INFO-VAX Wed, 04 Jun 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 310 Contents: Re: CVS on VMS Re: CVS on VMS Re: Failsafe-IP Re: Has anyone done REPLICATION using HSG80's and OVMS?? Re: How to read a damaged TK50 tape Re: How to read a damaged TK50 tape Re: How to read a damaged TK50 tape Re: Instructions setting up reverse LAT port on RSX11 Re: Instructions setting up reverse LAT port on RSX11 Re: Itanium kernel alignment faults Re: Need an external CD/DVD writer for DS10. New Zip "BETA" source kit: version 3.0h Re: OT of OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise - Metered i Re: OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise Re: OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise Re: OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:03:18 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: CVS on VMS Message-ID: <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >> Bob Koehler wrote: >>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer. >>>> >>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not >>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them >>> already sitting somewhere for free. >> Sure. >> >> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is >> what I was talking about. > > Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS. I have never seen a web frontend for CMS. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:04:46 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: CVS on VMS Message-ID: <4845f836$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> IanMiller wrote: > On 3 Jun, 01:17, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Bob Koehler wrote: >>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726...@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer. >>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not >>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them >>> already sitting somewhere for free. >> Sure. >> >> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is >> what I was talking about. > > Would a web front end for CMS be more popular than the windows client > for CMS? I don't know if more. But most modern source control systems do come with web interfaces, so there must be some demand. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:51:07 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Failsafe-IP Message-ID: <4845bdf7$0$7290$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > This was BAD, BAD, BAD and I honestly hope someone was fired for it. > Usually, when something "better" comes along, the old syntax is > supported for AT LEAST one major release. In fairness ( I can be a very good devil's advocate). The new syntax (using ifconfig alias command) does provide for a real means to turn off the alias on a node to force the failover (ifconfig -alias forces it to move to another node, and you then re-issue the original ifconfig alias command to "queue" this node to get control should the other nodes fail. There was no documented way to achieve this with the TCPIP interface in previous versions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:19:33 -0700 (PDT) From: LenW Subject: Re: Has anyone done REPLICATION using HSG80's and OVMS?? Message-ID: <97da14df-ea1c-437c-b72d-81a0873fe759@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On Jun 3, 4:10=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > LenW wrote: > > On Jun 2, 11:49 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > wrote: > >> LenW wrote: > >>> Want to set up a DR config (Local and Remote) using RA8000's and > >>> replication between the two sites. OVMS ver 7.3 running on DS20e's. > >>> (Poor man's DR) > >>> Any input would be greatly appreciated. > >>> Thanks, > >>> Len > >> Have you tested your ability to "fail over"? =A0If your primary site ge= ts > >> nuked, you need to be certain that your DR site will pick up the load, > >> or at least any critical portions of the load. > > >> After you have failed over to your DR site, can you sync up your primar= y > >> site and switch back? > > >> Are your sites far enough apart that both will not be affected by a > >> common disaster? =A0If the same hurricane can wipe out both sites, you > >> have not accomplished much!! > > > Hi Richard: > > > I am not at that point yet. I'm still trying to find someone that has > > set > > up this type of config. Have you done it?? > > > Thanks, > > > Len > > My employers never got beyond the talking stage! =A0They had me write what= > I thought was a pretty good DR plan. =A0They didn't want to spend any > money on the possibility that they might actually have to implement it > some day. =A0That was five or six years ago. =A0AFAIK, they have been luck= y > but God help them if they have a real disaster! > > They had a contract with SunGuard to recover the order entry system but, > AFAIK, no place for the call center to work. . . .- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Thanks Richard for you input. LenW ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 00:02:37 +0100 From: "Robert Jarratt" Subject: Re: How to read a damaged TK50 tape Message-ID: <84k1k.55130$xJ7.29374@newsfe08.ams2> "IanMiller" wrote in message news:7c356030-6781-4aa9-b003-a54f3824b164@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... > On 3 Jun, 14:57, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > wrote: >> In article , "Robert Jarratt" >> writes: >> >> > I have also tried messing around with SET MAGTAPE/SKIP:FILES:n but it >> > seems >> > unable to skip past the bad saveset, presumably because the TK50 will >> > not go >> > past the parity error as mentioned elsewhere on this thread. (I have a >> > TK50 >> > and a TZ87, I also have a TK70 but no Q-Bus machine to put it in). >> >> This inability to continue past certain errors is built into the TK50 >> firmware and the only way you're likely to get around it is to >> contact a data recovery service that has drives with modified >> firmware. >> >> Someone else did mention that some drives are better at getting past >> these errors. If you have one of those, it is certainly worth a try. > > > Seek thou for a non-SCSI DLT drive such as a TF85. They will proceed > past errors that TZ drives stop at. Unfortunately I don't have a DSSI system to put one into :-( ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:07:50 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: How to read a damaged TK50 tape Message-ID: <8660a3a10806031907k9afe472lddf230149b74842f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <5300d$4843a430$817d1b38$7348@news1.tudelft.nl>, "Fred Zwarts" writes: > >> I never understood why such tape drives were designed by DEC >> when they had such a good backup design. > > I don't think DEC designed those drives, I think they resold them. > > If you're talking about DLTs- Quantum. WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:12:43 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: How to read a damaged TK50 tape Message-ID: <4845FA1B.E8F36154@spam.comcast.net> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I am attempting to read a tape that may be physically damaged in a few > places. It contains a backup saveset and I get some parity errors when > trying to read it. I would like to recover what I can. What is the best way > to do this with VMS? To the best of my knowledge, part of the DLT spec., being a serpentine technology, is that once the drive encounters an issue which causes it to lose its place, the tape - from that point on - is considered unusable / inaccessible. I know - that doesn't help... D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:50:35 -0400 From: JCamCMKRNL Subject: Re: Instructions setting up reverse LAT port on RSX11 Message-ID: Well, I am still having problems with Reverse LAT on my RSX system. My commands are: > LCP CREATE /TERMINALS=24 /RESERVED=121,122 > LCP SET PORT TT121: /SERVER=ARIEL /PORT=PORT_7 > LCP SET PORT TT122: /SERVER=ARIEL /PORT=PORT_8 The first command returns an error indicating an "invalid value(s)", but it does sucessfully create terminal ports TT111: through TT130:. (Remember RSX port numbers are octal). I also tried: > LCP CREATE /TERMINALS=24 /RESERVED=TT121:,TT122: Which returned a "Syntax Error" The Help for te LCP create says: Use the CREATE command to create LAT terminals. Restrictions: CREATE is a privileged command. The communication executive must be loaded before you can use CREATE. Format Description CREATE Creates the number of terminals that is defined in the permanent database. (The number of terminals is defined using the DEFINE /TERMINALS command.) CREATE /TERMINALS=n Creates n terminals where n is a number in the range 1-64. This command overrides the number of terminals that is defined in the permanent database. CREATE /RESERVED=x,y,z Reserves ports number x, y, and z for use as application terminals only. Could it be that the \"x,y,z\" represents values from 1 to 24 since I created 24 ports? Unfortunately, every time I test, I have to reboot the system. -- JCamCMKRNL ------------------------------------------------------------------------ JCamCMKRNL's Profile: http://techiegroups.com/member.php?userid=12735 View this thread: http://www.techiegroups.com/showthread.php?t=149838 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:53:27 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: Instructions setting up reverse LAT port on RSX11 Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, JCamCMKRNL wrote: > Well, I am still having problems with Reverse LAT on my RSX system. I think you are nearly there. > My commands are: > >> LCP CREATE /TERMINALS=24 /RESERVED=121,122 >> LCP SET PORT TT121: /SERVER=ARIEL /PORT=PORT_7 >> LCP SET PORT TT122: /SERVER=ARIEL /PORT=PORT_8 > Could it be that the \"x,y,z\" represents values from 1 to 24 since > I created 24 ports? Yes. The 24 LAT ports are created consecutively after all of the ports defined in SYSGEN. If you have DLs and MUXes up to TT20:, then your 24 ports will be TT21: to TT50: I have never bothered with the /RESERVED qualifier, once the SET PORT is done, the ports cannot be used by an incoming connection anyway. Don't have any time to fool around today, but I may be able to test some things for you tomorrow. hth - Rob -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:29:55 +0300 From: "Guy Peleg" Subject: Re: Itanium kernel alignment faults Message-ID: "Bill Law" wrote in message news:8528cb9d-c37d-4832-b40d-c47fa7c6f6a6@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > Greetings, > > How can we fix kernel mode alignment faults caused by user mode code > passing unaligned arguments to system services? Actually, I know how > to fix them, I just don't know how to locate and identify them. > According to Guy Peleg's OpenVMS Technical Journal article on > alignment faults there are 3 tools for detecting alignment faults: > MONITOR ALIGN, SDA FLT, and debugger SET BREAK/UNALIGN. Those are > indeed wonderful tools and they have made it straight forward to > identify and deal with user mode alignment faults. > > Having done that successfully we are now left with lots (tens of > thousands per second) of kernel mode alignment faults according to > MONITOR ALIGN. And SDA FLT shows they are coming from our application > and are located in system address space. But the debugger SET BREAK/ > UNALIGN never breaks; apparently it only works on user mode faults. I > tried using SET BREAK/UNALIGN/SYSTEM but that was no help. Once a > line of code is identified as calling a system service which in turn > suffers an alignment fault then we are confident it can be > successfully dealt with. How can we identify where in user mode code, > i.e. a traceback, is producing a kernel alignment fault? > FLT START TRACE/CALLER is what you are looking for. Will show you the location where alignment fault happened - say SYS$GETDVI and the call chain that lead you in there. > Any help or pointers greatly appreciated. > Cheers, Bill :-) ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:35:05 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Need an external CD/DVD writer for DS10. Message-ID: <08060314350571_2020CE0A@antinode.info> From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > In article <8b386066-cc79-4d0e-a0da-1e247a8faf92@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: > >We have a DS10 running 7.2.1. Any suggestions for a compatible CD/ > >DVD writer? > > > >Need an external one with an SCSI connector. > Find out what HP is shipping with their Itanium servers. These *may* also > function on the Alpha with the ATAPI/SCSI converter. Someone recently recommended some kit for an HP-UX user, including a Q1592B, which seems to be a real SCSI DVD-writer. (Funny device names ("=" in a device name?) for USB devices on HP-UX apparently defeated some software there.) http://forums.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1237083 A quick Web search suggested that this drive sells for about $600, which is (much) more than I pay for whole computers. Of course, while it might be cheaper to buy an XP1000 and put a $40 IDE DVD drive into it, it'd probably also be much slower than a real SCSI solution. Is anyone using a USB-connected DVD drive on VMS (Alpha)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 00:02:03 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: New Zip "BETA" source kit: version 3.0h Message-ID: <08060400020377_202548E3@antinode.info> A new Zip public "BETA" source kit, version 3.0h, should now be available in the usual places: ftp://ftp.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/beta/ http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=118012 Other than some minor pending documentation changes, this should be essentially similar to the long-awaited actual Zip 3.0 release, which could appear pretty soon. It would be best to find any remaining serious, ghastly, or fatal problems quickly, so test it if you dare, and complain promptly if you care. UnZip 6.0 is lagging Zip 3.0, but another public "BETA" source kit for it (version 6.00e) should appear fairly soon. (If the currently available 6.00d kit lets you down, let me know and I'll see if I can pry loose a pre-pre-release internal 6.00eXX kit.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:30:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: OT of OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise - Metered i Message-ID: On Jun 3, 3:13 pm, johnwalla...@gmail.com wrote: > Anyway, over this time I have learnt that big bandwidth costs big > money, and that any UK ISP who says that they offer an "unlimited" > tariff at an interesting price is likely to be just lying (or out of > business in a few months). But there are people out there who think > that an "always on" internet connection means they can be "always > downloading". These "always downloading" folks are a tiny proportion > of the market, but they can use a huge proportion of the ISP's > bandwidth (I don't think there's any dispute about that). And > bandwidth costs money. And typically these "always downloading" folks > are P2P users (or downloading from newsgroup binaries, which is > another easily-identified set of bulk traffic). > > So the choice (at least in the UK) is between expensive ISPs (flat > rate or PAYG) relying on massive overprovisioning without active > traffic management, with tariffs that discourage mickeytaking, or ISPs > using active traffic management to make the "best" use of the > bandwidth they do have. "Best" obviously implies a value judgement > somewhere. So long as customers have a choice of ISPs using different > approaches, I don't have a problem with the Ellacoya-type stuff. > Unfortunately, because of the actions of the UK telecom regulator, and > the actions of the monopoly BT who they are supposed to be regulating, > that choice isn't likely to be around much longer, but that's a > slightly different story. > > In the UK the most expensive part of most ISPs running costs is > traditionally the bandwidth between the ISP's own network and the > BTwholesale access network which connects the ISP to customers' phone > lines around the UK. Transit costs are a fraction of these BT costs. > I'm not familiar with this situation outside the UK, but wherever in > the world you are, there will be some part of the network which is the > "narrowest" (ie most expensive) point, and ISPs will want to make > "best" use of this bandwidth, because big bandwidth costs big money. It looks like some of the Big US ISPs are getting serious about this 5% also. A recent writeup mentions a test in Texas by Time-Warner of a tiered bandwidth service with monthly caps. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20080603/bs_nf/60098 Comcast is also mentioned as investigating this. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:13:31 -0700 (PDT) From: johnwallace4@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise Message-ID: On Jun 3, 4:12 am, JF Mezei wrote: > johnwalla...@gmail.com wrote: > > Ellacoya's deep packet inspection mostly looks at packet headers, > > protocol types, IP addresses, and the like, and uses them fo "traffic > > management" purposes, flow control, prioritisation, and such, without > > actually knowing or caring about the details of the content. > > I am affraid to tell you that you have drunken the kool-aid. I am quite > surprised that you would believe the above. > > BitTorrent does not use well known ports. It does not use any special IP > or TCP options. So pray tell how your magic Ellacoya boxes can detect a > "flow" of BitTorrent without looking at the packet payload ? > > In fact, Ellacoya prides itself in being able to detect BitTorrent flows > on well known ports such as 80. (for legal purposes, they don't have > the guts to say "BitTorrent" because they are affraid of being sued by > that corporation so they use "P2P". > > > I'm a > > customer of an ISP with Ellacoyas and I'm comfortable with it (for > > now), though I understand that other folks might not be happy; that;s > > what "choice" is for. > > "for now" is the big key here. They have hooked and brainwashed you. And > slowly, they will morph their service offering to a point where if you > wish to connect an Xbox you need to pay extra and they will configure > your ellacoya profile to allow Xbox traffic through. (yes, ellacoya > works on an individual basis can captures data on an individual basis > down to what applications you are using for how long). > > Want VoIP ? Well your telco ISP will block VoIP by default. (well not > totally block it, but they will give you such a low throughput as to > make it unusable). You want assured quality ? then you pay an extra $20 > per month to have SIP protocol unblocked. Of course, most people will > then look at the $20 + Vonage fees and decide to stay with the telco's > landline service. > > YOU HAVE TO NIP THIS IN THE BUD. IF YOU LET THOSE BOXES TAKE ROOT, THE > INTERNET WILL BECOME LIKE CABLE WHERE THE ISP WILL SELL YOU "CHANNELS" > AND YOU CAN ONLY WATCH THOSE CHANNELS. > > Ellacoya isn't about managing traffic, it is about segregating it so > that the ISP can make more money by making various applicatiosn > "optional extras". > > What's the point of setting up your own web site when most users won't > be able to access it ? You'll then be forced to go to facebook or > whichever popular web site has paid to be made available on ISP's "basic > access" packages, and you then have to be limited by what facebook gives > you. No more freedom to create you own web sites. > > In essence, it is moving the internet from democratic media to > corporatised media. > > Read about it. I didn't believe about this until Bell started to mess > withj my traffic (I am not a customer of Bell, Bell is messing with a > competitor's traffic) and the more I read about it, the more serious I > see the issue. > > > I suspect what JF is referring to, for real intrusive monitoring, > > where all http traffic flowing through your ISP is intercepted, not > > just headers, and the *contents* of your traffic used to provide > > "extra targeted" ads isn't Ellacoya at all. > > Do you seriously believe that Ellacoya's boxes are not able to record an > individual's HTTP requests ? Think again. Read up about it. And if they > were so angel like, why would they make so damned sure there is not a > trace of documentation on the net about how their boxes work ? But they > sure like to brag about their capabilities. > > Bell Canada is desperate to control media and get advertising revenus. > They wasted a LOT of money during .com trying to emaulate the > AOL-Time/Warner fiasco by buying media/tv in canada. They had to sell it > all off because they were nearly bankrupt. And now, they see an > opportunity to use the internet to get their foot into content again. There's a lot of different stuff being written about "net neutrality" at the moment by a lot of different people with different agendas. Some of it is remarkably reminiscent of the flat-earthers of the Campaign for Unmetered Telecom who in the days of dialup internet wanted unlimited dialup access for the same monthly price as a couple of hours dialup time. Sound familiar? Since those days, there's also been the dot con boom and bust, and the idea that connectivity providers also need to provide content (hence AOL TW etc), and the like. Some of it went a bit sub prime though didn't it... Anyway, I've followed the technical and economic development of UK mass market broadband since Pipex (re-selling BTwholesale) invented it (in 2002, iirc). Pipex back then was very different than today's Pipex, and it's a long time since I've been a Pipex customer. But then, as now, the UK market was dominated by various parts of BT, some visible to the general public, some like BTwholesale less visible. The ISP I'm now with is Plusnet, who unfortunately are now themselves part of BT (they weren't when I signed up). Plusnet were the first UK ISP to use Ellacoyas, and I followed the related discussion closely. Their use of Ellacoyas and other "traffic/tariff management" technologies is said to be one reason BT bought them. Anyway, over this time I have learnt that big bandwidth costs big money, and that any UK ISP who says that they offer an "unlimited" tariff at an interesting price is likely to be just lying (or out of business in a few months). But there are people out there who think that an "always on" internet connection means they can be "always downloading". These "always downloading" folks are a tiny proportion of the market, but they can use a huge proportion of the ISP's bandwidth (I don't think there's any dispute about that). And bandwidth costs money. And typically these "always downloading" folks are P2P users (or downloading from newsgroup binaries, which is another easily-identified set of bulk traffic). So the choice (at least in the UK) is between expensive ISPs (flat rate or PAYG) relying on massive overprovisioning without active traffic management, with tariffs that discourage mickeytaking, or ISPs using active traffic management to make the "best" use of the bandwidth they do have. "Best" obviously implies a value judgement somewhere. So long as customers have a choice of ISPs using different approaches, I don't have a problem with the Ellacoya-type stuff. Unfortunately, because of the actions of the UK telecom regulator, and the actions of the monopoly BT who they are supposed to be regulating, that choice isn't likely to be around much longer, but that's a slightly different story. In the UK the most expensive part of most ISPs running costs is traditionally the bandwidth between the ISP's own network and the BTwholesale access network which connects the ISP to customers' phone lines around the UK. Transit costs are a fraction of these BT costs. I'm not familiar with this situation outside the UK, but wherever in the world you are, there will be some part of the network which is the "narrowest" (ie most expensive) point, and ISPs will want to make "best" use of this bandwidth, because big bandwidth costs big money. One of Plusnet's staff has a writeup on this in glorious detail; URL at end. I actually don't necessarily believe the Ellacoya-class boxes can (or need to) do everything that is sometimes reported, particularly some of the "scare story" stuff. Ellacoyas need to know enough about "packet payload" to understand that a particular flow of packets is P2P or VoIP or whatever; they do not care whether a particular torrent download is "legit" (Linux ISO) or dubious (DVD rip), but they likely will want to distinguish between BBC iPlayer P2P and "other" not-media- industry-authorised P2P; how difficult will that be? So, what Ellacoya-class boxes need to do for mainstream ISPs is manage enough traffic of various classes (eg P2P, VoIP, etc) to make a worthwhile difference (in observed QoS, and financially) at the ISP. If 90% of the (e.g.) P2P traffic is trivially easy to identify, the other 10% probably doesn't matter much, so Ellacoya don't need to be able to identify and manage *all* traffic correctly 100% of the time, and they certainly don't need to be able to intercept, monitor and record individual web page contents, or individual torrent contents, or whatever. Monitoring and recording web *sites* being accessed is easy, and is probably a legal requirement in many countries, don't need Ellacoya for that. On the other hand, Phorm-type technology does intercept, monitor and record details of individual web page contents for individual internet users (well, maybe individual IP addresses?), and store selected results to sell on, e.g. for targeted advertising. There is even plenty of detail out there on how it does it. And that is something I'm not comfortable with. Fortunately, the folks running Plusnet have (so far) said "it's not for us". If/when it arrives, I'm off. [1] http://community.plus.net/blog/2008/02/28/how-uk-isps-are-charged-for-broadband-the-cost-of-ipstream/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:04:06 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise Message-ID: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <4844b7b1$0$7257$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > >>johnwallace4@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >>>Ellacoya's deep packet inspection mostly looks at packet headers, >>>protocol types, IP addresses, and the like, and uses them fo "traffic >>>management" purposes, flow control, prioritisation, and such, without >>>actually knowing or caring about the details of the content. >> >>I am affraid to tell you that you have drunken the kool-aid. I am quite >>surprised that you would believe the above. >> >>BitTorrent does not use well known ports. It does not use any special IP >>or TCP options. So pray tell how your magic Ellacoya boxes can detect a >>"flow" of BitTorrent without looking at the packet payload ? >> >>In fact, Ellacoya prides itself in being able to detect BitTorrent flows >>on well known ports such as 80. (for legal purposes, they don't have >>the guts to say "BitTorrent" because they are affraid of being sued by >>that corporation so they use "P2P". >> > > JF you seem to think that this is something new it isn't. Companies have been > fighting against the use of P2P applications and "firewall friendly" > applications using deep inspection and traffic shaping tools for years. > As to net neutrality this is a bit of mythology. The internet is and always has > been a connected set of private networks. Each owner of a private network has > always been free to accept, reject, throttle whatever traffic they like. > The classic example is the granddaddy of email blacklists the RBL. The RBL > (Realtime Blackhole list) could be deployed in two ways. The first was simply > as an email check as with all the other DNS based blocking lists. The second > though and the reason it is called a blackhole list was to alter routing > information to effectivily cut the listed servers off the internet as far as > those using the RBL service were concerned. This second method cuts not just > email traffic but all traffic. > > See > > http://www.mail-abuse.com/wp_introrbl.html > > At one point the company providing the Transatlantic link into Janet (UK Joint > Academic Network) was using the MAPS RBL in router blocking mode. Hence if a > site in the states managed to get onto that list and tried to contact a UK > university they would not be able to connect over the internet and the UK > university would have no knowledge of their connection attempts or way of > allowing the US system to communicate. The only solution was for the US > institution to get its system removed from the RBL. > This was in place for a number of years. > > > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > > > >> >> >>>I'm a >>>customer of an ISP with Ellacoyas and I'm comfortable with it (for >>>now), though I understand that other folks might not be happy; that;s >>>what "choice" is for. >> >>"for now" is the big key here. They have hooked and brainwashed you. And >>slowly, they will morph their service offering to a point where if you >>wish to connect an Xbox you need to pay extra and they will configure >>your ellacoya profile to allow Xbox traffic through. (yes, ellacoya >>works on an individual basis can captures data on an individual basis >>down to what applications you are using for how long). >> >>Want VoIP ? Well your telco ISP will block VoIP by default. (well not >>totally block it, but they will give you such a low throughput as to >>make it unusable). You want assured quality ? then you pay an extra $20 >>per month to have SIP protocol unblocked. Of course, most people will >>then look at the $20 + Vonage fees and decide to stay with the telco's >>landline service. >> >> >>YOU HAVE TO NIP THIS IN THE BUD. IF YOU LET THOSE BOXES TAKE ROOT, THE >>INTERNET WILL BECOME LIKE CABLE WHERE THE ISP WILL SELL YOU "CHANNELS" >>AND YOU CAN ONLY WATCH THOSE CHANNELS. >> >>Ellacoya isn't about managing traffic, it is about segregating it so >>that the ISP can make more money by making various applicatiosn >>"optional extras". >> >>What's the point of setting up your own web site when most users won't >>be able to access it ? You'll then be forced to go to facebook or >>whichever popular web site has paid to be made available on ISP's "basic >>access" packages, and you then have to be limited by what facebook gives >>you. No more freedom to create you own web sites. >> >>In essence, it is moving the internet from democratic media to >>corporatised media. >> >> >>Read about it. I didn't believe about this until Bell started to mess >>withj my traffic (I am not a customer of Bell, Bell is messing with a >>competitor's traffic) and the more I read about it, the more serious I >>see the issue. >> >> >> >>>I suspect what JF is referring to, for real intrusive monitoring, >>>where all http traffic flowing through your ISP is intercepted, not >>>just headers, and the *contents* of your traffic used to provide >>>"extra targeted" ads isn't Ellacoya at all. >> >>Do you seriously believe that Ellacoya's boxes are not able to record an >>individual's HTTP requests ? Think again. Read up about it. And if they >>were so angel like, why would they make so damned sure there is not a >>trace of documentation on the net about how their boxes work ? But they >>sure like to brag about their capabilities. >> >> >>Bell Canada is desperate to control media and get advertising revenus. >>They wasted a LOT of money during .com trying to emaulate the >>AOL-Time/Warner fiasco by buying media/tv in canada. They had to sell it >>all off because they were nearly bankrupt. And now, they see an >>opportunity to use the internet to get their foot into content again. >> An ISP is *not* a private net. It is a public network. As a common carrier, it is shielded from responsibility for content. In return for that shielding, it must provide transit for everyone on equal terms. At least, that is the way it is *supposed* to work. The ISPs seem to want the best of both worlds. There is a term for an economic system that uses the power of the state to protect entrenched oligarchies at the expense of personal liberties. Anyone care to invoke Godwin? I just today got an email from my ISP stating that they were going to change the terms of service. The included summary seemed fairly reasonable (don't know if the summary reflects the actual TOS), except for one phrase... "4. Modifications to AUP. We have added language to our AUP making clear (a) that we may monitor our subscribers’ compliance with our Terms of Service and AUP; and (b) that we have the right, but not the obligation, to pre-screen, refuse, move or remove any content available on the Service including, but not limited to, content that violates the law, our Terms of Service or our AUP." The "but not limited to" gives them the right to block or remove any content whatsoever, for any or no reason. For example, if they made a deal with M$ or Amazon, they could block iTunes downloads. Or they could block Skype because it competes with their VOIP service. Or they could throttle a customer because they complain too much about poor service. Or they could block email to the FCC if they suspected you were complaining. In the old days of dialup Internet, you could change ISPs if your current one was not providing decent service since there were lots of competitors, but now there are only two broadband providers (TelCo and cable TV company) available to most people. JF may be paranoid, but even paranoids have real enemies. -- John Santos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:12:50 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Net Neutrality is far more serious than people realise Message-ID: <4845c376$0$20580$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> John Santos wrote: > JF may be paranoid, but even paranoids have real enemies. Until bell started to do this throttling on commercial data links (not at the ISP level but at the common telecom carrier level), I also thought net neutrality was essentially a modern "hippie" issue. But Bell forced me to start to study what those ellacoya boxes can do. And this is what is truly scary. All of a sudden, those warning from the "net neutrality hippies" start to make sense. And yes, right now, Bell says its goal is only make P2P (they don't have the guts to say "BitTorrent" because BitTorrent is a legit commercial operation that sells movies legally) unusable during peak hours. (at the same time, it launches its own competing unthrottled video store). But when you look at the tactics and timing of Bell implementation, it is clear that once the CRTC refuses the request to remove them, Bell will not only be able to cripple its competitors, but it will then be able to change the configs of its ellacoya boxes to do far more. My ISP pays the big bucks to buy 5gbps bandwidth in the ADSL access network, plus roughly $20 for each individual subscriber. The more its customers transfer, the more bandwidth my ISP needs to buy from Bell to carry raw data between the homes and the ISP's premises. This isn't "internet", it is a simple point to point circuits to transfer data. My ISP then buys internet transit and has its own routers, BGP, AS Number, its own IP blocks. My ISP wants to give me full freedom to use any application I want (Bell now prevents it) in exchange for a download cap of 200 gigs a month. I can get an "unlimited" package at higher price, or can pay a reasonable price if I exceed the 200gigs limit. It is wrong to accuse "net neutrality" advocates to want to access the net for free. When Bell is doing is dictating what on can and cannot say over the telephone and inserting a "beep" in a phone conversation to blank out any word Bell nilaterally has decided shouldn't be said. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.310 ************************