INFO-VAX Fri, 29 Aug 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 473 Contents: accessing memory by user-mode programs Re: Can you record DVDs on 7.2.1? Re: Can you record DVDs on 7.2.1? Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS RE: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Hobbyist rx2600 Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Re: NFS setup with TCPIP services, what causes share to not mount? Re: OT: SYSMAN Equiv. on AIX? Re: OT: SYSMAN Equiv. on AIX? Remote access vulnerability in VMS Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Re: rx2600s on eBay Re: rx2600s on eBay Re: rx2600s on eBay Re: rx2600s on eBay Re: rx2600s on eBay Re: rx2600s on eBay switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Re: switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Re: switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Re: switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: Why is EDT? Re: [RBL] Current status? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:54:20 -0400 From: John Sauter Subject: accessing memory by user-mode programs Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <6hqa98FngtrnU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> What does this have to do with the PDP-11? If the system basicly has >>> 4Meg of memory, what is to stop me from accessing a block of memory in >>> I space and writing malicious code there that I later force a branch to? >>> Ift his is impossible, what is the mechanism of the CPU that would >>> prevent it? >> 4MB of RAM is 22 bits of address space. Being a 16 bit system >> nothing a PDP-11 instruction can do will address outside of a 16 bit >> address space, only 64KB. The rest of RAM is reached via base >> address registers which the kernel controls. >> >> So if I space and D space are separated by more than 64K, you can't >> write to I space in user mode. > > So, there is no way a user can fudge with the map registers outside of the > OS using Macro or whatever? I never really looked, in depth, at how the > map boards on things like my 11/24 and 11/44 worked. I remember seeing > info in various places explaining how to program it. I was just curious > if it was possible for a user to do that on a running system. > > Can I assume things like the VAX and Alpha are strictly flat address space > with all memory visible? > > bill > > Short of exploiting a bug in the operating system, a user-mode program cannot access the mapping registers. I don't remember for sure, but I think they are in the I/O page, which user mode programs cannot access. This is enforced at the instruction-set level, so it doesn't matter what language you are coding in. The VAX and the Alpha have a strictly flat address space, but it is not the case that all memory is visible. Any address used by a user-mode program is first fed to the paging logic, which will fault if the address is not valid, and translate it through the page table if it is. Thus, a user-mode program can only access the memory that the operating system allows it to access. John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:22:46 -0700 (PDT) From: vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de Subject: Re: Can you record DVDs on 7.2.1? Message-ID: On 28 Aug., 20:53, tadamsmar wrote: > Can you record DVDs or CDs using 7.2.1? If you are willing to invest some money look here: www.dvdwrite.de regards Eberhard ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:30:08 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Can you record DVDs on 7.2.1? Message-ID: <1vHAWN3rQC7l@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5bd7d4a4-6846-4b35-9765-8948b9db7d3d@25g2000prz.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: > Can you record DVDs or CDs using 7.2.1? If you have and use the correct software and hardware tools, I'm fairly sure you can do it. Did you want to record data CDs or music? Of course, by "7.2.1" in c.o.v I'm assuming you mean VMS 7.2-1 . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:33:21 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: Bob Koehler skrev: > In article , Johnny Billquist writes: >> No, the 11/23 don't have I/D space support. The 11/23+ atleast supports 4 megs >> of memory, but still without I/D space. >> Off my head, the processors supporting I/D space are: >> 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93 and >> 11/94. > > Of course, the siugnificant point is that unless the hardware has > some mechanism, the OS kernel can't do anything about executing stack > space. True. > The separation of I and D spaces on some PDP-11 models is possible only > because physical address space on those models (18 or 22 bit) was larger > than virtual address space (always 16 bit). This doesn't apply to a > whole lot of 32 bit or 64 bit architectures that tend to have a > maximum of 32 bits or 48 bits of physical address space. Well, that's not strictly true. The PDP-11 made it easier since you had a separate page table for I space and D space, so you obviously both had the possibility of mapping it differently, and also protecting it differently for execution and data references. That also lends itself to have execute only pages. Pages that you can't read to see what can be executed. But any machine could have a separate page table for I space compared to D space. Another approach would be to have different protection fields for instruction fetches and data reads. A separate page table is unlikely, and was pretty much a result of the limited address space, since it made the page table small. However, playing around a bit with the protection field of a page would not be that hard on any machine. But the fact that the physical address space is the same size as the virtual address space is totally irrelevant, in fact. There wouldn't be any problems setting up a separate I space and a separate D space which both covered the whole virtual address range. Not all of that memory could be mapped to physical memory at the same time, but that is no different than what we already have with paged virtual memory. > I'm sitting here on a 32 bit system with 31 bits of RAM space. > Separating I and D space won't help, since they'ed both map to within > 32 bits of each other. The hardware has no no-execute bit in page > protection. There's nothing the kernel can do about that. As you yourself realize, the missing bit is that the page protection don't have an execute bit. The size of the address spaces are irrelevant. I space and D space have the same addresses, but could (would) map to different physical addresses. Why do you see a problem with that? > Now sometimes I run SIMH. And I supposed I could modify SIMH to add > a no-execute bit. And then I could modify the VAX VMS kernel to use it. > But that's a pretty big patch. And I could give it 33 bits of > simulated physical address space, but separating I and D space would be a > major hack to VMS. You're confusing yourself with the address bits. :-) > I think I'd be better off writing an I64 emulator for SIMH. But I'm > not in the mood to do so. Now, that's another issue. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:18:57 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED5E7FE48@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:billg999@cs.uofs.edu] > Sent: August 28, 2008 9:04 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS > [snip] > > What's your point? That's Unix to Unix. Seems rather obvious to me > that they don't see Unix as "legacy", just Solaris 9. Solaris 9 came > out in May of 2002. I can understand wanting to replace it. > Their options, as they positioned them internally, were to upgrade to Solaris 10 UNIX or move to Linux. The "push" was to move to Linux as a means to replace their legacy Sun environment. [not my positioning - theirs.] > > > > And of course, there will be those in some companies that state Unix > is the > > way of the future and hence need to replace those one OS, one bus app > legac=3D > > y > > Wintel environments. > > I have never heard anyone refer to Wintel as "legacy". When people > talk > about replacing Wintel it is usually has nothing to do with age or > percieved > future of the product but more likely cost and/or ideology. > Very few differentiate in what context the term "legacy" is used. It is implied to be all of these - old, expensive, hard to support etc with very few facts to back this up. Business cases are loaded with OS religion and perceived views of the directions of the industry and invariably leave out real costs which might make their business case look less attractive. > > > > Its all in the eyes of the beholder or put another way, its all in > what OS > > preferences you like or are familiar with vs. what you would like the > futur=3D > > e > > to be. > > Keep telling yourself that. Unfortunately, it is what the IT industry > prefers and sees as the future. And we know what the rankings are for > that. > Yeah, and Gartner boldly predicted in 1990 that there would be no "legacy" Mainframes left by 1995. You keep on listening to the media "experts" - I am sure they are always correct. :-) > > > > Rather than be seen as hostile or have some OS religion against the > existin=3D > > g > > environment, you simply be polite and label the existing system as > "legacy" > > which is a polite way of saying you do not like the existing system > because > > you have other preferences. > > > > Sales people love the term "legacy" as it is a means to leverage new > sales. > > Just one tool for salesdroids. HP's lack of marketing of VMS does much > more to help salesdroids eliminate it than anything else. > > And for those who might still think there is so much hidden VMS use in > the > government, In connection with my association with DISA I brought up > the > question about wether or not there was a need/desire to test or update > the > OpenVMS Security Readiness Review Evaluation Script as the current one > on > the webpage is dated Jan 28, 2005. I was informed that there was no > need > to as the intent was to remove mention of it from the DISA Webpage. > Interpret > that however you wish. > > bill > This has been discussed here before. You say OpenVMS is not used in your area of the military and I say you do either not have a wide enough scope or those you are asking do not have any reason to respond to your questions= . Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 13:01:28 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <6hqa98FngtrnU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Johnny Billquist writes: > Bob Koehler skrev: >> In article , Johnny Billquist writes: >>> No, the 11/23 don't have I/D space support. The 11/23+ atleast supports 4 megs >>> of memory, but still without I/D space. >>> Off my head, the processors supporting I/D space are: >>> 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93 and >>> 11/94. >> >> Of course, the siugnificant point is that unless the hardware has >> some mechanism, the OS kernel can't do anything about executing stack >> space. > > True. > I cut most of this as it isn't relevant to what I have to say but just left enough to tie it all together. I expect someone like Johnny can answer this. I remember back in my Univac-1100 days it, too, had the equivalent of I&D space. But, because all the memory was basicly in a flat address space it was possible to write outside of "D" space using undetected out-of-bounds array subscripts (this caused numerous problems I had to troubleshoot in both COBOL and Fortran programs. Luckily there was noone actively trying to exploit this flaw in those days.) What does this have to do with the PDP-11? If the system basicly has 4Meg of memory, what is to stop me from accessing a block of memory in I space and writing malicious code there that I later force a branch to? Ift his is impossible, what is the mechanism of the CPU that would prevent it? Just trying to expand my knowledge of the PDP-11 even after all these years of using it. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:16:19 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: In article , Johnny Billquist writes: > As you yourself realize, the missing bit is that the page protection don't have > an execute bit. > The size of the address spaces are irrelevant. I space and D space have the same > addresses, but could (would) map to different physical addresses. Why do you see > a problem with that? > I'm thinking implementation. The PDP-11 didn't have an address map. It had what were essentiall base address registers, 18 or 22 bit addresses where the 16 bit address started. As long as I space and D space start more than 16 bits apart in physical address space then you can't access one from the other. If you separate I space and D space via separate address maps, then yes, you could make sure that they don't map to the same physical addresses. I haven't seen that implemented. It does require hardware support, but shouldn't be that difficult in concept since internally most modern processors are Harvard architecures. And in any case, both separating I space and D space or providing a no-execute bit addresses only one type of security flaw (as Hoff just reminded me). A flaw that could be addresses via good programming and proper choice of tools. The interest is that it's an all too common flaw. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:21:51 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: In article <6hqa98FngtrnU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > What does this have to do with the PDP-11? If the system basicly has > 4Meg of memory, what is to stop me from accessing a block of memory in > I space and writing malicious code there that I later force a branch to? > Ift his is impossible, what is the mechanism of the CPU that would > prevent it? 4MB of RAM is 22 bits of address space. Being a 16 bit system nothing a PDP-11 instruction can do will address outside of a 16 bit address space, only 64KB. The rest of RAM is reached via base address registers which the kernel controls. So if I space and D space are separated by more than 64K, you can't write to I space in user mode. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 15:27:33 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <6hqir5Fnmq7fU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <6hqa98FngtrnU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> What does this have to do with the PDP-11? If the system basicly has >> 4Meg of memory, what is to stop me from accessing a block of memory in >> I space and writing malicious code there that I later force a branch to? >> Ift his is impossible, what is the mechanism of the CPU that would >> prevent it? > > 4MB of RAM is 22 bits of address space. Being a 16 bit system > nothing a PDP-11 instruction can do will address outside of a 16 bit > address space, only 64KB. The rest of RAM is reached via base > address registers which the kernel controls. > > So if I space and D space are separated by more than 64K, you can't > write to I space in user mode. So, there is no way a user can fudge with the map registers outside of the OS using Macro or whatever? I never really looked, in depth, at how the map boards on things like my 11/24 and 11/44 worked. I remember seeing info in various places explaining how to program it. I was just curious if it was possible for a user to do that on a running system. Can I assume things like the VAX and Alpha are strictly flat address space with all memory visible? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:23:53 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > What does this have to do with the PDP-11? If the system basicly > has 4Meg of memory, what is to stop me from accessing a block of > memory in I space and writing malicious code there that I later > force a branch to? Ift his is impossible, what is the mechanism of > the CPU that would prevent it? You could use the RSX Program Logical Address Space (PLAS) directives to do this. Take some D-space memory, which could be allocated as .BLKW directives in your source code, or could be allocated from unused memory by a PLAS directive. If the latter, you could specify that it either disappear, or continue to exist after your task exits. Write your code into this D-space. Use a PLAS directive to create an I-space address window and map it to the memory you had previously written the code to, and then branch to it. Of course you could also just create a resident library ala LINK/SHARE in VMS. How malicious can it be? I think it is about the same as any other Trojan. Trick somebody with privileges into executing your code. Your code will execute with the privileges of the task/user that branches to it. Now that I have written all this, I reread your original question see you asked: > ... accessing a block of memory in I space ... Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here. Of the 4 Megabytes in a PDP-11, none of if is either I-space or D-space until it is mapped. The memory management hardware on a PDP-11 maps memory in 8KB pages, using 8 I-space Address Page Registers (APRs) and 8 D-space APRs. There are separate sets of APRs for kernel mode, supervisor mode, and user mode. When a user task runs, the user mode APRs are set up to point to the tasks physical memory. The task may modify its APRs using PLAS directives as allowed by the executive. So it is possible to map the same physical memory in both I-space and D-space simultaneously. Am I making sense? -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:32:44 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > So, there is no way a user can fudge with the map registers outside > of the OS using Macro or whatever? Outside of the OS? If your task is privileged, then it can muck with the mapping registers directly. If you don't clean up after yourself, you can crash the system. (Of course HALT in kernel mode will do that more easily if that is your goal.) > I was just curious if it was possible for a user to do that on a > running system. Privilege trumps all. Access to the I/O page is all you would need. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:34:23 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveG Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <52d8b2bd-0f07-4a2c-b30d-eaaca4f5ab10@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> While this trip down editor and I&D memory lane is interesting, and maybe I missed something, but what do these subjects have to do with the (almost) recent OpenVMS security findings? OK I'll duck now. Here come the slings and arrows. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 11:45:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: In article <6hqir5Fnmq7fU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > So, there is no way a user can fudge with the map registers outside of the > OS using Macro or whatever? I never really looked, in depth, at how the > map boards on things like my 11/24 and 11/44 worked. I remember seeing > info in various places explaining how to program it. I was just curious > if it was possible for a user to do that on a running system. IIRC, the registers are accessable only when the procesor is in kernel mode. That's a protection provided by the hardware, just like the privileged registers inside VAX CPUs. > Can I assume things like the VAX and Alpha are strictly flat address space > with all memory visible? VAX and Alpha have flat 32 bit or 64 bit virtual address spaces mapped to flat same size or smaller RAM addresses. The hardware checks the page accessability on every memory read or write. So a program is limitted to those physical addresses that are currently mapped to that process (you can't touch another process's private pages). And those pages that are mapped may be protected against access, which is checked by the hardware for every memory read and write. IIRC I64 also uses flat spaces, but I'm not sure, there may be holes in I64 spaces. For VMS (and most OS), all processes map all system space to the same physical addresses all the time, but user mode code can't write to kernel-only data structures. Code is generally stored on read-only pages, so the page fault mechanism reads them in then sets the protection to read-only before returning from the fault. You have to get to an inner mode to change the page protection, so user mode code can't generally be written to by user mode code. (You can intentionaly put your code on a writeable page if you want to, but that's not likely to be done by mistake.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:31:52 -0700 (PDT) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: Hobbyist rx2600 Message-ID: <7c541b33-1a7c-4323-be89-920cb315cd12@z11g2000prl.googlegroups.com> I just picked up an rx2600 from eBay (8 GB RAM, 2x900 MHz CPUs for a very reasonable 300 GBP IMHO) but it doesn't seem to come with HDD caddies. How expensive are these to procure and what's the best source for them (preferably in the UK)? Also, will the system (running VMS) accept SATA drives if I plug one of these SATA -> SCSI adapters into the drive? Finally, where can I get install media for this? I saw Montagar does the license but the media ordering page doesn't have an option for Integrity/Itanium? Sampsa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:50:19 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Message-ID: wrote: > I just picked up an rx2600 from eBay (8 GB RAM, 2x900 MHz CPUs for a > very reasonable 300 GBP IMHO) [...] > Finally, where can I get install media for this? I saw Montagar does > the license but the media ordering page doesn't have an option for > Integrity/Itanium? http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=150&thread_id=506 One more vote, I guess... cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://vms.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de Subject: Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Message-ID: On 29 Aug., 10:31, samp...@gmail.com wrote: > I just picked up an rx2600 from eBay (8 GB RAM, 2x900 MHz CPUs for a > very reasonable 300 GBP IMHO) but it doesn't seem to come with HDD > caddies. How expensive are these to procure and what's the best source > for them (preferably in the UK)? > > Also, will the system (running VMS) accept SATA drives if I plug one > of these SATA -> SCSI adapters into the drive? > > Finally, where can I get install media for this? I saw Montagar does > the license but the media ordering page doesn't have an option for > Integrity/Itanium? > > Sampsa You'll need to get SCSI-drives with SCA-connector. The caddies are avail. for 20 Euros (the HP TC3100 servers use the same caddy.). BTW. It is possible to exchange the CPUs with more powerful ones: 1.5 GHz 6MB cache is the maximum. Hope this helps Eberhard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:36:13 -0400 From: "David Turner" Subject: Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Message-ID: I think I have the right caddies for these Will let you know Tuesday wrote in message news:7c541b33-1a7c-4323-be89-920cb315cd12@z11g2000prl.googlegroups.com... >I just picked up an rx2600 from eBay (8 GB RAM, 2x900 MHz CPUs for a > very reasonable 300 GBP IMHO) but it doesn't seem to come with HDD > caddies. How expensive are these to procure and what's the best source > for them (preferably in the UK)? > > Also, will the system (running VMS) accept SATA drives if I plug one > of these SATA -> SCSI adapters into the drive? > > Finally, where can I get install media for this? I saw Montagar does > the license but the media ordering page doesn't have an option for > Integrity/Itanium? > > Sampsa > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: Re: Hobbyist rx2600 Message-ID: <47ebb880-034f-4911-a9ad-d74943327ff3@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 29, 3:28=A0pm, vax...@chemie.uni-konstanz.de wrote: > On 29 Aug., 10:31, samp...@gmail.com wrote: > > > I just picked up an rx2600 from eBay (8 GB RAM, 2x900 MHz CPUs for a > > very reasonable 300 GBP IMHO) but it doesn't seem to come with HDD > > caddies. How expensive are these to procure and what's the best source > > for them (preferably in the UK)? > > > You'll need to get SCSI-drives with SCA-connector. The caddies are > avail. > for 20 Euros (the HP TC3100 servers =A0use the same caddy.). Anybody have any experience buying hard drives from ebay? Something tells me it might be a Bad Idea (even with the potential upside of getting some UK gov ministry's data for 50 million people as an added bonus)? I bought a few Alphas with drives and haven't had any fail, I'm guessing the SCSI drives that come with this grade of system are a bit more high grade than your run-of-the-mill IDE / SATA disks, so am considering it as an option. Sampsa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:54:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: NFS setup with TCPIP services, what causes share to not mount? Message-ID: On Aug 28, 9:06=A0pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Rich Jordan wrote: > > /ds1/user/dave =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 * > > /ds3/files/ups =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = * > > Any thoughts? =A0 > > Start by enabling read-write for world on ds1:[000000]000000.dir as well > as ds1:[000000]user.dir > > See if it makes a difference. (then set it back to what it was before). > > Also, make sure that the protection of the mount point file on the > client system is setup properly. > > If I remember correctly, the NFS server on VMS doesn't honour ACLs. =A0No= t > 100% sure of it though. > > I was told that file protections are often the cause of NFS headaches, > and it was by fixing them that I got my setup between a mac and VMS worki= ng. No go. Tried various settings all the way up to G:RWED W:RWED, but the nfs server continues to fail to map the export, with the same error in the log. Also tried redoing the map and the export in uppercase, matching the actual directory names. Also tried mapping several other shared directories on DSA1, using both all lowercase and 'exactly as shown' for export, with protections back up to the root directory of W:RWE, no go, same error. So nothing I've tried is able to get anything on drive DSA1 to map or generate a more useful error. Rich ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:31:05 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: SYSMAN Equiv. on AIX? Message-ID: In article <48B75DF4.BF508E56@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > "Steven M. Schweda" wrote: >> >> From: David J Dachtera >> >> > Is anyone aware of a SYSMAN-like utility for AIX? I need to be able to >> > execute the same command on multiple LPARs, HACMP not withstanding. >> >> Don't know aboit the multiple hosts part, but SMIT was the handy tool >> for system management when I was young. (Sure miss the SMIT dude >> falling on his face when a command failed.) > > Well, SMIT(TY) is whole different critter from SYSMAN. SMIT(TY) is a > screen-oriented interface to various system management task, but AFAIK > does not provide for operations within a group of nodes or a cluster. > SMITTY is the character-cell version. SMIT is the X version, but > defaults to SMITTY if X is not setup in the process environment or > otherwise not available. > >> There is an AIX forum somewhere at ibm.com. Search the ITRC HP-UX >> forum for AIX. > > There's comp.unix.aix, also. Fairly active, low S/N ratio. > >> > Any ideas anyone has would be useful. >> >> Optimistic or just confused? > > Desperate is more like it... > > D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:34:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: SYSMAN Equiv. on AIX? Message-ID: From: David J Dachtera > Is anyone aware of a SYSMAN-like utility for AIX? I need to be able to > execute the same command on multiple LPARs, HACMP not withstanding. Someone with a similar problem on HP-UX used rsync. I think they had cron jobs to look for scripts. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 05:07:53 -0500 From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Message-ID: Hoff is reporting at http://64.223.189.234/node/1021 that a remote access exploit against VMS has been discovered and verified. Just giving people a heads-up as I haven't seen it reported here yet. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 13:14:36 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Message-ID: <6hqb1sFngtrnU3@mid.individual.net> In article , clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > Hoff is reporting at > > http://64.223.189.234/node/1021 > > that a remote access exploit against VMS has been discovered and verified. > > Just giving people a heads-up as I haven't seen it reported here yet. > I see the vulnerability was reported to HP. Was it reported to CERT? Or are we going to continue the myth that VMS has no CERT Vulnerabilities to keep Bob happy? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:36:30 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Message-ID: In article <6hqb1sFngtrnU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > I see the vulnerability was reported to HP. Was it reported to CERT? > Or are we going to continue the myth that VMS has no CERT Vulnerabilities > to keep Bob happy? I don't know about the other Bob, but I'll take half a dozen CERT notices over the last 3 decades against patch-of-the-day. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:53:27 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveG Subject: Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Message-ID: <0f44c4c3-497f-4d45-9c56-852fb337d3b1@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Aug 29, 9:36=A0am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <6hqb1sFngtr...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bil= l Gunshannon) writes: > > > I see the vulnerability was reported to HP. =A0Was it reported to CERT? > > Or are we going to continue the myth that VMS has no CERT Vulnerabiliti= es > > to keep Bob happy? > > =A0 =A0I don't know about the other Bob, but I'll take half a dozen CERT > =A0 =A0notices over the last 3 decades against patch-of-the-day. While I agree with this Bob, I've heard others say that CERT is equivalent to kissing your sister these days. Its kinda lost its luster. Can't say first hand, so I guess I'm spreading a rumor or opinions of others. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 15:34:22 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Remote access vulnerability in VMS Message-ID: <6hqj7uFnhposU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <6hqb1sFngtrnU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> I see the vulnerability was reported to HP. Was it reported to CERT? >> Or are we going to continue the myth that VMS has no CERT Vulnerabilities >> to keep Bob happy? > > I don't know about the other Bob, but I'll take half a dozen CERT > notices over the last 3 decades against patch-of-the-day. Except that if nothing ever gets reported you really have no idea how many there might have been. I notice none of the DEFCON problems were reported to CERT either. Or has CERT told people they are not collecting VMS Vulnerabilities? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:49:42 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: rx2600s on eBay Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > Well, I'd better ask the seller about "overseas" > shipping. Got an reply: > Thank you for your inquiry. > > I am sorry we do not ship to your location. > > Best regards, Well, then I know, at least... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:10:01 -0400 From: "David" Subject: Re: rx2600s on eBay Message-ID: It does not come with rackmounting kit unless you buy 8 in a rack Then we would just pull them out. We are going to order 40-50 in racks once we negotiate a decent deal (where we can actually make a profit somewhere) Len @ PSDS may be doing the same thing... is that what you're doing Lenny? -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= wrote in message news:00A7ECE9.63013B57@SendSpamHere.ORG... > In article > <41985b3a-4ee5-451a-aa4c-85a555672871@1g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Len > Whitwer writes: >>On Aug 28, 12:19=A0pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> In article , Malcolm Dunnett >>> >spammers.are.scum> writes: >>> >David wrote: >>> >> What happens when it dies after 45 days? Just chuck it away and get >>> >> an= >>other >>> >> one? >>> >>> > =A0 Sure, why not. At that price you could buy several spare boxes for >>> >the price of a system with a warranty. :-). Or one could put them on >>> >maintenance with HP if that is a concern. >>> >>> Like the one I got via the Intel 3 day porting seminar? =A0It's become a >>> parts carcass for the one that is still lumbering along. >>> >>> -- >>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 >>> =A0VAXman(at)TME= >>SIS(dot)COM >>> >>> ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional >>> prote= >>ction >>> no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. >>> (= >>NJSC) >>> >>> Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet article >>> = >>outside >>> of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this >>> copy= >>right >>> notice, disclaimer and quotations. >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------= >>----------------------------------- >> >>rx 2600's for sale!!!!!!! Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc >> >>We have just bought 25 of these units and will be offering them to >>anyone who wants one. We will be testing them as soon as they >>arrive (About 1 week) and they will be available for sale. We will >>be putting a one year warranty on them to protect the buyer. Pricing >>will depend on the final configuration desired. >> >>We can pre-load VMS, Linux or HP-UX as per buyers request. Or >>the machine can be bought with no software. (Contact us on how >>to get the licenses for free) >> >>Please call or e-mail me if you have any questions. >> >>Len Whitwer > > What about rack mounting kit? :roll: > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional > protection > no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. > (NJSC) > > Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article > outside > of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this > copyright > notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:12:02 -0400 From: "David" Subject: Re: rx2600s on eBay Message-ID: The system requires a certain brand of DVD/CDRW to work correctly We went through 3 or 4 before we found one that worked correctly. You'll need a laptop cd/dvd - the mounting plate is preinstalled. What was Hp thinking; not installing a bloody CDROM! Anything to save $60 ! -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= "Steven M. Schweda" wrote in message news:08082816504800_20202925@antinode.info... > From: Len Whitwer > >> We have just bought 25 of these units and will be offering them to >> anyone who wants one. [...] > > Sounds good. I can go pick one up, avoiding the shipping, if you > want to arrange that. > >> [...] and they will be available for sale. [...] > > Oh. You want _money_. Never mind. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 10:58:50 -0500 From: cornelius@eisner.decus.org (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: rx2600s on eBay Message-ID: In article , "David" writes: > The system requires a certain brand of DVD/CDRW to work correctly > We went through 3 or 4 before we found one that worked correctly. > You'll need a laptop cd/dvd - the mounting plate is preinstalled. > What was Hp thinking; not installing a bloody CDROM! > Anything to save $60 ! Will an RRD45 work? I realize I might need a SCSI card if there's not on-board SCSI. -- George Cornelius cornelius A T eisner D O T decus D O T org cornelius A T mayo D O T edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:11:57 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: rx2600s on eBay Message-ID: David Turner wrote: > Hang on a second... > I am not bad mouthing them. > I talked to them this morning because I am interested myself. > I was just curious of the mentality of people that buy things like this on > Ebay. What do you mean by "the mentality of the people..."? I suppose my "mentality" is that it is my job to provide the necessary computing services with the least impact on the corporate bottom line. Whether I do that by purchasing via eBay, IslandCo or directly from HP is irrelevant - each approach has its own strengths and weaknesses. Please don't take offense, but your comment is somewhat reminiscent of the FUD that I used to get from DEC salesmen over the idea of buying third-party enhancements for VAXen (or indeed for considering used equipment from any source other than the official "DEC refurbished" channel). > Some companies allow their IT people to buy on Ebay and many don't. Many IT > pros have to justify their purchases. > I don't find that hard to do. I've often purchased new or near-new HP gear on eBay for pennies on the dollar compared to the list price. Most beancounters have no problem seeing the value in that approach. Sure it doesn't come with a warranty, but, as anyone who's taken an elementary stats class knows, a warranty is only a statistical evaluation of claim rates combined with a price boost sufficient to cover the estimated warranty repair costs (+ a profit margin on the warranty itself). Just because I buy a system with a warranty there's no reason to expect that system will be less likely to fail over the coming year. Granted if it does fail I have a "no cost" way to get it working again, but the warranty doesn't cover any of the lost productivity I will experience while the system is being repaired/replaced. Alternatives to a warranty are to put the hardware on an HP maintenance agreement (expensive but with a guaranteed quick MTTR) or to purchase extra parts or entire systems as spares. The benefit of the latter route is that one can configure hot spares and have the potential for very short downtimes or one can use the spares as test-bench systems. Speaking from personal experience I can say that I've never been burned on any HP/Compaq/Digital gear I've purchased on eBay. I once bought an rx2600 "as-is" for a really low price which turned out to have a dead motherboard in it, but it was still worth it for the other parts I could salvage. Many eBay vendors will offer a 30-day warranty on the stuff they sell or at least a "non-DOA" warranty. If you do your homework - read the listing carefully, read the comments in the seller's feedback and realize that sometimes a deal really is "too good to be true" - there's no reason an IT professional shouldn't buy on eBay. ps eBay has recently taken the long-overdue step of not allowing sellers to leave negative feedback for buyers. Previously buyers were often punished for leaving honest, but negative feedback, for a seller because the seller would retaliate by bad-mouthing the buyer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:29:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: rx2600s on eBay Message-ID: <94229a80-bf91-45b6-8cb2-43007f144e41@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 29, 10:58=A0am, cornel...@eisner.decus.org (George Cornelius) wrote: > In article , "David" writes: > > The system requires a certain brand of DVD/CDRW to work correctly > > We went through 3 or 4 before we found one that worked correctly. > > You'll need a laptop cd/dvd - the mounting plate is preinstalled. > > What was Hp thinking; not installing a bloody CDROM! > > Anything to save $60 ! > > Will an RRD45 work? =A0I realize I might need a SCSI card if there's > not on-board SCSI. > > -- > George Cornelius =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0cornelius A T eisner D O T de= cus D O T org > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cornelius A T= =A0 mayo D O T edu The thing is most itanium kit comes on DVDs, not CDs (at least in the OpenVMS side of things). A CDROM drive won't be sufficient. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:12:24 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: In my hobbyist cluster I have 2 VAXes and 1 ALPHA as full-time members. A big ALPHAserver 1200 boots as a satellite when I need the computing power to run CSWB. The VAXes are definitely 10 Mb/s, the 1200 can do 100 I believe and I am not sure about the DEC 3000/600 (the older ALPHA). Occasionally other VMS machines are connected up for test purposes, and on the same LAN there is a PC which boots quickly which I occasionally use (dons flame-proof suit) when I need really quick internet access with a modern browser (as the 1200 takes a while to boot). Now, everything goes through a 10 Mb/s hub. How much better would performance be with a 10/100 switch instead? In particular, I am thinking of quickly loading complicated web pages and full shadow copies (when they unfortunately have to be done). The shadow sets consist of disks directly connected to the same node for system disks and to two different nodes for other disks. In particular, the biggest one, at 9 GB, is connected to the 2 VAXes. The DSL connection to the internet is 16 Mb/s coming in and 2048 kb/s going out. A 16-port 10/100 switch costs about EUR 80. Will I see an improvement in performance worth my money? Note: there is no connection between the nodes other than the LAN. There are also no dual-ported disks; each physical disk has a direct connection to only one node. All disks are mounted on all nodes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:08:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bart.Zorn@gmail.com" Subject: Re: switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: <7a547be2-8437-42ba-955e-9377f0e224d4@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 29, 12:12=A0pm, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In my hobbyist cluster I have 2 VAXes and 1 ALPHA as full-time members. > A big ALPHAserver 1200 boots as a satellite when I need the computing > power to run CSWB. =A0The VAXes are definitely 10 Mb/s, the 1200 can do > 100 I believe and I am not sure about the DEC 3000/600 (the older > ALPHA). Is it worthwhile to keep the 3000/600 when you have a 1200? I can imagine that it consumes more power than the 1200, but I am not sure. I do not think that the 3000/600 does 100 Mb/s, so the speed of the 1200 does not really matter. That said, you may still gain something from a switch over the hub, especially when you are doing shadow copy/merge actions. Also note that the 1200 is the only one that could potentially use the full speed of your DSL connection, but only if you have a switch. > =A0Occasionally other VMS machines are connected up for test > purposes, and on the same LAN there is a PC which boots quickly which I > occasionally use (dons flame-proof suit) when I need really quick > internet access with a modern browser (as the 1200 takes a while to > boot). > > Now, everything goes through a 10 Mb/s hub. =A0How much better would > performance be with a 10/100 switch instead? =A0In particular, I am > thinking of quickly loading complicated web pages and full shadow copies > (when they unfortunately have to be done). =A0The shadow sets consist of > disks directly connected to the same node for system disks and to two > different nodes for other disks. =A0In particular, the biggest one, at 9 > GB, is connected to the 2 VAXes. =A0The DSL connection to the internet is > 16 Mb/s coming in and 2048 kb/s going out. > > A 16-port 10/100 switch costs about EUR 80. =A0Will I see an improvement > in performance worth my money? > > Note: there is no connection between the nodes other than the LAN. =A0 > There are also no dual-ported disks; each physical disk has a direct > connection to only one node. =A0All disks are mounted on all nodes. HTH, Bart Zorn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:08:04 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In my hobbyist cluster I have 2 VAXes and 1 ALPHA as full-time members. > A big ALPHAserver 1200 boots as a satellite when I need the computing > power to run CSWB. The VAXes are definitely 10 Mb/s, the 1200 can do > 100 I believe and I am not sure about the DEC 3000/600 (the older > ALPHA). Occasionally other VMS machines are connected up for test > purposes, and on the same LAN there is a PC which boots quickly which I > occasionally use (dons flame-proof suit) when I need really quick > internet access with a modern browser (as the 1200 takes a while to > boot). > > Now, everything goes through a 10 Mb/s hub. How much better would > performance be with a 10/100 switch instead? In particular, I am > thinking of quickly loading complicated web pages and full shadow copies > (when they unfortunately have to be done). The shadow sets consist of > disks directly connected to the same node for system disks and to two > different nodes for other disks. In particular, the biggest one, at 9 > GB, is connected to the 2 VAXes. The DSL connection to the internet is > 16 Mb/s coming in and 2048 kb/s going out. It depends! (God I love to be helpful!) A hub handles exactly one connection at a time. Each port sees all the traffic. A four port switch can handle two connections simultaneously if the connections are independent! So if you have only one system talking at once there will be no difference. If A talks to B and C talks to D then the two conversations can be simultaneous provided that the switch backplane has the necessary bandwidth. Switches sold for commercial use tend to have more backplane bandwidth. Products sold for home use can not be expected to offer the sort of performance that you would expect from a Cisco Systems product. OTOH, home networks don't usually carry the sort of load that needs an XX thousand dollar Cisco Switch! > > A 16-port 10/100 switch costs about EUR 80. Will I see an improvement > in performance worth my money? > > Note: there is no connection between the nodes other than the LAN. > There are also no dual-ported disks; each physical disk has a direct > connection to only one node. All disks are mounted on all nodes. > ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:41:02 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: switch vs. hub for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In my hobbyist cluster I have 2 VAXes and 1 ALPHA as full-time members. > A big ALPHAserver 1200 boots as a satellite when I need the computing > power to run CSWB. The VAXes are definitely 10 Mb/s, the 1200 can do > 100 I believe and I am not sure about the DEC 3000/600 (the older > ALPHA). Occasionally other VMS machines are connected up for test > purposes, and on the same LAN there is a PC which boots quickly which I > occasionally use (dons flame-proof suit) when I need really quick > internet access with a modern browser (as the 1200 takes a while to > boot). I'm failry sure you 3000 600 has a 10Mb/s NIC. So only you're PC and 1200 could take advantage of the 100Mb/s switch. Switching over dumb hub helps, but you cluster traffic and some of the other protocols you're using is broadcast, so you won't see much improvement going from 10Mb/s hub toi switch. I have a 10/100 switch because it was cheap, it was my first, and my Macs could all do 100. Now my DS10L does 100. But broadcast makes all the lights blink. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 13:06:08 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: <6hqahvFngtrnU2@mid.individual.net> In article , John Sauter writes: > Rob Brown wrote: >> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, AEF wrote: >> >>> BTW, what is the origin of the name EDT? Is it a super-secret acronym, >>> or just an abbreviation of EDIT? >> >> EDI was already taken? >> >> If EDT on RSX came before or was concurrent with EDT on VMS then that >> is a plausible explanation. >> >> In RSX, specially installed tasks with > long> became "commands" so you did not have to preface the line with RUN >> (longer explanation available). There was already an editor called EDI. >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> > EDT was written in the early 1980s, targeted at both RSX-11M and > VAX/VMS. Your explanation of the name is plausable, but I don't have > any independent confirmation of it. > > I was the project leader for EDT version 3. > John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) There was EDT for both RSTS and RT-11 (as well as KED which claimed to be "a striped down version of EDT"). Did these actually come after the RSX and/or VMS versions? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:26:51 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: In article , Rob Brown writes: > On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, AEF wrote: > >> BTW, what is the origin of the name EDT? Is it a super-secret >> acronym, or just an abbreviation of EDIT? > > EDI was already taken? > > If EDT on RSX came before or was concurrent with EDT on VMS then that > is a plausible explanation. EDT on RSX came after EDT on VMS, and EDT on TOPS-20 came after that. But VMS had an EDIT command on day 1, who's default has gone from /SOS to /EDT to /TPU. SOS was a compatability mode program which was essentially the same as SOS on RSX and TOPS-10 (where it was called EDIT). It took me quite a while to convince some SOS users that they should try EDT and when they did not only did they never look back, but the load on my 11/780 went way down. For some reason SOS was a CPU hog and my 11/780 was running in compatability mode when they were editting more than it was running in any other mode. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 09:28:17 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: In article <6hqahvFngtrnU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > There was EDT for both RSTS and RT-11 (as well as KED which claimed to be > "a striped down version of EDT"). Did these actually come after the RSX > and/or VMS versions? People who knew RSX better than me claimed KED has been aroung a long time. I tried it and got the impression that it was a predecessor to EDT. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:40:01 -0400 From: John Sauter Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > > EDT on RSX came after EDT on VMS, and EDT on TOPS-20 came after that. > > But VMS had an EDIT command on day 1, who's default has gone from > /SOS to /EDT to /TPU. > > SOS was a compatability mode program which was essentially the same > as SOS on RSX and TOPS-10 (where it was called EDIT). It took me > quite a while to convince some SOS users that they should try EDT > and when they did not only did they never look back, but the load > on my 11/780 went way down. For some reason SOS was a CPU hog and > my 11/780 was running in compatability mode when they were editting > more than it was running in any other mode. > SOS stood for "Son of Stopgap". Stopgap was a text editor written at the Stanford AI project. The name came from the author's unhappiness at being unable to insert a block in the middle of a file. Hence, "Stopgap editor -- works by recopying". Stopgap and SOS were originally written for the PDP-6 and PDP-10. I don't know who did the PDP-11 port. John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:42:12 -0400 From: John Sauter Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > There was EDT for both RSTS and RT-11 (as well as KED which claimed to be > "a striped down version of EDT"). Did these actually come after the RSX > and/or VMS versions? > > bill > I didn't know about the RT-11 version. I imagine it was based on the same Bliss sources that were used initially for RSX-11M, RSTS/E and VAX/VMS, and which were later used to port the program to TOPS-20. John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:45:26 -0400 From: John Sauter Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <6hqahvFngtrnU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> There was EDT for both RSTS and RT-11 (as well as KED which claimed to be >> "a striped down version of EDT"). Did these actually come after the RSX >> and/or VMS versions? > > People who knew RSX better than me claimed KED has been aroung a long > time. I tried it and got the impression that it was a predecessor > to EDT. > EDT version 1 was a line-mode editor, like SOS. Version 2 added screen mode, to be like KED, which was indeed a predecessor (and an inspiration). John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:55:15 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Bob Koehler wrote: > SOS was a compatability mode program which was essentially the same > as SOS on RSX and TOPS-10 (where it was called EDIT). I don't ever remember an editor called SOS on RSX, which I have been using since V3 (or maybe 2.x) in 1978. There is certainly no SOS in the RSX doc set now. Could SOS be another name for the EDI editor on RSX? Since I haven't used EDI in about 25 years, I refer the the RSX documentation. EDI is a line editor, which loads "blocks" of text. You can move up and down within a block, but once you got the next block, you could not go back to the previous block. It has an input mode and a command mode. When in input mode, you just type. When in command mode, you have the asterisk prompt, to which you type the usual cryptic commands: A to append to a line C to substitute strings D to delete lines L to search for a string And it gets worse from there. Sound familiar? No, you could not get me to go back to EDI either. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 2008 11:50:49 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: In article , Rob Brown writes: > > Could SOS be another name for the EDI editor on RSX? > I'm not sure what it was called on RSX, and I don't recall the interface. I never used it there. But the SOS on VMS was an RSX compatability mode image, so somebody pretty much had to have had it there. I wonder how much of VMS was written using which editor on what OS prior to the availability of editors on the first 11/780? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:39:16 -0600 From: Dan O'Reilly Subject: Re: Why is EDT? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080829113822.01d8a0e8@raptor.psccos.com> There was also "KEDT" that ran under Time-Shared DIBOL under RT-11. It was a bit flaky (if it had an error, it crashed the TSD runtime system), but it did run OK. At 09:42 AM 8/29/2008, John Sauter wrote: >Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>There was EDT for both RSTS and RT-11 (as well as KED which claimed to be >>"a striped down version of EDT"). Did these actually come after the RSX >>and/or VMS versions? >>bill > >I didn't know about the RT-11 version. I imagine it was based on the >same Bliss sources that were used initially for RSX-11M, RSTS/E and >VAX/VMS, and which were later used to port the program to TOPS-20. > John Sauter (John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com) ------ +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ | Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this | | Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary | | Process Software | and those who don't." | | http://www.process.com | | +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:35:59 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: [RBL] Current status? Message-ID: In article <48b43770@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > What is the current status of RBLs? > Which one do you use? I've been using Spamhaus as my only RBL for a while now. Seems to work fine. I get a few thousand SMTP connection attempts per day. Perhaps 5 spam emails per day get through. Although something like this is difficult to detect, I don't think false positives are a problem. I have Client-In-RBL-Text: set in SMTP.CONFIG which gives basic information and mentions a URL for more information. Any legitimate user getting (wrongly?) rejected by the RBL should then know what is going on. (Even if the user is legitimate, if he is, say, sending directly from a volatile IP address (which would be OK if there was no problem with spam), I think it is better to reject him and let him get the information since he is probably being blocked by other people without realising it.) ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.473 ************************