INFO-VAX Mon, 11 Feb 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 83 Contents: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: CIFS cluster setup DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to Re: DIBOL to RE: Hack contest Re: IA64 VMS installation DVD creation. Re: Iffy DCL IF Re: Iffy DCL IF Re: Iffy DCL IF SSH SOCKS forwarding Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:33:41 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <57b5d4a4-ef53-444c-997f-d299772e8549@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Feb 10, 11:34 am, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article <77ebedef-58dd-4d76-9eef-323939a9d...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > > > > Well, what about the DIRECTORY command, then? It gives warning for no > > files found, error for directory not found, and severe error for bad > > device: > > > DCL> DIR ASDF.ASDF > > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found > > DCL> SH SYM $SEVERITY > > $SEVERITY == "0" > > DCL> DIR [ASDF] > > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$DATA1:[ASDF]*.*;* as input > > -RMS-E-DNF, directory not found > > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file > > DCL> SH SYM $SEVERITY > > $SEVERITY == "2" > > DCL> DIR ASDF: > > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[FELDMAN.DCL.PLAY]*.*;* as input > > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for > > operation > > DCL> SH SYM $SEVERITY > > $SEVERITY == "4" > > DCL> > > > And in the last case, the %-severity disagrees with the $SEVERITY > > severity. > > If you look closely, you may notice that the exit status produced > by $ DIRECTORY matches the underlying error code, if any, rather > than the outermost error code that is displayed by $ DIRECTORY. > > $ dir [asdf] > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening EISNER$DRA3:[ASDF]*.*;* as input > -RMS-E-DNF, directory not found > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file > $ show sym $status > $STATUS == "%X1001C04A" > $ exit %x1c04a > %RMS-E-DNF, directory not found > > $ dir asdf: > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening ASDF:[DECUSERVE_USER.BRIGGS]*.*;* as input > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation > $ show sym $status > $STATUS == "%X100184C4" > $ exit %x184c4 > %RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation > > There is no discrepancy between $SEVERITY and $STATUS > There is a discrepancy between $STATUS and the displayed error message. That's what I said. But it is a discrepancy between the PERCENT line of the displayed error message, which is what I said. And it is almost always the PERCENT line (%-SEVERITY) of the error message -- which is the first line -- that agrees with $SEVERITY. Here it is again. I wrote... > > And in the last case, the %-severity disagrees with the $SEVERITY > > severity. The "%-severity", that's the one in the message, more explicitly: %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening EISNER$DRA3:[ASDF]*.*;* as input disagrees with the $SEVERITY severity: > > DCL> SH SYM $SEVERITY > > $SEVERITY == "4" Assuming, of course, that "-E-" means a severity level of 2, which it normally does!!! We are not in disagreement, unless you disagree to agree, of course!!! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:04:07 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: CIFS cluster setup Message-ID: Rich Jordan wrote: > Barely started working on one CIFS setup, so far unable to get proper > security, and already got people clamoring for more, and yesterday. > (I heard Samba was good, and its free, and its available for my > Alpha!) Hooray for sales. > > Two node Alpha cluster (LAVC + SCSI cluster) running TCPIP services > with the old-style cluster alias address and hostname and VMS V8.3. > Due to old redundancy requirements the two systems are running > separate local system disks that are NOT on the shared bus. The > shared disks are shadowed, and the cluster common files (SYSUAF, > RIGHTSLIST, queue files, etc, all the ones recommended in the cluster > manual) are on shared storage accessible to either node with the other > one offline. > > Although it hasn't been specified there is no doubt they will want > CIFS to be redundant and cluster "aware" or at least cluster friendly > too. Based on the scant info in the documentation HP provides, I > don't think it can be either. I have not looked at the current CIFS releases from HP, so I do not know what is supported or implemented. However the SAMBA on VMS implementation have always been a collection of processes. Samba keeps track of client locks and other stuff in files in the SAMBA_ROOT directory. All SAMBA processes that are common to a share must use the same files for coordination. SAMBA it self is cluster agnostic. If the cluster is transparent, and you set up SAMBA properly it should just work. It may be that the SAMBA$ROOT or SAMBA_ROOT logical name needs to be set up to have two directory trees, one system specific, and one cluster common, or if all the systems can share the same configuration files and binaries, then only one root directory would be needed. The PCSI installation utility does not provide support for setting up software on clusters that have separate system disks. That requires a helper utility to manage things. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:34:53 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: DIBOL to Message-ID: Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some custom software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL "include" files. They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the users and probably causes some customers to consider other suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any appreciable improvement. I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for Synergy DBL alone. I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator running on bare metal.) Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in moving code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what language would be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, relative and sequential files are used.) Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they would with DIBOL. The language would need to support "include" files. Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to convert. I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't hold me to it. The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported to the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I continued to generate correct code. A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start down the correct road first. The languages which I first thought would meet the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. This doesn't strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to choose a language which is also supported on Itanium. I await your wisdom. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:51:52 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47AF8E18.1B1CCE5D@spam.comcast.net> Tad Winters wrote: > > Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over > programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. > > I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some custom > software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. The custom > forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL "include" files. > > They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. The > system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the users > and probably causes some customers to consider other suppliers. The > system has been tuned many times, without any appreciable improvement. > > I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since > DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be Synergy > DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a show > stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for Synergy DBL > alone. > > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) > > Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in moving > code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what language would > be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: > A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. > The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, > relative and sequential files are used.) > Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they would > with DIBOL. > The language would need to support "include" files. > > Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to convert. > I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't hold me to > it. > > The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported to > the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I > continued to generate correct code. > > A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and > support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start down > the correct road first. The languages which I first thought would meet > the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. This doesn't > strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to choose a > language which is also supported on Itanium. > > I await your wisdom. A local associate of mine (who happens to own openvms.com) had a client who did their DIBOL development on VAX, then VESTed the images to Alpha. My first suggestion, however, would be to troubleshoot the performance issue, if at all possible. Demons could be lurking there which will migrate to the new platform, if you try to move them to Alpha without exploring that. David J Dachtera DJE Systems ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:19:46 -0800 (PST) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: On Feb 10, 6:34=A0pm, Tad Winters wrote: > =A0The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL "incl= ude" files. Since it is generated, a of 'perl' can probably readily transform that into anything. > They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. =A0The > system runs rather slowly at times Slowly 'at times' suggests to me that the basic need is met, but there might be an addresable peformance/tuning issue. But they shoudl probably move regardless. > The system has been tuned many times, without any appreciable improvement.= Personally I don't believe in system tuning. Unless someting is really broken, that's just fumbling in the margins. Application and DB tuning is the only way to make a proper difference. > I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since > DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be Synergy > DBL. =A0 Did you also check out our friend Bruce Claremon offerings? http://www.migrationspecialties.com/CBL.html > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. =A0(Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) It has been working well. Despite bad rap, I'm personally not so much concerned about the underpinnings of the emulators. Windows is stable in predictable environment. If is is just a host, then it will do fine. Just don't use the same box too much native windows stuff. No random web-browsing or family video productions on the side! I would be more concerened about the application beginning to run into inherent botlleneck which may be starting to show now on VAX but may well still be there on Alpha or an other platform. >=A0The languages which I first thought would meet > the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. =A0 Hmm, you don't mention C. Yeak it does not have native RMS (indexed file) support, but it can call RMS any which way you like. I (used) to like BASIC a lot, but it seems such a dead-end street to me these days and it is NOT a high performance language, just a 'comfortable' language like perl. and where will you find folks experienced with Vax-Basic's little gotcha's? Fortran... ho hum Cobol... proabbly the best match for Dibol Pascal... Clean language, but how many programmers are available out there? My knee-jerk reaction is 'C'... you can write bad code in any language. Good luck! Hope this helps some, Hein van den Heuvel (at gmail dot com) HvdH Performance Consulting ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:42:06 -0800 (PST) From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: On Feb 10, 6:34=A0pm, Tad Winters wrote: > Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over > programming languages. =A0I'm after honest, technical answers. > > I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some custom > software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. =A0The custom > forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL "include" files. > > They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. =A0The > system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the users > and probably causes some customers to consider other suppliers. =A0The > system has been tuned many times, without any appreciable improvement. > > I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since > DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be Synergy > DBL. =A0Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a show > stopper. =A0They would be looking at more than $20,000 for Synergy DBL > alone. > > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. =A0(Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) > > Now to the meat of my question. =A0If a person was interested in moving > code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what language would > be the best choice? =A0Keep these details in mind: > A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. > The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, > relative and sequential files are used.) > Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they would > with DIBOL. > The language would need to support "include" files. > > Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to convert. = =A0 > I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't hold me to > it. > > The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported to > the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I > continued to generate correct code. > > A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and > support applications, which I would port first. =A0I'd like to start down > the correct road first. =A0The languages which I first thought would meet > the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. =A0This doesn't > strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to choose a > language which is also supported on Itanium. > > I await your wisdom. Ask synergy to give you a break on the licensing ... they are sometimes flexible for small companies ... also there have been several dibol shops who have used vest successfully ... I would buy a DS10L from island for 200.00 and try vest first ... it probably will work and its free ... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:06:49 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47AFADB9.10708@comcast.net> Tad Winters wrote: > Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over > programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. > > I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some custom > software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. The custom > forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL "include" files. > > They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. The > system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the users > and probably causes some customers to consider other suppliers. The > system has been tuned many times, without any appreciable improvement. > Tuning was not intended for miracles. Unless a system is horribly mistuned to start with, the best you can hope for is to squeeze out the last ten percent in performance! > I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since > DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be Synergy > DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a show > stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for Synergy DBL > alone. > > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) > > Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in moving > code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what language would > be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: > A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. Just about ANY language except Gnu C is going to require a license that costs money! AFAIK there is no such thing as Gnu COBOL! > The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, > relative and sequential files are used.) > Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they would > with DIBOL. > The language would need to support "include" files. > > Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to convert. > I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't hold me to > it. > > The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported to > the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I > continued to generate correct code. > > A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and > support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start down > the correct road first. The languages which I first thought would meet > the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. This doesn't > strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to choose a > language which is also supported on Itanium. > > I await your wisdom. You didn't say what model VAX they were using. Some were painfully slow, others were much faster. Knowing the Model of the VAX, we might be able to suggest a substantially faster machine. A faster machine might very well require more "License Units"! OTOH, rewriting 350,000 lines of code in a new language, supported on the Alpha and/or Itanic, is probably going to cost seven to ten man years of effort. The other approach, the one that you asked about; is another language. You can code just about anything, in just about any language! Languages have both strengths and weaknesses. The language that was great for doing Fourier Transforms would have to be bent out of shape to write accounts receivable and vice versa of course. The only widely available languages that might be close to DIBOL (a language I know almost nothing about) are COBOL and PL/1. I believe that PL/1 is available for Alpha; I don't know if it's available for Itanic. I think that, if you cost this out carefully, you may find that a $20,000 license is small change compared to the rest of it! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:05:25 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47afbb70$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Just about ANY language except Gnu C is going to require a license that > costs money! AFAIK there is no such thing as Gnu COBOL! Java, Perl, Python etc. are also free. But may not be a good choice for the task (RMS, Macro-32 etc.). Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:47:26 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: Tad Winters wrote in news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: > Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over > programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. > > I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some > custom software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. > The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL > "include" files. > > They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. > The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the > users and probably causes some customers to consider other > suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any > appreciable improvement. > > I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since > DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be > Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a > show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for > Synergy DBL alone. > > I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a > huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop > something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator > running on bare metal.) > > Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in > moving code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what > language would be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: > A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. > The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, > relative and sequential files are used.) > Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they > would with DIBOL. > The language would need to support "include" files. > > Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to > convert. I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't > hold me to it. > > The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported > to the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I > continued to generate correct code. > > A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and > support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start > down the correct road first. The languages which I first thought > would meet the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. > This doesn't strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to > choose a language which is also supported on Itanium. > > I await your wisdom. > Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to 150 concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 in the morning, when many reports are being run in batch in addition to interactive use. There are 120 detached processes performing (or waiting to perform) specific application functions. The system is also running MultiNet V4.4. I'd love to get this all upgraded, but there's no way that would fly without guaranteed significant performance improvement. If upgrading is the way to go, then it seems like it would be best to make as much a jump as possible. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:52:20 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: <47AFC674.1030105@comcast.net> Tad Winters wrote: > Tad Winters wrote in > news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: > > >>Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over >>programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. >> >>I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some >>custom software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. >>The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL >>"include" files. >> >>They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. >>The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the >>users and probably causes some customers to consider other >>suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any >>appreciable improvement. >> >>I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since >>DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be >>Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is a >>show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for >>Synergy DBL alone. >> >>I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a >>huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop >>something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator >>running on bare metal.) >> >>Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in >>moving code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what >>language would be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: >>A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. >>The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, >>relative and sequential files are used.) >>Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they >>would with DIBOL. >>The language would need to support "include" files. >> >>Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to >>convert. I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't >>hold me to it. >> >>The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported >>to the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I >>continued to generate correct code. >> >>A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor and >>support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to start >>down the correct road first. The languages which I first thought >>would meet the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and COBOL. >>This doesn't strictly rule out others, and it would seem prudent to >>choose a language which is also supported on Itanium. >> >>I await your wisdom. >> > > > Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to 150 > concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 in the > morning, when many reports are being run in batch in addition to > interactive use. Is there some reason why some of these reports couldn't be run overnight instead of from 8 AM to 10 AM?? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:14:54 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: Tad Winters wrote in news:Xns9A40C9524A999staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: > Tad Winters wrote in > news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: > >> Let me start by saying, this is _not_ meant to start a war over >> programming languages. I'm after honest, technical answers. >> >> I've done some work for a small company who happens to use some >> custom software, written largely in DIBOL, with the rest in MACRO. >> The custom forms editor generates additional MACRO code and DIBOL >> "include" files. >> >> They've been using a single VAX system with an HSD30 for storage. >> The system runs rather slowly at times and this both frustrates the >> users and probably causes some customers to consider other >> suppliers. The system has been tuned many times, without any >> appreciable improvement. >> >> I would like to propose they move to an AlphaServer, however since >> DIBOL is not available for Alpha, the standard answer would be >> Synergy DBL. Since Synergy charges for a runtime license, this is >> a show stopper. They would be looking at more than $20,000 for >> Synergy DBL alone. >> >> I did mention that CHARON-VAX might be a possibility, but I'm not a >> huge fan of subjecting a stable operating system to running atop >> something much less stable. (Too bad CHARON-VAX is not an emulator >> running on bare metal.) >> >> Now to the meat of my question. If a person was interested in >> moving code from DIBOL to another language (on OpenVMS), what >> language would be the best choice? Keep these details in mind: >> A runtime license cost isn't going to fly. >> The language will need to support RMS file types (since indexed, >> relative and sequential files are used.) >> Calls to subroutines written in MACRO will need to work like they >> would with DIBOL. >> The language would need to support "include" files. >> >> Somebody will probably ask how many lines of code there are to >> convert. I'm going to guess between 300,000 and 350,000, but don't >> hold me to it. >> >> The routines directly written in MACRO have previously been ported >> to the Alpha processor, so as to MACRO, I'd only need to be sure I >> continued to generate correct code. >> >> A certain number of the DIBOL programs comprise the forms editor >> and support applications, which I would port first. I'd like to >> start down the correct road first. The languages which I first >> thought would meet the requirements are FORTRAN, BASIC, Pascal, and >> COBOL. This doesn't strictly rule out others, and it would seem >> prudent to choose a language which is also supported on Itanium. >> >> I await your wisdom. >> > > Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to 150 > concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 in the > morning, when many reports are being run in batch in addition to > interactive use. There are 120 detached processes performing (or > waiting to perform) specific application functions. The system is > also running MultiNet V4.4. I'd love to get this all upgraded, but > there's no way that would fly without guaranteed significant > performance improvement. If upgrading is the way to go, then it > seems like it would be best to make as much a jump as possible. > Thanks. > And one more thing. This is a VAX 4000-600A. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:36:01 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in news:47AFC674.1030105@comcast.net: > Tad Winters wrote: >> Tad Winters wrote in >> news:Xns9A409E8123299staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11: >> >> Perhaps I should mention that this is VMS V7.1. There are up to >> 150 concurrent users. The worst time is usually between 8 and 10 >> in the morning, when many reports are being run in batch in >> addition to interactive use. > > Is there some reason why some of these reports couldn't be run > overnight instead of from 8 AM to 10 AM?? > I believe these vary from day to day. We're talking about reports having to do with Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, General Ledger and their very customized Distribution Management. If they planned ahead, they could request the reports be run overnight, but this is a group of order takers and warehouse people. Most of their work is reaction to orders being placed. The few who could help by planning are those who work the accounting applications and those who do purchasing. This is certainly worth a try. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:25:21 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: DIBOL to Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in news:47AFADB9.10708@comcast.net: > > You didn't say what model VAX they were using. Some were painfully > slow, others were much faster. Knowing the Model of the VAX, we > might be able to suggest a substantially faster machine. A faster > machine might very well require more "License Units"! OTOH, > rewriting 350,000 lines of code in a new language, supported on the > Alpha and/or Itanic, is probably going to cost seven to ten man > years of effort. > > The other approach, the one that you asked about; is another > language. You can code just about anything, in just about any > language! Languages have both strengths and weaknesses. The > language that was great for doing Fourier Transforms would have to > be bent out of shape to write accounts receivable and vice versa of > course. > > The only widely available languages that might be close to DIBOL (a > language I know almost nothing about) are COBOL and PL/1. I believe > that PL/1 is available for Alpha; I don't know if it's available for > Itanic. > > I think that, if you cost this out carefully, you may find that a > $20,000 license is small change compared to the rest of it! > The last pricing I saw on a one user compiler license was $1995. That's a far better price than $20,000. I know this could take a lot of hours, but if I could convert the smallest application, I think I could motivate someone else to help the in the process. This would be good experience for similar work at another company, which isn't having any performance problems, but would like the comfort of having easily replaced hardware in the case of a disaster. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:58:24 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Hack contest Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Phaeton [mailto:phaeton@nsw.chariot.net.au] > Sent: February 8, 2008 12:19 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: OT: Hack contest > > > http://www.news.com/2102-1002_3-6229577.html?tag=3Dst.util.print > > > Vista, Leopard, Linux to compete in hack contest. > > ------------------------ > > I wonder why VMS is not there... :-) > > Cheers, Csaba > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| > http://csabaharangozo.blogspot.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]: > > The bigger the front, the bigger the back. Could not resist .. its kind of like a number of corner stores arguing over which store has better security and then someone asking why they do not compare their security to the bank down the street. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:54:07 +1030 From: Jeremy Begg Subject: Re: IA64 VMS installation DVD creation. Message-ID: <47AFBFD7.2090003@vsm.com.au> Hello Fred, > When BACKUP sees the file GPT.SYS (and SYS$EFI.SYS) it knows that the volume > is a bootable Integrity disk. When you restore the backup it will call > SETBOOT to create valid GPT.SYS boot information. > > So yes, a system disk can be backed up and restored and will be bootable > (note that you will need to update any saved boot entry data to allow it to > be automatically booted from the EFI menu). > > In fact, you should be able to restore a installation DVD to a disk and it > should work. > > What you can't do is *reliably* create a bootable DVD without knowing the > magic needed to create the El Torito boot information. We are looking at > providing a way for a customer to do this for the handful of legitimate uses > for it. Thanks for that explanation, which makes a lot of sense and explains why my recent efforts to build a bootable DVD failed. FWIW, the reason I want to do this is to create a "standaone backup" DVD. This is essentially a copy of the VMS distribution disc, set up so that instead of displaying an installation menu, it runs a command procedure to backup (and optionally restore) all the system's hard disks. I've provided a similar disc to some of my VMS support customers so they can backup and/or defragment their Alpha systems. Regards, Jeremy Begg (replace nospam by jeremy to reply) > wrote in message > news:6bfa964c-4cc5-4409-b1c4-57d37db909f1@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com... > On 13 Jan, 19:22, "P. Sture" wrote: > >>In article <1arij.34009$Ux2.964@attbi_s22>, >>"John E. Malmberg" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>P. Sture wrote: >> >>>>If we look at other operating systems, you can download various Linux >>>>and Unix variants and Solaris for PC systems. >> >>>>However, you cannot do that (except as an early adoptor perhaps) for >>>>Windows, OS X and probably quite a few others. In this regard VMS is >>>>the >>>>same. The only times I have acquired an early release of VMS were via >>>>a >>>>non-official looking tape from the local DEC/Compaq/HP office. >> >>>If you have the appropriate level MSDN contract with Microsoft, all of >>>their products are available for download, both current and pre-release >>>versions. >> >>>Microsoft charges more for actually shipping the CD-ROMS/DVDs. >> >>I stand corrected. >> >>-- >>Paul Sture >> >>Sue's OpenVMS >>bookmarks:http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html- Hide >>quoted text - >> >>- Show quoted text - > > > Following John M's comments further up this thread, I am right in > thinking that it's ok backing up an installed system disk using BACKUP/ > IMAGE/NOALIAS and this will give a working disk when restored, aren't > I? > > Steve > > --  ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:25:57 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006AAA00852573EB_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" That is strange, but DCL_CHECK will tell you: LND-E, line does not start with "$". burley+news@encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) wrote on 02/10/2008 12:34:34 PM: > $!TEST.COM > $ if "''p1'" .eqs. "" > .and. "''p2'" .nes. "" > $ then write sys$output "true" > $ endif > $ exit > > $ @test > true > > Er, ok, I forgot the continuation "-" at the end of line 2, but why > no error for line 3? It seems that DCL silently eats lines following > an IF until it finds a line with a leading $. It's the same in all > the VMS versions I've tried, is this a well known feature or a long > standing bug? > @MGRUTIL:DCL_CHECK TEST.COM -*- Charlie Hammond's unsupported DCL checker (Version V3.4) -*- Checking file JAM316:[CM_PROD]TEST.COM;1 10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.11 Checking for DCL_CHECK$ logicals... No translation for logical name DCL_CHECK$* Starting Pass 1 -- 10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.59 ... Starting Pass 2 -- 10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.85 ... Starting Pass 3 -- 10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.90 ... Procedure contains: 6 total lines 5 code lines (including 0 lines (0%) w/ comments) 0 additional continuation lines 0 lines w/i $DECK/$EOD pairs 1 comment only lines (20% of code lines) 0 blank lines 1 diagnostics LINE CODE --DIAGNOSTIC MESSAGE-- 3 LND-E line does not start with "$" -*- END OF LISTING -*- 10-FEB-2008 14:18:27.56 > $!TEST1.COM > $ if 1 > I want an error here! > I should get an error here? > $ then write sys$output "true" > $ endif > $ exit > > $ @test1 > true > --=_alternative 006AAA00852573EB_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

That is strange, but DCL_CHECK will tell you:  
LND-E, line does not start with "$".

burley+news@encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) wrote on 02/10/2008 12:34:34 PM:

> $!TEST.COM
> $ if "''p1'" .eqs. ""
>   .and. "''p2'" .nes. ""
> $ then write sys$output "true"
> $ endif
> $ exit
>
> $ @test
> true
>
> Er, ok, I forgot the continuation "-" at the end of line 2, but why
> no error for line 3? It seems that DCL silently eats lines following
> an IF until it finds a line with a leading $. It's the same in all
> the VMS versions I've tried, is this a well known feature or a long
> standing bug?
>


@MGRUTIL:DCL_CHECK TEST.COM

-*- Charlie Hammond's unsupported DCL checker (Version V3.4) -*-
Checking file JAM316:[CM_PROD]TEST.COM;1
10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.11

Checking for DCL_CHECK$ logicals...
No translation for logical name DCL_CHECK$*

Starting Pass 1 -- 10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.59 ...
Starting Pass 2 -- 10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.85 ...
Starting Pass 3 -- 10-FEB-2008 14:18:26.90 ...

Procedure contains:      6 total lines
                         5 code lines (including 0 lines (0%) w/ comments)
                         0 additional continuation lines
                         0 lines w/i $DECK/$EOD pairs
                         1 comment only lines (20% of code lines)
                         0 blank lines
                         1 diagnostics

 LINE  CODE  --DIAGNOSTIC MESSAGE--

    3  LND-E  line does not start with "$"

-*- END OF LISTING -*-   10-FEB-2008 14:18:27.56

> $!TEST1.COM
> $ if 1
> I want an error here!
> I should get an error here?
> $ then write sys$output "true"
> $ endif
> $ exit
>
> $ @test1
> true
>
--=_alternative 006AAA00852573EB_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:12:35 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006EEF3E852573EB_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Graham, This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be perilous to DCL). Are you planning to report it? -Norm burley+news@encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) wrote on 02/10/2008 12:34:34 PM: > $!TEST.COM > $ if "''p1'" .eqs. "" > .and. "''p2'" .nes. "" > $ then write sys$output "true" > $ endif > $ exit > > $ @test > true > > Er, ok, I forgot the continuation "-" at the end of line 2, but why > no error for line 3? It seems that DCL silently eats lines following > an IF until it finds a line with a leading $. It's the same in all > the VMS versions I've tried, is this a well known feature or a long > standing bug? > > $!TEST1.COM > $ if 1 > I want an error here! > I should get an error here? > $ then write sys$output "true" > $ endif > $ exit > > $ @test1 > true > --=_alternative 006EEF3E852573EB_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Graham,

This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be perilous to DCL).
Are you planning to report it?

-Norm


burley+news@encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) wrote on 02/10/2008 12:34:34 PM:

> $!TEST.COM
> $ if "''p1'" .eqs. ""
>   .and. "''p2'" .nes. ""
> $ then write sys$output "true"
> $ endif
> $ exit
>
> $ @test
> true
>
> Er, ok, I forgot the continuation "-" at the end of line 2, but why
> no error for line 3? It seems that DCL silently eats lines following
> an IF until it finds a line with a leading $. It's the same in all
> the VMS versions I've tried, is this a well known feature or a long
> standing bug?
>
> $!TEST1.COM
> $ if 1
> I want an error here!
> I should get an error here?
> $ then write sys$output "true"
> $ endif
> $ exit
>
> $ @test1
> true
>
--=_alternative 006EEF3E852573EB_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:28:36 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Iffy DCL IF Message-ID: <4819b3fb-0275-4933-af41-9b9419ea6a83@i72g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Feb 10, 3:12 pm, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > Graham, > > This surely looks like a reportable bug (although fixing it might be > perilous to DCL). Why might it be perilous to DCL? [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:27:44 -0800 (PST) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: SSH SOCKS forwarding Message-ID: <5299e573-055d-41fc-b77b-ebb841ba5b72@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com> I'm trying to set up a SOCKS forward via my VMS (8.3, HP TCP/IP Services, default SSH install). I manage to log in OK (I'm using public key auth only, but this shouldn't matter I think) to the box from outside, but when I try to forward any connections via SOCKS the client seems to fail - silently, i.e. no error message on either the client or the server side, simply no connection is made. I've got AllowTcpForwarding set to yes in [TCPIP $SSH.SSH2]SSHD2_CONFIG. Any ideas? Sampsa PS: The identical client command line works with my OS X Server box with no problems, it's basically: ssh -i bob.privatekey -D 3128 bob@chimpy (with SOCKS forwarding listening on port 3128 on the client). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 06:41:50 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: Hi Arne, > <5000 according to http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/200801/ ! C'mon! You know there's much more than 5K out there, it's just that they've all been consolidated in the global "Apache" statistic :-) Cheers Richard Maher "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:47a50bfa$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > Richard Maher wrote: > > Just curious as to how many commercial organizations are running VMS (+/- > > WASD,Apache,OSU) as their primary web-facing http server. Even if we limit > > to sample to "only those sites that already had VMS for other applications" > > I don't believe the percentage wpuld get anywhere near double figures, do > > you? > > <5000 according to http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/200801/ ! > > Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:28:20 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: Hi Mark, > Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck > eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET > Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 > offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than > Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available > and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is > supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. Now I'm dissappointed :-( If someone with your abilities, attention to detail, and seeming fathomless desire to read anything and everything, cannot understand one of the basic tenets of the Tier3 architecture then the documentation must be in a sorry shape indeeed. Please (re)read chapter 2 in the Tier3 Client/Server Development manual http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/tier3_031.pdf and get back to me. I think the key words are *No client-specific software required!*. If you want to use .NET then go crazy! Anyone, and everyone, can talk to Tier3 application servers using standard TCP/IP Sockets (or DECnet interface) with whatever tools they require or desire. ActiveX controls? I love it! - Java Sockets? Can't get enough of it! C+ BSD Sockets? Mad for it! VMS System Services? I'm over the moon! I ( with heaps of help from the likes of the very talented Bojan Nemec's and Arne's of the world) provided a Java Applet example because I thought it might be useful for VMS sites to be able to automatically distribute their client GUI application over the web at the click of a button. No more cumbersome client-software rollouts and upgrades. (As well as the usual Tier3 benefits of complete integration with the VMS security model, transparent multi-threading, and TP load-balancing) Silly me, hey? Now, the Flex SDK has rudimentary Socket support but as I don't see Adobe ever dropping the requirement for a JRE anytime real soon, I see no problem with using the Java code (or something like it) that you'll also find in the t2$examples directory. I *really, really, really* want to provide an Asynchronous Socket client example using JSObject (maybe tick over a stock-price, or perhaps an OPCOM message) and I *really, really, really* want to incorporate the Flex-Ajax Bridge to deliver Flex Charting examples, but with absolutely bugger-all help from HP/VMS (as usual) it's having to go on the back-burner as I am fortunate enough to be involved with a Linux/Java/SOAP development that with be talking to one of the main travel CRSs. (And of course an IA64 version if HP would sell me an Itanium box at the same price they are forcing them on others) Anyway, gotta go. . . Cheers Richard Maher PS. WRT Silverlight, please search this group for why I (FWIW) think it is definitely *not* the way to go. Microsoft for one (and I'm sure there's more) know that HTTP is a poorly performing, insecure, piece of shit when it comes to an application middleware protocol, and now with Silverlight's "I can't believe it's not butter (or AJAX in this case)" perhaps they'll be able to deliver a high-performance propritary solution under the covers after the initial handshake. On Jan 12, 12:07 pm, Mark Daniel wrote: > Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > >>Hmmm. Perhaps > > >> Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3. > > >>or > > >> Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit - T3SIT > > >>:-) > > >>Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and leave VMS > >>an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction? > > >>Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end up > >>finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren. > > > My God, I'm transparent! How long has this been going on? > > > Look, at the end of the day, I can't believe I'm having to defend the > > concept of "logging-on" to some people! Or the fact that having a 1:M > > relationship between Application Server Connections and Messages Exchanged > > is also a good thing. (Here's an idea for an additional stats field for > > WASD; "HTTP 1.1 requests per connection". > > HTTPd ...uma.es:80 > Server Statistics (HTTPe:80) > Saturday, 12-JAN-2008 03:59:50 > 8< snip 8< > Request Processing > ------------------ > 8< snip 8< > Connection Request HTTP > ---------- ------- ---- > Total: 1956677 Total: 7625722 1.1: 5953591 (84%) > Current: 7 Current: 1 1.0: 1133162 (16%) > Peak: 735 Peak: 586 0.9: 91 (0%) > 8< snip 8< > Persistent /Total: 5219968 > /Max: 509 > Pipeline /Total: 12971 > /Max: 60 > 8< snip 8< > > > (Internet bloody Explorer gives me > > 3 connections to receive a single Applet :-( bizarre)) > > The browser *is* the GUI (maybe even the OS?) but that does not mandate a > > http web-server being the application middleware back-bone! Expedient, > > ubiquitous, "easy" - yes, but "right" no way! (Leaving to one side security > > and high-performance for the moment) > > > Just watch what Microsoft is doing with SilverLight and control of server > > interaction, and also Adobe, Oracle, IBM and BEA. Web-Servers are great at > > serving up files and pimping for applications, but once the introductions > > have been made, you should put the Sow's ear down and start sowing with > > silk! > > Ok, you've mentioned Silverlight. Not trying to teach you how to suck > eggs (not knowing myself) but you must have considered how a .NET > Framework front-end might provide an infrastructure for all that Tier3 > offers? Arguably it has a greater installed and developer base than > Java. There are also open-source compatibility environments available > and in-development. And it answers that ubiquitous question, "Is is > supported on Win32?" Just my AU$0.05 FWIW. > > > Whether you choose to call it a Portal, a Consolidator, or a Broker, your > > application server *is* something that you'll log-on and maintain a > > connection to. I just see no reason why that Application Server isn't VMS. > > VMS has the security, reliability, disaster tolerence, and clustering > > superiority that could give it the-edge in the server arena; it's just a > > shame it's not happening (and hasn't been for over 10 years :-() Call me > > crazy, but if Tier3 can give you Context-Rich, Connection-Oriented, > > client-interaction coupled with Transparent Load-Balancing and Network > > Communication, and Integrated VMS Authentication on the server-side, then I > > also think that's a good thing! All any Application Server that you write > > (in any 3GL) will consist of is 6 User Action Routines built into a > > Shareable Image - That's it! No aditional privileges reqd, your server(s) > > run a a VMS detached process under the username that you select, a Persona > > matching the client's credentials is made available to your 3GL routines in > > order to aid in access control, and full VMS Debugger faciliities are at > > your disposal. Add to that the fact that each Application can be tuned and > > configured independantly by your System Manager, and it's all gravy!!! > > > Anyway, you and the cast of thousands at the IMM team are free to persue VMS > > Middle Management's "Year Zero" program and send all the corrupt legacy > > 3GL/DCL/SystemService/Macro coders out of the decadent cities and into the > > pure, unsullied, Java-OO-and-http paddy-fields. Sooner or later those > > wankers have to realize that it's the revenue that the cities generate > > that's keeping them, and VMS, afloat? Sadly, by that stage, I suspect we'll > > all be lying in those paddy fields with plastic bags over our heads :-( > > >>(suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little* fun of > >>your sometime glossolalia Richard :-) > > > I've found it best to err on the side of caution when it comes to slagging > > people off with your reckless throw away lines :-) A bit of empathy never > > hurt anyone you know. I'm mean next you'll be saying something like > > "Sachin's (pick a close relative)'s an Untouchable"; and where will it all > > end then eh? > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > PS. I would have sworn that "glossolalia" was a word you just made up; and > > yet how appropriate, humorous, and still cutting on so many levels. > > High praise indeed! Received with due humility. ;-) > > > I suggest you drink more and read less :-) > > Sage advice at the end of my annual leave! Prosit!! > > > > > "Mark Daniel" wrote in message > >news:13ob3863rj19iaf@corp.supernews.com... > 8< snip 8< > >>Credulity kills. > >>[Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World] > > -- > The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in > politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for > it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where > fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely > solar system. The history of our study of our solar system shows us > clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong, and that > fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources. > [Carl Sagan; quotation from the Cosmos television series] ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.083 ************************