INFO-VAX Wed, 28 May 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 297 Contents: Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Re: cron facility wanted for VMS RE: cron facility wanted for VMS Re: Galaxy on ES45 Re: How secur is delete/erase ? Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons RE: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Troubleshooting dead DS10 Re: Troubleshooting dead DS10 Re: VAX Media Re: VAX Media Re: VAX Media Re: VAX Media Re: VAX Media Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:02:40 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Message-ID: Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > I do not like "self-submitting" jobs very much. Neither do I. > It's a mess to get the full picture of all periodical jobs runed. > I prefer one single crontab.dat file where all jobs are listed > together. Me too. > > Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:04:22 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > As others have mentioned, there is at least one port of cron available. I think this is what I am going to wind up recommending. > > I'd like to recommend a product called JAMS from Argent Software. Where > cron will run a job every day at 11:45, JAMS will accept specifications > like "11:45 every weekday except holidays". Execution can be made > conditional on the success or failure of some other job. I'm sure JAMS is just fine but they will not agree to paying for any new VMS software no matter how cheap the license is. So it looks like it's going to be cron. -Andrew Marlow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:31:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Cluster-Karl Subject: Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Message-ID: I packaged a freeware cron package into a PCSI kit and did some maintainance on it. You may find here and try it: http://www.the-rohwedders.de/downloads/index.html regards kalle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:09:11 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Message-ID: <483D3D57.2020009@comcast.net> marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> As others have mentioned, there is at least one port of cron available. > > I think this is what I am going to wind up recommending. > >> I'd like to recommend a product called JAMS from Argent Software. Where >> cron will run a job every day at 11:45, JAMS will accept specifications >> like "11:45 every weekday except holidays". Execution can be made >> conditional on the success or failure of some other job. > > I'm sure JAMS is just fine but they will not agree to paying for any > new VMS software no matter how cheap the license is. So it looks like > it's going to be cron. > I'll let the JAMS folks correct any misconception, but I think that they will allow a small number of jobs to be run under a "free" licensing situation. Check out the JAMS website for details. I use JAMS as a hobbyist, and it works well for me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 04:24:58 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: cron facility wanted for VMS Message-ID: <4dae9f22-122c-4ecb-b4ff-6cdb33e04792@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On May 28, 8:04 am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > As others have mentioned, there is at least one port of cron available. > > I think this is what I am going to wind up recommending. > > > > > I'd like to recommend a product called JAMS from Argent Software. Where > > cron will run a job every day at 11:45, JAMS will accept specifications > > like "11:45 every weekday except holidays". Execution can be made > > conditional on the success or failure of some other job. > > I'm sure JAMS is just fine but they will not agree to paying for any > new VMS software no matter how cheap the license is. So it looks like > it's going to be cron. > > -Andrew Marlow Divert 5% from the money spent on Windows and you will have plenty :-( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:57:08 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: cron facility wanted for VMS Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com > [mailto:marlow.andrew@googlemail.com] > Sent: May 28, 2008 3:04 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: cron facility wanted for VMS > > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > > As others have mentioned, there is at least one port of cron > available. > > I think this is what I am going to wind up recommending. > > > > > I'd like to recommend a product called JAMS from Argent Software. > Where > > cron will run a job every day at 11:45, JAMS will accept > specifications > > like "11:45 every weekday except holidays". Execution can be made > > conditional on the success or failure of some other job. > > I'm sure JAMS is just fine but they will not agree to paying for any > new VMS software no matter how cheap the license is. So it looks like > it's going to be cron. > > -Andrew Marlow Andrew - Is there a reason why you would not simply use the native batch facility Which comes with OpenVMS? Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveG Subject: Re: Galaxy on ES45 Message-ID: <6fb5efa2-2288-43c7-8344-c57a87235bfc@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On May 27, 4:43=A0pm, Robert Deininger wrote: > In article , > =A0"Colin Butcher" wrote: > > > Galaxy does not work on the ES45, which is one reason why I don't have o= ne > > of them. > > > I think it's either console or IO bus related (you need a console per > > instance, plus you need the ability to split the IO buses as on the ES47= , > > ES40 and the 4100), but I don't know for certain. > > Galaxy support was in the original plan for the ES45. =A0The firmware work= > necessary to support it was postponed due to time-to-market pressure. > > After ES45 shipped, the FW work was postponed again, and eventually > cancelled completely. > > Contributing factors include (in no particular order): > 1. Marvel FW work was higher priority. > > 2. The Marvel systems, including ES47, were clearly better Galaxy > systems than ES45. =A0Once ES47 shipped, ES45 became much less interesting= > as a Galaxy platform. > > 3. ES40 has serious limitations as a Galaxy platform, at least for some > usage models. =A0You can make 2 Galaxy instances (partitions), but their > I/O resources are somewhat coupled. =A0Bus resets and other events in one > instance can spill over into the other instance. =A0This is a hardware > limitation; the FW and OS have to deal with it as best they can. =A0ES45 > Galaxy would have reduced, but not eliminated, these problems. > > 4. There was little perceived demand for Galaxy at the time. Lack of > publicity and pricing problems may well have contributed. =A0Most of the > visible demand was better matched to Marvel than to ES45. =A0 Given the > perceived level of demand and the difficulty making Galaxy well work on > ES40/ES45, management decided not to finish the engineering (and > subsequent testing) work on ES45. > > I was the engineering project leader for VMS on ES45 at the time. =A0The > model 1 system had already shipped, and we were working on the model 2 > upgrades, including the 1.25 GHz CPUs. =A0The Alphaserver group was mainly= > focused on DS25, DS15, and the Marvel systems. =A0VMS engineering was > working on all sorts of stuff, but the platform support group had Marvel > and Itanium work at much higher priority than Galaxy on ES45. =A0I > remember it being an easy decision for product management to cancel > Galaxy on ES45. =A0And, unless there was a lot of demand out there that > the managers didn't see, it was the right choice. > > If anyone needs a smallish Galaxy-capable system today, I recommend > ES47. =A0Or a refurbished ES40 if the price must be very low. > > =A0 -- Robert Thanks for the in depth explanation Robert. Its not often we see such and in this case, it makes sense. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 03:32:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: How secur is delete/erase ? Message-ID: On May 27, 11:45 am, "Klaus-D. Bohn" wrote: > Hello, > > i hope, i have a very simply question. > > How secur is "delete/erase" ? After this command, no other program can > recover these informations? > > Thank you very much! > > Klaus Klaus, I do not have the citation at hand, but there are US DoD standards for the erasure of media (I am sure that there are NATO equivalents). The OpenVMS erase (even without alternate passes/patterns) is generally sufficient to block programmatic reads. If whomever is trying to read the data has far more substantial resources, there are still a variety of ways that some data can be compromised. Among these problematic areas are a) bad blocks that formerly contained data; and b) if the disk is overwritten with a fixed pattern, there are reports that the original data can potentially recovered by lab-grade procedures. If this is of interest, I would refer you to the appropriate research. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 23:37:44 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > > My client uses VMS v7.3.1 and gets a VMS session using WRQ Reflection. > > This basically gives them an xterm session. > OBTW, are you sure it's an Xterm connection they're using to access > the application? Strictly speaking its not an xterm. It is a VT100 emulator via a Reflection session. -Andrew Marlow ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 23:56:14 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Message-ID: John Santos wrote: > If the process looks to VMS like it is running on a serial terminal > (virtual, telnet, ssh, LAT, etc.) then possibly the process is getting > disconnected when the user closes the window. This would show up in > SHOW USER/FULL as a disconnected session. The user could reconnect to > the process and resume where he had left off by logging into the system > again (or starting up another "xterm" session) and then using the > CONNECT command to reconnect to the virtual terminal (VTAxxx: device > displayed in the "SHOW USER/FULL" output.) If you login using the > normal "LOGINOUT" program, it will ask you if you want to connect to > any existing disconnected processes when you log in, but some process > connection mechanisms might bypass this, forcing you to manually > reconnect. You can only connect to a disconnected terminal from the > same account it was originally logged into. This is just the sort of info I was after. When this problem happens what I want to do is to identify the process and kill it. I dont want to reconnect to it. What will happen is some OP user or other will accidently disconnect their Reflection session then some other OP user will have to recover from this. > > Disconnected processes go away after a timeout, determined by a > sysgen parameter, TTY_TIMEOUT, default value 900 seconds (15 minutes.) I am not sure that this is happening but even if it is, we need to be able to find and kill the process well within that 15 min. -Andrew Marlow ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 2008 08:28:14 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Message-ID: In article , marlow.andrew@googlemail.com writes: > > Strictly speaking its not an xterm. It is a VT100 emulator via a > Reflection session. More importantly, is it a serial connection, or is it via some network stack? If the former, then there may be no indication that the connection is closed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 06:13:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith Cayemberg Subject: Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Message-ID: <2410576c-0203-47cd-9f54-bcb134190635@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 28, 8:56 am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > John Santos wrote: > > If the process looks to VMS like it is running on a serial terminal > > (virtual, telnet, ssh, LAT, etc.) then possibly the process is getting > > disconnected when the user closes the window. This would show up in > > SHOW USER/FULL as a disconnected session. The user could reconnect to > > the process and resume where he had left off by logging into the system > > again (or starting up another "xterm" session) and then using the > > CONNECT command to reconnect to the virtual terminal (VTAxxx: device > > displayed in the "SHOW USER/FULL" output.) If you login using the > > normal "LOGINOUT" program, it will ask you if you want to connect to > > any existing disconnected processes when you log in, but some process > > connection mechanisms might bypass this, forcing you to manually > > reconnect. You can only connect to a disconnected terminal from the > > same account it was originally logged into. > > This is just the sort of info I was after. When this problem happens > what I want to do is to identify the process and kill it. I dont want > to reconnect to it. What will happen is some OP user or other will > accidently disconnect their Reflection session then some other OP user > will have to recover from this. > > > > > Disconnected processes go away after a timeout, determined by a > > sysgen parameter, TTY_TIMEOUT, default value 900 seconds (15 minutes.) > > I am not sure that this is happening but even if it is, we need to be > able to find and kill the process well within that 15 min. > > -Andrew Marlow I found a pertinent post at the Ask The (OpenVMS) Wizard site which I believe explains what you are experiencing, and what you can do about it. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/group5/589.HTML you might also be interested in the following... http://tinyurl.com/6xokv7 http://www.saiga.com/hitman9/main.htm http://www.saiga.com/hitman9/id13.htm Cheers! Keith Cayemberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:21:24 -0700 (PDT) From: jj Subject: Re: How to spot an orphan in VMS Message-ID: On May 27, 9:09=A0am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > I don't know VMS so please excuse my ignorance. I am reasonably > familiar with Unix so I cannot help describing my problem in Unix > terms. > > My client uses VMS v7.3.1 and gets a VMS session using WRQ Reflection. > This basically gives them an xterm session. From there they run the sw > they need to use. This particular sw uses a lock such that only one > user at a time can do a particular task (dont ask). If a second user > needs to do it then the first user has to finish the session cleanly. > The problem is that sometimes they kill the xterm whilst the VMS sw is > still running. Apparently VMS does not spot this so other sw instances > that want to get a look in cannot. My question is: how can the ops > staff track down the process associated with the killed xterm? In unix > the process would become an orphan and get adopted by init. All > orphans can be found easily by grep'ing the output of ps. Maybe there > is some kind of filtering that can be done with SHOW USERS or > something like that. I asked the ops people and they did not know of a > way. > > Regards, > > Andrew Marlow If you know the file name of the file that is locked and where it is located. A simple $show dev/files devicename: will show the process that has the fiel locked. You can then do a $stop/id=3DProcessname to release it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 23:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: <6f6e49fd-9702-4ab6-9014-63988f260aea@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: > If you need some third party software that is no longer available > on VMS, then you need to move from VMS to *nix. The third party components are available but not the most recent versions. > > If you have sufficient customers that want your stuff on *nix > and will not accept it on VMS, then you need to add *nix as > supported platform. The use of VMS is internal - customer neither know nor care. -Andrew M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:00:56 -0700 (PDT) From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: > Porting software is sometimes just a matter of recompiling, relinking, > and testing. No in this case. > Porting an application of any significant size is going to cost a great > deal of money. What return will you get from the investment? It provides the opportunity to recode parts of the app which will hopefully eliminate some nasty hanging bugs that only happen in production. Moving off VMS also solves the problem that many people dont know VMS and no training is provided. Whilst Unix SA skills are thin on the ground they are more widespread than VMS skills. > > As for finding Unix sysadmins, this should not be a great problem. Send > your VMS sysadmin to Unix school! If all else fails, I'm available! > I've done both. They're not hiring. And training is not provided. Any gaps have to be solved in-house. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 03:42:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: On May 27, 9:27 am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: > I am considering the cost benefits or otherwise of moving some sw off > OpenVMS to Linux. I would like to hear about the pros and cons. > Hopefully this will not start a flamewar, I really do want to know! > > Here, as I see it, are the main issues: > > OpenVMS does not support the latest version of third party products we > use (e.g only Oracle 10g is supported). > > Most companies wont train people in VMS even if they use VMS kit. This > makes developers shy away (they prefer to know about they platform > they work on). > > OpenVMS offers better reliability due to clustering. > > VMS hardware is very reliable. > > A port away from VMS would be a generic Unix port rather than a port > that ties it to Linux. This would enable commercial unix > implementations such as Solaris to be used. > > Unix SAs are very thin on the ground these days. At least my client > already has the VMS ops people it needs. > > Regards, > > Andrew Marlow Andrew, Without knowing the specifics of your situation (e.g., what your software does and how it goes about doing it and which third part products are involved) it is almost impossible to make detailed comments. There are too many issues which can change the topic. Insofar as Oracle is concerned, I just attended (and spoke with) Oracle's team at the OpenVMS Bootcamp, and the their product roadmap made sense. Because of the NDA, I am somewhat reluctant to comment in a public forum on what was said. If Oracle is of particular interest, contact me privately and I will see if I can put you directly in touch with the relevant person. On other products, it is a question of which products, whether they are proprietary, or whether they are Open Source. If they are Open Source, then the easiest thing to do may be just to port them yourself. If they are proprietary, and only available off-platform, there are a variety of products, including CONNX, that allow one to "have one's cake and eat it too". In the end analysis, there is no generally correct answer, all the details must be checked before going down this path. If I can be of assistance privately, please let me know. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:57:15 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: marlow.andrew@googlemail.com > [mailto:marlow.andrew@googlemail.com] > Sent: May 28, 2008 3:01 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons > > > Porting software is sometimes just a matter of recompiling, > relinking, > > and testing. > > No in this case. > > > Porting an application of any significant size is going to cost a > great > > deal of money. What return will you get from the investment? > > It provides the opportunity to recode parts of the app which will > hopefully eliminate some nasty hanging bugs that only happen in > production. Moving off VMS also solves the problem that many people > dont know VMS and no training is provided. Whilst Unix SA skills are > thin on the ground they are more widespread than VMS skills. > > > > > > As for finding Unix sysadmins, this should not be a great problem. > Send > > your VMS sysadmin to Unix school! If all else fails, I'm available! > > I've done both. > > They're not hiring. And training is not provided. Any gaps have to be > solved in-house. If the company has minimal Unix skills and they are not willing to pay for consultants and/or training of internal staff, then any consideration of moving to a new Unix environment is a no brainer - it won't happen. It sounds like they need to really understand where the company is heading And update their current environment to meet these business requirements Vs. chasing the "grass is greener on the other side" OS religion discussions. And, as I stated earlier, any first level OPS person who can not manipulate a mouse to maintain a properly setup OpenVMS environment will have an even bigger issue trying to support a *nix environment. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 2008 11:59:37 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: <483d4929$0$15186$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , Bob Gezelter writes: >On May 27, 9:27 am, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote: >> I am considering the cost benefits or otherwise of moving some sw off >> OpenVMS to Linux. I would like to hear about the pros and cons. >> Hopefully this will not start a flamewar, I really do want to know! >> >> Here, as I see it, are the main issues: >> >> OpenVMS does not support the latest version of third party products we >> use (e.g only Oracle 10g is supported). >> >> Most companies wont train people in VMS even if they use VMS kit. This >> makes developers shy away (they prefer to know about they platform >> they work on). >> >> OpenVMS offers better reliability due to clustering. >> >> VMS hardware is very reliable. >> >> A port away from VMS would be a generic Unix port rather than a port >> that ties it to Linux. This would enable commercial unix >> implementations such as Solaris to be used. >> >> Unix SAs are very thin on the ground these days. At least my client >> already has the VMS ops people it needs. >> >> Regards, >> >> Andrew Marlow > >Andrew, > >Without knowing the specifics of your situation (e.g., what your >software does and how it goes about doing it and which third part >products are involved) it is almost impossible to make detailed >comments. There are too many issues which can change the topic. > >Insofar as Oracle is concerned, I just attended (and spoke with) >Oracle's team at the OpenVMS Bootcamp, and the their product roadmap >made sense. Because of the NDA, I am somewhat reluctant to comment in >a public forum on what was said. If Oracle is of particular interest, >contact me privately and I will see if I can put you directly in touch >with the relevant person. > >On other products, it is a question of which products, whether they >are proprietary, or whether they are Open Source. If they are Open >Source, then the easiest thing to do may be just to port them >yourself. If they are proprietary, and only available off-platform, >there are a variety of products, including CONNX, that allow one to >"have one's cake and eat it too". Save that with CONNX it's a really slow-rise batter. ;) I've used CONNX at 2 sites. It gets you SQL like query access to RMS files but it takes much effort to get there and it's SLOW. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:16:32 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: <483d5b27$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: >> If you need some third party software that is no longer available >> on VMS, then you need to move from VMS to *nix. > > The third party components are available but not the most recent > versions. > >> If you have sufficient customers that want your stuff on *nix >> and will not accept it on VMS, then you need to add *nix as >> supported platform. > > The use of VMS is internal - customer neither know nor care. To me it sounds as if that you can easily stay on VMS as long as the third party vendor is offering support on the "not the most recent version". Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:20:48 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: <483d5c27$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >> If you have sufficient customers that want your stuff on *nix >> and will not accept it on VMS, then you need to add *nix as >> supported platform. > You forgot one scenario under the current scenario. Instead of "do nothing", > you could also add > - upgrade current environment to use latest gui mgmt tools which will simplify > the Operational support environment such that any Operator who can handle a mouse > can manage an OpenVMS system. Most customers has more requirements for their platforms than "it can be managed with a mouse". > Other consideration as well- > - is your management under extreme pressures to reduce IT costs and have in > place a 2-3 year plan to consolidate servers, OS instances (where biggest > staff costs are hidden) and Data Centers? > > If yes, one bus app per OS instance platforms may not be the right target > environment. There are cultural and technical challenges to be considered > which will make it extremely difficult to consolidate at some future point. Consolidation is not working *for* VMS but *against* VMS. Consolidations works for the platforms where all the software is available for. The all VMS shop is a rare animal today. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:25:57 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OpenVMS and linux, pros and cons Message-ID: <483d5d5e$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote: >> Porting an application of any significant size is going to cost a great >> deal of money. What return will you get from the investment? > > It provides the opportunity to recode parts of the app which will > hopefully eliminate some nasty hanging bugs that only happen in > production. Porting to another platform is a costly way of doing bug fixing. It would be cheaper to fix the bugs while staying VMS. And note that the port would certainly create a bunch of new bugs. > Moving off VMS also solves the problem that many people > dont know VMS and no training is provided. Whilst Unix SA skills are > thin on the ground they are more widespread than VMS skills. You may find it difficult to find someone with VMS experience below 40. But there will be people around that either have continued on VMS or at least have used it previously and could read up on it quickly. >> As for finding Unix sysadmins, this should not be a great problem. Send >> your VMS sysadmin to Unix school! If all else fails, I'm available! >> I've done both. > > They're not hiring. And training is not provided. Any gaps have to be > solved in-house. That is an unhealthy policy. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 06:56:10 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Troubleshooting dead DS10 Message-ID: I have a DS10 466 that just died. Does nothing when I turn on the power. No lights or fan or anything. I assume that must be the power supply. I don't see a breaker or fuse. I have not replace a power supply, I guess I just pull out the tape drive and floppy drive to get to the power connectors of the main logic board? Thanks for any suggestions. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:10:36 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: Troubleshooting dead DS10 Message-ID: <3Ce%j.6806$772.3373@bignews2.bellsouth.net> Sounds like a PS or the front switch (power LED etc) but could be the Main Logic Board pricing as follows: Replacement P/S Island branded $249 NEW replacement switch $49 Replacement Motherboard for DS10 466 $199 (or $349 with heatsink and fan) David -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= "tadamsmar" wrote in message news:c112051e-77a6-4543-a8d7-aaed9e833fb9@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com... >I have a DS10 466 that just died. Does nothing when I turn on the > power. No lights or fan or anything. > > I assume that must be the power supply. I don't see a breaker or > fuse. > > I have not replace a power supply, I guess I just pull out the tape > drive and floppy drive to > get to the power connectors of the main logic board? > > Thanks for any suggestions. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:21:38 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: VAX Media Message-ID: In article <483cb28e$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > but it is correct that VAX => no Java. just curious, why ? Of course it is a moot point nowadays, since VAX was already a dead platform when Java started to become hip. But there was a technical excuse, ISTR, that IEEE FP support is mandatory for Java, but not available in VAX hardware. In this case, one could have emulated it in software. Slow, of course, but would it be show stopper ? I can't imagine that many FP intensive work being done in Java. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 05:23:09 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: VAX Media Message-ID: On May 28, 12:21 pm, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote: > In article <483cb28e$0$90274$14726...@news.sunsite.dk>, > > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > > but it is correct that VAX => no Java. > > just curious, why ? > > Of course it is a moot point nowadays, since VAX was already a dead platform > when Java started to become hip. > But there was a technical excuse, ISTR, that IEEE FP support > is mandatory for Java, but not available in VAX hardware. > In this case, one could have emulated it in software. > Slow, of course, but would it be show stopper ? > I can't imagine that many FP intensive work being done in Java. It was so sloooow as to be unusable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:30:33 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: VAX Media Message-ID: In article , IanMiller writes: > > It was so sloooow as to be unusable. Java/VAX in total or just the FP ? ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 2008 08:31:40 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VAX Media Message-ID: In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > But there was a technical excuse, ISTR, that IEEE FP support > is mandatory for Java, but not available in VAX hardware. > In this case, one could have emulated it in software. > Slow, of course, but would it be show stopper ? > I can't imagine that many FP intensive work being done in Java. DEC looked into doing it via an emulator and fonud it to be so slow as to be worthless. So they didn't go any farther. If you think it's worthwhile, go ahead and port the JRE to VAX and write emulator code for the floating point operations. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 05:48:24 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: VAX Media Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:31:40 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de > (Michael Kraemer) writes: > >> But there was a technical excuse, ISTR, that IEEE FP support >> is mandatory for Java, but not available in VAX hardware. >> In this case, one could have emulated it in software. >> Slow, of course, but would it be show stopper ? >> I can't imagine that many FP intensive work being done in Java. > > DEC looked into doing it via an emulator and fonud it to be so slow > as to be worthless. So they didn't go any farther. OTOH, It likely would have been masked by Java anyway, which is an interpreted language. They may have been looking at it from a more general perspective Java is not the bees knees. > > If you think it's worthwhile, go ahead and port the JRE to VAX and > write emulator code for the floating point operations. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 2008 10:47:35 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Message-ID: <483d3847$0$25043$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:22:21 -0700, Malcolm Dunnett > wrote: > >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> OK, I di that, and when I do a SHO DEV from the console I see >>> (11 and 12 are shadow set members) >>> P00>>>sho dev >>> dga11.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >>> dga11.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >>> dga12.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >>> dga12.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >>> dgb11.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >>> dgb11.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >>> dgb12.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >>> dgb12.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >>> so what do I put in bootdef_dev? all of the above? >>> >> >>> SET BOOTDEF_DEV dg*11,dg*12 >> > >Well after a few tires I got it, I think:-) > >P00>>>set bootdef_dev dg*11,dg*12 >device dg*11 is invalid >device dg*12 is invalid > >P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11 dga12 dga12 dgb12 >device dga11 is ambiguous >device dga12 is ambiguous >device dga12 is ambiguous >device dgb12 is ambiguous >P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11* dga12* dga12* dgb12* >P00>>>sho bootdef_dev >bootdef_dev dga11.1001.0.1.2 dga11.1002.0.1.2 dga12.1001.0.1.2 >dga12.1002.0.1.2 dga12.1001.0.1.2 dga12.1002.0.1.2 dgb12.1003.0.2.2 >dgb12.1004.0.2.2 There you go. Either specity the full device identification or wildcard it. I don't believe you can wildcard the controller designation (dg*11* dg*12*) but it may be possible. I'd have to experiment to be certain. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 15:10:04 +0200 From: Martin Vorlaender Subject: Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Message-ID: <6a53tfF353o0dU1@mid.individual.net> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > "Tom Linden" writes: >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11* dga12* dga12* dgb12* >> P00>>>sho bootdef_dev >> bootdef_dev dga11.1001.0.1.2 dga11.1002.0.1.2 dga12.1001.0.1.2 >> dga12.1002.0.1.2 dga12.1001.0.1.2 dga12.1002.0.1.2 dgb12.1003.0.2.2 >> dgb12.1004.0.2.2 > > There you go. Either specity the full device identification or wildcard it. > I don't believe you can wildcard the controller designation (dg*11* dg*12*) > but it may be possible. I'd have to experiment to be certain. Yes, you can wildcard the controller. Beware, however, not to catch devices you don't want (e.g. dg*1.* matches dga1.* as well as dga11.*). If you have such a configuration, "dga1.* dgb1.*" is the only possibility. Been there, got hit by that. BTW: If you have more than one HSG/HSV/whatever, quickset will only be good for the first storage device. The other(s) will have to be configured WWID by WWID, port for port. cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://vms.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:45:03 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveG Subject: Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Message-ID: <33bd6155-15d3-4112-a923-9422bbe75658@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On May 27, 10:22=A0pm, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: > > OK, I di that, and when I do a SHO DEV from the console =A0I see > > (11 and 12 are shadow set members) > > > P00>>>sho dev > > dga11.1001.0.1.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > dga11.1002.0.1.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > dga12.1001.0.1.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA12 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > dga12.1002.0.1.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA12 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > dgb11.1003.0.2.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > dgb11.1004.0.2.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA11 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > dgb12.1003.0.2.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA12 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > dgb12.1004.0.2.2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $1$DGA12 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HSG80 =A0V88F > > > so what do I put in bootdef_dev? =A0all of the above? > > =A0>>> SET BOOTDEF_DEV dg*11,dg*12- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Also be aware that all the above devices might not fit in the BOOTDEF_DEV environment variable. We just went through that excercise. Wonder if someone here knows how much space is reserved for the variable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 08:30:19 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Message-ID: <483d7a88$1@flight> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >> >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dg*11,dg*12 >> device dg*11 is invalid >> device dg*12 is invalid >> >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11 dga12 dga12 dgb12 >> device dga11 is ambiguous >> device dga12 is ambiguous >> device dga12 is ambiguous >> device dgb12 is ambiguous >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11* dga12* dga12* dgb12* >> P00>>>sho bootdef_dev >> bootdef_dev dga11.1001.0.1.2 dga11.1002.0.1.2 dga12.1001.0.1.2 >> dga12.1002.0.1.2 dga12.1001.0.1.2 dga12.1002.0.1.2 dgb12.1003.0.2.2 >> dgb12.1004.0.2.2 > > There you go. Either specity the full device identification or wildcard it. > I don't believe you can wildcard the controller designation (dg*11* dg*12*) > but it may be possible. I'd have to experiment to be certain. I think you can wildcard the controller (I'd swear I've done it, but it's been a while), but I forgot the trailing * on my earlier example. >>> SET BOOTDEF_DEV dg*11*,dg*12* should work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 08:47:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com Subject: Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Message-ID: <36cb28a6-1bf4-47e4-9a89-f106fbea673c@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On May 27, 9:25 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:22:21 -0700, Malcolm Dunnett > > > > wrote: > > Tom Linden wrote: > > >> OK, I di that, and when I do a SHO DEV from the console I see > >> (11 and 12 are shadow set members) > >> P00>>>sho dev > >> dga11.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> dga11.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> dga12.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> dga12.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> dgb11.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> dgb11.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> dgb12.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> dgb12.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> so what do I put in bootdef_dev? all of the above? > > > >>> SET BOOTDEF_DEV dg*11,dg*12 > > Well after a few tires I got it, I think:-) > > P00>>>set bootdef_dev dg*11,dg*12 > device dg*11 is invalid > device dg*12 is invalid > > P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11 dga12 dga12 dgb12 > device dga11 is ambiguous > device dga12 is ambiguous > device dga12 is ambiguous > device dgb12 is ambiguous > P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11* dga12* dga12* dgb12* Here you've listed "unit 12" via the "a" controller twice, and via the "b" controller once, but you've listed "unit 11" only via the "a" controller. Another consideration is which of $1$DGA11 or $1$DGA12 is the shadow master (assuming two devices are members of a system disk shadow set). It's probably best to list the shadow master first, so: P00>>> set bootdef_dev dga11* dgb11* dga12* dgb12* Another consideration is whether you've configured DOSD. If that is the case, you need to list both the system disk devices, as above, and the DOSD devices in, I think, dump_dev (I don't have a console to hand so I don't recall the environment variable name...do a P00>>>show dump* ). I seem to recall from my previous life that with the 8 device limit on these variables, we were only able to list a single path for one or more of the dump devices... -Ken ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 2008 16:51:23 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Message-ID: <483d8d8b$0$11621$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <36cb28a6-1bf4-47e4-9a89-f106fbea673c@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com writes: >On May 27, 9:25 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:22:21 -0700, Malcolm Dunnett >> >> >> >> wrote: >> > Tom Linden wrote: >> >> >> OK, I di that, and when I do a SHO DEV from the console I see >> >> (11 and 12 are shadow set members) >> >> P00>>>sho dev >> >> dga11.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >> >> dga11.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >> >> dga12.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >> >> dga12.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >> >> dgb11.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >> >> dgb11.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F >> >> dgb12.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >> >> dgb12.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F >> >> so what do I put in bootdef_dev? all of the above? >> >> > >>> SET BOOTDEF_DEV dg*11,dg*12 >> >> Well after a few tires I got it, I think:-) >> >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dg*11,dg*12 >> device dg*11 is invalid >> device dg*12 is invalid >> >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11 dga12 dga12 dgb12 >> device dga11 is ambiguous >> device dga12 is ambiguous >> device dga12 is ambiguous >> device dgb12 is ambiguous >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11* dga12* dga12* dgb12* > >Here you've listed "unit 12" via the "a" controller twice, >and via the "b" controller once, but you've listed "unit 11" >only via the "a" controller. Another consideration is >which of $1$DGA11 or $1$DGA12 is the shadow master >(assuming two devices are members of a system disk >shadow set). It's probably best to list the shadow master >first, so: > >P00>>> set bootdef_dev dga11* dgb11* dga12* dgb12* > >Another consideration is whether you've configured >DOSD. If that is the case, you need to list both the >system disk devices, as above, and the DOSD >devices in, I think, dump_dev (I don't have a console >to hand so I don't recall the environment variable >name...do a P00>>>show dump* ). I seem to >recall from my previous life that with the 8 device >limit on these variables, we were only able to >list a single path for one or more of the dump >devices... > > -Ken Ken, I think he already posted that that was a typo and should read as you have pointed out. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:40:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com Subject: Re: wwidmgr or how to replace server Message-ID: <7cb0a653-103b-4f4c-ab85-29845b7f5afb@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On May 28, 9:51 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <36cb28a6-1bf4-47e4-9a89-f106fbea6...@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, Ken.Fairfi...@gmail.com writes: > > > > >On May 27, 9:25 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > >> On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:22:21 -0700, Malcolm Dunnett > > >> wrote: > >> > Tom Linden wrote: > > >> >> OK, I di that, and when I do a SHO DEV from the console I see > >> >> (11 and 12 are shadow set members) > >> >> P00>>>sho dev > >> >> dga11.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> >> dga11.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> >> dga12.1001.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> >> dga12.1002.0.1.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> >> dgb11.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> >> dgb11.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA11 HSG80 V88F > >> >> dgb12.1003.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> >> dgb12.1004.0.2.2 $1$DGA12 HSG80 V88F > >> >> so what do I put in bootdef_dev? all of the above? > > >> > >>> SET BOOTDEF_DEV dg*11,dg*12 > > >> Well after a few tires I got it, I think:-) > > >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dg*11,dg*12 > >> device dg*11 is invalid > >> device dg*12 is invalid > > >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11 dga12 dga12 dgb12 > >> device dga11 is ambiguous > >> device dga12 is ambiguous > >> device dga12 is ambiguous > >> device dgb12 is ambiguous > >> P00>>>set bootdef_dev dga11* dga12* dga12* dgb12* > > >Here you've listed "unit 12" via the "a" controller twice, > >and via the "b" controller once, but you've listed "unit 11" > >only via the "a" controller. Another consideration is > >which of $1$DGA11 or $1$DGA12 is the shadow master > >(assuming two devices are members of a system disk > >shadow set). It's probably best to list the shadow master > >first, so: > > >P00>>> set bootdef_dev dga11* dgb11* dga12* dgb12* > > >Another consideration is whether you've configured > >DOSD. If that is the case, you need to list both the > >system disk devices, as above, and the DOSD > >devices in, I think, dump_dev (I don't have a console > >to hand so I don't recall the environment variable > >name...do a P00>>>show dump* ). I seem to > >recall from my previous life that with the 8 device > >limit on these variables, we were only able to > >list a single path for one or more of the dump > >devices... > > > -Ken > > Ken, > > I think he already posted that that was a typo and should read as you > have pointed out. Right, my bad, missed the context of his one-liner (ditto Tom's sentiments about the interface...). Thanks, Ken ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.297 ************************