared out, so normal operation can resume.
With a higher service limit, the attacks run longer, wasting
resources. With a smaller limit, an attack becomes a (temporary) denial
of service, until some of the connections dissipate.
It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
connection limit. I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH
connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that
kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more
legitimate sources.
Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in
some new TCPIP version?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info
382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818
Saint Paul MN 55105-2547
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:10:59 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <48d60243$0$12404$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Steven M. Schweda wrote:
> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
> connection limit.
> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in
> some new TCPIP version?)
What is really needed is the breaking evasion system to be configurable
to call some shareable image or DCL procedure whenever an event occurs
and provide it with the appropriate information.
Then, sites could write code that implements their own policies. (for
instance, adding a block for that IP at the router level, at the TCPIP
stack level for X minutes, or sending a message to a pager etc etc).
Of course, this isn't of much use for all of the TCPIP software that
doesn't call the intrusion detection stuff and allow thousands of login
attempts to go unlogged.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:50:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: H Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de>
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <2f6d53bc-547c-4df0-99d6-786c88009d63@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On 21 sep, 07:32, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote:
> =A0 =A0SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days.
> I'm (still) using:
>
> =A0 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 7
> =A0 on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2
>
> with an SSH service limit of 64, which helps to limit the duration of a
> typical attack, because the attackers appear to leave connections open
> long enough to hit the limit. =A0After an OPCOM message like: "INTERnet
> ACP SSH Reject Request - service limit - from Host: 210.48.157.82 Port:
> 45443", the attack ends, and then, over a period of some minutes, the
> connections are cleared out, so normal operation can resume.
>
> =A0 =A0With a higher service limit, the attacks run longer, wasting
> resources. =A0With a smaller limit, an attack becomes a (temporary) denia=
l
> of service, until some of the connections dissipate.
>
> =A0 =A0It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
> connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH
> connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that
> kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more
> legitimate sources.
>
> =A0 =A0Anyone else think that this might be useful? =A0(Or is it already =
in
> some new TCPIP version?)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> =A0 =A0Steven M. Schweda =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 sms@antinode-info
> =A0 =A0382 South Warwick Street =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(+1) 651-699-9818
> =A0 =A0Saint Paul =A0MN =A055105-2547
Interesting. My Digital Server 5305 has been turned on for two weeks
now and yesterday evening an
SSH attempt to logon on failed. I was using OPA0: so that's why I saw
the intrusion.
As it happens, I scan twice a month for login failures: ACC/SINCE=3D..../
TYPE=3DLOGFAIL/FULL
And learned that SSH intrusions are logged differently. Well, TELNET
intrusions happen two to four times
a month. But SSH intrusions happen twice a day; at least. TRACEROUTE
tells you interesting things, though.
About 30% comes from Russia, 20% from Asia, 10% is Europe and the
rest, believe it or not, from California !
The message code returned by ACCOUNTING is %x1764CFBC, which I can't
translate to a text for some reason.
BTW the system runs:
$ tcpip sho ver
HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.6 - ECO 2
on a DIGITAL Server 5000 Model 5305 6533A 5/533 4MB running OpenVMS
V8.3
$
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:04:54 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <00A7FF51.93B541CC@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <48d60243$0$12404$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Steven M. Schweda wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
>> connection limit.
>
>> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in
>> some new TCPIP version?)
>
>What is really needed is the breaking evasion system to be configurable
>to call some shareable image or DCL procedure whenever an event occurs
>and provide it with the appropriate information.
>
>Then, sites could write code that implements their own policies. (for
>instance, adding a block for that IP at the router level, at the TCPIP
>stack level for X minutes, or sending a message to a pager etc etc).
>
>Of course, this isn't of much use for all of the TCPIP software that
>doesn't call the intrusion detection stuff and allow thousands of login
>attempts to go unlogged.
I wrote a bit of code I called SSH PEER. It gets the remote IP address
of an SSH client and displays it in the ACCPORNAM field of the terminal.
It's some of my same technology which Process Software is using in Multi-
Net and TCPware. If HP won't add such capabilities to their SSH, I could
augment SSH_PEER with what you describe or even create a whole new beg of
code to implement this.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:04:34 -0500
From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton)
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <slrngdcl3h.55o.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>
In article <08092100325425_20202860@antinode.info>, Steven M. Schweda wrote:
> SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days.
>I'm (still) using:
[...]
> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
>connection limit. I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH
>connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that
>kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more
>legitimate sources.
>
> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in
>some new TCPIP version?)
I realize that you've asked for a particular way to skin a cat, but if you
would like a different approach, visit Aaron's OpenVMS Hobbyist website, where
he has created a Q 'n' D to detect intruders, and add netowrk routes that point
to a "bitbucket" local address to limit the amount of resources these creeps
consume.
I've adopted the routine for my TCPware stack, and added the suspects to a
command file which is executed on startup, and re-routes the IP addresses to
the bitbucket. Downside: my routing table is getting bigger and bigger -
perhaps this will represent unwanted overhead on the IP stack?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:59:27 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <00A7FF61.945F9460@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <slrngdcl3h.55o.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>, BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) writes:
>In article <08092100325425_20202860@antinode.info>, Steven M. Schweda wrote:
>> SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days.
>>I'm (still) using:
>[...]
>> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
>>connection limit. I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH
>>connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that
>>kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more
>>legitimate sources.
>>
>> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in
>>some new TCPIP version?)
>
>I realize that you've asked for a particular way to skin a cat, but if you
>would like a different approach, visit Aaron's OpenVMS Hobbyist website, where
>he has created a Q 'n' D to detect intruders, and add netowrk routes that point
>to a "bitbucket" local address to limit the amount of resources these creeps
>consume.
URL to this item?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:17:41 -0500
From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton)
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <slrngdcpcl.55o.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>
In article <00A7FF61.945F9460@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>In article <slrngdcl3h.55o.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) writes:
[...]
>>I realize that you've asked for a particular way to skin a cat, but if you
>>would like a different approach, visit Aaron's OpenVMS Hobbyist website, where
>>he has created a Q 'n' D to detect intruders, and add netowrk routes that point
>>to a "bitbucket" local address to limit the amount of resources these creeps
>>consume.
>
>URL to this item?
<http://openvms.hobby-site.com/pivot/entry.php?id=55#comm>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 05:49:56 -0700
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <op.uhvu9iolhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:04:54 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:
> In article <48d60243$0$12404$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
> <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Steven M. Schweda wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
>>> connection limit.
>>
>>> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in
>>> some new TCPIP version?)
>>
>> What is really needed is the breaking evasion system to be configurable
>> to call some shareable image or DCL procedure whenever an event occurs
>> and provide it with the appropriate information.
>>
>> Then, sites could write code that implements their own policies. (for
>> instance, adding a block for that IP at the router level, at the TCPIP
>> stack level for X minutes, or sending a message to a pager etc etc).
>>
>> Of course, this isn't of much use for all of the TCPIP software that
>> doesn't call the intrusion detection stuff and allow thousands of login
>> attempts to go unlogged.
>
> I wrote a bit of code I called SSH PEER. It gets the remote IP address
> of an SSH client and displays it in the ACCPORNAM field of the terminal.
> It's some of my same technology which Process Software is using in Multi-
> Net and TCPware. If HP won't add such capabilities to their SSH, I could
> augment SSH_PEER with what you describe or even create a whole new beg of
> code to implement this.
Typically these attacks, as I have observed, do port scanning from some IP,
that might lead to a strategy for detection.
>
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:42:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <a699a567-cb65-4412-bcfa-47a36fc4ea00@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
> > =A0 It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
> >connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH
> >connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that
> >kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more
>
> I've adopted the routine for my TCPware stack, and added the suspects to =
a
> command file which is executed on startup, and re-routes the IP addresses=
to
> the bitbucket. =A0Downside: my routing table is getting bigger and bigger=
-
> perhaps this will represent unwanted overhead on the IP stack?
Perhaps you should look at automatically flushing the route tables
similarly to some of the
IDS software I've seen in the *nix world. It seems to me that even a
deny for 30 mins
would thwart many of the attacks - since 99% of what I've seen are
from script-kiddies
with brute-force methods.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:26:49 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <00A8002E.911BEFEF@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <a699a567-cb65-4412-bcfa-47a36fc4ea00@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, jferraro <jferraro@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> > =A0 It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
>> >connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH
>> >connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that
>> >kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more
>>
>> I've adopted the routine for my TCPware stack, and added the suspects to =
>a
>> command file which is executed on startup, and re-routes the IP addresses=
> to
>> the bitbucket. =A0Downside: my routing table is getting bigger and bigger=
> -
>> perhaps this will represent unwanted overhead on the IP stack?
>
>Perhaps you should look at automatically flushing the route tables
>similarly to some of the
>IDS software I've seen in the *nix world. It seems to me that even a
>deny for 30 mins
>would thwart many of the attacks - since 99% of what I've seen are
>from script-kiddies
>with brute-force methods.
The simplest way to reduce (read, not eliminate) this is to move off
of default port 22!
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com
Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts
Message-ID: <d7e8bd50-5b75-4985-b4bf-d231970c466b@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 21, 2:50=A0am, H Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
> On 21 sep, 07:32, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote:
>
>
>
> > =A0 =A0SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these day=
s.
> > I'm (still) using:
>
> > =A0 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 7
> > =A0 on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2
>
> > with an SSH service limit of 64, which helps to limit the duration of a
> > typical attack, because the attackers appear to leave connections open
> > long enough to hit the limit. =A0After an OPCOM message like: "INTERnet
> > ACP SSH Reject Request - service limit - from Host: 210.48.157.82 Port:
> > 45443", the attack ends, and then, over a period of some minutes, the
> > connections are cleared out, so normal operation can resume.
>
> > =A0 =A0With a higher service limit, the attacks run longer, wasting
> > resources. =A0With a smaller limit, an attack becomes a (temporary) den=
ial
> > of service, until some of the connections dissipate.
>
> > =A0 =A0It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address
> > connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH
> > connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that
> > kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more
> > legitimate sources.
>
> > =A0 =A0Anyone else think that this might be useful? =A0(Or is it alread=
y in
> > some new TCPIP version?)
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>
> > =A0 =A0Steven M. Schweda =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 sms@antinode-info
> > =A0 =A0382 South Warwick Street =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(+1) 651-699-9818
> > =A0 =A0Saint Paul =A0MN =A055105-2547
>
> Interesting. My Digital Server 5305 has been turned on for two weeks
> now and yesterday evening an
> SSH attempt to logon on failed. I was using OPA0: so that's why I saw
> the intrusion.
> As it happens, I scan twice a month for login failures: ACC/SINCE=3D..../
> TYPE=3DLOGFAIL/FULL
> And learned that SSH intrusions are logged differently. Well, TELNET
> intrusions happen two to four times
> a month. But SSH intrusions happen twice a day; at least. TRACEROUTE
> tells you interesting things, though.
> About 30% comes from Russia, 20% from Asia, 10% is Europe and the
> rest, believe it or not, from California !
>
> The message code returned by ACCOUNTING is %x1764CFBC, which I can't
> translate to a text for some reason.
That would be:
$ @tools:trymsg %x1764CFBC
From SYS$COMMON:[SYSMSG]TCPIP$MSG.EXE;1...
%TCPIP-F-SSH_FATAL, non-specific fatal error condition
$
Not particularly helpful in this case, but at least it tells
which facility issued the message.
Trymsg.Com is something I happened upon long ago
(the header says the author was Douglas A. Gordon
of DEC and it was written 1988, although I added a
small fix to it) which goes sequentially through all
the message files in Sys$Message:, does a
$ SET MESSAGE <file>
to each one in turn, and then tries to retrieve the text
via F$Message. I find it particularly useful for BACKUP
messages. ;-p
-Ken
P.S. Sorry to VAXMAN for the Q-P, but Google Groups
is my sole newsgroups access on weekdays.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joshua Lehrer <usenet_vms@lehrerfamily.com>
Subject: testing a pointer
Message-ID: <380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>
I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the
memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that
you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather
than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am
I imagining things, or does the routine exist?
thanks
joshua lehrer
http://www.lehrerfamily.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: IanMiller <gxys@uk2.net>
Subject: Re: testing a pointer
Message-ID: <6e5684aa-488c-4e23-a846-6fe067808e62@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 22, 5:32=A0pm, Joshua Lehrer <usenet_...@lehrerfamily.com> wrote:
> I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the
> memory address is readable and/or writeable. =A0I further recall that
> you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather
> than an actual memory address. =A0I can't seem to find the routine. =A0Am
> I imagining things, or does the routine exist?
>
> thanks
>
> joshua lehrerhttp://www.lehrerfamily.com/
There is PROBER and PROBEW available in MACRO32 and as C builtins
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/commercial/c/docs/5492profile_032.html
------------------------------
Date: 22 Sep 2008 12:57:01 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: testing a pointer
Message-ID: <Rf7W$7LHShov@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Joshua Lehrer <usenet_vms@lehrerfamily.com> writes:
> I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the
> memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that
> you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather
> than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am
> I imagining things, or does the routine exist?
The PROBEx instructions do this for VAXen, and on Alpha PAL_PROBEx.
If you're programming in C there is a builtin for getting to these,
that is probably somehow supported on I64.
You can also access a lot of instructions via LIB$instruction named
routines, but PROBEx aren't amoung them as most applications would
not do this.
You can also set up an exception handler and intentionally reference
the locations.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:19:28 GMT
From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: testing a pointer
Message-ID: <00A80046.AFA0C919@SendSpamHere.ORG>
In article <Rf7W$7LHShov@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Joshua Lehrer <usenet_vms@lehrerfamily.com> writes:
>> I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the
>> memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that
>> you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather
>> than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am
>> I imagining things, or does the routine exist?
>
> The PROBEx instructions do this for VAXen, and on Alpha PAL_PROBEx.
> If you're programming in C there is a builtin for getting to these,
> that is probably somehow supported on I64.
>
> You can also access a lot of instructions via LIB$instruction named
> routines, but PROBEx aren't amoung them as most applications would
> not do this.
>
> You can also set up an exception handler and intentionally reference
> the locations.
Depending upon what you are doing, you can also establish EXE$SIGTORET as
your procedure's condition handler and simply go reference whatever your
pointer points to. If you can't access it, the ACCVIO will be translated
to a return status (SS$_ACCVIO) by EXE$SIGTORET in your routine.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)
Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
notice, disclaimer and quotations.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:35:21 +0800
From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>
Subject: Re: testing a pointer
Message-ID: <gb96fm$a7b$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>
Hi Joshua,
> Am
> I imagining things, or does the routine exist?
FWIW, I use the IFNORD/WRT macros rather than the PROBEx instructions
directly.
IIRC exe$probe[r] lets you check all pages in a range (not just first and
last?) and specify a range of addresses/pages > 65535 bytes.
(R3 = Previous Mode, R1 = Number of Bytes, R0 = base address)
Cheers Richard Maher
"Joshua Lehrer" <usenet_vms@lehrerfamily.com> wrote in message
news:380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the
> memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that
> you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather
> than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am
> I imagining things, or does the routine exist?
>
> thanks
>
> joshua lehrer
> http://www.lehrerfamily.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:58:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
Subject: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
<<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the
recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other
metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). That is how we ended up
moving a mission-critical VAX/VMS application from =93a dual host
VAX-4300 cluster with 20 spindles on four DSSI busses=94 to =93a platform
consisting of two DL380 chassis and one full MSA chassis=94 even though
we still have the source code.
The new OS is Windows Server 2003 and VAX emulation is done with
CHARON. The whole thing works so you cannot blame MS, or HP, or the
CHARON product, but only time will tell if this PC solution will
outlast the VAX it replaced. My employer is responsible for three
fubars, which I will pass on to you now.
1) Even though we are using controller based RAID, someone requested
that system disk shadowing be "host based". OK, this should not be a
big deal except one of the installers was doing a VMS shutdown at the
same time another installer manually stopped the service (did I
mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT
service?). This resulted in a corrupt system disk, which meant that we
received a stack dump whenever the shadow driver loaded at the next
boot. This could only be fixed by a conversational boot (on whichever
disk was good) then remounting the mate disk to it. Ouch!
(back in the day we saw real time events like AC-low and DC-low which
would warn the processor to prepare for a catastophe; its kind of hard
to emulate that level of detail when the emulator is stopped by
someone without enough caffeine :-)
2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to
get involved too. So even though this is not a real Windows
application, they decided to configure all the windows domain stuff.
Now any corporate idiot browsing the windows domain can see this box
and attempt to connect with it (hopefully network-based authentication
and privs work properly). The first time our application went off-line
seemed to coincide with something in the Windows event log with a
message similar to =93arbitrating for Windows domain mastership=94 or some
such nonsense.
(One NIC belongs to Windows whilst the other two belong to VMS; Others
have told me that smart CHARON users unplug the Windows NIC and only
reconnect it when Windows maintenance is required. Not so with my
employer)
3) This is a Windows box on our corporate intranet so someone decided
to install McAfee anti-virus protection. The CHARON installation group
warned everyone to restrict McAfee to only monitoring the =93C=94
partition. Two days later, another nosy Windows expert noticed that
McAfee was misconfigured and so decided to help us poor sods. That is
when McAfee noticed some software mysteriously writing directly to the
=93D=94 partition, assumed it was a virus then shut it down. Did I mention
that CHARON runs out of the =93D=94 partition? That virus was CHARON.
Ouch!
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:46:55 -0600
From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam.>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <oMudnWwAJMtMXUvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
I assume your point is that people are stupid. None of this sounds like a
VMS, CHARON, or Windows problem. It sounds more like non-existent
configuration management on even less communications.
Mike Ober.
"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
<<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the
recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other
metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). That is how we ended up
moving a mission-critical VAX/VMS application from “a dual host
VAX-4300 cluster with 20 spindles on four DSSI busses” to “a platform
consisting of two DL380 chassis and one full MSA chassis” even though
we still have the source code.
The new OS is Windows Server 2003 and VAX emulation is done with
CHARON. The whole thing works so you cannot blame MS, or HP, or the
CHARON product, but only time will tell if this PC solution will
outlast the VAX it replaced. My employer is responsible for three
fubars, which I will pass on to you now.
1) Even though we are using controller based RAID, someone requested
that system disk shadowing be "host based". OK, this should not be a
big deal except one of the installers was doing a VMS shutdown at the
same time another installer manually stopped the service (did I
mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT
service?). This resulted in a corrupt system disk, which meant that we
received a stack dump whenever the shadow driver loaded at the next
boot. This could only be fixed by a conversational boot (on whichever
disk was good) then remounting the mate disk to it. Ouch!
(back in the day we saw real time events like AC-low and DC-low which
would warn the processor to prepare for a catastophe; its kind of hard
to emulate that level of detail when the emulator is stopped by
someone without enough caffeine :-)
2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to
get involved too. So even though this is not a real Windows
application, they decided to configure all the windows domain stuff.
Now any corporate idiot browsing the windows domain can see this box
and attempt to connect with it (hopefully network-based authentication
and privs work properly). The first time our application went off-line
seemed to coincide with something in the Windows event log with a
message similar to “arbitrating for Windows domain mastership” or some
such nonsense.
(One NIC belongs to Windows whilst the other two belong to VMS; Others
have told me that smart CHARON users unplug the Windows NIC and only
reconnect it when Windows maintenance is required. Not so with my
employer)
3) This is a Windows box on our corporate intranet so someone decided
to install McAfee anti-virus protection. The CHARON installation group
warned everyone to restrict McAfee to only monitoring the “C”
partition. Two days later, another nosy Windows expert noticed that
McAfee was misconfigured and so decided to help us poor sods. That is
when McAfee noticed some software mysteriously writing directly to the
“D” partition, assumed it was a virus then shut it down. Did I mention
that CHARON runs out of the “D” partition? That virus was CHARON.
Ouch!
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:51:25 +0200
From: Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <gb6fjm$ent$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Neil Rieck schrieb:
> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
>
> It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the
> recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other
> metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership).
TCO is only important if it shows that the desired "new"
solution is cheaper than the "old" one.
Most of the time, however, it's the price of the hardware
which counts.
> (did I
> mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT
> service?).
Being cynical, one could ask who was the idiot that decided
that NT is the OS of choice to host Charon as a VAX/VMS emulator.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:57:28 -0500
From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton)
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <slrngddgq7.55o.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>
"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
><<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
[...]
>1) Even though we are using controller based RAID, someone requested
>that system disk shadowing be "host based". OK, this should not be a
>big deal except one of the installers was doing a VMS shutdown at the
>same time another installer manually stopped the service (did I
>mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT
>service?). This resulted in a corrupt system disk, which meant that we
>received a stack dump whenever the shadow driver loaded at the next
>boot. This could only be fixed by a conversational boot (on whichever
>disk was good) then remounting the mate disk to it. Ouch!
I was surprised at first to think that an emulator could allow for HBVS, but
I'm glad to see it can be done. Question, though: Did you mean to imply that
you had *both* RAID and HBVS in the same system? Seems a mite complicated to
me.
My other comment is that once HBVS was decided upon, all management tasks
should have been turned over to the VMS-knowledgeable folks, since HBVS is a
critter not seen outside of VMS.
>2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to
>get involved too. So even though this is not a real Windows
>application, they decided to configure all the windows domain stuff.
See my comment above - VMS, whether emulated or not, should properly be the
"domain" of those trained to use it. :-)
[...]
>3) This is a Windows box on our corporate intranet so someone decided
>to install McAfee anti-virus protection. The CHARON installation group
>warned everyone to restrict McAfee to only monitoring the “C”
>partition. Two days later, another nosy Windows expert noticed that
>McAfee was misconfigured and so decided to help us poor sods. That is
>when McAfee noticed some software mysteriously writing directly to the
>“D” partition, assumed it was a virus then shut it down. Did I mention
>that CHARON runs out of the “D” partition? That virus was CHARON.
Didn't you realize that VMS stands for "Virus Management System"?
:-)
[...]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:16:18 -0400
From: "John Smith" <John.Smith@NotTheOneAtHP.com>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <a5ea1$48d6d0d1$4c0aaa0d$28510@TEKSAVVY.COM>
"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message
news:gb6fjm$ent$03$1@news.t-online.com...
> Neil Rieck schrieb:
>> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
>>
>> It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the
>> recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other
>> metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership).
>
> TCO is only important if it shows that the desired "new"
> solution is cheaper than the "old" one.
> Most of the time, however, it's the price of the hardware
> which counts.
>
>> (did I
>> mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT
>> service?).
>
> Being cynical, one could ask who was the idiot that decided
> that NT is the OS of choice to host Charon as a VAX/VMS emulator.
>
Being only mildly cynical, Bob 'GQ' Palmer and all who came after him......
except Pfeiffer.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:45:42 -0400
From: "Steven Underwood" <nobody@spamcop.net>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <56BBk.16626$Dj1.154@newsfe01.iad>
"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
<<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the
recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other
metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). That is how we ended up
moving a mission-critical VAX/VMS application from “a dual host
VAX-4300 cluster with 20 spindles on four DSSI busses” to “a platform
consisting of two DL380 chassis and one full MSA chassis” even though
we still have the source code.
The new OS is Windows Server 2003 and VAX emulation is done with
CHARON. The whole thing works so you cannot blame MS, or HP, or the
CHARON product, but only time will tell if this PC solution will
outlast the VAX it replaced.
I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX
7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon
solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I could not
realistically even propose the solution.
As it turned out, the DR system was not purchased either as "we are going to
start working of a replacement platform very shortly". Of course that has
not happened either.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:57:15 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <48d6fc32$0$12403$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Neil Rieck wrote:
> (back in the day we saw real time events like AC-low and DC-low which
> would warn the processor to prepare for a catastophe; its kind of hard
> to emulate that level of detail when the emulator is stopped by
> someone without enough caffeine :-)
Oktoberfest just started in Munich. I assume Oktoberfest would also
start at the same time in Kitchener ? Consuming industrial quantities of
beer does have some effect on decision taking :-) :-) :-)
> 2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to
> get involved too.
Politically, this should not have been sold as a VMS system running
under windows. It should have been sold as a turnkey VAX emulator on an
8086 machine with specially configured OS.
Another avenue is to have upper management pass an edict to force
special standards/configs for that machine to prevent the MS geeks from
deploying normal corporate windows environment/standards on those machines.
Failing this, you would have needed to spend a lot of hours with the
windows people to explain this environment and why windows only exist to
host an applicationa and that none of the standard windows services must
be enabled.
Doesn't Charron also run on Linux ? It would have been more politically
savvy to somehow find the arguments that would have convinced upper
management to go with VAX hosted on a Linux instance since this way,
your windows folks would not have touched it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:49:24 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the
Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by
only the VMS system manager for that box ?
Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:13:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <4b656635-ad34-4216-94bb-d3ef2fb5f466@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 21, 9:57=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
[...snip...]
>
> Oktoberfest just started in Munich. =A0I assume Oktoberfest would also
> start at the same time in Kitchener ? Consuming industrial quantities of
> =A0beer does have some effect on decision taking :-) :-) :-)
>
Our Oktoberfest always starts on the Friday before the Canadian
Thanksgiving weekend. This year it starts on October 10. Doing it this
way, many people can enjoy both.
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:26:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <c52205b1-89dc-4008-ba38-53ce665b31a0@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 22, 4:49=A0am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the
> Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by
> only the VMS system manager for that box ?
>
> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
My employer has been an unofficial MS booster club for years. The
WinTel people now see this as "their time" to run things and so have
official access to alomost everything. There are no official VMS
managers anymore as this work has been contracted out. During the
cutover conference calls, there were usually 10 people on the line:
usually 3 employees, and 7 contractors (spread across 3 external
vendors). I'm assuming this crazy situation is happening at most large
as well.
Oh and one final point: most decisions are being made/influenced by 30-
year-old MBAs with no computer experience other than they used one in
University. (What do you need that non-MS stuff for? I never saw it in
school so it must be dying or dead)
NSR
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:43:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <c516cc1d-d0d1-4851-8706-18dbc3400930@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
On Sep 22, 9:49 am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the
> Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by
> only the VMS system manager for that box ?
>
> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
Those authorised as administrators on the Windows domain can typically
get admin access to any machine which is a member of the domain, and
can therefore do all the things which Neil mentioned them doing,
because as Neil said back in the first post, this machine was set up
as a member of the domain. Why that was done is an interesting
question, but "because we always do it that way" (ie we always blindly
follow the same procedures regardless of whether they are sensible or
relevant in any particular case) is a likely answer.
Wrt: "can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?"
Often, yes. Even if they don't immediately get admin access,
elevation of privilege exploits allow users to get admin-class access
when they're not authorised for admin access. Exploits permitting this
kind of thing emerge about as frequently as they are fixed. And then
there are the various legitimate (?) "rescue discs" that allow admin
access assuming you've got physical access to the machine to reboot it
from CD/USB/etc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 06:06:11 -0700
From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <op.uhvv0ld6hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:26:42 -0700, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> On Sep 22, 4:49 am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the
>> Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by
>> only the VMS system manager for that box ?
>>
>> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
>
> My employer has been an unofficial MS booster club for years. The
> WinTel people now see this as "their time" to run things and so have
> official access to alomost everything. There are no official VMS
> managers anymore as this work has been contracted out. During the
> cutover conference calls, there were usually 10 people on the line:
> usually 3 employees, and 7 contractors (spread across 3 external
> vendors). I'm assuming this crazy situation is happening at most large
> as well.
>
> Oh and one final point: most decisions are being made/influenced by 30-
> year-old MBAs with no computer experience other than they used one in
> University. (What do you need that non-MS stuff for? I never saw it in
> school so it must be dying or dead)
I would quietly one weekend reinstall under a stripped down Linux system
Make sure you have two NICs one for Linux and one for VMS.
>
> NSR
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:31:04 +0000 (UTC)
From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <gb8a78$jv9$1@online.de>
In article <slrngddgq7.55o.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>,
BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) writes:
> I was surprised at first to think that an emulator could allow for HBVS, but
> I'm glad to see it can be done. Question, though: Did you mean to imply that
> you had *both* RAID and HBVS in the same system? Seems a mite complicated to
> me.
It's not that unusual. Back when disks were smaller, one could use
RAID5 to make a larger virtual disk. However, each of the "individual
disks" in the RAID5 could be a HBVS shadow set. (One could also do it
the other way around, but a) one then has two RAID5 arrays and b) the
"individual disks" in the shadow set are much larger and result in
larger copy times if one physical disk fails and needs to be replaced.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:25:51 +0200
From: Wilm Boerhout <w6.boerhout@planet.nl>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <48d7d522$0$6100$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl>
on 21-9-2008 23:57 Brad Hamilton wrote...
[snip]
> I was surprised at first to think that an emulator could allow for HBVS, but
> I'm glad to see it can be done. Question, though: Did you mean to imply that
> you had *both* RAID and HBVS in the same system? Seems a mite complicated to
> me.
Well, as soon as you realize that it's the VAX *hardware* that is being
emulated,
you'll find that any and all software that runs/has run on that hardware,
will run on the emulated hardware as well. Even the hardware diagnostics!
> My other comment is that once HBVS was decided upon, all management tasks
> should have been turned over to the VMS-knowledgeable folks, since HBVS is a
> critter not seen outside of VMS.
Storage redundancy is "cheaper" in terms of systems resources when done
at the controller level, but for systems management reasons it's
sometimes advisable to just add HBVS on top. Costs a few VMS cycles, but
a VAX on a new DL380 is much faster than the original VAX, and has
CPUcapacity to spare I'm sure.
And yes, I've come across those "helpful" Windows systems admins as
well, but you learn to cope with it in the end...
/Wilm
------------------------------
Date: 22 Sep 2008 12:50:40 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <M4E6QNCyvzEc@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
Gee, that sounds so hard.
;-)
------------------------------
Date: 22 Sep 2008 18:00:34 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <6jq4q2F4727uU3@mid.individual.net>
In article <M4E6QNCyvzEc@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>
>> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
>
> Gee, that sounds so hard.
>
> ;-)
You want to stop by here and put some money on your ability to get into
a machine I set up without knowing the password?
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:31:25 -0500
From: pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter)
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <JbSdnXBk59owk0XVnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@comcast.com>
In article <6jq4q2F4727uU3@mid.individual.net>,
Bill Gunshannon <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:
>In article <M4E6QNCyvzEc@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
><jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>
>>> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
>>
>> Gee, that sounds so hard.
>>
>> ;-)
>
>You want to stop by here and put some money on your ability to get into
>a machine I set up without knowing the password?
>
>bill
>
>--
>Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>University of Scranton |
>Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bill --
Do I get physical access... If so when should I head to Pennsylvania.
With physical access to the hardware all bets are off.
bill
--
--
Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and
despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in
computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:36:43 -0400
From: "Steven Underwood" <nobody@spamcop.net>
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <46VBk.12004$Il.1936@newsfe09.iad>
"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the
> Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by
> only the VMS system manager for that box ?
>
> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
It was mentioned this was added to the corporate domain, so any Domain
Administrator would automatically get full access to the box.
------------------------------
Date: 22 Sep 2008 23:57:59 GMT
From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
Message-ID: <6jqpo7F4lkipU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <JbSdnXBk59owk0XVnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) writes:
> In article <6jq4q2F4727uU3@mid.individual.net>,
> Bill Gunshannon <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:
>>In article <M4E6QNCyvzEc@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>> In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
>><jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>>
>>>> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?
>>>
>>> Gee, that sounds so hard.
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>
>>You want to stop by here and put some money on your ability to get into
>>a machine I set up without knowing the password?
>>
>
> Bill --
>
> Do I get physical access... If so when should I head to Pennsylvania.
>
> With physical access to the hardware all bets are off.
Same rules apply to VMS.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:49:01 -0500
From: David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>
Subject: Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ?
Message-ID: <48D480BD.FC5D19F8@spam.comcast.net>
JF Mezei wrote:
>
> Is it just me in my ever-so-slightly-different universe, or is there no
> way to obtain a process' current WSquota, WSextent etc values with SHOW
> PROCESS ?
>
> [snip]
>
> I would like to know what the authorized WSEXTENT is for that job.
From DCL, no - nothing "easy".
Try SDA (ANALYZE/SYSTEM) and SHOW PROCESS within SDA to view the current
quotas and usage information.
D.J.D.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:17:45 -0500
From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton)
Subject: Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ?
Message-ID: <slrngd9qf9.2ea.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>
In article <48d09a6c$0$12392$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote:
>Is it just me in my ever-so-slightly-different universe, or is there no
>way to obtain a process' current WSquota, WSextent etc values with SHOW
>PROCESS ?
How about SHOW_QUOTA.COM at dcl.openvms.org?
[...]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:52:16 +0000
From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>
Subject: RE: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ?
Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED60D7DCB@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 12:49 AM
> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ?
>
> JF Mezei wrote:
> >
> > Is it just me in my ever-so-slightly-different universe, or is there
> no
> > way to obtain a process' current WSquota, WSextent etc values with
> SHOW
> > PROCESS ?
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > I would like to know what the authorized WSEXTENT is for that job.
>
> From DCL, no - nothing "easy".
>
> Try SDA (ANALYZE/SYSTEM) and SHOW PROCESS within SDA to view the
> current
> quotas and usage information.
>
> D.J.D.
As mentioned in my earlier reply:
On VMS V8.3+ Alpha/Integrity -
$ Show Proc x/cont
Hit W (from memory, or Q? to flip back and forth)
Regards
Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)
OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
------------------------------
Date: 19 Sep 2008 07:32:07 -0500
From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)
Subject: [OT] LHC costs, was: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours
Message-ID: <OH$vevA2mBM4@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <gb00gi$e90$00$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> AEF schrieb:
>
>>
>> Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and
>> general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that’s the only
>> commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and
>> cosmologists and the like.
>>
>> The idea that one can build a laser was first brought to light by
>> Einstein doing basic research.
>
> What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ?
> It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and
> (probably numerous) sheets of paper.
>
But OTOH, for anyone who considers the LHC expensive, consider how many
LHCs you can buy for the cost of the US$85 billion bailout by the US
government.
Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world
------------------------------
End of INFO-VAX 2008.513
************************