INFO-VAX Tue, 05 Feb 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 71 Contents: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: F$UNIQUE library function Help with OpenVMS - Apache - User Login Through the Browser Re: Help with OpenVMS - Apache - User Login Through the Browser Re: HP to close Nashua (ZKO) Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Feb 2008 00:39:54 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <60ppiqF1s0tqlU4@mid.individual.net> In article <47a51275$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <47a0853c$0$6335$607ed4bc@cv.net>, >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>> In article <60bbhnF1q7tesU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> And yet here they had 4 VMS managers for two machines. While I, singlehandly, >>>> managed 50 Windows Workstations, 4 Windows servers (including AD) and 14 Unix >>>> Servers. And for a few years there were also 2 VMS systems, a RSTS system >>>> and an Ultrix-11 system. So much for yet another VMS myth. >>> Because that is how it was structured where you are does not necessarily >>> indicate that it is that way elsewhere. You need to stop performing your >>> statistical analysis on a sample space on one. >> >> Why? If it's good enough for everyone else here, why not me? It only >> takes one counter-example to disprove this constant claim that it takes >> more people to manage other OSes than VMS. It doesn't. > > It only takes one counter example to disprove that it *always* > take more people to manage non-VMS than VMS. > > One counter example does not disprove that it *at average* > take more people to manage non-VMS than VMS. Maybe so, but it also does not make it true. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 2008 00:48:04 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <60pq24F1s0tqlU5@mid.individual.net> In article , pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) writes: > In article <60bbhnF1q7tesU1@mid.individual.net>, > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>In article <47A07521.8010507@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> Tad Winters wrote: >>>> >>>> Perhaps. When you consider that a experienced and qualified VMS person >>>> can manage more VMS systems than a Windows person - that's my >>>> experience - it should be worth more pay. >>>> >>> > >>And yet here they had 4 VMS managers for two machines. While I, singlehandly, >>managed 50 Windows Workstations, 4 Windows servers (including AD) and 14 Unix > >>Servers. And for a few years there were also 2 VMS systems, a RSTS system >>and an Ultrix-11 system. So much for yet another VMS myth. >> > > Says something about the quality of the people, eh? Or what they have convinced their management to give them. :-) (One of these admins was well known to many people here and I have no doubt he could have done the job himself.) > > Bet you could've added the 2 VMS systems into your workload without > much of a problem. Yeah, or another 20 Unix systems. Or twop more labs of Windows workstations or 5 more Windows servers. What's your point? > > Of course it the System Manager was also the helpdesk for VMS and had > 1000 or 2000 users... The I forgot my password calls can occupy > an entire individual. Nope, they have a real help[less]desk for that kind of stuff. > > I've found working Sysadmin at a University is very different than in > the commercial sector... or development shop/research lab. You know, I keep hearing that here which just goes to show how little people here know about what it takes to run a University. It's not all students. we have Accounts receivable, Accounts Payable, Payroll, General Ledger, all the stuff other businesses have. And then, on top of that, we have the academic side. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 2008 00:49:32 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <60pq4sF1s0tqlU6@mid.individual.net> In article , pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) writes: > In article <607745F1p97p1U1@mid.individual.net>, > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>In article , >> Keith Parris writes: >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>> If the demand for VMS were all that great, there would be no need for a >>>> clone. >>> >>> One could analogously say: "If the demand for UNIX were all that great, >>> there would be no need for Linux." but that wouldn't make sense, either. >>> >>> Linux (or *bsd if you prefer) provided things no proprietary/Legacy UNIX >>> could or can today: open source freedom and the removal of dependency on >>> any single vendor. >>> >>>> The future is Windoze on the desktop and Windows and/or Unix in the data >>>> center. >>> >>> Linux is more likely than UNIX in the datacenter in the future. >>> >>> But I feel there is room for another OS in the mix: a reliable >>> open-source alternative to these operating systems -- one which is by >>> careful design secure (no viruses), has high availability, and great >>> clustering ability. One which could be seen as an alternative to the >>> older, tired choices. >> >>I agree. So, when do we start a cloning project for RSTS/E on x86 >>hardware? >> > > Tomorrow. Just let me know when your BasicPlus compiler's ready. > I would think a BasicPlus compiler for RSTS would be a lot easier to do than a Bliss compiler for VMS. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 2008 01:00:28 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <60pqpbF1s0tqlU7@mid.individual.net> In article <47a50fba$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <479e82c7$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >> Arne Vajhøj writes: >>> So you think the free VMS should be profit maximizing - OK that >>> gives another perspective on things. >> >> Well, it has been a profit center all its life, free is nice, but how >> much of what you truly need to run a successful business is? Maximizing? >> Not sure what your trying to say, but if it is going to survive, and >> advance to keep relevant in a rapidly changing industry it is certainly >> going to needc to earn enough to support that development. Let's not >> confuse the HP business model for VMS with reality. > > HP is having difficulties making money on VMS. > > Almost all OS vendors has problems making money on OS'es. IBM seems to have made a pretty good comeback from the grave. > > It could make a little tiny bit of sense to try and make > VMS survive as a free OS. > > There are no chance that a VMS clone would make it > commercially. Pretty pessimistic attitude. I don't agree. > >>> The best thing to do then is nothing at all. >> >> Why? That just guarantees that VMS will go away. > > Loosing a couple of hundred millions of dollars making > a commercial clone would not make a difference. "Not sure you would have to invest "hundred millions of dollars" I doubt there is anywhere near that in Linux. > >>> Sure. If your intention is to create a closed source version of *BSD, >>> then you have a good reason for preferring the BSD license over GPL. >> >> If the intent is to make commercially viable product, sometimes that >> is necessary. And if the long term survival and advancement of a >> product is the desire, there has to be money to do that. When you >> can only sell one copy you either have to price it prohibitively high >> or go out of business. Unless your willing to violate the GPL (as a >> number of people have and continue to do) and risk being that first >> court case that tests the legal validity of the GPL. > > GPL software seems to live rather well. Linux and MySQL are > much more widely used than *BSD and PostgreSQL. And, as I have stated before the reason for that is not the license, it's the marketing. when was the last time you saw an ad for any of the BSD's? Or PostgreSQL? Or a article in a trade journal? Doesn't this sound like another OS we are all familiar with? > >>> For the rest then it is just ego. >> >> Seems to me that all the ego is in the Stalman camp. > > I see lots of *BSD people spending more time bashing GPL than > actually doing something productive. Say what? You don;t consider the fact that they provide a much more technically superior product as something productive? The only thing they don't do is advertise!! > > >>>>>> It is not yet bug-free, but it can compile the i386 userspace. The >>>>>> big benefit of it (apart from that it's BSD licensed, for license >>>>>> geeks :-) is that it is fast, 5-10 times faster than gcc, while still >>>>>> producing reasonable code. The only optimization added so far is a >>>>>> multiple-register-class graph-coloring register allocator, which may >>>>>> be one of the best register allocators today. Conversion to SSA >>>>>> format is also implemented, but not yet the phi function. Not too >>>>>> difficult though, after that strength reduction is high on the list. >>>>> Compiling 10 times faster with almost no optimization does not >>>>> match what you wrote very well. > >>> Try read the description of pcc I quoted again. >>> >>> Performance is definitely not the reason the want pcc. >> >> Huh? >> >> "The big benefit of it (...cut out irelevant license commenti...) >> is that it is fast, 5-10 times faster than gcc," >> >> Sounds like a performance difference to me!! > > You are not reading it correct. > > It is compiling much faster but doing less optimizations. > > In my book performance is about the speed if the generated > code not about the speed of the compilation process. > Well, depending on what you actually get from those optimizations, maybe sometimes raw compilation speed is important. Ever tried to do a "build world" on a VAX with a system with gcc as the compiler? :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 2008 01:10:47 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <60prcmF1s0tqlU8@mid.individual.net> In article <47a51136$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Keith Parris writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> Think if it were a "Zero acquisition price" pure open source project it >>>> would be a dismal failure. >>> Sshhhh! You're spoiling the illusion! It's Open Source, so it's free! >>> Free! Free, I say! >>> >>> A successful Open Source business model these days seems to involve a >>> two-pronged approach: giving away a low-end, unsupported version for >>> free while providing a high-end version with support for a dollar cost. >>> This preserves the illusion of being "free" (in terms of acquisition >>> cost), preserves the perception of being "free" in terms of open source >>> availability, while providing sufficient money for development and >>> support. Red Hat, Novell (SuSE), and MySQL seem to be examples of >>> reasonably successful businesses built using this sort of model. >> >> Yes, but if you choose the GPL you have to either give away the >> high-end version as well or cheat on the license. That is one >> of the reasons I have stated that the GPL is no good if there is >> an interest in a project actually lasting long enough to accomplish >> something worthwhile. > > Wrong. > > If you look at the companies mentioned above they all live > of GPL'ed open source products. You want to buy a bridge? > > They live of support not a closed source high end version. Really? So, where do I download all the sources and binaries for RedHat Enterprise 5 Server? > > In MySQL's case the use of GPL even make it easier to sell > their code under a commercial license. Do you realize how silly that sounds? Under the GPL you can never sell moree than one copy of any product because your customer is free to give it away to everyone. You can sell service and support, but then, so can everyone else who gets a copy of your code. Not a very promising business model, unless you actaully feed your family by working nights at WallMart. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:45:45 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: F$UNIQUE library function Message-ID: <47a7b1b2$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> John Wallace wrote: > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message > news:47a64e04$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... >> John Wallace wrote: >>> Readers who aren't aware of >>> the MS Action Pack may want to look at >>> https://partner.microsoft.com/40013779 (or wherever) for background. >> Same concept as DSPP. > > Same concept as DSPP? Only if you're ignoring the details... > > DSPP: aiui, not intended to be used to run the business on, you need real > licences for that (aiui). > > MS Action Pack: run the business on it. See the web pages - you get real > server licences, and real client licences in moderate quantity. Ah. I see. Maybe HP should steal that idea ! > Which one is the better deal? How can they afford it without grossly ripping > off real customers? MS have some products they make "some" money on. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:17:11 -0600 From: "Muehlbauer, Jeffrey" Subject: Help with OpenVMS - Apache - User Login Through the Browser Message-ID: <7E217FB53AC87848B38C5D908EA320D8D590F4@mail2.corp.com> Hi, I'm hoping for some help regarding logging into VMS through Apache Web = Server (CSWS). Before installing Apache I had WASD installed and was = able to have my users log into and view files in their home directory. = I did this by entering http://server/~ in the browser and it took them = to their SYS$LOGIN directory. Does anyone know how to do this with Apache? My MRP runs on OpenVMS and = I'd like my users to be able to run a report and view it from within the = browser. I've made the appropriate changes (I think) to = APACHE$ROOT:[CONF]HTTPD.CONF, created the directory [.PUBLIC_HTTP] under = the users home directory (and set the protections) and created the = HTACCESS file, I just cant log in through the browser. Any help that anyone could provide would be appreciated. Thanks Jeffrey J. Muehlbauer Director, Information Technologies Artistic Carton Company 1975 Big Timber Road Elgin, Illinois=A0 60123 Main:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (847) 741-0247 Fax:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (847) 741-8529 Direct:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (847) 717-1950 Cell:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 (630) 430-4756 E-Mail:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 jmuehlbauer@artisticcarton.com=20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:28:14 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Help with OpenVMS - Apache - User Login Through the Browser Message-ID: <08020415281459_2062A39A@antinode.org> From: "Muehlbauer, Jeffrey" > I've made the appropriate changes (I think) to = > APACHE$ROOT:[CONF]HTTPD.CONF, created the directory [.PUBLIC_HTTP] under = > the users home directory (and set the protections) and created the = > HTACCESS file, What were those "appropriate changes"? > I just cant log in through the browser. What happens when you try what? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 12:33:28 -0800 (PST) From: DaveG Subject: Re: HP to close Nashua (ZKO) Message-ID: <9da584f2-d2a7-4484-954b-84f877a25ef7@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Feb 4, 9:02=A0am, "FredK" wrote: > While ZKO was home for a long time, I and many others felt the Mill was th= e > true heart of DEC and "Mecca". =A0While I will mourn the move from ZKO - I= > won't take as hard as the loss of the Mill. =A0Life went on then, and it w= ill > go on now. > > "JF Mezei" wrote in message > > news:47a551a3$0$16158$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > > > > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >> But I'm not saying that the collection isn't impressive, I'm just sayin= g > >> that > >> it's not impressive enough to be a world wide landmark (yet). > > > Nobody outside of the VMS community knows what "ZKO" is. It certaintly > > isn't a world landmark. But inside the VMS community, ZKO is like Mecca.= > > It was a holy site to the VMS community where the VMS gods worked their > > magic. > > > Similarly, Mr VAXman's cave isn't a world landmark, but to the > > comp.os.vms community, it is a landmark.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well said (as usual) Fred. I also believe that the Mill was DECs' Mecca. And I don't recall hearing stories of "sheep stuff" lingering at ZKO, but at the Mill........ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) From: Winfield Hill Subject: Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Message-ID: <71f9ea5d-aa15-40c2-9262-5e1506a0b63f@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com> On Feb 4, 1:36 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I know that we've entered an age where most publications are done > electronically over the web. Heck, Gary Taubes wrote a story > mentioning me and an electronic publishing brouhaha in the early 90's. > > But... Today I found my name cited in a patent, not for any hoity- > poity scholarly work I've done, but FROM A USENET POST I MADE. > > That's right, Usenet posts are now making up the references in > patents. > > And it's not like the writers of the patent put this reference in and > it somehow slipped through: THE PATENT EXAMINER ADDED A REFERENCE MY > USENET POST TO THE PATENT APPLICATION. > > This is just fucking bizarrely weird. It's not like I'm the original > developer of anything. I've just used a lot of different technologies > over the years - sometimes I mention them to help someone else out. I > just quoted the online help from an OS I had used. I had no idea that > my post would go into a StorageTek patent! > > http://www.google.com/patents?id=oYwSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=... us6789161 Yep, an 8.5-year-old 1999 post at that! And the patent application was filed a year earlier in 1998, what was that all about? What'd you say in that post anyway? Must've been interesting. What do you think of the patent? Legit? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:23:55 -0600 From: "Tim Williams" Subject: Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Message-ID: And he didn't even get the date right: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_frm/thread/bfb510bb551141 28/466fb5c83d9f1f47?lnk=st&q=deleting+files+permanently#466fb5c83d9f1f47 Definetly should be fired. ;-) Tim -- Deep Fryer: A very philosophical monk. Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms "Tim Shoppa" wrote in message news:93e4e1fc-ffdf-4818-9b56-9f2e2d556017@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > I know that we've entered an age where most publications are done > electronically over the web. Heck, Gary Taubes wrote a story > mentioning me and an electronic publishing brouhaha in the early 90's. > > But... Today I found my name cited in a patent, not for any hoity- > poity scholarly work I've done, but FROM A USENET POST I MADE. > > That's right, Usenet posts are now making up the references in > patents. > > And it's not like the writers of the patent put this reference in and > it somehow slipped through: THE PATENT EXAMINER ADDED A REFERENCE MY > USENET POST TO THE PATENT APPLICATION. > > This is just fucking bizarrely weird. It's not like I'm the original > developer of anything. I've just used a lot of different technologies > over the years - sometimes I mention them to help someone else out. I > just quoted the online help from an OS I had used. I had no idea that > my post would go into a StorageTek patent! > > http://www.google.com/patents?id=oYwSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=s hoppa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 11:28:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Shoppa Subject: Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Message-ID: <79cb6ece-1d46-4379-9ae2-b63f80bb25ee@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Feb 4, 2:01=A0pm, Winfield Hill wrote: > On Feb 4, 1:36 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > > > > I know that we've entered an age where most publications are done > > electronically over the web. Heck, Gary Taubes wrote a story > > mentioning me and an electronic publishing brouhaha in the early 90's. > > > But... Today I found my name cited in a patent, not for any hoity- > > poity scholarly work I've done, but FROM A USENET POST I MADE. > > > That's right, Usenet posts are now making up the references in > > patents. > > > And it's not like the writers of the patent put this reference in and > > it somehow slipped through: THE PATENT EXAMINER ADDED A REFERENCE MY > > USENET POST TO THE PATENT APPLICATION. > > > This is just fucking bizarrely weird. It's not like I'm the original > > developer of anything. I've just used a lot of different technologies > > over the years - sometimes I mention them to help someone else out. I > > just quoted the online help from an OS I had used. I had no idea that > > my post would go into a StorageTek patent! > > >http://www.google.com/patents?id=3DoYwSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=3Dabstract&zoom= =3D... > > =A0us6789161 =A0Yep, an 8.5-year-old 1999 post at that! > =A0And the patent application was filed a year earlier > =A0in 1998, what was that all about? =A0What'd you say > =A0in that post anyway? =A0Must've been interesting. > =A0What do you think of the patent? =A0Legit The answer to all your questions: I dunno!!! All I did in the usenet post was quote the online help of an OS that I was familiar with. How the heck does that get me into a patent assigned to a big corporation? I feel a little like Homer on the Mr. Sparkle episode of the Simpsons. He finds his face on a box of Japanese dishwashing detergent ("Mr. Sparkle" brand), and doesn't know how it got there. He calls the Japanese company and gets asked "You want to invest in Mr. Sparkle?" Homer, still mystified, says "I am Mr. Sparkle!". I suspect the real reason is that a patent office examiner had to justify why he spent so much time in his office reading Usenet :-). Tim. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 11:36:09 -0800 (PST) From: Winfield Hill Subject: Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Message-ID: <7d9a797f-5e47-4424-9fb8-6e4d5eaa42cb@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Winfield Hill wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: >> I know that we've entered an age where most publications are done >> electronically over the web. Heck, Gary Taubes wrote a story >> mentioning me and an electronic publishing brouhaha in the early 90's. > >> But... Today I found my name cited in a patent, not for any hoity- >> poity scholarly work I've done, but FROM A USENET POST I MADE. > >> That's right, Usenet posts are now making up the references in >> patents. > >> And it's not like the writers of the patent put this reference in and >> it somehow slipped through: THE PATENT EXAMINER ADDED A REFERENCE MY >> USENET POST TO THE PATENT APPLICATION. > >> This is just fucking bizarrely weird. It's not like I'm the original >> developer of anything. I've just used a lot of different technologies >> over the years - sometimes I mention them to help someone else out. I >> just quoted the online help from an OS I had used. I had no idea that >> my post would go into a StorageTek patent! > >> http://www.google.com/patents?id=oYwSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=... > > us6789161 Yep, an 8.5-year-old 1999 post at that! > And the patent application was filed a year earlier > in 1998, what was that all about? What'd you say > in that post anyway? Must've been interesting. Ah, I see, you were quoting from the VMS operating system HELP files; perhaps the examiner was making a point to the applicant about that prior art. Newsgroups: comp.os.vms From: Tim Shoppa Date: 1999/05/08 Subject: Re: Q: how to delete files permanently? Zhuo Zang wrote: > Is there any way to permanently delete the files > (for some sensitive data files) ? $ help delete file /erase DELETE file /ERASE /ERASE /NOERASE (default) When you delete a file, the area in which the file was stored is returned to the system for future use. The data that was stored in that location still exists in the system until new data is written over it. When you specify the /ERASE qualifier, the storage location is overwritten with a system specified pattern so that the data no longer exists. Whether this is good enough for your particular situation or not depends, in great detail, on the requirements you have to meet and the hardware/environment that you're in. Doing a DEL/ERASE doesn't do a lot of good if the file was just backed up to tape! Tim. > What do you think of the patent? Legit? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 11:49:38 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Shoppa Subject: Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Message-ID: <8aabcc7d-cfbd-43ef-b632-e97111e6b7db@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Feb 4, 2:36=A0pm, Winfield Hill wrote: > Winfield Hill wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> I know that we've entered an age where most publications are done > >> electronically over the web. Heck, Gary Taubes wrote a story > >> mentioning me and an electronic publishing brouhaha in the early 90's. > > >> But... Today I found my name cited in a patent, not for any hoity- > >> poity scholarly work I've done, but FROM A USENET POST I MADE. > > >> That's right, Usenet posts are now making up the references in > >> patents. > > >> And it's not like the writers of the patent put this reference in and > >> it somehow slipped through: THE PATENT EXAMINER ADDED A REFERENCE MY > >> USENET POST TO THE PATENT APPLICATION. > > >> This is just fucking bizarrely weird. It's not like I'm the original > >> developer of anything. I've just used a lot of different technologies > >> over the years - sometimes I mention them to help someone else out. I > >> just quoted the online help from an OS I had used. I had no idea that > >> my post would go into a StorageTek patent! > > >>http://www.google.com/patents?id=3DoYwSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=3Dabstract&zoom= =3D... > > > =A0us6789161 =A0Yep, an 8.5-year-old 1999 post at that! > > =A0And the patent application was filed a year earlier > > =A0in 1998, what was that all about? =A0What'd you say > > =A0in that post anyway? =A0Must've been interesting. > > =A0Ah, I see, you were quoting from the VMS operating > =A0system HELP files; perhaps the examiner was making > =A0a point to the applicant about that prior art. Sure, I know something about prior art, BUT: in every patent litigation case I've been involved in prior art is not found through word-of-mouth but by actually producing the product or design documentation that is a real primary reference. Would it not have been better if he quoted and referenced an actual manual? Would someone who is a patent examiner not know how to find real actual references instead of just reading Usenet? And I honestly don't see how anything I put in that post is particularly relevant to the patent. I understand exactly the scope of what I posted, and it is at best only vaguely vaguely relevant patent, and if anything it might indicate that there is prior art invalidating it (but it doesn't even come close to doing that!) Tim. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 18:13:21 -0800 (PST) From: Winfield Subject: Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Message-ID: <6a6ad75c-c811-4d2c-a70c-fc5870e1022f@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Winfield Hill wrote: >> Winfield Hill wrote: >>> Tim Shoppa wrote: >>>> >>>> I know that we've entered an age where most publications are done >>>> electronically over the web. Heck, Gary Taubes wrote a story >>>> mentioning me and an electronic publishing brouhaha in the early 90's. > >>>> But... Today I found my name cited in a patent, not for any hoity- >>>> poity scholarly work I've done, but FROM A USENET POST I MADE. > >>>> That's right, Usenet posts are now making up the references in >>>> patents. > >>>> And it's not like the writers of the patent put this reference in and >>>> it somehow slipped through: THE PATENT EXAMINER ADDED A REFERENCE MY >>>> USENET POST TO THE PATENT APPLICATION. > >>>> This is just fucking bizarrely weird. It's not like I'm the original >>>> developer of anything. I've just used a lot of different technologies >>>> over the years - sometimes I mention them to help someone else out. I >>>> just quoted the online help from an OS I had used. I had no idea that >>>> my post would go into a StorageTek patent! > >>>> http://www.google.com/patents?id=oYwSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=... > >>> us6789161 Yep, an 8.5-year-old 1999 post at that! >>> And the patent application was filed a year earlier >>> in 1998, what was that all about? What'd you say >>> in that post anyway? Must've been interesting. > >> Ah, I see, you were quoting from the VMS operating >> system HELP files; perhaps the examiner was making >> a point to the applicant about that prior art. > > Sure, I know something about prior art, BUT: in every > patent litigation case I've been involved in prior art is > not found through word-of-mouth but by actually producing > the product or design documentation that is a real > primary reference. > > Would it not have been better if he quoted and referenced > an actual manual? > > Would someone who is a patent examiner not know how > to find real actual references instead of just reading > Usenet? > > And I honestly don't see how anything I put in that > post is particularly relevant to the patent. I understand > exactly the scope of what I posted, and it is at best > only vaguely vaguely relevant patent, and if anything > it might indicate that there is prior art invalidating it (but > it doesn't even come close to doing that!) Oh, why did I throw out my big set of VAX VMS manuals? A few comments are in order. First, the usenet can be an original source document, if one can demonstrate that the quote's date is reliable. Your quote came after the application's date, so the examiner apparently had another use in mind, namely showing common knowledge at the time, and putting readers on notice that a pre-filing document could be dredged up if necessary. As for whether the art in that document would have any impact on the application, that's not very clear now, but he must have thought so. E.g., it may well be that the patent's claims originally included hard drives, and were modified to tape drives only. Setting all that aside, the appearance of a usenet post held up as prior art is encouraging. It's often painfully difficult to show obviousness, because obvious ideas often don't get published (and they shouldn't get patented!), but hey, they may get discussed on the usenet! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:33:40 -0800 From: MakeNoAttemptToAdjustYourSet Subject: Re: OMFG. A Usenet post of mine cited in a patent Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:23:55 -0600, "Tim Williams" wrote: >And he didn't even get the date right: >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_frm/thread/bfb510bb551141 >28/466fb5c83d9f1f47?lnk=st&q=deleting+files+permanently#466fb5c83d9f1f47 > >Definetly should be fired. ;-) > >Tim Shouldn't that be "Friared"? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:57:50 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <47a76edd$0$15806$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> > No one can hold the office of Vice President that is not qualified > to the office of President (so says the US Constitution). So yes, > it applies. Thanks guys. Clear answer. Except for "natural born": Does this mean that someone born though cesarian would be ineligible for President ? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:15:30 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: >> No one can hold the office of Vice President that is not qualified >> to the office of President (so says the US Constitution). So yes, >> it applies. > > Thanks guys. Clear answer. > > Except for "natural born": Does this mean that someone born though > cesarian would be ineligible for President ? :-) There was a guy in Sweden (with too much money) that flew his wife to the US a couple of weeks before she was to "deliver", *just* so that his boy/girl shouldn't be excluded from beeing president of the USA sometimes in the future. They flew back "home" again shortly after the delivery... ------------------------------ Date: 04 Feb 2008 18:32:42 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >> No one can hold the office of Vice President that is not qualified >> to the office of President (so says the US Constitution). So yes, >> it applies. > Thanks guys. Clear answer. > Except for "natural born": Does this mean that someone born though > cesarian would be ineligible for President ? :-) Not adopted. -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ Date: 04 Feb 2008 18:34:31 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >> No one can hold the office of Vice President that is not qualified >> to the office of President (so says the US Constitution). So yes, >> it applies. > Thanks guys. Clear answer. > Except for "natural born": Does this mean that someone born though > cesarian would be ineligible for President ? :-) Sorry for the shortened answer. A child born of non-citizens does not become eligible by adoption into a family of citizens. -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:03:13 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <00A74AD8.4A7A25E3@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article <47A723AB.5090704@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >JF Mezei wrote: >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >> a serious answer. >> >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >> born in the USA. >> >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >> >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >> >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >> >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >> president ? > > >Unless I've missed something in a quick scan of the U.S. Constitution, >there are NO qualifactions prescribed for the office of Vice President. > >There may be case law on the subject. I'm not aware of any but IANAL. > >Quickly everyone! Who IS the Vice President?? This is the wrong time of the world to make jokes about the invisibility or insignficance of the Vice President. Despite spending far more time in "undisclosed locations" than any previous Veep, Mr. Cheney is considerably higher profile, and evidently more influential, than any previous Veep while in office (although Gore was also a more visible veep while *he* was in office than had been the norm up to that point.) -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:40:15 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <47A7BE7F.8050903@comcast.net> Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > In article <47A723AB.5090704@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>JF Mezei wrote: >> >>>Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >>>a serious answer. >>> >>>I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >>>born in the USA. >>> >>>Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >>> >>>Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >>>for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >>> >>>Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >>>to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >>>president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >>> >>>If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >>>speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >>>president ? >> >> >>Unless I've missed something in a quick scan of the U.S. Constitution, >>there are NO qualifactions prescribed for the office of Vice President. >> >>There may be case law on the subject. I'm not aware of any but IANAL. >> >>Quickly everyone! Who IS the Vice President?? > > > This is the wrong time of the world to make jokes about the invisibility or > insignficance of the Vice President. Despite spending far more time in > "undisclosed locations" than any previous Veep, Mr. Cheney is considerably > higher profile, and evidently more influential, than any previous Veep while in > office (although Gore was also a more visible veep while *he* was in office > than had been the norm up to that point.) > > -- Alan > His "profile" includes his "shooting" skills. Face it; the man is a klutz. His boss is a bigger klutz. My only excuse for voting for them was that I thought Al Gore was worse! As matters have turned out, Gore might have been the better choice. Thanks in large part to these two klutzes, we are embroiled in a war that we can neither win nor get out of! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:39:27 -0700 From: Maverick Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >> a serious answer. >> >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >> born in the USA. >> >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >> >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >> >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >> >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >> president ? > > JF, > > In a word: NO. > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for > President (e.g., native citizen, age). > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? Both his parents were american. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:01:17 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00737B81852573E5_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Maverick wrote on 02/04/2008 03:39:27 PM: > Bob Gezelter wrote: > > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: > >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide > >> a serious answer. > >> > >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been > >> born in the USA. > >> > >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? > >> > >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just > >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: > >> > >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going > >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as > >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? > >> > >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the > >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the > >> president ? > > > > JF, > > > > In a word: NO. > > > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for > > President (e.g., native citizen, age). > > > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in > > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, > > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and > > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth > > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). > > > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com > > McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? > Both his parents were american. Not if the birth was on embassy = US grounds. --=_alternative 00737B81852573E5_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



Maverick <Maverick@sun.org> wrote on 02/04/2008 03:39:27 PM:

> Bob Gezelter wrote:
> > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide
> >> a serious answer.
> >>
> >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been
> >> born in the USA.
> >>
> >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ?
> >>
> >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just
> >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated:
> >>
> >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going
> >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as
> >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ?
> >>
> >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the
> >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the
> >> president ?
> >
> > JF,
> >
> > In a word: NO.
> >
> > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for
> > President (e.g., native citizen, age).
> >
> > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in
> > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say,
> > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and
> > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth
> > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804).
> >
> > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
>
> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.  Does that disqualify him?
> Both his parents were american.


Not if the birth was on embassy = US grounds.
--=_alternative 00737B81852573E5_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:24:58 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <9504f183-50db-48ec-b78e-9c3e7a73245f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: > Bob Gezelter wrote: > > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: > >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide > >> a serious answer. > > >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been > >> born in the USA. > > >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? > > >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just > >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: > > >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going > >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as > >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? > > >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the > >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the > >> president ? > > > JF, > > > In a word: NO. > > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for > > President (e.g., native citizen, age). > > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in > > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, > > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and > > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth > > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). > > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com > > McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? > Both his parents were american. In 1790 the First Congress declared: "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:50:02 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0077F227852573E5_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Doug Phillips wrote on 02/04/2008 04:24:58 PM: > On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: > > Bob Gezelter wrote: > > > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: > > >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide > > >> a serious answer. > > > > >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been > > >> born in the USA. > > > > >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? > > > > >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just > > >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: > > > > >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going > > >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as > > >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? > > > > >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the > > >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the > > >> president ? > > > > > JF, > > > > > In a word: NO. > > > > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for > > > President (e.g., native citizen, age). > > > > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in > > > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, > > > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and > > > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth > > > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). > > > > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com > > > > McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? > > Both his parents were american. > > In 1790 the First Congress declared: > > "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born > beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be > considered as natural born citizens." Time to amend the Constitution to get rid of the natural born requirement and at the same time make children of illegal entrants non-citizens. The reasons for both rules is - like the helium stockpile - past its time. --=_alternative 0077F227852573E5_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



Doug Phillips <dphill46@netscape.net> wrote on 02/04/2008 04:24:58 PM:

> On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick <Maver...@sun.org> wrote:
> > Bob Gezelter wrote:
> > > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide
> > >> a serious answer.
> >
> > >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been
> > >> born in the USA.
> >
> > >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ?
> >
> > >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just
> > >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated:
> >
> > >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going
> > >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as
> > >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ?
> >
> > >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the
> > >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the
> > >> president ?
> >
> > > JF,
> >
> > > In a word: NO.
> >
> > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for
> > > President (e.g., native citizen, age).
> >
> > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in
> > > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say,
> > > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and
> > > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth
> > > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804).
> >
> > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com
> >
> > McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.  Does that disqualify him?
> > Both his parents were american.
>
> In 1790 the First Congress declared:
>
> "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born
> beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be
> considered as natural born citizens."
Time to amend the Constitution to get rid of the natural born requirement

and at the same time make children of illegal entrants non-citizens.
The reasons for both rules is - like the helium stockpile - past its time. --=_alternative 0077F227852573E5_=-- ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 2008 00:34:05 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <60pp7tF1s0tqlU2@mid.individual.net> In article <9504f183-50db-48ec-b78e-9c3e7a73245f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: >> Bob Gezelter wrote: >> > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: >> >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >> >> a serious answer. >> >> >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >> >> born in the USA. >> >> >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >> >> >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >> >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >> >> >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >> >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >> >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >> >> >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >> >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >> >> president ? >> >> > JF, >> >> > In a word: NO. >> >> > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for >> > President (e.g., native citizen, age). >> >> > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in >> > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, >> > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and >> > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth >> > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). >> >> > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com >> >> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? >> Both his parents were american. > > In 1790 the First Congress declared: > > "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born > beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be > considered as natural born citizens." As my daughter can attest as she has two birth certificates, one german and one american and she carries an American passport but is also eligible for a German one. Being female, this is not a problem, but were she in fact a male it could lead to some very interesting problems when she visits Europe (which she has done once so far since the time of her birth.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 2008 00:38:25 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <60ppg1F1s0tqlU3@mid.individual.net> In article , norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > This is a multipart message in MIME format. > --=_alternative 00737B81852573E5_= > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Maverick wrote on 02/04/2008 03:39:27 PM: > >> Bob Gezelter wrote: >> > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: >> >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can > provide >> >> a serious answer. >> >> >> >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have > been >> >> born in the USA. >> >> >> >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >> >> >> >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold > just >> >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes > incapacitated: >> >> >> >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job > going >> >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation > as >> >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term > expires) ? >> >> >> >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to > the >> >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for > the >> >> president ? >> > >> > JF, >> > >> > In a word: NO. >> > >> > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for >> > President (e.g., native citizen, age). >> > >> > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in >> > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, >> > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and >> > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth >> > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). >> > >> > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com >> >> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? >> Both his parents were american. > > Not if the birth was on embassy = US grounds. Or a military base of which there were a few in panama. What were his parents doing there at the time? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:42:32 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <47a7b0f1$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > norm.raphael@metso.com writes: >> Maverick wrote on 02/04/2008 03:39:27 PM: >>> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? >>> Both his parents were american. >> Not if the birth was on embassy = US grounds. > > Or a military base of which there were a few in panama. What were > his parents doing there at the time? McCains father was an admiral in US Navy ... Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:27:46 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <47A7BB92.5010508@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <9504f183-50db-48ec-b78e-9c3e7a73245f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Doug Phillips writes: > >>On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: >> >>>Bob Gezelter wrote: >>> >>>>On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: >>>> >>>>>Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >>>>>a serious answer. >>>> >>>>>I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >>>>>born in the USA. >>>> >>>>>Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >>>> >>>>>Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >>>>>for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >>>> >>>>>Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >>>>>to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >>>>>president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >>>> >>>>>If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >>>>>speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >>>>>president ? >>>> >>>>JF, >>> >>>>In a word: NO. >>> >>>>The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for >>>>President (e.g., native citizen, age). >>> >>>>In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in >>>>the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, >>>>problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and >>>>who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth >>>>Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). >>> >>>>- Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com >>> >>>McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? >>>Both his parents were american. >> >>In 1790 the First Congress declared: >> >>"And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born >>beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be >>considered as natural born citizens." > > > As my daughter can attest as she has two birth certificates, one german > and one american and she carries an American passport but is also > eligible for a German one. > > Being female, this is not a problem, but were she in fact a male it > could lead to some very interesting problems when she visits Europe > (which she has done once so far since the time of her birth.) > > bill > My uncle had dual U.S./Japanese citizenship, having been born in Kobe of U.S. parents. At age 21 he had to decide between the two. AFAIK it's still the case that minors must resolve dual citizenship on reaching their majority! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 20:40:04 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00099830852573E6_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Arne Vajh=F8j wrote on 02/04/2008 07:42:32 PM: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article 00737B83@metso.com>, > > norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > >> Maverick wrote on 02/04/2008 03:39:27 PM: > >>> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? > >>> Both his parents were american. > >> Not if the birth was on embassy =3D US grounds. > >=20 > > Or a military base of which there were a few in panama. What were > > his parents doing there at the time? >=20 > McCains father was an admiral in US Navy ... >=20 > Arne Richard M. Nixon was the first U.S. President born in a hospital (not at=20 home). --=_alternative 00099830852573E6_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Arne Vajh=F8j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote on 02/04= /2008 07:42:32 PM:

> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > In article <OFF0BA9F30.6721AC0A-ON852573E5.007367EE-852573E5.<= br> > 00737B83@metso.com>,
> >    norm.raphael@metso.com writes:
> >> Maverick <Maverick@sun.org> wrote on 02/04/2008 03:39:27 PM:
> >>> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.  Does that disqualify him?
> >>> Both his parents were american.
> >> Not if the birth was on embassy =3D US grounds.
> >
> > Or a military base of which there were a few in panama.  What were
> > his parents doing there at the time?
>
> McCains father was an admiral in US Navy ...
>
> Arne


Richard M. Nixon was the first U.S. President born in a hospital (not at home).
--=_alternative 00099830852573E6_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:01:23 -0700 From: Maverick Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: > On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: >> Bob Gezelter wrote: >>> On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: >>>> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >>>> a serious answer. >>>> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >>>> born in the USA. >>>> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >>>> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >>>> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >>>> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >>>> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >>>> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >>>> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >>>> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >>>> president ? >>> JF, >>> In a word: NO. >>> The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for >>> President (e.g., native citizen, age). >>> In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in >>> the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, >>> problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and >>> who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth >>> Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). >>> - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com >> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? >> Both his parents were american. > > In 1790 the First Congress declared: > > "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born > beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be > considered as natural born citizens." Thank you. Your point disproves some whack job on our local radio stations claims. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:21:35 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 000D64EA852573E6_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Doug Phillips wrote on 02/04/2008 04:24:58 PM: > On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: > > Bob Gezelter wrote: > > > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: > > >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide > > >> a serious answer. > > > > >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been > > >> born in the USA. > > > > >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? > > > > >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just > > >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: > > > > >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going > > >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as > > >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? > > > > >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the > > >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the > > >> president ? > > > > > JF, > > > > > In a word: NO. > > > > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for > > > President (e.g., native citizen, age). > > > > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in > > > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, > > > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and > > > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth > > > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). > > > > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com > > > > McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? > > Both his parents were american. > > In 1790 the First Congress declared: > > "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born > beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be > considered as natural born citizens." I believe such a child must live inside the limits of the U.S. for 5 years before attaining age 21 to claim citizenship. --=_alternative 000D64EA852573E6_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



Doug Phillips <dphill46@netscape.net> wrote on 02/04/2008 04:24:58 PM:

> On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick <Maver...@sun.org> wrote:
> > Bob Gezelter wrote:
> > > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide
> > >> a serious answer.
> >
> > >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been
> > >> born in the USA.
> >
> > >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ?
> >
> > >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just
> > >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated:
> >
> > >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going
> > >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as
> > >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ?
> >
> > >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the
> > >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the
> > >> president ?
> >
> > > JF,
> >
> > > In a word: NO.
> >
> > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for
> > > President (e.g., native citizen, age).
> >
> > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in
> > > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say,
> > > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and
> > > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth
> > > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804).
> >
> > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com
> >
> > McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.  Does that disqualify him?
> > Both his parents were american.
>
> In 1790 the First Congress declared:
>
> "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born
> beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be
> considered as natural born citizens."

I believe such a child must live inside the limits of the U.S. for
5 years before attaining age 21 to claim citizenship. --=_alternative 000D64EA852573E6_=-- ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.071 ************************