INFO-VAX	Tue, 12 Feb 2008	Volume 2008 : Issue 85

   Contents:
Re: Cool Bananas!
Re: Cool Bananas!
Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Re: IA64 VMS installation DVD creation.
Re: Iffy DCL IF
Re: Iffy DCL IF
ODS5, /NAMES = AS_IS, LIBRARY, MMS v. me
one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2
Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2
Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2
Testing new rewired "cable adapters" for lights-out console use
Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving)
Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving)
Re: VMSINSTAL Message
Re: VMSINSTAL Message
Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Re: XP1000 and DEGPA-TA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:12:01 -0500
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: Cool Bananas!
Message-ID: <47b09e06$0$25459$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

Jean-François Piéronne wrote:

> F11 may not work (or work differently) on some browser, I don't know.

OS-X,. by default, intercepts a bunch of Fxx keys to do GUI stuff.

F11 is set to hide all windows and show the desktop.

System Preferences -> Keyboard & Mouse -> Keyboard shortcuts and you can
disable the trpping of F11 after which F11 will be sent to the application.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 2008 22:29:26 GMT
From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: Re: Cool Bananas!
Message-ID: <47b0cc45$0$7857$607ed4bc@cv.net>

In article <47b0745d$0$13661$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= <jf.pieronne@laposte.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <fop5dh$lov$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:
>>> Hi Jean-François,
>>>> http://vmspython.dyndns.org/anonymous/demo/demo2.htm
>>> That is the sexiest VMS-related demo I've seen in a long long time. Well
>>> done! (And not one LED or control-g in sight :-)
>> 
>> But when I hit F11 key as instructed, my windows disappear off the screen.
>> 
>> JF, perhaps you can find a way to express this in non-M$ specific words?
>> 
>> 
>
>The demo should work everywhere Flash run, and I know it has 
>successfully run on Windows, MAC-OS, Linux.
>
>F11 may not work (or work differently) on some browser, I don't know.
>
>F11 is just to display the demo full screen, it the key associate to 
>this action in your favorite browser.

F11 is one of the expose function on OSX.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:00:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com>
Subject: Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Message-ID: <2471f4f7-7f45-4024-8505-ff227ba06422@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>

On Feb 10, 6:34 pm, Tad Winters
<stafford.no.spam.winte...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over
> programming languages.  I'm after honest, technical answers.
>
> I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some custom
> software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO.  The custom
> forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL "include" files.
>
> They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage.  The
> system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the users
> and probably causes some customers to consider other suppliers.  The
> system has been tuned many times, without any appreciable improvement.
>
> I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since
> DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be Synergy
> DBL.  Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a show
> stopper.  They would be looking at more than $20,000 for Synergy DBL
> alone.
>
> I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a
> huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop
> something much less stable.  (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator
> running on bare metal.)
>
> Now to the meat of my question.  If a person was interested in moving
> code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what language would
> be the best choice?  Keep these details in mind:
> A runtime license cost isn't going to fly.
> The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed,
> relative and sequential files are used.)
> Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they would
> with DIBOL.
> The language would need to support "include" files.
>
> Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to convert.
> I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't hold me to
> it.
>
> The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported to
> the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I
> continued to generate correct code.
>
> A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and
> support applications, which I would port first.  I'd like to start down
> the correct road first.  The languages which I first thought would meet
> the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL.  This doesn't
> strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to choose a
> language which is also supported on Itanium.
>
> I await your wisdom.


Tad,

For porting, it depends on the style of code. If you want integrated
(non-custom) support for access to indexed and other files, you are
probably limited to BASIC, FORTRAN, and COBOL. It is not inherantly
difficult to access keyed files from C/C++, but it will be in the
nature of a non-integrated add-in (or in the case of C++, probably a
class).

Hoiwever, before I go deep into porting the code, I would invest some
effort to tuning the system. Having been involved in tuning many such
systems over the years, I always caution clients that performance
improvements can almost always be achieved with far less effort than
porting to a new language. Often, significant results can be achieved
with a relatively small scale consulting project (days to a week or
so). It is not possible to make blanket assurances, but that has been
my overwhelming experience. In any event, porting 300,000 lines of
code is going to be a non-trivial project, and the performance work is
less expensive by orders of magnitude (e.g., 1% - 5% of a conversion
project). [Disclosure: My firm does provide services in this area, as
well as tools development ].

Peak load performance problems are often relatively straightforward to
address, at far less cost.

Charon-VAX is also, if I recall correctly, available on OpenVMS-Alpha/
Itanium for VAX emulation, that may be another possibility (as would
the use of one of the freeware emulators).

I hope that the above is helpful. If I have been unclear, please let
me know.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:18:18 GMT
From: Tad Winters <stafford.no.spam.winters2@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Message-ID: <Xns9A4173009400Bstaffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11>

FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote in news:3f5126fa-c1ed-435d-a4f8-
abbaec939ead@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

> On Feb 11, 10:05 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> I have a question regarding this scheme that just occured to me.
>> If you have old applications that originated on a VAX and have
>> been VESTed to Alpha (and then, perhaps, AESTed to Itanium) does
>> this not leave you stuck keeping, maintaining and paying licensing
>> for a VAX as well in the event problems occur with the program or
>> some form of upgrade needs to be made to the application?
> 
> Honestly, after I posted that I realized a similar issue: the VAX
> license needed to run the DIBOL compiler might not be loadable on
> either Alpha or Integrity OpenVMS.  Worth trying, though.
> 
> Certainly, using VEST/AEST on any application for which you don't have
> the source code leaves you stuck at the version you're running, as far
> as upgrades.  In the case of the DIBOL compiler, though, I don't think
> that's a concern.  :-)
> 

VESTing the compiler itself?  Wouldn't it still create a VAX object file?

If VESTing the application, I'd plan on maintaining a little MicroVAX, 
like a 3100, for code changes.  For that matter, maybe just use a virtual 
VAX for compiling DIBOL code.  Where do I get the tools to VEST a 
program?  (I assume this must run on Alpha.)  And the VESTing tool is 
free, isn't it?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:18:31 +0100
From: Wilm Boerhout <w6OLD.PAINTboerhout@planet.nl>
Subject: Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Message-ID: <47b09f95$0$25480$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>

on 11-2-2008 20:00 Bob Gezelter wrote...
[snip]

> Charon-VAX is also, if I recall correctly, available on OpenVMS-Alpha/
> Itanium for VAX emulation, that may be another possibility (as would
> the use of one of the freeware emulators).

On Alpha, yes, Itanium, no. Not so spectacular performance improvement 
on readily available / cheap Alpha's though.

You cannot legally transfer your VMS licenses to SIMH or another 
freeware emulator.

-- 
Wilm Boerhout             |
Zwolle,                   | - 'My memory's fine!'
The Netherlands           | - 'But you keep forgetting your mistakes!'
remove OLD PAINT to reply | - 'Exactly!'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:07:00 -0800 (PST)
From: FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com>
Subject: Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Message-ID: <698d7395-c5ff-43fc-bda0-31c613c38fe1@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>

On Feb 11, 2:18=A0pm, Tad Winters
<stafford.no.spam.winte...@verizon.net> wrote:
> VESTing the compiler itself? =A0Wouldn't it still create a VAX object file=
?

Not necessarily.  Of course, I haven't tried this so it's all
theoretical and maybe it won't work at all.  However, I would expect
that if it did work the Alpha versions of shareable images the
compiler relied on would generate Alpha code.

On Feb 11, 2:18 pm, Tad Winters
<stafford.no.spam.winte...@verizon.net> wrote:
>=A0Where do I get the tools to VEST a
> program? =A0(I assume this must run on Alpha.) =A0And the VESTing tool is
> free, isn't it?

Yes, it runs on Alpha, and it's free from HP at this URL ...

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsva.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:34:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com>
Subject: Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Message-ID: <fa18b55f-2d90-4f1e-8c46-21a3be685fdb@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>

On Feb 11, 3:07 pm, FrankS <sapie...@noesys.com> wrote:
> On Feb 11, 2:18 pm, Tad Winters
>
> <stafford.no.spam.winte...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > VESTing the compiler itself?  Wouldn't it still create a VAX object file?
>
> Not necessarily.  Of course, I haven't tried this so it's all
> theoretical and maybe it won't work at all.  However, I would expect
> that if it did work the Alpha versions of shareable images the
> compiler relied on would generate Alpha code.
>
> On Feb 11, 2:18 pm, Tad Winters
>
> <stafford.no.spam.winte...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Where do I get the tools to VEST a
> > program?  (I assume this must run on Alpha.)  And the VESTing tool is
> > free, isn't it?
>
> Yes, it runs on Alpha, and it's free from HP at this URL ...
>
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsva.html

Tad,

Even though I am a great believer in the use of VEST and AEST as
tools, I do not think that I would recommend this path without a good
deal of study. Debugging problems in this environment (VESTed compiler
generating VAX code that is then VESTed and possibly AESTed to produce
the actual executable image) would be a challenge. I would more look
to using VEST/AEST as I illustrated in my "Strategies for Migrating
from Alpha and VAX systems to HP Integrity Servers on OpenVMS",
accessible from http://www.rlgsc.com/publications/vmstechjournal/migrationstrategies.html
.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:30:44 -0500
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>
Subject: Re: DIBOL to <different language>
Message-ID: <47b0da9d$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <cbe43c7c-e1b3-49b0-8941-c57e1e77f7f8@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> 	Hein RMS van den Heuvel <heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com> writes:
>> Pascal... Clean language, but how many programmers are available out
>> there?
> 
> At least one.

Pascal was a very widely used language for learning
programming in the golden VAX days. I think a lot
of VMS people will know Pascal. It may be a bit rusty
for some, but some say that it is like driving a bicycle.

Arne

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:35:32 -0500
From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: IA64 VMS installation DVD creation.
Message-ID: <8660a3a10802111535q1c093f15t6bc00f680d25a4e4@mail.gmail.com>

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On Jan 12, 2008 6:38 PM, <VAXman-@sendspamhere.org> wrote:

> In article <BA8ij.296892$Fc.208299@attbi_s21>, "John E. Malmberg" <
> wb8tyw@qsl.network> writes:
> >
> >
> >Steven M. Schweda wrote:
> >>    Let's imagine that I have a file named I64083.BCK-GZ, which can be
> >> expanded into an image BACKUP save set of what looks like a real IA64
> >> VMS installation DVD.  Let us further imagine that I'm doing all this
> >> work on an Alpha system.
> >
> >Your save set may be missing the boot blocks of the real IA64 VMS
> >installation DVD.
> >
> >The real IA64 VMS installation DVD is a dual format EL-Torito bootable
> >CD-ROM.  The IA64 boot blocks are in the ISO-9960 section.
> >
> >These sectors were located in the badblocks.sys file on the boot volume,
> >unless something has been changed.  While it was convenient to use the
> >badblocks.sys file to keep VMS from using them, it is possible that a
> >different method of tracking them might be used in the future.
> >
> >Backup/physical is needed to copy a IA64 bootable DVD.
> >
> >Backup/image skips the boot sectors of the dual format DVD.
> >
> >Those sectors are not installed on a magnetic disk.
> >
> >>    If I were to create an LD container of an appropriate size, and
> >> restore (BACKUP /IMAGE) this save set onto the corresponding LD device,
> >> should I be able to use the resulting LD container to make a working
> >> installation DVD, or would the LD device first need to be fiddled using
> >> some exotic SET BOOTBLOCK command (which is, of course, "Valid on I64
> >> systems only.")?
> >
> >While the EFI console only officially supports booting Optical Media in
> >the El-torito format, it has been known to boot other formats.
> >
> >The block size is different than on a magnetic disk, so the if you are
> >setting the boot block on a Logical disk image that you intend to burn
> >on a CD, you have to take that into account.
> >
> >>    Or (and especially if the answer to that last one was "yes"), does
> >> anyone have an actual IA64 DVD image lying about where I could stumble
> >> across it?  (If IA64 fiddling is needed, I suppose that I could push
> >> everything up to an IA64 TestDrive system, fiddle as needed, and then
> >> pull the fiddled result back, but this seems less efficient than it
> >> might be.  And what would the proper SET BOOTBLOCK command be?)
> >
> >You need to find out the exact ritual for generating a DVD from the
> >saveset that you have.
> >
> >>    Naturally, a VMS V8.3-1 kit would be preferred over the plain-old
> >> V8.3 kit which I have, so if anyone knows the secret file name for such
> >> a kit on the secret FTP server (or has a DVD image of that one), so
> much
> >> the better.
> >>
> >>    It's not actually urgent, but there is a ZX2000 here just crying out
> >> for a good reason to run.
> >
> >You are best off getting a image copy of the DVD, or to do a network
> >install.
> >
> >Sorry, that I can not be more precise at this time, but I have not
> >worked with creating boot DVDs for IA64 for a couple of years.
>
> OK.  I've gotten actual IA64 DVD media but wouldn't it behoove HP to have
> a DVD image that could be downloaded and burned?  I'd be happy if I could
> download the V8.3+n versions of OpenVMS IA64 if I could use Toast to burn
> the DVD.  A copy of the disk artwork on-line too so I could print a label
> for the DVD and then place in my archives.  It seem to me this would save
> on DVD production and shipment for HP.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker
> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
>
>  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
>
> http://tmesis.com/drat.html
>

I'd like to think that buying those DVDs helps keep good people in the
backline (and I almost said ZKO) but I think you get my drift.

WWWebb, who's working on a largish AXP => I64 migration project for the
foreseeable future.

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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jan 12, 2008 6:38 PM,  &lt;<a href="mailto:VAXman-@sendspamhere.org">VAXman-@sendspamhere.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">In article &lt;BA8ij.296892$Fc.208299@attbi_s21&gt;, &quot;John E. Malmberg&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network">wb8tyw@qsl.network</a>&gt; writes:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Steven M. Schweda wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Let&#39;s imagine that I have a file named I64083.BCK-GZ, which can be<br>&gt;&gt; expanded into an image BACKUP save set of what looks like a real IA64<br>&gt;&gt; VMS installation DVD. &nbsp;Let us further imagine that I&#39;m doing all this<br>
&gt;&gt; work on an Alpha system.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Your save set may be missing the boot blocks of the real IA64 VMS<br>&gt;installation DVD.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;The real IA64 VMS installation DVD is a dual format EL-Torito bootable<br>
&gt;CD-ROM. &nbsp;The IA64 boot blocks are in the ISO-9960 section.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;These sectors were located in the badblocks.sys file on the boot volume,<br>&gt;unless something has been changed. &nbsp;While it was convenient to use the<br>
&gt;badblocks.sys file to keep VMS from using them, it is possible that a<br>&gt;different method of tracking them might be used in the future.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Backup/physical is needed to copy a IA64 bootable DVD.<br>&gt;<br>
&gt;Backup/image skips the boot sectors of the dual format DVD.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Those sectors are not installed on a magnetic disk.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;If I were to create an LD container of an appropriate size, and<br>
&gt;&gt; restore (BACKUP /IMAGE) this save set onto the corresponding LD device,<br>&gt;&gt; should I be able to use the resulting LD container to make a working<br>&gt;&gt; installation DVD, or would the LD device first need to be fiddled using<br>
&gt;&gt; some exotic SET BOOTBLOCK command (which is, of course, &quot;Valid on I64<br>&gt;&gt; systems only.&quot;)?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;While the EFI console only officially supports booting Optical Media in<br>&gt;the El-torito format, it has been known to boot other formats.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;The block size is different than on a magnetic disk, so the if you are<br>&gt;setting the boot block on a Logical disk image that you intend to burn<br>&gt;on a CD, you have to take that into account.<br>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Or (and especially if the answer to that last one was &quot;yes&quot;), does<br>&gt;&gt; anyone have an actual IA64 DVD image lying about where I could stumble<br>&gt;&gt; across it? &nbsp;(If IA64 fiddling is needed, I suppose that I could push<br>
&gt;&gt; everything up to an IA64 TestDrive system, fiddle as needed, and then<br>&gt;&gt; pull the fiddled result back, but this seems less efficient than it<br>&gt;&gt; might be. &nbsp;And what would the proper SET BOOTBLOCK command be?)<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;You need to find out the exact ritual for generating a DVD from the<br>&gt;saveset that you have.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Naturally, a VMS V8.3-1 kit would be preferred over the plain-old<br>&gt;&gt; V8.3 kit which I have, so if anyone knows the secret file name for such<br>
&gt;&gt; a kit on the secret FTP server (or has a DVD image of that one), so much<br>&gt;&gt; the better.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;It&#39;s not actually urgent, but there is a ZX2000 here just crying out<br>&gt;&gt; for a good reason to run.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;You are best off getting a image copy of the DVD, or to do a network<br>&gt;install.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Sorry, that I can not be more precise at this time, but I have not<br>&gt;worked with creating boot DVDs for IA64 for a couple of years.<br>
<br></div></div>OK. &nbsp;I&#39;ve gotten actual IA64 DVD media but wouldn&#39;t it behoove HP to have<br>a DVD image that could be downloaded and burned? &nbsp;I&#39;d be happy if I could<br>download the V8.3+n versions of OpenVMS IA64 if I could use Toast to burn<br>
the DVD. &nbsp;A copy of the disk artwork on-line too so I could print a label<br>for the DVD and then place in my archives. &nbsp;It seem to me this would save<br>on DVD production and shipment for HP.<br><font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker &nbsp; VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM<br><br> &nbsp;&quot;Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn&#39;t it?&quot;<br><br><a href="http://tmesis.com/drat.html" target="_blank">http://tmesis.com/drat.html</a><br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>I&#39;d like to think that buying those DVDs helps keep good people in the backline (and I almost said ZKO) but I think you get my drift.<br><br>WWWebb, who&#39;s working on a largish AXP =&gt; I64 migration project for the foreseeable future.<br>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:40:30 GMT
From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com>
Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802111434200.7436@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, Graham Burley wrote:

> $!TEST.COM
> $ if "''p1'" .eqs. ""
>  .and. "''p2'" .nes. ""
> $ then write sys$output "true"
> $ endif
> $ exit
>
> $ @test
> true
>
> Er, ok, I forgot the continuation "-" at the end of line 2, but why
> no error for line 3?

> It seems that DCL silently eats lines following an IF until it finds 
> a line with a leading $.

Not at all.  The line without the $ is a data line to the IF 
statement.  The fact that IF does not read its data lines is 
irrelevant.  You could have previously

   $ IF == "TYPE SYS$INPUT !"

or something else equally bizarre.  Should DCL do what you say, or 
what it thinks you might mean?

> is this a well known feature or a long standing bug?

It's a feature.  The bug is in your code.

IMO


-- 

Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (780)438-9343 (voice)
Edmonton                         (780)437-3367 (FAX)
                                  http://gmcl.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:09:36 -0500
From: norm.raphael@metso.com
Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF
Message-ID: <OF87C61C9D.74E3A80E-ON852573EC.00786032-852573EC.0079BC7A@metso.com>

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
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Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> wrote on 02/11/2008 04:40:30 PM:

> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, Graham Burley wrote:
> 
> > $!TEST.COM
> > $ if "''p1'" .eqs. ""
> >  .and. "''p2'" .nes. ""
> > $ then write sys$output "true"
> > $ endif
> > $ exit
> >
> > $ @test
> > true
> >
> > Er, ok, I forgot the continuation "-" at the end of line 2, but why
> > no error for line 3?
> 
> > It seems that DCL silently eats lines following an IF until it finds 
> > a line with a leading $.
> 
> Not at all.  The line without the $ is a data line to the IF 
> statement.  The fact that IF does not read its data lines is 
> irrelevant.  You could have previously
> 
>    $ IF == "TYPE SYS$INPUT !"
> 
> or something else equally bizarre.  Should DCL do what you say, or 
> what it thinks you might mean?
> 

I fail to understand what you're saying here.

In your case:

@test.com
$!TEST.COM
$ IF == "TYPE SYS$INPUT !"
$ if "" .eqs. ""
and. "''p2'" .nes. ""
and. "''p2'" .nes. ""
$ then write sys$output "true"
%DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data 
inconsistency
$
Things get worse, not better.

Data s/b set off with $DECK/$EOD pairs if it does not want to be parsed.

Also DCL_CHECK says you really shouldn't try that with "IF".

$ @dcl_check test.com

-*- Charlie Hammond's unsupported DCL checker (Version V3.4) -*-
Checking file TEST.COM;2
11-FEB-2008 17:02:48.71

Checking for DCL_CHECK$ logicals...
  "DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_BL" = "TRUE"
  "DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_CCN" = "TRUE"
  "DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_CLD" = "TRUE"
  "DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_LFF" = "TRUE"
  "DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_LND" = "TRUE"
  "DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_LOD" = "TRUE"

Starting Pass 1 -- 11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.08 ...
Starting Pass 2 -- 11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.40 ...
Starting Pass 3 -- 11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.45 ...

Procedure contains:      7 total lines
                         6 code lines (including 0 lines (0%) w/ comments)
                         0 additional continuation lines
                         0 lines w/i $DECK/$EOD pairs
                         1 comment only lines (16% of code lines)
                         0 blank lines
                         3 diagnostics

 LINE  CODE  --DIAGNOSTIC MESSAGE--

    2  EFB-S  "=" found between IF and THEN
    2  INT-S  IF statement not terminated
    3  TRH-S  THEN statement required here

-*- END OF LISTING -*-   11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.94

I still cannot see an argument for leaving this broken, but that's not 
the point.  The point is to let OpenVMS support make the call before 
we debate all possible responses.

$
> > is this a well known feature or a long standing bug?
> 
> It's a feature.  The bug is in your code.

Well, diagnostics are supposed to help locate bugs...and we all know 
that one man's bug is another man's feature.
[No sexism intended.]

> 
> IMO
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
> G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (780)438-9343 (voice)
> Edmonton                         (780)437-3367 (FAX)
>                                   http://gmcl.com/
> 

--=_alternative 0079BC78852573EC_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2><tt>Rob Brown &lt;mylastname@gmcl.com&gt; wrote on 02/11/2008
04:40:30 PM:<br>
<br>
&gt; On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, Graham Burley wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; $!TEST.COM<br>
&gt; &gt; $ if &quot;''p1'&quot; .eqs. &quot;&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;.and. &quot;''p2'&quot; .nes. &quot;&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; $ then write sys$output &quot;true&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; $ endif<br>
&gt; &gt; $ exit<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; $ @test<br>
&gt; &gt; true<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Er, ok, I forgot the continuation &quot;-&quot; at the end of
line 2, but why<br>
&gt; &gt; no error for line 3?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; It seems that DCL silently eats lines following an IF until it
finds <br>
&gt; &gt; a line with a leading $.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Not at all. &nbsp;The line without the $ is a data line to the IF
<br>
&gt; statement. &nbsp;The fact that IF does not read its data lines is
<br>
&gt; irrelevant. &nbsp;You could have previously<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;$ IF == &quot;TYPE SYS$INPUT !&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; or something else equally bizarre. &nbsp;Should DCL do what you say,
or <br>
&gt; what it thinks you might mean?<br>
&gt; </tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>I fail to understand what you're saying here.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>In your case:</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>@test.com</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>$!TEST.COM</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>$ IF == &quot;TYPE SYS$INPUT !&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>$ if &quot;&quot; .eqs. &quot;&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>.and. &quot;''p2'&quot; .nes. &quot;&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>.and. &quot;''p2'&quot; .nes. &quot;&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>$ then write sys$output &quot;true&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>%DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure
or data inconsistency<br>
$</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Things get worse, not better.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Data s/b set off with $DECK/$EOD pairs if it does
not want to be parsed.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Also DCL_CHECK says you really shouldn't try that
with &quot;IF&quot;.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>$ @dcl_check test.com</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>-*- Charlie Hammond's unsupported DCL checker (Version
V3.4) -*-</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Checking file TEST.COM;2</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>11-FEB-2008 17:02:48.71</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Checking for DCL_CHECK$ logicals...</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &quot;DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_BL&quot; = &quot;TRUE&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &quot;DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_CCN&quot; = &quot;TRUE&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &quot;DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_CLD&quot; = &quot;TRUE&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &quot;DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_LFF&quot; = &quot;TRUE&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &quot;DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_LND&quot; = &quot;TRUE&quot;</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &quot;DCL_CHECK$SUPPRESS_LOD&quot; = &quot;TRUE&quot;</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Starting Pass 1 -- 11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.08 ...</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Starting Pass 2 -- 11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.40 ...</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Starting Pass 3 -- 11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.45 ...</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Procedure contains: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;7 total lines</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;6 code lines (including 0 lines (0%)
w/ comments)</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0 additional continuation lines</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0 lines w/i $DECK/$EOD pairs</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1 comment only lines (16% of code lines)</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0 blank lines</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;3 diagnostics</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp;LINE &nbsp;CODE &nbsp;--DIAGNOSTIC MESSAGE--</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 &nbsp;EFB-S &nbsp;&quot;=&quot; found
between IF and THEN</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 &nbsp;INT-S &nbsp;IF statement not
terminated</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; 3 &nbsp;TRH-S &nbsp;THEN statement required
here</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>-*- END OF LISTING -*- &nbsp; 11-FEB-2008 17:02:49.94</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>I still cannot see an argument for leaving this broken,
but that's not </tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>the point. &nbsp;The point is to let OpenVMS support
make the call before </tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>we debate all possible responses.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>$</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&gt; &gt; is this a well known feature or a long standing
bug?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It's a feature. &nbsp;The bug is in your code.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Well, diagnostics are supposed to help locate bugs...and
we all know </tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>that one man's bug is another man's feature.</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>[No sexism intended.]</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; IMO<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Rob Brown &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m<br>
&gt; G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(780)438-9343 (voice)<br>
&gt; Edmonton &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (780)437-3367 (FAX)<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; http://gmcl.com/<br>
&gt; <br>
</tt></font>
--=_alternative 0079BC78852573EC_=--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:47:24 -0600 (CST)
From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)
Subject: ODS5, /NAMES = AS_IS, LIBRARY, MMS v. me
Message-ID: <08021117472466_2062A39A@antinode.org>

   A long, rambling complaint about the C compiler, the librarian, and
MMS follows.

   In recent years, I've ported some pieces of UNIX-oriented freeware to
VMS.  Generally, I've done the work on an ODS2 file system, so, if the
results are taken back to a non-VMS system, the altered file names must
be restored to their original (pre-ODS2) mixed-case, multi-dot forms,
which is an annoying extra processing step.

   With the advent of some ODS5-aware programs, namely, MMS V3.8-2
(DECset 12.8 ECO1), and UnZip 6.0 and Zip 3.0, I thought that it might
be productive to re-work one of these projects on an ODS5 disk, where
the result should be directly usable on a non-VMS system.  Ideally, one
Zip kit would be usable on VMS (either ODS2 or ODS5) and UNIX.  This
seems to be harder than I expected, with problems generally related to
ODS5, /NAMES = AS_IS, object libraries, and MMS.

   It appears that CC /NAMES = AS_IS names an object module according to
the name of the source file, preserving its case.  For example (on an
ODS5 disk):

ALP $ cc /vers
HP C V7.3-009 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2

ALP $ type lower.c
int func_lower( void) { return 1; }

ALP $ type UPPER.C
int func_upper( void) { return 1; }

ALP $ cc /names = as_is LOWER   ! The file name, not the command,
ALP $ cc /names = as_is upper   ! determines the result, as seen below.

ALP $ pipe anal /obje LOWER.OBJ | sear sys$input "module name"
        module name: "lower"

ALP $ pipe anal /obje UPPER.OBJ | sear sys$input "module name"
        module name: "UPPER"


   I'm open to a clever suggestion, but I see no practical way to change
this lower-case module name to an (ODS2-compatible) upper-case module
name.  (Adding a "#pragma module" directive to every source file is not
practical.  A clever suggestion here would obviate the remainder of this
complaint, however.)

   This dependence of module names on file name case adds difficulty
also when linking using "library-name/INCLUDE=(module-name[,...])",
because the module names depend on the underlying file system.  Sensing
the file system type inside the MMS description file does not look
simple, and while I'm always open to a clever suggestion, having to deal
with two sets of module dependencies, depending on the file system,
sounds like a lot of extra work.

   Non-upper-case library module names still seem to bewilder MMS, which
seems to work only with upper-case module names.  You can tell it things
like:

      library.olb : library.olb(lower=lower.OBJ, UPPER=UPPER.OBJ)
             @ write sys$output " Done."

but the result for a lower-case module name involves a GWKACTNOUPD
warning.  In the old days, it worked this way:

alp $ mms /iden
%MMS-I-IDENT, MMS V3.5 © 2003 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P.

ALP $ mms

If "''F$Search("LIBRARY.OLB")'" .EQS. "" Then LIBRARY/Create LIBRARY.OLB
LIBRARY/REPLACE LIBRARY.OLB LOWER.OBJ
%MMS-W-GWKACTNOUPD, Actions didn't update LIBRARY.OLB(LOWER=LOWER.OBJ)

If "''F$Search("LIBRARY.OLB")'" .EQS. "" Then LIBRARY/Create LIBRARY.OLB
LIBRARY/REPLACE LIBRARY.OLB UPPER.OBJ
 Done.

This works, after a fashion, but it's sub-optimal, because MMS is never
satisfied that the non-upper-case library modules are up-to-date:

ALP $ mms

If "''F$Search("LIBRARY.OLB")'" .EQS. "" Then LIBRARY/Create LIBRARY.OLB
LIBRARY/REPLACE LIBRARY.OLB LOWER.OBJ
%MMS-W-GWKACTNOUPD, Actions didn't update LIBRARY.OLB(LOWER=LOWER.OBJ)

 Done.

(Repeat as desired.)


   Nowadays, it's essentially similar:

IT $ cc /vers
HP C V7.3-018 on OpenVMS IA64 V8.3-1H1

IT $ mms /iden
%MMS-I-IDENT, MMS V3.8-2 © Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L
P.

IT $ cc /names = as_is LOWER
IT $ cc /names = as_is upper

IT $ pipe anal /obje LOWER.OBJ | sear sys$input "module name"
    Module name:                                "lower"

IT $ pipe anal /obje UPPER.OBJ | sear sys$input "module name"
    Module name:                                "UPPER"

IT $ mms

If "''F$Search("LIBRARY.OLB")'" .EQS. "" Then LIBRARY/Create LIBRARY.OLB
LIBRARY/REPLACE LIBRARY.OLB LOWER.OBJ
%MMS-W-GWKACTNOUPD, Actions didn't update LIBRARY.OLB(LOWER=LOWER.OBJ)

If "''F$Search("LIBRARY.OLB")'" .EQS. "" Then LIBRARY/Create LIBRARY.OLB
LIBRARY/REPLACE LIBRARY.OLB UPPER.OBJ
 Done.

IT $ mms

If "''F$Search("LIBRARY.OLB")'" .EQS. "" Then LIBRARY/Create LIBRARY.OLB
LIBRARY/REPLACE LIBRARY.OLB LOWER.OBJ
%MMS-W-GWKACTNOUPD, Actions didn't update LIBRARY.OLB(LOWER=LOWER.OBJ)

 Done.


   One potential solution would be to create an object library which
used only upper-case module names.  The apparently promising "LIBRARY
/CREATE = CASE_SENSITIVE: NO" disappoints.  According to the "HP OpenVMS
Command Definition, Librarian, and Message Utilities Manual":

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/6100/6100pro_005.html#char_case_lbr

      2.3 Character Case of Library Keys
    [...]
          The CASE_SENSITIVE option works only for macro and text libraries.
          If you try to use it for other library types, you will get an
          error message and the library creation operation will abort (no
          library is created).
    [...]

In fact, there is no error message, and the library is created, but
there's no difference in the result.

   I seem to be out of clever ideas which would let this kind of thing
work as I'd like.  The best/simplest way out would seem to be to get the
compiler to emit an upper-case module name (without having to alter the
source file), but I don't see how.  Failing that, getting the librarian
to up-case the module names would seem helpful, but I don't see how to
do that, either.

   Clever (non-ugly) ideas would be appreciated.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org
   382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818
   Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 2008 02:47:20 GMT
From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG
Subject: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Message-ID: <47b108b8$0$25041$607ed4bc@cv.net>

It's been 8 years since one of my MicroVAXes made the news.

http://tmesis.com/microvax.html

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
           
  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 

http://tmesis.com/drat.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:29:03 -0500
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Message-ID: <47b11287$0$10314$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> It's been 8 years since one of my MicroVAXes made the news.
> 
> http://tmesis.com/microvax.html


Mr Vaxman,
In my distinct universe, your link redirects to some APP.COM article
about bowling. Didn't see (or understand) a reference to a microvax.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:38:08 -0500
From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Message-ID: <7dd80f60802111938u6d4cb156qa3ec0504a2f89568@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 11, 2008 10:29 PM, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > It's been 8 years since one of my MicroVAXes made the news.
> >
> > http://tmesis.com/microvax.html
>
>
> Mr Vaxman,
> In my distinct universe, your link redirects to some APP.COM article
> about bowling. Didn't see (or understand) a reference to a microvax.
>

I believe he meant one of his kids -- at least that's how I
interpreted his post once I read the article.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:48:09 -0500
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Message-ID: <47b11893$0$22055$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

Ken Robinson wrote:

> I believe he meant one of his kids -- at least that's how I
> interpreted his post once I read the article.


Ah ! I keep forgeting Mr VAXman has an alias name of Schenkenbergeh :-)
(But shouldn't it be Schenkenberger ?????)

Now I get the article... :-) :-)

Congratulatiosn on Mr VAXmans's microvax scoring in a baseball game !

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:06:43 -0500
From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: one of my MicroVAX in the news...
Message-ID: <7dd80f60802112006p7ec28eb5m7e21a1fcae5631e2@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 11, 2008 10:48 PM, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Ken Robinson wrote:
>
> > I believe he meant one of his kids -- at least that's how I
> > interpreted his post once I read the article.
>
>
> Ah ! I keep forgeting Mr VAXman has an alias name of Schenkenbergeh :-)
> (But shouldn't it be Schenkenberger ?????)
>
> Now I get the article... :-) :-)
>
> Congratulatiosn on Mr VAXmans's microvax scoring in a baseball game !

It wasn't baseball, it was bowling... (10 pin)

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:56:58 GMT
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?=
Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2
Message-ID: <_o4sj.3758$R_4.2775@newsb.telia.net>

Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote:
> In article <qrVrj.14699$EZ3.10630@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> writes:
>> Would people be interested in these new features?  I see that 
>> madgoat.com no longer exists.  What would the authors think of me
>> distributing my changes?
> 
> Matt (the author) has made MX V5 (know, the one with Anti-SPAM) freeware now.
> 
> Why not take it, and improve it (for all of us)
> 

Is the free V5 what is called "V6" ?

Jan-Erik.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:29:07 -0800
From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>
Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2
Message-ID: <e5asj.418$fX7.362@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com>

Joseph Huber wrote:
> Vance Haemmerle wrote:
> 
>> I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the
>> latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications.
>> Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2?
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> Would people be interested in these new features?  I see that 
>> madgoat.com no longer exists.  What would the authors think of me
>> distributing my changes?
>>
>> I also found a bug in compiling MX on VAX with the BLISS compiler.
>> I had to add the option "/SYNTAX_LEVEL=2" to BFLAGS in DESCRIP.MMS
>> for VAX so that the alias lines compiled without error.
> 
> 
> Just a coincidence (or a near miss ?):
> MX 6 is now open source, see
>  http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=08/02/05/9642981
> and
> 
> http://forums12.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1190006 
> 
> 
> 

  Thanks for pointing me to this, I missed it.  The last time I
checked madgoat.com, a few weeks ago, it was still "under construction"
and  site of the former Madgoat Software.

  At least I was using my changes for the last 7 months.
My SMTP server is on a VAX and I don't think MX 6 supports VAX.

--
Vance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 05:30:45 GMT
From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>
Subject: Re: SPAM detection for freeware MX 4.2
Message-ID: <9aasj.11034$Ej5.3331@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <qrVrj.14699$EZ3.10630@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> writes:
> 
>>I've been using MX 4.2 for almost a decade, with the
>>latest patches and the Anti-open relay modifications.
>>Is there anyone else out there still using MX 4.2?
>>
>>Last summer SPAM seemed to grow enormously, for me
>>up to about 200-300 SPAM messages a day.  I used the
>>MX_SMTP_SERVER_DEBUG variable and looked at the traffic.
>>Most of the SPAM messages could be easily detected
>>by bad HELO hostnames (e.g. localhost or my own
>>domain or host or IP) and invalid usernames.  Some
>>usernames in SPAM messges were actually usenet message
>>IDs that I could even find in the original usenet post
>>in Google Groups.
> 
> 
> I've notice a *marked* increase in SPAM since the holidays.  Probably all
> of those new _V_isual _I_nterface _S_imilar _T_o _A_pple boxes foisted on
> the hapless as holiday presents without knowledge of how to properly sec-
> ure them prior to putting them on the internet.
> 
> Regardless, if you visit http://www.MadGoat.com you will see that Matt has
> put the sources up for MX 6.0 and other MagGoat products.  This may help
> you with your present SPAM issues.
> 
> 

  Thanks for the pointer.  My changes to the SMTP_SERVER for
MX V4.2 have been working pretty well over the last 7 months
and I wanted to see if anyone wanted them.  I guess the
preferred option for those on Itanium or Alpha would be MX 6.

--
Vance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:13:33 -0800 (PST)
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Testing new rewired "cable adapters" for lights-out console use
Message-ID: <40d289c1-9947-45a9-8162-d238784a79b2@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>

Maybe this is a dumb question, but at least it's on topic!!!

We're moving our servers and such to a new data center in a new
building. My "manager" wants to go "lights-out" so I need a better
terminal server. The old terminal server (a MOXA CN 2100) has the
problem that power-ups and power-downs cause it to emit break signals,
so I never leave cables plugged into any VAX systems when I'm done
with console sessions. But with the lights-out scneario, I need
something better.

So I have a new terminal server lined up: a Cisco 2610. The Cisco
doesn't have the power-cycle/break problem, but the cables need to be
wired differently! (Why doesn't everyone use the same wiring scheme?)
So a member of the network group was kind enough to wire up some cable
adapters (MMJ to RJ45) (I now owe hum lunch!). I tested them by
logging in on the console port, running MONITOR SYSTEM, and running
the STAR TREK and TWILIGHT ZONE animations. All these things work. Is
there anything else I need to do to be sure the new pin-out
arrangement (or wiring scheme or whatever it's called) of these "cable
adapters" is correct?

AEF

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:00:56 +0800
From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>
Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving)
Message-ID: <foqgvf$pjc$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>

Hi again,

> Hmmm.  I better clarify this as well.  AIUI, it's back-end glue.  You
> need to roll-your-own back-end.

I'd put it this way, you need to supply the application-specific logic, the
business rules. Everything else is done for you!

For an example of *all* of the code reqd to build a Tier3 Server Application
please see: -
http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_uars.cob

For one that participates in an ACID-proof 2PC between VMS/Rdb/DECdtm and
W2K/SQL Server/MTSDTC please see: -

http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_tip.cob
http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_uars.cob
http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/build_tip_demo.com

Please also refer to hotTIP in Chpt 7 of the Tier3 Client/Server Development
manual for more. (Or why not let me send you a hobbyist's version of the kit
and you can go crazy for yourself?)

In the mean time don't forget: -

http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html

Username: TIER3_DEMO
Password: QUEUE

Enter "*" for the Queue Name and then hit the "Get info" button. Click on
the select-list header for sorting or one of the rows for drill-down. (All
of the html/javascript is also there)

Cheers Richard Maher

"Mark Daniel" <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au> wrote in message
news:13r06oakqubquf4@corp.supernews.com...
> Mark Daniel wrote:
> > Richard Maher wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Mark,
> >>
> >>
> >>> Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight.  Not trying to teach you how to suck
> >>> eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET
> >>> Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3
> >>> offers?  Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than
> >>> Java.  There are also open-source compatibility environments available
> >>> and in-development.  And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is
> >>> supported on Win32?"  Just my AU$0.05 FWIW.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Now I'm dissappointed :-( If someone with your abilities, attention to
> >> detail, and seeming fathomless desire to read anything and everything,
> >> cannot understand one of the basic tenets of the Tier3 architecture
> >> then the
> >> documentation must be in a sorry shape indeeed. Please (re)read
> >> chapter 2 in
> >> the Tier3 Client/Server Development manual
> >> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/tier3_031.pdf and get back to me.
I
> >> think the key words are *No client-specific software required!*.
> >
> >
> > I think I understand that Tier3 is back-end only :-)  All you need is a
>
> Hmmm.  I better clarify this as well.  AIUI, it's back-end glue.  You
> need to roll-your-own back-end.
>
> > network connection (TCP/IP, IPsec-ed preferably (not TLS), or DECnet)
> > and some front-end, roll-your-own glue.  My suggestion, obviously
> > clumsily put, was that providing a .NET Framework equivalent to the Java
> > applet(s?) you have put up, would have reached a *larger* audience.  "Is
> > it supported on Win32?  Of course!  Look ..."
> >
> >> If you want to use .NET then go crazy! Anyone, and everyone, can talk
to
> >> Tier3 application servers using standard TCP/IP Sockets (or DECnet
> >> interface) with whatever tools they require or desire. ActiveX
> >> controls? I
> >> love it! - Java Sockets? Can't get enough of it! C+ BSD Sockets? Mad
> >> for it!
> >> VMS System Services? I'm over the moon!
> >>
> >> I ( with heaps of help from the likes of the very talented Bojan
> >> Nemec's and
> >> Arne's of the world) provided a Java Applet example because I thought
it
> >> might be useful for VMS sites to be able to automatically distribute
> >> their
> >> client GUI application over the web at the click of a button. No more
> >> cumbersome client-software rollouts and upgrades. (As well as the usual
> >> Tier3 benefits of complete integration with the VMS security model,
> >> transparent multi-threading, and TP load-balancing) Silly me, hey?
> >>
> >> Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see
Adobe
> >> ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no
> >> problem
> >> with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find
> >> in the
> >> t2$examples directory.
> >>
> >> I *really, really, really* want to provide an Asynchronous Socket
client
> >> example using JSObject (maybe tick over a stock-price, or perhaps an
> >> OPCOM
> >> message) and I *really, really, really* want to incorporate the
Flex-Ajax
> >> Bridge to deliver Flex Charting examples, but with absolutely
bugger-all
> >> help from HP/VMS (as usual) it's having to go on the back-burner as I
am
> >> fortunate enough to be involved with a Linux/Java/SOAP development
> >> that with
> >> be talking to one of the main travel CRSs. (And of  course an IA64
> >> version
> >> if HP would sell me an Itanium box at the same price they are forcing
> >> them
> >> on others)
> >>
> >> Anyway, gotta go. . .
> >>
> >> Cheers Richard Maher
> >>
> >> PS. WRT Silverlight, please search this group for why I (FWIW) think
> >> it is
> >> definitely *not* the way to go. Microsoft for one (and I'm sure there's
> >> more) know that HTTP is a poorly performing, insecure, piece of shit
> >> when it
> >> comes to an application middleware protocol, and now with
> >> Silverlight's "I
> >> can't believe it's not butter (or AJAX in this case)" perhaps they'll
be
> >> able to deliver a high-performance propritary solution under the covers
> >> after the initial handshake.
> >>
> >> On Jan 12, 12:07 pm, Mark Daniel <mark.dan...@vsm.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Richard Maher wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Mark,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Hmmm. Perhaps
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>  Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> or
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>  Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit  -  T3SIT
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and
> >>>>> leave VMS
> >>>>> an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end up
> >>>>> finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> My God, I'm transparent! How long has this been going on?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Look, at the end of the day, I can't believe I'm having to defend the
> >>>> concept of "logging-on" to some people! Or the fact that having a 1:M
> >>>> relationship between Application Server Connections and Messages
> >>
> >>
> >> Exchanged
> >>
> >>>> is also a good thing. (Here's an idea for an additional stats field
for
> >>>> WASD; "HTTP 1.1 requests per connection".
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   HTTPd ...uma.es:80
> >>>   Server Statistics    (HTTPe:80)
> >>>   Saturday, 12-JAN-2008 03:59:50
> >>>   8< snip 8<
> >>>     Request Processing
> >>>     ------------------
> >>>   8< snip 8<
> >>>       Connection               Request             HTTP
> >>>       ----------                -------            ----
> >>>            Total: 1956677       Total: 7625722      1.1: 5953591 (84%)
> >>>          Current:       7     Current:       1      1.0: 1133162 (16%)
> >>>             Peak:     735        Peak:     586      0.9:      91  (0%)
> >>>   8< snip 8<
> >>>                     Persistent /Total: 5219968
> >>>                                  /Max:     509
> >>>                       Pipeline /Total:   12971
> >>>                                  /Max:      60
> >>>   8< snip 8<
> >>>
> >>>> (Internet bloody Explorer gives me
> >>>> 3 connections to receive a single Applet :-( bizarre))
> >>>> The browser *is* the GUI (maybe even the OS?) but that does not
mandate
> >>
> >>
> >> a
> >>
> >>>> http web-server being the application middleware back-bone!
Expedient,
> >>>> ubiquitous, "easy" - yes, but "right" no way! (Leaving to one side
> >>
> >>
> >> security
> >>
> >>>> and high-performance for the moment)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Just watch what Microsoft is doing with SilverLight and control of
> >>
> >>
> >> server
> >>
> >>>> interaction, and also Adobe, Oracle, IBM and BEA. Web-Servers are
great
> >>
> >>
> >> at
> >>
> >>>> serving up files and pimping for applications, but once the
> >>
> >>
> >> introductions
> >>
> >>>> have been made, you should put the Sow's ear down and start sowing
with
> >>>> silk!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight.  Not trying to teach you how to suck
> >>> eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET
> >>> Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3
> >>> offers?  Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than
> >>> Java.  There are also open-source compatibility environments available
> >>> and in-development.  And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is
> >>> supported on Win32?"  Just my AU$0.05 FWIW.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Whether you choose to call it a Portal, a Consolidator, or a Broker,
> >>
> >>
> >> your
> >>
> >>>> application server *is* something that you'll log-on and maintain a
> >>>> connection to. I just see no reason why that Application Server isn't
> >>
> >>
> >> VMS.
> >>
> >>>> VMS has the security, reliability, disaster tolerence, and clustering
> >>>> superiority that could give it the-edge in the server arena; it's
> >>>> just a
> >>>> shame it's not happening (and hasn't been for over 10 years :-()
> >>>> Call me
> >>>> crazy, but if Tier3 can give you Context-Rich, Connection-Oriented,
> >>>> client-interaction coupled with Transparent Load-Balancing and
Network
> >>>> Communication, and Integrated VMS Authentication on the server-side,
> >>
> >>
> >> then I
> >>
> >>>> also think that's a good thing! All any Application Server that you
> >>
> >>
> >> write
> >>
> >>>> (in any 3GL) will consist of is 6 User Action Routines built into a
> >>>> Shareable Image - That's it! No aditional privileges reqd, your
> >>
> >>
> >> server(s)
> >>
> >>>> run a a VMS detached process under the username that you select, a
> >>
> >>
> >> Persona
> >>
> >>>> matching the client's credentials is made available to your 3GL
> >>>> routines
> >>
> >>
> >> in
> >>
> >>>> order to aid in access control, and full VMS Debugger faciliities
> >>>> are at
> >>>> your disposal. Add to that the fact that each Application can be
tuned
> >>
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>> configured independantly by your System Manager, and it's all
gravy!!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Anyway, you and the cast of thousands at the IMM team are free to
> >>>> persue
> >>
> >>
> >> VMS
> >>
> >>>> Middle Management's "Year Zero" program and send all the corrupt
legacy
> >>>> 3GL/DCL/SystemService/Macro coders out of the decadent cities and
into
> >>
> >>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>> pure, unsullied, Java-OO-and-http paddy-fields. Sooner or later those
> >>>> wankers have to realize that it's the revenue that the cities
generate
> >>>> that's keeping them, and VMS, afloat? Sadly, by that stage, I suspect
> >>
> >>
> >> we'll
> >>
> >>>> all be lying in those paddy fields with plastic bags over our heads
:-(
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> (suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little* fun
of
> >>>>> your sometime glossolalia Richard :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I've found it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to
> >>
> >>
> >> slagging
> >>
> >>>> people off with your reckless throw away lines :-) A bit of empathy
> >>
> >>
> >> never
> >>
> >>>> hurt anyone you know. I'm mean next you'll be saying something like
> >>>> "Sachin's (pick a close relative)'s an Untouchable"; and where will
it
> >>
> >>
> >> all
> >>
> >>>> end then eh?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Cheers Richard Maher
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> PS. I would have sworn that "glossolalia" was a word you just made
up;
> >>
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>> yet how appropriate, humorous, and still cutting on so many levels.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> High praise indeed!  Received with due humility. ;-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I suggest you drink more and read less :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sage advice at the end of my annual leave!  Prosit!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> "Mark Daniel" <mark.dan...@vsm.com.au> wrote in message
> >>>> news:13ob3863rj19iaf@corp.supernews.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 8< snip 8<
> >>>
> >>>>> Credulity kills.
> >>>>> [Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -- 
> >>> The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in
> >>> politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place
for
> >>> it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where
> >>> fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely
> >>> solar system. The history of our study of our solar system shows us
> >>> clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that
> >>> fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources.
> >>> [Carl Sagan; quotation from the Cosmos television series]
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > I believe that an orderly universe, one indifferent to human
> > preoccupations, in which everything has an explanation even if we still
> > have a long way to go before we find it, is a more beautiful, more
> > wonderful place than a universe tricked out with capricious ad hoc
magic.
> > [Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow]
>
> --
> To fill a world with ... religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like
> littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are
> used.
> [Richard Dawkins; "Religion's Misguided Missiles"]
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:32:18 +0800
From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>
Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving)
Message-ID: <foqifm$qph$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>

Ooops!

The second: -

> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_uars.cob

should have been: -

> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_tip_sql.sqlmod

Cheers Richard Maher

"Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote in message
news:foqgvf$pjc$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...
> Hi again,
>
> > Hmmm.  I better clarify this as well.  AIUI, it's back-end glue.  You
> > need to roll-your-own back-end.
>
> I'd put it this way, you need to supply the application-specific logic,
the
> business rules. Everything else is done for you!
>
> For an example of *all* of the code reqd to build a Tier3 Server
Application
> please see: -
> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_uars.cob
>
> For one that participates in an ACID-proof 2PC between VMS/Rdb/DECdtm and
> W2K/SQL Server/MTSDTC please see: -
>
> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_tip.cob
> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_uars.cob
> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/build_tip_demo.com
>
> Please also refer to hotTIP in Chpt 7 of the Tier3 Client/Server
Development
> manual for more. (Or why not let me send you a hobbyist's version of the
kit
> and you can go crazy for yourself?)
>
> In the mean time don't forget: -
>
> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html
>
> Username: TIER3_DEMO
> Password: QUEUE
>
> Enter "*" for the Queue Name and then hit the "Get info" button. Click on
> the select-list header for sorting or one of the rows for drill-down. (All
> of the html/javascript is also there)
>
> Cheers Richard Maher
>
> "Mark Daniel" <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au> wrote in message
> news:13r06oakqubquf4@corp.supernews.com...
> > Mark Daniel wrote:
> > > Richard Maher wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Mark,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight.  Not trying to teach you how to
suck
> > >>> eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET
> > >>> Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that
Tier3
> > >>> offers?  Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than
> > >>> Java.  There are also open-source compatibility environments
available
> > >>> and in-development.  And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is
> > >>> supported on Win32?"  Just my AU$0.05 FWIW.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Now I'm dissappointed :-( If someone with your abilities, attention
to
> > >> detail, and seeming fathomless desire to read anything and
everything,
> > >> cannot understand one of the basic tenets of the Tier3 architecture
> > >> then the
> > >> documentation must be in a sorry shape indeeed. Please (re)read
> > >> chapter 2 in
> > >> the Tier3 Client/Server Development manual
> > >> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/tier3_031.pdf and get back to
me.
> I
> > >> think the key words are *No client-specific software required!*.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think I understand that Tier3 is back-end only :-)  All you need is
a
> >
> > Hmmm.  I better clarify this as well.  AIUI, it's back-end glue.  You
> > need to roll-your-own back-end.
> >
> > > network connection (TCP/IP, IPsec-ed preferably (not TLS), or DECnet)
> > > and some front-end, roll-your-own glue.  My suggestion, obviously
> > > clumsily put, was that providing a .NET Framework equivalent to the
Java
> > > applet(s?) you have put up, would have reached a *larger* audience.
"Is
> > > it supported on Win32?  Of course!  Look ..."
> > >
> > >> If you want to use .NET then go crazy! Anyone, and everyone, can talk
> to
> > >> Tier3 application servers using standard TCP/IP Sockets (or DECnet
> > >> interface) with whatever tools they require or desire. ActiveX
> > >> controls? I
> > >> love it! - Java Sockets? Can't get enough of it! C+ BSD Sockets? Mad
> > >> for it!
> > >> VMS System Services? I'm over the moon!
> > >>
> > >> I ( with heaps of help from the likes of the very talented Bojan
> > >> Nemec's and
> > >> Arne's of the world) provided a Java Applet example because I thought
> it
> > >> might be useful for VMS sites to be able to automatically distribute
> > >> their
> > >> client GUI application over the web at the click of a button. No more
> > >> cumbersome client-software rollouts and upgrades. (As well as the
usual
> > >> Tier3 benefits of complete integration with the VMS security model,
> > >> transparent multi-threading, and TP load-balancing) Silly me, hey?
> > >>
> > >> Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see
> Adobe
> > >> ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no
> > >> problem
> > >> with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find
> > >> in the
> > >> t2$examples directory.
> > >>
> > >> I *really, really, really* want to provide an Asynchronous Socket
> client
> > >> example using JSObject (maybe tick over a stock-price, or perhaps an
> > >> OPCOM
> > >> message) and I *really, really, really* want to incorporate the
> Flex-Ajax
> > >> Bridge to deliver Flex Charting examples, but with absolutely
> bugger-all
> > >> help from HP/VMS (as usual) it's having to go on the back-burner as I
> am
> > >> fortunate enough to be involved with a Linux/Java/SOAP development
> > >> that with
> > >> be talking to one of the main travel CRSs. (And of  course an IA64
> > >> version
> > >> if HP would sell me an Itanium box at the same price they are forcing
> > >> them
> > >> on others)
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, gotta go. . .
> > >>
> > >> Cheers Richard Maher
> > >>
> > >> PS. WRT Silverlight, please search this group for why I (FWIW) think
> > >> it is
> > >> definitely *not* the way to go. Microsoft for one (and I'm sure
there's
> > >> more) know that HTTP is a poorly performing, insecure, piece of shit
> > >> when it
> > >> comes to an application middleware protocol, and now with
> > >> Silverlight's "I
> > >> can't believe it's not butter (or AJAX in this case)" perhaps they'll
> be
> > >> able to deliver a high-performance propritary solution under the
covers
> > >> after the initial handshake.
> > >>
> > >> On Jan 12, 12:07 pm, Mark Daniel <mark.dan...@vsm.com.au> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Richard Maher wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi Mark,
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> Hmmm. Perhaps
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>  Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> or
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>  Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit  -  T3SIT
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> :-)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and
> > >>>>> leave VMS
> > >>>>> an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end
up
> > >>>>> finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> My God, I'm transparent! How long has this been going on?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Look, at the end of the day, I can't believe I'm having to defend
the
> > >>>> concept of "logging-on" to some people! Or the fact that having a
1:M
> > >>>> relationship between Application Server Connections and Messages
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Exchanged
> > >>
> > >>>> is also a good thing. (Here's an idea for an additional stats field
> for
> > >>>> WASD; "HTTP 1.1 requests per connection".
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>   HTTPd ...uma.es:80
> > >>>   Server Statistics    (HTTPe:80)
> > >>>   Saturday, 12-JAN-2008 03:59:50
> > >>>   8< snip 8<
> > >>>     Request Processing
> > >>>     ------------------
> > >>>   8< snip 8<
> > >>>       Connection               Request             HTTP
> > >>>       ----------                -------            ----
> > >>>            Total: 1956677       Total: 7625722      1.1: 5953591
(84%)
> > >>>          Current:       7     Current:       1      1.0: 1133162
(16%)
> > >>>             Peak:     735        Peak:     586      0.9:      91
(0%)
> > >>>   8< snip 8<
> > >>>                     Persistent /Total: 5219968
> > >>>                                  /Max:     509
> > >>>                       Pipeline /Total:   12971
> > >>>                                  /Max:      60
> > >>>   8< snip 8<
> > >>>
> > >>>> (Internet bloody Explorer gives me
> > >>>> 3 connections to receive a single Applet :-( bizarre))
> > >>>> The browser *is* the GUI (maybe even the OS?) but that does not
> mandate
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> a
> > >>
> > >>>> http web-server being the application middleware back-bone!
> Expedient,
> > >>>> ubiquitous, "easy" - yes, but "right" no way! (Leaving to one side
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> security
> > >>
> > >>>> and high-performance for the moment)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Just watch what Microsoft is doing with SilverLight and control of
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> server
> > >>
> > >>>> interaction, and also Adobe, Oracle, IBM and BEA. Web-Servers are
> great
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> at
> > >>
> > >>>> serving up files and pimping for applications, but once the
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> introductions
> > >>
> > >>>> have been made, you should put the Sow's ear down and start sowing
> with
> > >>>> silk!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight.  Not trying to teach you how to
suck
> > >>> eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET
> > >>> Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that
Tier3
> > >>> offers?  Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than
> > >>> Java.  There are also open-source compatibility environments
available
> > >>> and in-development.  And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is
> > >>> supported on Win32?"  Just my AU$0.05 FWIW.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Whether you choose to call it a Portal, a Consolidator, or a
Broker,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> your
> > >>
> > >>>> application server *is* something that you'll log-on and maintain a
> > >>>> connection to. I just see no reason why that Application Server
isn't
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> VMS.
> > >>
> > >>>> VMS has the security, reliability, disaster tolerence, and
clustering
> > >>>> superiority that could give it the-edge in the server arena; it's
> > >>>> just a
> > >>>> shame it's not happening (and hasn't been for over 10 years :-()
> > >>>> Call me
> > >>>> crazy, but if Tier3 can give you Context-Rich, Connection-Oriented,
> > >>>> client-interaction coupled with Transparent Load-Balancing and
> Network
> > >>>> Communication, and Integrated VMS Authentication on the
server-side,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> then I
> > >>
> > >>>> also think that's a good thing! All any Application Server that you
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> write
> > >>
> > >>>> (in any 3GL) will consist of is 6 User Action Routines built into a
> > >>>> Shareable Image - That's it! No aditional privileges reqd, your
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> server(s)
> > >>
> > >>>> run a a VMS detached process under the username that you select, a
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Persona
> > >>
> > >>>> matching the client's credentials is made available to your 3GL
> > >>>> routines
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> in
> > >>
> > >>>> order to aid in access control, and full VMS Debugger faciliities
> > >>>> are at
> > >>>> your disposal. Add to that the fact that each Application can be
> tuned
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> and
> > >>
> > >>>> configured independantly by your System Manager, and it's all
> gravy!!!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Anyway, you and the cast of thousands at the IMM team are free to
> > >>>> persue
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> VMS
> > >>
> > >>>> Middle Management's "Year Zero" program and send all the corrupt
> legacy
> > >>>> 3GL/DCL/SystemService/Macro coders out of the decadent cities and
> into
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> the
> > >>
> > >>>> pure, unsullied, Java-OO-and-http paddy-fields. Sooner or later
those
> > >>>> wankers have to realize that it's the revenue that the cities
> generate
> > >>>> that's keeping them, and VMS, afloat? Sadly, by that stage, I
suspect
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> we'll
> > >>
> > >>>> all be lying in those paddy fields with plastic bags over our heads
> :-(
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> (suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little*
fun
> of
> > >>>>> your sometime glossolalia Richard :-)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> I've found it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> slagging
> > >>
> > >>>> people off with your reckless throw away lines :-) A bit of empathy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> never
> > >>
> > >>>> hurt anyone you know. I'm mean next you'll be saying something like
> > >>>> "Sachin's (pick a close relative)'s an Untouchable"; and where will
> it
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> all
> > >>
> > >>>> end then eh?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Cheers Richard Maher
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> PS. I would have sworn that "glossolalia" was a word you just made
> up;
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> and
> > >>
> > >>>> yet how appropriate, humorous, and still cutting on so many levels.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> High praise indeed!  Received with due humility. ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> I suggest you drink more and read less :-)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Sage advice at the end of my annual leave!  Prosit!!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> "Mark Daniel" <mark.dan...@vsm.com.au> wrote in message
> > >>>> news:13ob3863rj19iaf@corp.supernews.com...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> 8< snip 8<
> > >>>
> > >>>>> Credulity kills.
> > >>>>> [Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World]
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -- 
> > >>> The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or
in
> > >>> politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place
> for
> > >>> it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where
> > >>> fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely
> > >>> solar system. The history of our study of our solar system shows us
> > >>> clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and
that
> > >>> fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources.
> > >>> [Carl Sagan; quotation from the Cosmos television series]
> > >
> > >
> > > -- 
> > > I believe that an orderly universe, one indifferent to human
> > > preoccupations, in which everything has an explanation even if we
still
> > > have a long way to go before we find it, is a more beautiful, more
> > > wonderful place than a universe tricked out with capricious ad hoc
> magic.
> > > [Richard Dawkins; Unweaving The Rainbow]
> >
> > --
> > To fill a world with ... religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like
> > littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are
> > used.
> > [Richard Dawkins; "Religion's Misguided Missiles"]
> >
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:57:40 +0100
From: Marc Van Dyck <marc.vandyck@brutele.be>
Subject: Re: VMSINSTAL Message
Message-ID: <mn.5d617d825f419c5d.86952@brutele.be>

David J Dachtera wrote on 9/02/2008 :
>
> PCSI is still "black magic" to me: I've yet to see a coherent
> explanation of how it works or how to deal with it. I think it has some
> fixed logic ala RPG, but I've never seen a flowchart or anything which
> explains it as I saw for RPG which essentially was RPG's "rosetta stone"
> in my case.
>
Have a look at the sources of the MBX package that I submitted for
the freeware CD a few years ago. The sources for building the PCSI
kit are present, and the commands to build it are in the MMS file.
It's not too much documented, but it should be quite self-explanatory.

-- 
Marc Van Dyck

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:29:20 -0600
From: David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>
Subject: Re: VMSINSTAL Message
Message-ID: <47B10480.3B5450E8@spam.comcast.net>

Marc Van Dyck wrote:
> 
> David J Dachtera wrote on 9/02/2008 :
> >
> > PCSI is still "black magic" to me: I've yet to see a coherent
> > explanation of how it works or how to deal with it. I think it has some
> > fixed logic ala RPG, but I've never seen a flowchart or anything which
> > explains it as I saw for RPG which essentially was RPG's "rosetta stone"
> > in my case.
> >
> Have a look at the sources of the MBX package that I submitted for
> the freeware CD a few years ago. The sources for building the PCSI
> kit are present, and the commands to build it are in the MMS file.
> It's not too much documented, but it should be quite self-explanatory.

I'll see if I can find it.

Thanx much!

David J Dachtera
DJE Systems

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:10:16 GMT
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?=
Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Message-ID: <sB4sj.3759$R_4.2621@newsb.telia.net>

Paul Anderson wrote:


> Alan, I've looked into the differences between the Xerox Phaser 7750 and 
> 7760 printers this morning and they appear to be minimal...

I'm having a similar "problem" right now. A customer has a
Xerox "WorkCentre 4150" where there are some printing troubles.

http://www.office.xerox.com/multifunction-printer/enus.html

I'm checking if DCPS would be a good option here. Now,
the *4150* is not in the list of supported printes in
the SPD, of course. :-)

The files are plain text 7-bit ASCII, and we need the national
ISO-Latin "Swedish" chars in place of "[\]{|}", that is
decimal 91,92,93 and 123,124,135.

"åäöÅÄÖ" for those that can read/see them... :-)

Currently the queue runs with a custom-built symbiont
that changes these 6 chars in the fly. But support of that
custom symbiont is, well, no more.

There is also a problem with an extra blank page before
each printout (which always are a single page...) and
I'd thought that DCPS would cure that too. I do not
think that the custom-built symbint (just a short Macro
program) works with the usual Setup-modules...

Anyway, any thoughts about this and if DCPS whould have
any features to solve this particular problem would be nice.

Jan-Erik.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:43:34 -0500
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Message-ID: <47B0DDA6.5000901@comcast.net>

Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Paul Anderson wrote:
> 
> 
>> Alan, I've looked into the differences between the Xerox Phaser 7750 
>> and 7760 printers this morning and they appear to be minimal...
> 
> 
> I'm having a similar "problem" right now. A customer has a
> Xerox "WorkCentre 4150" where there are some printing troubles.
> 
> http://www.office.xerox.com/multifunction-printer/enus.html
> 
> I'm checking if DCPS would be a good option here. Now,
> the *4150* is not in the list of supported printes in
> the SPD, of course. :-)
> 
> The files are plain text 7-bit ASCII, and we need the national
> ISO-Latin "Swedish" chars in place of "[\]{|}", that is
> decimal 91,92,93 and 123,124,135.
> 
> "åäöÅÄÖ" for those that can read/see them... :-)
> 
> Currently the queue runs with a custom-built symbiont
> that changes these 6 chars in the fly. But support of that
> custom symbiont is, well, no more.
> 
> There is also a problem with an extra blank page before
> each printout (which always are a single page...) and
> I'd thought that DCPS would cure that too. I do not
> think that the custom-built symbint (just a short Macro
> program) works with the usual Setup-modules...
> 
> Anyway, any thoughts about this and if DCPS whould have
> any features to solve this particular problem would be nice.
> 

The blank page could be due to *any* non-printing character sequence
in the job setup or page setup that is not recogonized as an escape or 
control sequence.  If the symbiont is not certain that the the first 
line of text will print on the first line of the page, it will issue 
that formfeed to ensure that it is.

There is, or was, a special escape sequence you could use to tell the 
print symbiont that no formfeed is required or desired.  It's been too 
many years since I needed it but perhaps that clue will point you or 
someone here to the necesary "magic".  I don't have it on my personal 
machine and, after 3-1/2 years without needing it; it MAY still be in 
the sludge at the bottom of my mind and float to the top again someday 
but don't hold your breath!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:19:03 -0500
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Message-ID: <47b0e78f$0$22072$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:

> The files are plain text 7-bit ASCII, and we need the national
> ISO-Latin "Swedish" chars in place of "[\]{|}", that is
> decimal 91,92,93 and 123,124,135.
> 
> "åäöÅÄÖ" for those that can read/see them... :-)

Woudln't it be much simpler to just send the charcaters you want ?

aka: for å , send 0xE4 (228)

DCPS *should* have no problem handling this.

For instance:

/Helvetica-Bold findfont dup length dict begin
{ 1 index /FID ne {def} {pop pop} ifelse} forall
/Encoding ISOLatin1Encoding def
currentdict
end
/Helvetica-Bold exch definefont pop

Will map Helvetica-Bold to the ISO latin, allowing you to have the full
ISO character set.

Perhaps DCPS still uses the DEC multinational character set, but that
also supports the swedish characters. It differs for ISO 8859-1 by only
a few non-alphabetic charcacters.



Are your files just simple text files (and you expect DCPS to convert to
postscript ?)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:49:11 -0500
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Message-ID: <47B10927.70306@comcast.net>

Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Paul Anderson wrote:
> 
> 
>> Alan, I've looked into the differences between the Xerox Phaser 7750 
>> and 7760 printers this morning and they appear to be minimal...
> 
<snip>
> There is also a problem with an extra blank page before
> each printout (which always are a single page...) and
> I'd thought that DCPS would cure that too. I do not
> think that the custom-built symbint (just a short Macro
> program) works with the usual Setup-modules...

See http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_1020.html
for the trick used to suppress the formfeed.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 04:06:14 GMT
From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)
Subject: Re: Xerox 7760 on DCPS?
Message-ID: <00A75072.0474F534@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>

In article <paul.anderson-4AA494.12063411022008@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com> writes:
>In article <00A74E4E.933A00A3@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>,
> winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) 
> wrote:
>
>> On the one hand, the question is now moot, because the HP5550 was 
>> cheaper and the beancounters decided that was a compelling reason. On 
>> the other, I thought I might flush out the DCPS developer (who has 
>> very kindly popped up and answered questions here in the past) to 
>> give me a hint about whether it would be supported in future.
>
>Alan, I've looked into the differences between the Xerox Phaser 7750 and 
>7760 printers this morning and they appear to be minimal.  The 7760 is 
>the replacement for the 7750 and has an optional puncher, but otherwise 
>they appear very similar under the hood.  And they appear to have that 
>same off-white color on the outside, so they must be about the same, 
>right?

That sounds pretty compelling. (What could go wrong?)

>
>I've added the 7760 to the list of printers we might support in the next 
>version of DCPS.  We are always interested in hearing about printer 
>models customers want supported.

Cool.

>
>It's also very likely it would work with DCPS V2.6 as long as you fooled 
>DCPS into thinking it was a 7750 by defining the PRODUCT_NAME logical 
>name.

The users who were thinking about a 7760 went with an HP5550 because it was
cheaper, and I found that on the DCPS SPD, so I'm good for now.  We have
several 5000s that are on their last legs, so the 7760 question is likely to
come up again, but I don't have to do anything about it now.

Thanks!

-- Alan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:47:00 +0200
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= <uusimaki@withouthis_exdecfinland.org>
Subject: Re: XP1000 and DEGPA-TA
Message-ID: <47b0a283$0$21882$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>

Vance Haemmerle wrote:
>  After getting a DEGPA-TA (Gigabit Ethernet) for an XP1000
> I can confirm that it does work fine on VMS V7.2-2.  It
> doesn't show up under "show device" in the firmware but
> does show up as "DEGPA" when doing a "show config".  I guess
> this means that you can't boot up over it.  It auto
> negotiates to 1000Mbit full duplex when connected to a Gigabit Netgear 
> switch.  On bootup it gets configured after
> a PowerStorm 350 graphics device configures.  When used
> with VMScluster SCS traffic it gets configured right after
> the internal Fast Ethernet port, before the 350.  It shows
> up as EWB0 as compared to the internal EWA0.
> 
>  I was looking at the Multimedia Services information and I
> see that it supports audio for the XP1000 with a PCI card
> called "Compaq Creative Labs AudioPCI Card (also referred to
> as the Compaq Ensoniq AudioPCI Card)".  I've looked on the
> Internet and there seems to be several Compaq AudioPCI cards,
> e.g. ES1371, Audio 128, 5200, etc. all using the ES1373
> chipset. I see some with and some without a game port.  Which
> one is the supported one?
> 
>  I also noticed that Multimedia Services supports the
> "AlphaStation Sound Card" (also known as the Microsoft Sound
> Board,and referred to as the MSB device) on the DIGITAL
> Personal Workstation 600au, and on previously shipped
> AlphaStation systems."  The release notes mention that MMOV
> includes a mmov$essdriver driver to support the built-in
> audio on the Personal Workstations if some info is added to
> the sys$user_config.dat.  I can confirm that this also works
> on the internal audio of the XP1000, it creates a device AUA0:
> which works with the audio play programs.  So I may not buy
> an audio PCI card, but I would like to have the output audio
> of the CD-ROM available.
> 
> -- 
> Vance Haemmerle


The DEGPA adapter is not supported for booting, but the DEGXA adapter 
is. So no wonder.

Regards,

Kari

------------------------------

End of INFO-VAX 2008.085
************************