INFO-VAX Mon, 21 Apr 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 223 Contents: AGRICULTURAL NEWS Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 RE: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Re: Max drive size for HSZ22 ? Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server multi-process writing to TLB Re: multi-process writing to TLB Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh The MBM> prompt is what?? How do I exit?? Re: The MBM> prompt is what?? How do I exit?? Re: The MBM> prompt is what?? How do I exit?? Re: TL892 (two TZ89s) one "In-Flex" Re: UIC full display Question why VMS at uni? RE: why VMS at uni? Re: why VMS at uni? Re: why VMS at uni? Re: why VMS at uni? Re: why VMS at uni? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:18:02 -0700 (PDT) From: shanthi Subject: AGRICULTURAL NEWS Message-ID: <1820fd94-c203-4442-85e5-6c67e187143f@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com> http://agriculturalnewsletter.blogspot.com http://carisoprodol2.blogspot.com http://ultram1.blogspot.com/ http://levitraonline2.blogspot.com/ http://viagraonline1.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 08:34:46 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Message-ID: In article , AEF writes: > > OK, so what makes this more than the usual incremental gain that never > seems to make anything run faster anyway? I mean Jetsons is pretty > extreme: not only flying cars, but buildings on multi-hundred-foot > stilts, lots of robotic linkage machines, smart-ass robots, and I > can't remember what else. Hey, I can't do it justice here, but > wikipedia has a good, but short, write-up about it. And the show did > have what for me was the first hint of the possibility of RSI: > buttonitis! Though I laughed at it at the time, which I suppose was > the intent, anyway. There were days when George would get home and complain that his button pushing finger was killing him. Some days I get home and my fingers hurt after a day on a keypad. On what's on that keypad? Buttons. So I think of George and things to come. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Message-ID: On Apr 21, 9:34 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , AEF writes: > > > > > OK, so what makes this more than the usual incremental gain that never > > seems to make anything run faster anyway? I mean Jetsons is pretty > > extreme: not only flying cars, but buildings on multi-hundred-foot > > stilts, lots of robotic linkage machines, smart-ass robots, and I > > can't remember what else. Hey, I can't do it justice here, but > > wikipedia has a good, but short, write-up about it. And the show did > > have what for me was the first hint of the possibility of RSI: > > buttonitis! Though I laughed at it at the time, which I suppose was > > the intent, anyway. > > There were days when George would get home and complain that his > button pushing finger was killing him. Some days I get home and my > fingers hurt after a day on a keypad. On what's on that keypad? > Buttons. So I think of George and things to come. I rewrote this at least a couple of times and I originally had the ending as, "But the show did have what for me ....". In one of those rewrites it seemed to me for some reason that I needed And instead of But. Sorry. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 08:36:35 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Message-ID: In article <6718lhF2m4eapU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Somebody tell me again how DOD is one of VMS's biggest customers! I'm, sorry, we were unable to ascertain need to know. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:28:54 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:billg999@cs.uofs.edu] > Sent: April 20, 2008 7:07 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 > [snip...] > > > > Yeah, and let me guess - the people saying this are under 30 (maybe > 35) > > No, actually my peers alone range in age from their 20's to nearly 60. > The people making policy tend to be at the higher end of the spectrum. > > > and are promoting platforms like Windows and Linux that have 5-20 > security > > patches released each and every month. And that does not include the > > fixes auctioned off privately at sites like this: > > > > > http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=3D3D128411&WT.svl=3D3Dnews= 1_ > 1 > > You really are a "one hit wonder". Can't get off this and can't seem > to > grasp the concept that there are perfectly secure Windows systems in > use > all over. And we all know the rate at which Linux is growing. Seems > the > only system conspicuous in its absence in the industry today is VMS. > What really blows me away is experienced IT types who do not understand that yes, any platform can be made more secure with the right amount of effort etc, but yet do not understand that when the OS vendor releases 5-20 new security patches each and every month, how do they ensure that the platform "stays" secure? Especially when applications need to be re-tested before OS patches are released into production (as any self respecting mission critical shop does). What is so difficult to understand about this concept? If you had stated 15 years ago to any experienced IT person that you wanted to implement a new platform and the only down side was dealing with 5-20 new security patches each and every month, you would have been laughed out of the board room. So, why is this so different today? [snip...] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:55:24 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Message-ID: <480cb8f4$0$25500$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 21-4-2008 17:28 Main, Kerry wrote... [snip] > If you had stated 15 years ago to any experienced IT person that you > wanted to implement a new platform and the only down side was dealing > with 5-20 new security patches each and every month, you would have > been laughed out of the board room. Ah, the old Henry Ford adagium: had he walked into said board room, declaring that he found a new means of transportation, but the only downside was that it would kill a couple of hundreds of thousands of people each year, sure, he would have been laughed out of the room. Meanwhile, we all drive cars, some of us will be killed by a car, and noone really says we shouldn't use cars because of this. Windows is just there, patches and all. Get used to it. -- Wilm Boerhout Zwolle, NL remove OLD PAINT from return address to reply ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 16:23:03 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Message-ID: <673tb7F2lqjjfU2@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <6718lhF2m4eapU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Somebody tell me again how DOD is one of VMS's biggest customers! > > I'm, sorry, we were unable to ascertain need to know. This red herring is getting as tired as Kerry's "5-20 patches" mantra. How many times do I have to tell you, I am on the inside. I am an Information Systems Technician Warrant Officer. I and my peers are "the subject matter experts" when it comes to information systems. My unit is part of DISA who approves and certifies all AIS's in DOD. All that being said, I have yet to run into any of my peers who has ever seen a DOD VMS system. (Yes, I do ask them!) I deal with people at the top of the AIS policy ladder and have specifically offered my services if they had need for someone with VMS experience. To this point I have not been called upon for even one case of needed VMS assistance. I know there are still VMS systems in existance. But they appear to be the very best examples of legacy systems. They run one or two fixed programs. They see no new development and very limited maintenance (probably due to a fear that anything done may result in breaking the running application.) If this describes "VMS's biggest customer" then things are a lot worse off than people here realize. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:00:22 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Message-ID: In article <673tb7F2lqjjfU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > This red herring is getting as tired as Kerry's "5-20 patches" mantra. > How many times do I have to tell you, I am on the inside. I am an > Information Systems Technician Warrant Officer. I and my peers are > "the subject matter experts" when it comes to information systems. My > unit is part of DISA who approves and certifies all AIS's in DOD. don't be too specific here, otherwise you might have to shoot us all. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:39:32 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Max drive size for HSZ22 ? Message-ID: <8W%Oj.6369$R_4.5146@newsb.telia.net> Muddflapp Mohican wrote: > > Connecting a 73GB disk directly to this will actually mount and read data > but as soon as you INIT, Create/Dir, or Create file, the system crashes > unless your running a new OS Version. And why aren't you ? ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 08:29:16 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article <08041807563198_2020CE0A@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: >>> Oh, really? So, the RFC expects the FTP client to do caret removal >>> on the names supplied by the FTP server? This seems to me unlikely. >>> Have you ever used a TCPIP FTP server with extended file names on an >>> ODS5 disk? (Apparently not. It's lamer than you might think possible.) >> >> Why should the carets be removed? They are part of the file name. >> >> Oh, you want a^.b.c on VMS to become a.b.c on some other platform? >> That's your problem, just like when we wanted A.FTN from RSX to >> become A.FOR on VMS. >> > > Is there some benefit to putting carets in a file name? Other than > creating compatibility problems????? VMS will respond if you just want to open a.b.c, anyhow. If the FTP client won't let you ask for it, get another one. If the FTP server screws it up, get a better stack. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 08:32:29 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: In article <1208629068_265@isp.n>, Jeff Campbell writes: > > NLIST does not work from the command prompt: > NLIST is not a user interface command, its the RFC command that the user interface sends. Generally on UNIX this is caused by the ftp client's user interface command "dir". However, some clients have techniques that will allow the user to enter the RFC level command, try "quote". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:52:18 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: <08042107521807_2020CE0A@antinode.org> From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > VMS will respond if you just want to open a.b.c, anyhow. If the FTP > client won't let you ask for it, get another one. If the FTP server > screws it up, get a better stack. Thanks so much for the helpful advice. As for a better FTP client, I was trying to get one fixed. As for the FTP server, how will my getting a better one fix all the other bad ones in the world? > However, some clients have techniques that will allow the user to > enter the RFC level command, try "quote". Perhaps _you_ should try it before wasting anyone else's time with yet another so-helpful suggestion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Joshua Lehrer Subject: multi-process writing to TLB Message-ID: May two distinct processes attempt to replace/add/update different modules in the same text library at the same time? In other words, may two processes running on the same node at the same time issue the following commands and expect the text library to be well formed at the completion? $proc1] lib/text/replace text.tlb module1 $proc2] lib/text/replace text.tlb module2 Thanks, josh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:47:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com Subject: Re: multi-process writing to TLB Message-ID: <53c18221-d08b-4c85-8ec8-f8714590268c@z24g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Apr 21, 8:16 am, Joshua Lehrer wrote: > May two distinct processes attempt to replace/add/update different > modules in the same text library at the same time? > > In other words, may two processes running on the same node at the same > time issue the following commands and expect the text library to be > well formed at the completion? > > $proc1] lib/text/replace text.tlb module1 > $proc2] lib/text/replace text.tlb module2 Based on very old memories (not terribly reliable!) of product installations, etc., I believe the answer is "no". If you're doing this in a command procedure, you'll want to code a small wait-loop around the update in case one or another of the processes gets an error... -Ken ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 08:39:39 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: In article <01b89554-e11f-47cd-9a32-a23966054820@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > Yet they supplanted many VMS systems with their AS/400's! Well, VAX/ > VMS, at least. I personally witnessed one in action, and one of the AS/ > 400 programmers said the AS/400 was known as the VAX killer. :-( AS/400 was one of a few different attempt by IBM to build a VAX killer. While they had some success of there own, none of them killed the VAX. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:04:02 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:39:39 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article > <01b89554-e11f-47cd-9a32-a23966054820@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF > writes: >> >> Yet they supplanted many VMS systems with their AS/400's! Well, VAX/ >> VMS, at least. I personally witnessed one in action, and one of the AS/ >> 400 programmers said the AS/400 was known as the VAX killer. :-( > > AS/400 was one of a few different attempt by IBM to build a VAX > killer. While they had some success of there own, none of them > killed the VAX. > Actually it was a continuation of the line that began as the System 3 in the early seventies, was intended (I think) to provide a continuation for customers of a very profitable line, and may have incidentally prevented some of those customers from migrating to VAX. But they were in different worlds anyway, VAX was seen as a fortran machine and System 3, 34, as RPG machines. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:13:38 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > AS/400 was one of a few different attempt by IBM to build a VAX > killer. While they had some success of there own, none of them > killed the VAX. Ahem, VAX is dead as far as I can see (as are DEC), whereas AS/400 (and IBM) are pretty much alive. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:31:04 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <480c9711$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Tom Linden wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:39:39 -0700, Bob Koehler > wrote: >> In article >> <01b89554-e11f-47cd-9a32-a23966054820@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >>> Yet they supplanted many VMS systems with their AS/400's! Well, VAX/ >>> VMS, at least. I personally witnessed one in action, and one of the AS/ >>> 400 programmers said the AS/400 was known as the VAX killer. :-( >> >> AS/400 was one of a few different attempt by IBM to build a VAX >> killer. While they had some success of there own, none of them >> killed the VAX. >> > Actually it was a continuation of the line that began as the System 3 in > the early seventies, was intended (I think) to provide a continuation for > customers of a very profitable line, and may have incidentally prevented > some of those customers from migrating to VAX. I think that is an important point. AS/400 may have cost Digital more customers that just those actually switching from VAX to AS/400. Arne ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 12:17:53 -0500 From: BEGINcornelius@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) Subject: The MBM> prompt is what?? How do I exit?? Message-ID: <1otP1vNyPmKg@eisner.encompasserve.org> I guess I know that the MBM> prompt is some hardware level management tool, and I know that you about have to stand on your head to get into it. The problem is, I have a serious need to get into the system console and another system administrator left this blasted thing running. How do I get out of it?? -- George Cornelius cornelius A T eisner D O T decus D O T org =========================================================================== From my console system: 10:59:55 MBM> 10:59:55 MBM> help 10:59:57 NAME 10:59:57 help 10:59:57 FUNCTION 10:59:57 Display information about CLI commands. 10:59:57 SYNOPSIS 10:59:57 help [, *] 10:59:57 Command synopsis conventions: 10:59:57 Implies a placeholder for user specified item. 10:59:57 ... Implies an item or list of items. 10:59:57 [] Implies optional keyword or item. 10:59:57 {a,b,c} Implies any one of a, b, c. 10:59:57 {a|b|c} Implies any combination of a, b, c. 10:59:57 10:59:57 The following help topics are available: 10:59:57 10:59:57 assign component assign memory bootline build fru 10:59:57 clear clear display clear error clear log 10:59:57 clear port clear srmenv config cables connect 10:59:58 create partition d delete partition deposit 10:59:58 disable test e el enable tes 10:59:58 examine halt in halt out hangup 10:59:58 help locate logout modify par 10:59:58 power off power on reset save parti 10:59:58 set set escape set membership set sys_se 10:59:58 set time show show cables show duo 10:59:58 show error show fru show grid show log 10:59:58 show membership show memory show network show parti 10:59:58 show power show system show sys_serial_num show time 10:59:58 show version telnet test test led 10:59:58 update uptime 10:59:59 MBM> 11:00:00 MBM> 11:00:01 MBM> 11:00:01 MBM> logout 11:00:12 MBM> 11:00:13 MBM> 11:00:13 MBM> =========================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 12:45:09 -0500 From: BEGINcornelius@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: The MBM> prompt is what?? How do I exit?? Message-ID: In article <1otP1vNyPmKg@eisner.encompasserve.org>, BEGINcornelius@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) writes: > I guess I know that the MBM> prompt is some hardware level management tool, > and I know that you about have to stand on your head to get into it. > > The problem is, I have a serious need to get into the system console and > another system administrator left this blasted thing running. How do I > get out of it?? To answer my own question: I don't _want_ to get out of it. It apparently _is_ the console subsystem on my ES47. I typed connect and wound up on the VMS console. Of course, I lost two days' of console messages, but what the heck... Nobody should even need console messages these days, right? -- George Cornelius cornelius A T eisner D O T decus D O T org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com Subject: Re: The MBM> prompt is what?? How do I exit?? Message-ID: On Apr 21, 10:17 am, BEGINcornel...@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) wrote: > I guess I know that the MBM> prompt is some hardware level management tool, > and I know that you about have to stand on your head to get into it. > > The problem is, I have a serious need to get into the system console and > another system administrator left this blasted thing running. How do I > get out of it?? [...] It's easier than you think. :-) First find out what partitions you have (hopefully the partitions are named the same as your nodes): MBM> show part Then, connect to the partition you want to access: MBM> connect -hp There is HELP at the MBM> prompt, btw, but the thing I missed the first time I wanted to connect to a "system console" was the need for the "-hp" switch. -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:05:35 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: TL892 (two TZ89s) one "In-Flex" Message-ID: William Webb wrote: > It means Call Field Service.and get the drive replaced. > > WWWebb > > On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Muddflapp Mohican wrote: >> Hi. >> >> What does the "In-Flex" message mean on the TL892 tape library ? >> >> The tape library uses SCSI-HVD and has two TZ89s. >> >> Drive 0: Idle >> Drive 1: In-Flex >> Loader: Idle >> >> 0*****-*****9 >> I'd recommend replacing the guy who wrote the drive's firmware! "In-Flex" is meaningless noise to 99.99999% of VMS people. I worked with a number of different DLT drives and even a tape library (briefly) and never encountered this string. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 07:52:00 +0200 From: eplan@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: UIC full display Question Message-ID: <480c47a0@news.langstoeger.at> In article , Muddflapp Mohican writes: >I think what you want is: > >$ mcr authorize add /identifier/value=[200,11420] PDZA010 $ mcr authorize add /identifier/value=uic=[200,11420] PDZA010 >I hope this message produces text only and not html or mime. >It's been several years since I've posted to this forum. >I'm using a mail client called SeaMonkey. All is well. Thanks for your efforts -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:56:50 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: why VMS at uni? Message-ID: <20080421085650.GB33626@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> because "It appears that the Machine Room has suffered a major power failure. As a result Bluecrystal is currently unavailable. We are working on the problem and hope to have the system back up and running by Monday. Sorry for the inconvenience." from Sunday's sysadmin's notification about our supercomp (http://www.acrc.bris.ac.uk/acrc/hpc.htm). It is still down on Mon morning. We could certainly do with some RAS (or RASS)... But to be honest, I wonder how much administrator skills have to do with RAS, be it a VMS or other cluster. -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:35:04 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: why VMS at uni? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Anton Shterenlikht [mailto:mexas@bristol.ac.uk] > Sent: April 21, 2008 4:57 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: why VMS at uni? > > because > > "It appears that the Machine Room has suffered a major > power failure. As a result Bluecrystal is currently > unavailable. > > We are working on the problem and hope to have the system back > up and running by Monday. > > Sorry for the inconvenience." > > from Sunday's sysadmin's notification about > our supercomp (http://www.acrc.bris.ac.uk/acrc/hpc.htm). > It is still down on Mon morning. > > We could certainly do with some RAS (or RASS)... > > But to be honest, I wonder how much administrator skills have to > do with RAS, be it a VMS or other cluster. > > -- > Anton Shterenlikht > Room 2.6, Queen's Building > Mech Eng Dept > Bristol University > University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK > Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 > Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 RASS is all about the skills of the local administrator to implement the technology available to him/her in order to protect the business he/she is supporting and to meet defined SLA's. Some platforms have proven technology that makes it easy to do this, while others have loads of scripts, third party utilities etc that need to be put in place. Also, if the business says a 2 day downtime is ok, then it does not make sense to spend excessive $'s on technology that will make it available in hours. Course, the challenge is that the business will often forget that they originally said 2 days of downtime is an acceptable risk and will want the app back up 10 minutes after it goes down. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:04:01 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: why VMS at uni? Message-ID: <480c90bb$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > because > > "It appears that the Machine Room has suffered a major > power failure. As a result Bluecrystal is currently unavailable. > > We are working on the problem and hope to have the system back > up and running by Monday. > > Sorry for the inconvenience." > > from Sunday's sysadmin's notification about > our supercomp (http://www.acrc.bris.ac.uk/acrc/hpc.htm). > It is still down on Mon morning. > > We could certainly do with some RAS (or RASS)... > > But to be honest, I wonder how much administrator skills have to > do with RAS, be it a VMS or other cluster. The two most important factors are: - the willingness to pay for redundancy - the syadmins ability to implement it correctly I doubt that many super computers has a standby system .... Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:11:56 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: why VMS at uni? Message-ID: In article <20080421085650.GB33626@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > because > > > We could certainly do with some RAS (or RASS)... ... if you brought along a big chunk of extra money. I doubt that any HPC centre has extra funding to replicate itself in order to be ultra-reliable. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:20:25 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: why VMS at uni? Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Anton Shterenlikht wrote: >> because >> >> "It appears that the Machine Room has suffered a major >> power failure. As a result Bluecrystal is currently unavailable. >> >> We are working on the problem and hope to have the system back >> up and running by Monday. >> >> Sorry for the inconvenience." >> >> from Sunday's sysadmin's notification about >> our supercomp (http://www.acrc.bris.ac.uk/acrc/hpc.htm). >> It is still down on Mon morning. >> >> We could certainly do with some RAS (or RASS)... >> >> But to be honest, I wonder how much administrator skills have to >> do with RAS, be it a VMS or other cluster. > > The two most important factors are: > - the willingness to pay for redundancy > - the syadmins ability to implement it correctly > > I doubt that many super computers has a standby system .... > > Arne 100% uptime is EXPENSIVE. It generally requires redundant computers, storage, air conditioners, electric power supply, chilled water, etc. Costing out the necessary capital investment is generally enough to make most people concede that 97% uptime will do just fine! There are cases where nothing but 100% will do and that's when you see N+1 or Dual Redundancy for everything essential to the operation of the data center. It's generally not done unless lives, or many megabucks, are at stake! ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 2008 15:56:56 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: why VMS at uni? Message-ID: <673rq7F2lqjjfU1@mid.individual.net> In article <20080421085650.GB33626@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > because > > "It appears that the Machine Room has suffered a major > power failure. As a result Bluecrystal is currently unavailable. > > We are working on the problem and hope to have the system back > up and running by Monday. > > Sorry for the inconvenience." > > from Sunday's sysadmin's notification about > our supercomp (http://www.acrc.bris.ac.uk/acrc/hpc.htm). Somehow I doubt even VMS could contiue to run when the power went down. My servers can ride out outges of up to about 2 hours, but we don't really plan on it. The UPS's are more for power conditioning and to allow for a controlled shutdown in the event of a power failure. > It is still down on Mon morning. > > We could certainly do with some RAS (or RASS)... > > But to be honest, I wonder how much administrator skills have to > do with RAS, be it a VMS or other cluster. If your Uni is anything like mine, VMS wouldn't help this either. While I am willing to make the trip in to reset things outside of normal work time, the U's data center tends to not be as dedicated. We have even had network outages that cut off the whole campus from the INTERNET that were knowingly allowed to wait overnight or thru the rest of a weekend rather than have someone called in to fix it. It's the nature of the (academic) beast. And probably why so many people don't take Universities seriously when discussing professional IT installations. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.223 ************************