INFO-VAX Sat, 19 Apr 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 218 Contents: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... cURL 7.18.1 available Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:53:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Message-ID: On Apr 18, 9:38=A0am, AEF wrote: > On Apr 17, 9:34 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > > Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core. > > > Although no firm date has been given, this announcement gives us a > > glimse of a possible "George Jetson" future. > > What does this have to do with the Jetsons? > > > > > > >http://www.dailytech.com/Dodecacore+The+Megahertz+Race+is+Now+Officia... > > > > > > A twin-die Istanbul processor could enable 12 cores in a single > > package. Each of these cores will communicate to each other via the > > now-enabled HT3.0 interconnect on the processor. > > > The rabbit hole gets deeper. =A0Since each of these processors will > > contain a dual-channel memory controller, a single-core can emulate > > quad-channel memory functions by accessing the other dual-channel > > memory controller on the same socket. =A0This move is likely a > > preemptive strike against Intel's Nehalem tri-channel memory > > controller. > > > Motherboard manufacturers claim Shanghai and its many-core derivatives > > will be backwards compatible with existing Socket 1207 motherboards. > > However, processor-to-processor communication will downgrade to lower > > HyperTransport frequencies on these older motherboards. The newest > > 1207+ motherboards will officially support the HyperTransport 3.0 > > frequencies. > > > > > > Neil Rieck > > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Sorry, it's a colloquial expression I use from time-to-time. When I was a kid, the Jetsons provided a cool look into one possible future. Flying cars were never seen again until Blade Runner when the future didn=92t look so cool. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:09:12 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Message-ID: On Apr 18, 5:53 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Apr 18, 9:38 am, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Apr 17, 9:34 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > > > Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core. > > > > Although no firm date has been given, this announcement gives us a > > > glimse of a possible "George Jetson" future. > > > What does this have to do with the Jetsons? > > > >http://www.dailytech.com/Dodecacore+The+Megahertz+Race+is+Now+Officia..= . > > > > > > > > A twin-die Istanbul processor could enable 12 cores in a single > > > package. Each of these cores will communicate to each other via the > > > now-enabled HT3.0 interconnect on the processor. > > > > The rabbit hole gets deeper. Since each of these processors will > > > contain a dual-channel memory controller, a single-core can emulate > > > quad-channel memory functions by accessing the other dual-channel > > > memory controller on the same socket. This move is likely a > > > preemptive strike against Intel's Nehalem tri-channel memory > > > controller. > > > > Motherboard manufacturers claim Shanghai and its many-core derivatives= > > > will be backwards compatible with existing Socket 1207 motherboards. > > > However, processor-to-processor communication will downgrade to lower > > > HyperTransport frequencies on these older motherboards. The newest > > > 1207+ motherboards will officially support the HyperTransport 3.0 > > > frequencies. > > > > > > > > Neil Rieck > > > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > > > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/-Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Sorry, it's a colloquial expression I use from time-to-time. When I > was a kid, the Jetsons provided a cool look into one possible future. > Flying cars were never seen again until Blade Runner when the future > didn=92t look so cool. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ OK, so what makes this more than the usual incremental gain that never seems to make anything run faster anyway? I mean Jetsons is pretty extreme: not only flying cars, but buildings on multi-hundred-foot stilts, lots of robotic linkage machines, smart-ass robots, and I can't remember what else. Hey, I can't do it justice here, but wikipedia has a good, but short, write-up about it. And the show did have what for me was the first hint of the possibility of RSI: buttonitis! Though I laughed at it at the time, which I suppose was the intent, anyway. AEF -- UPPERCASE AND PROUD OF IT! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:22:30 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Message-ID: <4809498d$0$12319$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> AEF wrote: > OK, so what makes this more than the usual incremental gain that never > seems to make anything run faster anyway? I mean Jetsons is pretty > extreme: not only flying cars, but buildings on multi-hundred-foot > stilts, lots of robotic linkage machines, smart-ass robots, and I > can't remember what else. Does anyone ever walk in the Jetsons, or are they always on rolling carpets ? Seems to me that it is a future without any exercise (except for their dog). > AEF -- UPPERCASE AND PROUD OF IT! How dare you :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:23:18 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Message-ID: <2d797083-9331-434b-af3d-81113370b2e8@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Apr 18, 9:22 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > OK, so what makes this more than the usual incremental gain that never > > seems to make anything run faster anyway? I mean Jetsons is pretty > > extreme: not only flying cars, but buildings on multi-hundred-foot > > stilts, lots of robotic linkage machines, smart-ass robots, and I > > can't remember what else. > > Does anyone ever walk in the Jetsons, or are they always on rolling > carpets ? Seems to me that it is a future without any exercise (except > for their dog). Well, according to Wikipedia, George Jetson's job consists of pushing a single computer button for his entire 3-hour workday! And he works only 3 days a week! I don't remember that part, but I do remember one episode was about buttonitis: wearing out your finger pushing buttons all day. Little did they know RSI was in the (real) near future! Well, I assume people did know about writer's cramp, I assume. And musician's cramp! I'd say at least that far back, no? > > > AEF -- UPPERCASE AND PROUD OF IT! > > How dare you :-) I DARE! AEF -- UPPERCASE AND PROUD OF IT! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:37:38 -0700 From: Marty Kuhrt Subject: cURL 7.18.1 available Message-ID: The latest version of cURL, 7.18.1, has been released for OpenVMS and is available for download. The location is http://curl.haxx.se/download.html#VMS This is the binary and object library distribution of the cURL 7.18.1 release. See the readme.vms file in the zip for usage information. The zip files contain executables and objects built with OpenSSL, hpSSL and without SSL support. The files are in architecture specific zips. The OpenSSL and noSSL versions are self-contained in that you can run these programs without any other software on the system. For the hp SSL version, you will need to have hp's SSL product installed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:02:41 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Message-ID: All, The readers on this newsgroup may be interested in this Intel positioning p= aper comparing Itanium and x86 RAS: http://tinyurl.com/6h3n87 (see Appendix A) original link (may wrap) http://download.intel.com/products/processor/itanium/RAS_WPaper_Final_1207.= pdf Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 2008 15:31:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: In article <08041807563198_2020CE0A@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > Oh, really? So, the RFC expects the FTP client to do caret removal > on the names supplied by the FTP server? This seems to me unlikely. > Have you ever used a TCPIP FTP server with extended file names on an > ODS5 disk? (Apparently not. It's lamer than you might think possible.) Why should the carets be removed? They are part of the file name. Oh, you want a^.b.c on VMS to become a.b.c on some other platform? That's your problem, just like when we wanted A.FTN from RSX to become A.FOR on VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:15:27 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <08041807563198_2020CE0A@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: >> Oh, really? So, the RFC expects the FTP client to do caret removal >> on the names supplied by the FTP server? This seems to me unlikely. >> Have you ever used a TCPIP FTP server with extended file names on an >> ODS5 disk? (Apparently not. It's lamer than you might think possible.) > > Why should the carets be removed? They are part of the file name. > > Oh, you want a^.b.c on VMS to become a.b.c on some other platform? > That's your problem, just like when we wanted A.FTN from RSX to > become A.FOR on VMS. > Is there some benefit to putting carets in a file name? Other than creating compatibility problems????? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:28:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: <480904bb$0$12313$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Is there some benefit to putting carets in a file name? Other than > creating compatibility problems????? The issue here is that VMS doesn't *really* support funky names in ODS5. It has a kludge to support non standard characters by preceding them with a caret. so, on a mac, the file my.chocolate.bar when transfered as such to VMS will create myˆ.chocolate.bar in a VMS directory. I think NFS (if I can get it to work again without rebooting) translates it back to my.chocolate.bar when feeding the mac, but not FTP. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:49:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: <7K-dnfEmALIXlJTVnZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com> JF Mezei wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> Is there some benefit to putting carets in a file name? Other than >> creating compatibility problems????? > > The issue here is that VMS doesn't *really* support funky names in ODS5. > It has a kludge to support non standard characters by preceding them > with a caret. > > so, on a mac, the file my.chocolate.bar when transfered as such to VMS > will create myˆ.chocolate.bar in a VMS directory. > > I think NFS (if I can get it to work again without rebooting) translates > it back to my.chocolate.bar when feeding the mac, but not FTP. Whatever turns you on. MY_CHOCOLATE.BAR works without playing silly games with carats *or* ODS-5. Am I hopelessly old fashioned? DON'T ANSWER THAT!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:33:55 -0700 From: Marty Kuhrt Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: Marty Kuhrt > >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427887 > >> I'm not sure if this is the same issue, but I've noticed that Firefox >> doesn't see files with lowercase file name parts, either. It'll see >> TEST.TXT but not TEST.txt or test.txt. > > That's a different problem. My complaint was triggered by long names > on an ODS2 disk. I was assuming that it'd have troubles with the carets > on ODS5, but apparently it's significantly worse than that. > > I was hoping to generate some interest from someone who already has a > Mozilla/Firefox build environment set up, as that looked like a > career-sized project all by itself, which I was hoping that I could > avoid. (Well, of course I can avoid it, but I'd like to get the stuff > working properly with VMS, too. Everything's complicated.) The result was the same with Multinet 5.2, as well. If you want a real laff on the Mac, try using Safari to do ftp:// stuff. Firefox may be a bit odd, but Safari won't do it at all (at least in my case). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:01:07 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: <08041822010789_2020CE0A@antinode.org> From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > In article <08041807563198_2020CE0A@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > > Oh, really? So, the RFC expects the FTP client to do caret removal > > on the names supplied by the FTP server? This seems to me unlikely. > > Have you ever used a TCPIP FTP server with extended file names on an > > ODS5 disk? (Apparently not. It's lamer than you might think possible.) > > Why should the carets be removed? They are part of the file name. Not really. They're part of the internal representation of a file name with exotic characters (exotic by ODS2 standards, that is). alp $ pipe write sys$output "abcd" > d5:a.b.c.d alp $ dir d5:a.b.c.d Directory ALP$DKA100:[sms] a^.b^.c.d;1 Total of 1 file. (Actually, I believe that the internal-internal representation is optimized a bit to maximize confusion for QIO users.) > Oh, you want a^.b.c on VMS to become a.b.c on some other platform? > That's your problem, just like when we wanted A.FTN from RSX to > become A.FOR on VMS. Not really. I'd like "a.b.c.d" on VMS to appear as "a.b.c.d" in the FTP server listing. Failing that, as a fall-back, I'd like to be able to fetch "a^.b^.c.d", when _that_ appears in the FTP server listing. Did you try getting a TCPIP FTP server to _accept_ that caret-filled mess which you claim is the true VMS file name? You should. Then tell me how wonderfully consistent this mess is. Remember this question + comment? > Have you ever used a TCPIP FTP server with extended file names on an > ODS5 disk? (Apparently not. It's lamer than you might think possible.) That was an actual question, not a rhetorical question, but it did include a hint (too subtle, apparently) to _try_ some simple tasks involving ODS5 extended names v. a TCPIP FTP server. Actual experience can be more enlightening than prejudice-laden conjecture. From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > Is there some benefit to putting carets in a file name? Other than > creating compatibility problems????? It does let you specify a space without using a real space ("^_"), thus not splitting a command-line token. Otherwise, no, not really. I think that the ODS5 encoding scheme was a pretty good solution to the problem of expanding the character set without breaking everything. It did break some things, however, like the (lame) FTP server. (The latest version of MMS seems to be doing better, however.) From: JF Mezei > The issue here is that VMS doesn't *really* support funky names in ODS5. > It has a kludge to support non standard characters by preceding them > with a caret. Not in my opinion. As demonstrated above, you can use caret-free extended names in DCL, and many other places. (And you _must_ use them with the TCPIP FTP server.) There is a risk of seeing carets in some places, and proper programming can hide them where appropriate. The TCPIP FTP server fails to hide then when it should. > I think NFS (if I can get it to work again without rebooting) translates > it back to my.chocolate.bar when feeding the mac, but not FTP. Perhaps the NFS server is less defective than the FTP server. From: Marty Kuhrt > [...] If you want a real > laff on the Mac, try using Safari to do ftp:// stuff. Firefox may be a > bit odd, but Safari won't do it at all (at least in my case). Yes, Safari is worse. I think that it tries to do a "CWD /dev:[dir]", or some such nonsense, and then, when it gets a complaint back, it gives up. One might argue either way as to which is worse: Safari's thoroughly defective presentation of the data, or Mozilla's data-dependent variably defective presentation of the data. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:46:36 -0700 From: Marty Kuhrt Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <4807a187$0$7289$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, > JF Mezei writes: >> http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/04/16/ibm-launches-pilot-program-for-migrating-to-macs/ >> >> IBM had a pilot program to evaluate supporting Macintosh computers for >> its own staff. They are also looking towards becoming more multi-platform. >> >> This is interesting in light of the fact that IBM, having sold its PC >> business to Lenovo is no longer really tied to Microsoft. AKA: it >> doesn't need to kneel down in from of Bill Gates, and have a sacrificial >> offering to prove its loyalty to MS anymore. >> >> It would be a hoot if IBM started to port all its software to VMS >> despite HP's best efforts in the other direction :-) :-) > > What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? > The last two VMS gigs I ran across were for shops outsourced through IBM services. At a previous job I shared a data center with a company that was looking to outsource it's VMS services. IBM had a more comprehensive and lower bid than anyone. IBM supports VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:18:49 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <48094878$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Marty Kuhrt wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <4807a187$0$7289$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, >> JF Mezei writes: >>> It would be a hoot if IBM started to port all its software to VMS >>> despite HP's best efforts in the other direction :-) :-) >> >> What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? > > The last two VMS gigs I ran across were for shops outsourced through IBM > services. At a previous job I shared a data center with a company that > was looking to outsource it's VMS services. IBM had a more > comprehensive and lower bid than anyone. IBM supports VMS. IBM consultants would probably support any OS for $$$. But many IBM products WAS, DB2 etc. are not available for VMS. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:25:53 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <01b89554-e11f-47cd-9a32-a23966054820@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Apr 18, 7:46 pm, Marty Kuhrt wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article <4807a187$0$7289$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, > > JF Mezei writes: > >>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/04/16/ibm-launches-pilot-program-f... > > >> IBM had a pilot program to evaluate supporting Macintosh computers for > >> its own staff. They are also looking towards becoming more multi-platform. > > >> This is interesting in light of the fact that IBM, having sold its PC > >> business to Lenovo is no longer really tied to Microsoft. AKA: it > >> doesn't need to kneel down in from of Bill Gates, and have a sacrificial > >> offering to prove its loyalty to MS anymore. > > >> It would be a hoot if IBM started to port all its software to VMS > >> despite HP's best efforts in the other direction :-) :-) > > > What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? > > The last two VMS gigs I ran across were for shops outsourced through IBM > services. At a previous job I shared a data center with a company that > was looking to outsource it's VMS services. IBM had a more > comprehensive and lower bid than anyone. IBM supports VMS. Yet they supplanted many VMS systems with their AS/400's! Well, VAX/ VMS, at least. I personally witnessed one in action, and one of the AS/ 400 programmers said the AS/400 was known as the VAX killer. :-( AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:36:05 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <08041822360500_2020CE0A@antinode.org> From: AEF > Yet they supplanted many VMS systems with their AS/400's! Well, VAX/ > VMS, at least. I personally witnessed one in action, and one of the AS/ > 400 programmers said the AS/400 was known as the VAX killer. :-( I believe that the IBM 9370 was the original "VAX killer". My then-employer tried one out (a while ago, when we had some software development on big IBM systems, but no IBM hardware in-house). We got a couple of big racks full of stuff, which took a couple of well-dressed IBM CEs all day to set up. Our lone IBM-literate guy found it a reasonable machine if you wanted a small IBM mainframe, but it was still pretty pricey, so we ended up sending it back after the (free) trial period. I doubt that it killed many VAXes. The RS/6000 with AIX probably killed more of them than the 9370 ever did. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.218 ************************