INFO-VAX Thu, 10 Jan 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 19 Contents: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: "USE" statement in Fortran Re: "USE" statement in Fortran Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Building libxml2 on OpenVMS/VAX Re: Building libxml2 on OpenVMS/VAX Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: Island Computers is moving Re: NASA gets SGI 2048-core Itanium 2 supercomputer Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <5900312a-5e5c-464e-8d9c-425f0f0246f4@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com> On Jan 9, 2:37 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > tadamsmar wrote: > > On Jan 9, 10:39 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > >>In article <8edb351d-9031-443e-b6b6-8be91c419...@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: > > >>>I sometimes get this message when I don't think there is another user. > > >>>When I try to unlock the file with "UNLOCK" is says its not locked. > > >>>I end up rebooting. > > >>>What this all about? Is there a way to avoid rebooting? > > >>What file? Perhaps it is opened by the system? > > >>$ PIPE SHOW DEVICE/FILES {ddcu:} | SEARCH SYS$PIPE {filename} > > >>There {ddcu} is the device/volume on which the file resides and {filename} > >>is the file name of the file you are accessing to get the error. > > >>-- > >>VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > >>http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > Not system files. The one's today were application files. > > You seem to be supplying an absolute minimum of useful information! > How about trying the command VAXman suggested and reporting the results! > It should show which process has the files open! Or don't report the > results and just do a STOP /ID= on the process that has the files open! > > The late Carl J. Lydick would have crucified you!!!!! Yet another gross understatement about the great Carl. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:12:50 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <6V9hj.2$kF2.0@newsfe09.lga> In article <47851452.20501@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >tadamsmar wrote: >> On Jan 9, 10:39 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >>>In article <8edb351d-9031-443e-b6b6-8be91c419...@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I sometimes get this message when I don't think there is another user. >>> >>>>When I try to unlock the file with "UNLOCK" is says its not locked. >>> >>>>I end up rebooting. >>> >>>>What this all about? Is there a way to avoid rebooting? >>> >>>What file? Perhaps it is opened by the system? >>> >>>$ PIPE SHOW DEVICE/FILES {ddcu:} | SEARCH SYS$PIPE {filename} >>> >>>There {ddcu} is the device/volume on which the file resides and {filename} >>>is the file name of the file you are accessing to get the error. >>> >>>-- >>>VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>> >>> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >>> >>>http://tmesis.com/drat.html >> >> >> Not system files. The one's today were application files. > >You seem to be supplying an absolute minimum of useful information! >How about trying the command VAXman suggested and reporting the results! >It should show which process has the files open! Or don't report the >results and just do a STOP /ID= on the process that has the files open! > >The late Carl J. Lydick would have crucified you!!!!! Well, in light of the recent thread about the late CJL, I was tempted to mention one of Carl's favorite epithets (SFB) but decided to elide it. If one comes looking for an answer here and then, one doesn't accept the answer given, he/she should be well prepared to receive some castigation for being so foolish. I believe the term was "flame." Now, for a bit of light-hearted humor in light of the late Carl J. Lydick and the eternal usenet flame, please enjoy this: Dear: [ ] Sir [ ] Spammer [ ] Twit [ ] Clueless Newbie [ ] Madam [ ] Comrade [ ] Management Baboon [ ] Idjit [ ] Kook [ ] [ ] Marketroid [ ] Obergruppenfuehrer [ ] B1FF [ ] 3L33T D00D!!! [ ] anon@penet.fi [ ] Other:_____________ I took exception to your recent post to ___(newsgroup)___ It was (check all that apply): [ ] lame. [ ] stupid. [ ] pointless. [ ] tasteless. [ ] much longer than any worthwhile thought of which you may be capable. [ ] an obvious troll. Your attention is drawn to the fact that (check all that apply): [ ] you made a ridiculously off topic post to a newsgroup. [ ] you made a ridiculously off topic post to numerous newsgroups. [ ] you obviously don't know how to read your newsgroups line. [ ] you started a long, stupid thread. [ ] you continued spreading a long, stupid thread. [ ] you crossposted a long, stupid thread. [ ] you are the subject of a long, stupid thread. [ ] what you said has been said before. [ ] and it was said better the last time. [ ] your post was a pathetic imitation of ___(net.personality)___. [ ] your post originated on FidoNet. [ ] your post originated on aol.com. [ ] your post originated on ix.netcom.com. [ ] your post originated on a FirstClass BBS. [ ] your post referred to the newsgroup as a Board, BBoard, BBS, Domain, or Notesfile. [ ] you quoted someone's whole article. [ ] and added absolutely nothing. [ ] except your .sig file. [ ] and added meaningless gibberish. [ ] specifically, your .sig file. [ ] you posted a "Check out my Web Page" article. [ ] off-topic. [ ] and your web page sucks. [ ] you posted some sort of crap that doesn't belong in this group. [ ] again. [ ] and it was boring. [ ] the first time. [ ] you posted the inanely stupid 'Make Money Fast' article. [ ] you predicted the "Imminent Death of the Net (tm)". [ ] from delphi.com. [ ] from AOL.com. [ ] from FIDOnet. [ ] you advocated Net censorship. [ ] you made one or more bigoted statements. [ ] you repeatedly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority. [ ] you are under the misapprehension that this group is your preserve. [ ] you are clearly up way past your bedtime. [ ] you seem to be under compulsion to post to every thread. [ ] your post contained the terms (check all that apply): [ ] "surf the net" [ ] "surf the web" [ ] "hacker" [ ] "warez" [ ] "cyber___(insert suffix here)___" [ ] "Information Superhighway [ ] "\C\a\b\a\l" [ ] your post contained commercial advertising. [ ] for an obvious scam. [ ] that's been posted so many times it has its own cancelbot. [ ] your post contained numerous errors in (check all that apply): [ ] spelling. [ ] grammar. [ ] fact. [ ] logic. [ ] YOUR POST CONTAINED EXCESSIVE CAPITALIZATION AND/OR PUNCTUATION!!!!! [ ] you posted a newgroup message without Leader Kibo's permission. [ ] you posted an rmgroup message without Bruce Becker's permission. [ ] you posted a test message to a non-test group. [ ] your post/letter was a forgery. [ ] a clumsy one. [ ] you used the phrase "Information Superhighway". [ ] to make a lame hiqhway-related analogy: [ ] roadkill [ ] pothole [ ] other: ____________ [ ] you asked for replies via email because you "don't read this group". [ ] you flamed someone who: [ ] has been around far longer than you. [ ] is far more intelligent and witty than you. [ ] and considering who you flamed, that's sad. [ ] your post contained HTML tags. [ ] which are not parseable under any known implementation of HTML. [ ] your lines are 80 columns wide or wider. [ ] and your editor: [ ] wrapped them, making them difficult to read. [ ] truncated them, making them impossible to read. [ ] your .sig is ridiculous because (check all that apply): [ ] it's longer than four lines. [ ] and your server truncated it. [ ] it was inserted in a posting you made "anonymously" through penet.fi. [ ] you included a stupid disclaimer. [ ] which made an attempt at being witty. [ ] and it failed. [ ] miserably. [ ] you stated you do not speak for your employer. [ ] and included the company logo. [ ] you included (check all that apply): [ ] a stupid self-quote. [ ] a stupid quote from a net.nobody. [ ] a Rush Limbaugh quote. [ ] an Adolf Hitler quote. [ ] a Dan Quayle joke. [ ] a reference to Beavis & Butthead. [ ] one or more lame ASCII graphics (check all that apply): [ ] USS Enterprise [ ] Australia [ ] AT&T logo [ ] bicycle [ ] Bart Simpson [ ] other:____________ Furthermore: [ ] you have greatly misunderstood the purpose of ___(newsgroup)__ [ ] you have greatly misunderstood the purpose of the net. [ ] you are a loser. [ ] *plonk* [ ] you must have spent your life in a Skinner box to be this clueless. [ ] this has been pointed out to you before. [ ] twice. [ ] more than twice. [ ] you appear to be an idiot. [ ] you appear to be a raving lunatic. It is recommended that you: [ ] stick to FidoNet and come back when you've grown up. [ ] stop reading __(newsgroup)__ and get a life. [ ] learn to type. [ ] consume excrement. [ ] consume excrement and thus expire. Additional comments: From: http://www.jaedworks.com/shoebox/flame.html -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:57:02 -0800 (PST) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <4b302219-4047-46c4-91ef-c84e7f672676@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jan 9, 1:37=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > tadamsmar wrote: > > On Jan 9, 10:39 am, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > >>In article <8edb351d-9031-443e-b6b6-8be91c419...@j20g2000hsi.googlegroup= s.com>, tadamsmar writes: > > >>>I sometimes get this message when I don't think there is another user. > > >>>When I try to unlock the file with "UNLOCK" =A0is says its not locked. > > >>>I end up rebooting. > > >>>What this all about? Is there a way to avoid rebooting? > > >>What file? =A0Perhaps it is opened by the system? > > >>$ PIPE SHOW DEVICE/FILES {ddcu:} | SEARCH SYS$PIPE {filename} > > >>There {ddcu} is the device/volume on which the file resides and {filenam= e} > >>is the file name of the file you are accessing to get the error. > > >>-- > >>VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 VAXman(at)TMESIS(do= t)COM > > >> =A0"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > >>http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > Not system files. =A0The one's today were application files. > > You seem to be supplying an absolute minimum of useful information! > How about trying the command VAXman suggested and reporting the results! > It should show which process has the files open! =A0Or don't report the > results and just do a STOP /ID=3D on the process that has the files open! > > The late Carl J. Lydick would have crucified you!!!!!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Remember, I rebooted. I don't have any files in this odd state. If I ever find another one I will get back to you. This is a problem that pops up every few years or so in different context. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:04:50 -0800 (PST) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <903c790b-be18-4501-b97e-1c752f5c2a3f@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jan 9, 11:48=A0am, Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > On Jan 9, 10:29=A0am, tadamsmar wrote: > > > I sometimes get this message when I don't think there is another user. > : > > What this all about? > > It means that the file is currently in use and that the current user > did not allow active shared used. This is ALWAYS an application/usage > issue, never an OpenVMS problem. > > Typically it is an other process using the file, with the same or an > other username. In that sense the error message is slightly > misleading. > > Sometimes, for poorly written applications, the message can even occur > when the same user, in the same process erroneously tries to re-open > an already opened file. > > >> Is there a way to avoid rebooting? > > Yes, always. See which process has the file open ($show dev/file), and > make it stop, either by gentle exit or brute force (stop/id). > > I fact it is very very rare to ever have to reboot an OpenVMS system > to correct an 'error'. > > If you are supposed to manage this application, then please consider > learning something, anythign, =A0about Openvms and / or find someone in > your environment with some prio experience and ejoy the ride! > > Cheers, > Hein. All the processes that use the file had been shutdown by a process that had worked hundreds of times before, and worked again after I rebooted. I have about 27 years of VMS experience. I had just never figured out why files report being locked sometimes when all the processes that lock them have (apparently) exited or have been stopped. It happens rarely and I had never bothered to look into it. Anyway, the next time I have the problem I will explore it using the tools that have been mentioned in this thread. Thanks to all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:22:41 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: tadamsmar wrote: > I have about 27 years of VMS experience. And never done a "$show dev xxxx/file" ? That's odd. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:41:06 -0800 (PST) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <27dc118e-97da-4803-8f21-2f4a40afe467@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jan 9, 4:22=A0pm, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > tadamsmar wrote: > > I have about 27 years of VMS experience. > > And never done a "$show dev xxxx/file" ? > > That's odd. > > Jan-Erik. I don't recall if I have ever done that. I don't have an everyday need to know what files are open on a device. It might not be useful for these mystery locks, since I think I know that the processes that locked the files were gone and the unlock command said the files were not locked. But I will try it when I get another one. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:33:44 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: In article <903c790b-be18-4501-b97e-1c752f5c2a3f@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: >{...snip...} >All the processes that use the file had been shutdown by a process >that had worked hundreds of times before, and worked again after I >rebooted. > >I have about 27 years of VMS experience. I had just never figured out >why files report being locked sometimes when all the processes that >lock them have (apparently) exited or have been stopped. It happens >rarely and I had never bothered to look into it. > >Anyway, the next time I have the problem I will explore it using the >tools that have been mentioned in this thread. > >Thanks to all. Well, if it happens again, "Give a hoot and don't reboot!" Run the command that I posted. If you still can't find an associated process or some reason for this reported FLK error, let those of us here know and we can help you to finally diagnose it. Rebooting, to me, is like doing an engine rebuild when you've got an under inflated tire (or tyre if you are reading on the other side of the big murky water hole). -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:35:21 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: tadamsmar writes: >I sometimes get this message when I don't think there is another user. >When I try to unlock the file with "UNLOCK" is says its not locked. >I end up rebooting. >What this all about? Is there a way to avoid rebooting? Others have already told you about $ SHOW DEV/FILE. If you're in a cluster, you may have to do that on every node in the cluster until you find the culprit. Forget about the UNLOCK command. Completely. Pretend it doesn't exist. It was created for some PDP-11 compatibility mode and ceased being useful about 20 years ago, and will never unlock the normal "locked" file on VMS. If you really need to peek at a file locked by another process and don't want to stop the process or (GAG!)reboot, you can make a copy of it by either $ CONVERT/SHARE or $ BACKUP/IGNORE=INTERLOCK src dest. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:39:23 +0100 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <4785af92$0$85787$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> If this is in a cluster you must do the 'show dev/files' command from all nodes in the cluster. A file may only be seen from the node that opened it. Also, the 'unlock' command has nothing to do with the lock that you see, it will only unlock a file when a file is locked for deaccess. See $ help unlock or $ help set file /unlock Jur. tadamsmar wrote, On 9-1-2008 22:41: > On Jan 9, 4:22 pm, Jan-Erik Söderholm > wrote: >> tadamsmar wrote: >>> I have about 27 years of VMS experience. >> And never done a "$show dev xxxx/file" ? >> >> That's odd. >> >> Jan-Erik. > > I don't recall if I have ever done that. > > I don't have an everyday need to know what files are open on a > device. It might not be useful for these mystery locks, since I think > I know that the processes that locked the files were gone and the > unlock command said the files were not locked. But I will try it when > I get another one. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:57:40 -0800 (PST) From: "winston19842005@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <26e60ac2-0753-40f8-8bfc-9581649f1af0@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jan 9, 8:35 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > tadamsmar writes: > >I sometimes get this message when I don't think there is another user. > >When I try to unlock the file with "UNLOCK" is says its not locked. > >I end up rebooting. > >What this all about? Is there a way to avoid rebooting? > > Others have already told you about $ SHOW DEV/FILE. > If you're in a cluster, you may have to do that on every node in the > cluster until you find the culprit. > > Forget about the UNLOCK command. Completely. Pretend it doesn't exist. > It was created for some PDP-11 compatibility mode and ceased being useful > about 20 years ago, and will never unlock the normal "locked" file on > VMS. > > If you really need to peek at a file locked by another process and > don't want to stop the process or (GAG!)reboot, you can make a copy of > it by either $ CONVERT/SHARE or $ BACKUP/IGNORE=INTERLOCK src dest. As my memory fails, I seem to remember going into a utility and executing a command, something about show channels, after a set command to setup the file or disk (can't remember) you were interested in... Can anybody "reboot" my memory here? I remember it gave me more details than a show dev/files... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:48:04 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: "USE" statement in Fortran Message-ID: <47855d29$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= >> /MODULE=dir >> >> maybe. > > Or /INCLUDE=(dir[,...]). See HELP FORTRAN /INCLUDE: I am conservative and prefer to use /INCLUDE for include files and /MODULE for modules. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:49:37 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: "USE" statement in Fortran Message-ID: <47855d86$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> David_Murphy@murphyfamily.org wrote: > On Jan 8, 11:28 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: >> (It's amazing how out-of-date my Fortran knowledge is.) > > Where's Steven Lionel when you need him? ;-) > > Actually, where *is* Steven Lionel? It's been a long time.... He is working for Intel. I doubt that the VMS compiler is high on Intels priority list. He is active in comp.lang.fortran ! Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:26:15 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <4785742b$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> gaoshan.wang@gmail.com wrote: > I am in china right now, and have been talking with venture capitals > recently, probably can get 100m us$ to start up provided we have the > ability. There is a big OS market developing in china right now, > people hate crappy micro$oft products, often refering to toxic waste > with tainted blue screen:) The middle class population is estimated > about 10B in next 5-10years, this is true from my observation. If > everyone spend 100 bucks on a robust OS, the total market is 300B us$ > if os refreshes every 3 years. China currently has about 1.3 billion people. It is estimated to be 1.4-1.6 in 2025. So by assuming a middle class of 10 billion in 5-10 years is way way off. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:28:42 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <478574bf$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> David J Dachtera wrote: > gaoshan.wang@gmail.com wrote: >> If you are interested, please send me your resumes etc, we can talk >> from there, don't worry about compensation stuff ( we can pay you as >> much as you could imagine as long as you can delivery ) telecommunting >> should be fine as well. my email address >> gaoshan.wang_no_spam_please@gmail.com > > I notice that he OP has not returned to collect "responses". He can have read responses without replying. > I wonder if anyone e-mailed him back directly... I can not see a reason why anyone would. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:50:11 +1030 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <13ob3pc52itbi14@corp.supernews.com> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: > >> gaoshan.wang@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> If you are interested, please send me your resumes etc, we can talk >>> from there, don't worry about compensation stuff ( we can pay you as >>> much as you could imagine as long as you can delivery ) telecommunting >>> should be fine as well. my email address >>> gaoshan.wang_no_spam_please@gmail.com >> >> >> I notice that he OP has not returned to collect "responses". > > > He can have read responses without replying. > >> I wonder if anyone e-mailed him back directly... > > > I can not see a reason why anyone would. > > Arne Call me a cynic but surely the "send me your resumes" is a dead give-away! -- We've tended in our cosmologies to make things familiar. Despite all our best efforts, we've not been very inventive. In the West, Heaven is placid and fluffy, and Hell is like the inside of a volcano. In many stories, both realms are governed by dominance hierarchies headed by gods or devils. Monotheists talked about the king of kings. In every culture we imagined something like our own political system running the Universe. Few found the similarity suspicious. [Carl Sagan; Pale Blue Dot] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:21:04 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Building libxml2 on OpenVMS/VAX Message-ID: <478572f6$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> yyyc186 wrote: > Moving forward from the current Ubuntu base, you add on Logicals, > ACL's, and clustering. This will require some kernel gutting and a > break from the shared kernel of other distros. You will still be able > to use the Debian distribution packaging, but the installer will need > to be modified. It is by definition impossible to create VMS based on Ubuntu. The best you can hope for is a VMS look-a-like. And I doubt that is interesting for many. BTW, Ubuntu would be a very bad choice for starting distro - it is created for maximum functionality to compete with Windows. > Once a stable kernel with Logicals, ACL's, and clustering is in place, > you then set about developing a DCL shell with Lexical functions. Peoples definition of kernel varies, but I find it hard to come up with one that includes ACL's. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:22:14 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Building libxml2 on OpenVMS/VAX Message-ID: <4785733a$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> yyyc186 wrote: > You need to start with a known base and work forward. AMD 64-bit > chips are now the industry standard. Intel, to paraphrase Vin Diesel, > is the KG-used-to-Be of chip makers. ???? Try look at the calendar - it says 2008 not 2005. Intel is completely dominating the PC market at this time and AMD has huge problems. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:02:53 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <47851A5D.7020903@comcast.net> Michael Kraemer wrote: > In article <5ukdtrF1iidjbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes: > > >>Difference in cost comes immediately to mind. I would guess difference >>in performance may play in the equation, too. > > > One might think that it is certainly not good advertisement, > if one of the main outlets of "mission critical VMS" gear > refrains from using that same gear for his own critical business. > A cook refusing to eat his own food comes to mind ... A cook might have good reason not to sample his own work; diabetes and allergies come to mind immediately. A good reason not to use VMS would be that it ties up saleable merchandise, both hardware and licenses! A PC running Windoze or Linux would do the job for far less money even if it lacked something in reliability. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:15:22 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: In article <47851A5D.7020903@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >Michael Kraemer wrote: >> In article <5ukdtrF1iidjbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >> Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >>>Difference in cost comes immediately to mind. I would guess difference >>>in performance may play in the equation, too. >> >> >> One might think that it is certainly not good advertisement, >> if one of the main outlets of "mission critical VMS" gear >> refrains from using that same gear for his own critical business. >> A cook refusing to eat his own food comes to mind ... > >A cook might have good reason not to sample his own work; diabetes and >allergies come to mind immediately. As a diabetic, I sample what I cook. Where is the problem with that? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:39:22 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <478530FA.4030701@comcast.net> VAXman- wrote: > In article <47851A5D.7020903@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> >>Michael Kraemer wrote: >> >>>In article <5ukdtrF1iidjbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >>>Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Difference in cost comes immediately to mind. I would guess difference >>>>in performance may play in the equation, too. >>> >>> >>>One might think that it is certainly not good advertisement, >>>if one of the main outlets of "mission critical VMS" gear >>>refrains from using that same gear for his own critical business. >>>A cook refusing to eat his own food comes to mind ... >> >>A cook might have good reason not to sample his own work; diabetes and >>allergies come to mind immediately. > > > As a diabetic, I sample what I cook. Where is the problem with that? > > If it were high in sugar. . . .? Yeah, yeah, yeah! A small sample wouldn't hurt, but who can stop at a small sample. . . . ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 2008 21:20:52 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <5uks5kF1ihmhmU1@mid.individual.net> In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > In article <47851A5D.7020903@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> >>Michael Kraemer wrote: >>> In article <5ukdtrF1iidjbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >>> Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>> >>>>Difference in cost comes immediately to mind. I would guess difference >>>>in performance may play in the equation, too. >>> >>> >>> One might think that it is certainly not good advertisement, >>> if one of the main outlets of "mission critical VMS" gear >>> refrains from using that same gear for his own critical business. >>> A cook refusing to eat his own food comes to mind ... >> >>A cook might have good reason not to sample his own work; diabetes and >>allergies come to mind immediately. > > As a diabetic, I sample what I cook. Where is the problem with that? You probably only cook for yourself. I think most people here would have taken the term "cook" in light of a professional (as we were talking about business and not personal use of VMS). If you were diabetic and and a donut cook at Krispy-Kreme I doubt you would spend the day sampling your wares. At least not if you planned to make it to retirement. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:28:42 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > A good reason not to use VMS would be that it ties up saleable > merchandise, both hardware and licenses! A PC running Windoze or Linux > would do the job for far less money even if it lacked something in > reliability. I don't quite understand this cost issue. I would not compare it to the cost of a PC solution but to the overall cost (they move to a more expensive area !) or to the cost of an ad campaign. Using a couple of surplus alphas can't be *that* expensive. They seem to have enough of them to give them away on a quarterly basis, it seems. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:46:55 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <478540CF.6030105@comcast.net> Michael Kraemer wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > >> A good reason not to use VMS would be that it ties up saleable >> merchandise, both hardware and licenses! A PC running Windoze or >> Linux would do the job for far less money even if it lacked something >> in reliability. > > > I don't quite understand this cost issue. > I would not compare it to the cost of a PC solution > but to the overall cost (they move to a more expensive area !) > or to the cost of an ad campaign. > Using a couple of surplus alphas can't be *that* expensive. > They seem to have enough of them to give them away on a > quarterly basis, it seems. > The software licenses, which they do NOT give away, are probably worth more than a lot of the hardware! I own a set of licenses for VMS and layered products that came with my Alphastation 200. The licenses are, and were, worth more than what I paid for the machine. I bought the beast about twelve-fifteen years ago when somebody was doing a final close-out. Might have been DEC. Anyway I got VMS, NAS150, MMOV, Open3d and a couple of others. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:28:27 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: In article <478530FA.4030701@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >VAXman- wrote: >> In article <47851A5D.7020903@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>> >>>Michael Kraemer wrote: >>> >>>>In article <5ukdtrF1iidjbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >>>>Gunshannon) writes: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Difference in cost comes immediately to mind. I would guess difference >>>>>in performance may play in the equation, too. >>>> >>>> >>>>One might think that it is certainly not good advertisement, >>>>if one of the main outlets of "mission critical VMS" gear >>>>refrains from using that same gear for his own critical business. >>>>A cook refusing to eat his own food comes to mind ... >>> >>>A cook might have good reason not to sample his own work; diabetes and >>>allergies come to mind immediately. >> >> >> As a diabetic, I sample what I cook. Where is the problem with that? >> >> > >If it were high in sugar. . . .? >Yeah, yeah, yeah! A small sample wouldn't hurt, but who can stop at a >small sample. . . . Me. ...and I was just at the endo yesterday and things aren't so great, so I will certainly be avoiding and excesses of the small sample. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:29:56 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > The software licenses, which they do NOT give away, are probably worth > more than a lot of the hardware! Of course I'm not in Island's shoes and I don't know how much such a license would cost, but I find it hard to imagine that it would be a significant fraction of their overall cost. It would be sort of advertising and even if VMS is not the most economical solution for a Webserver, it's the psychology that counts here, not MBA mathematics. On a related issue, I still remotely remember when some guy from Island bragged about how they trashed an alpha and how much better its Windoze replacement is. Even if true, I can't think of a more devastating negative advertising for a small company whose business depends on VMS and related hardware. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:34:44 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <8_bhj.738$Gn1.204@newsfe12.lga> In article <5uks5kF1ihmhmU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >{...snip...} >your wares. At least not if you planned to make it to retirement. Never entered my mind. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:40:25 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <47854D59.7010202@comcast.net> Michael Kraemer wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > >> The software licenses, which they do NOT give away, are probably worth >> more than a lot of the hardware! > > > Of course I'm not in Island's shoes and I don't know > how much such a license would cost, but I find > it hard to imagine that it would be a significant fraction > of their overall cost. > It would be sort of advertising and even if VMS is not > the most economical solution for a Webserver, > it's the psychology that counts here, not MBA mathematics. > On a related issue, > I still remotely remember when some guy from Island bragged > about how they trashed an alpha and how much better its > Windoze replacement is. Even if true, I can't think > of a more devastating negative advertising for a small > company whose business depends on VMS and related hardware. > The last I heard, the licenses, with "units" for a workstation were about $1500 each. VMS Base, VMS User, DECWindows, UCX, . . . . It adds up quickly! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:08:12 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > The last I heard, the licenses, with "units" for a workstation were > about $1500 each. VMS Base, VMS User, DECWindows, UCX, . . . . > > It adds up quickly! Well, how many such boxes does one need for a decent service ? I find it hard to imagine that the associated licenses would exceed a low five digit figure. (and, BTW, it is beyond my comprehension that commodity stuff like DECwindows and a TCP/IP stack which have seen little development for ages still are charged extra) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 2008 23:26:30 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <5ul3h6F1it6j4U2@mid.individual.net> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > >> A good reason not to use VMS would be that it ties up saleable >> merchandise, both hardware and licenses! A PC running Windoze or Linux >> would do the job for far less money even if it lacked something in >> reliability. > > I don't quite understand this cost issue. > I would not compare it to the cost of a PC solution Why not? If a PC (hardware) can replace the much more expensive Alpha. > but to the overall cost (they move to a more expensive area !) > or to the cost of an ad campaign. The question was why were they not using VMS and WASD for their webservers. That has nothing to do with moving to a more expensive area or an ad campaign. > Using a couple of surplus alphas can't be *that* expensive. > They seem to have enough of them to give them away on a > quarterly basis, it seems. What does a commercial VMS license cost? What does a Linux License cost? What does a BSD License cost? get the picture now? Unless VMS and WASD offered something that they could not get with any other platform then they made the right choice. Somehow, I doubt they have money to just throw away. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:40:45 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <47855be9$0$15757$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Re: Island running on Windows. Instead of blasting Island for not running VMS, you should be blasting the owners of VMS on why they are not pushing VMS as a simple turn-key solution for SMBs like Island. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:36:17 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: <47856881.8000801@comcast.net> Michael Kraemer wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb: > >> The last I heard, the licenses, with "units" for a workstation were >> about $1500 each. VMS Base, VMS User, DECWindows, UCX, . . . . >> >> It adds up quickly! > > > Well, how many such boxes does one need for a decent service ? > I find it hard to imagine that the associated licenses would > exceed a low five digit figure. My data on pricing is several years old! Has anybody bought license recently? > (and, BTW, it is beyond my comprehension that commodity > stuff like DECwindows and a TCP/IP stack which have seen > little development for ages still are charged extra) > > This IS H-P we're dealing with! Do you really expect to pay anything less than top dollar? They don't need you for anything; selling ink keeps them fat and happy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:45:54 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in news:5ul3h6F1it6j4U2@mid.individual.net: > In article , > Michael Kraemer writes: >> I don't quite understand this cost issue. >> I would not compare it to the cost of a PC solution > > Why not? If a PC (hardware) can replace the much more expensive > Alpha. > >> but to the overall cost (they move to a more expensive area !) >> or to the cost of an ad campaign. > > The question was why were they not using VMS and WASD for their > webservers. That has nothing to do with moving to a more expensive > area or an ad campaign. > >> Using a couple of surplus alphas can't be *that* expensive. >> They seem to have enough of them to give them away on a >> quarterly basis, it seems. > > What does a commercial VMS license cost? What does a Linux License > cost? What does a BSD License cost? get the picture now? Yet 4 years ago, www.islandco.com was running Tru64. There was certainly some investment in that. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:55:45 -0600 From: David Douthitt Subject: Re: NASA gets SGI 2048-core Itanium 2 supercomputer Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org says... > In article <49f32980-721c-49bf-aada-1295efbce55d@w40g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck writes: > But almost everything we do at the Goddard Space Flight Center is > science. JPL does most of the deep space missions, GSFC does most > of the earth orbiting missions; every other NASA installation (JPL > is actually a contractor) has its specialty. > > So why haven't you heard of the GSFC science missions? Because > the Hubble Space Telescope is the only one of them the media pays > any attention enough for its name to be recognised. Its NASA's > number one PR machine as well as one hell of a good science resource. Wired had a nice writeup about how NASA's budget is wasted on all of the popular and widely covered space missions instead of used for Earth missions. The author suggested less funding for something like the Mars missions and more on terrestrial research such as the oceans, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:53:25 GMT From: "Alistair J. Ross" Subject: Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 Message-ID: Thanks to all (especially VaxMan) for your excellent help on this matter. I'll be sure to read the FAQ thoroughly now that I know where to find it and then give this a try over the next few days. Steven M. Scweda wrote: >"VAXStation 3100" is less complete than it could be. If it doesn't >say "Mxx" on the front, it's probably a 30 or 40 (the oldest). Nope, it doesn't say anything. Big grey box with Digital VaxStation 3100. That's the lot. Not that interested with this box anyway so no biggie, it's just a basic workstation (or so I believe). and... > Eventually, you may wish to get a Hobbyist CD-ROM kit and licenses, >and do a fresh installation, instead of using whatever was left by the >previous owner. (See the FAQ.) Alas, that's not going to be a realistic possibility. This beast is of the vintage just prior to CD-ROM. It contains one TK-70 tape drive and two noisy sounding hard drives, it also has 2 add on boards with what look like Centronics-style ports on them. I'm not sure what these are for yet. I would also imagine that installation of an operating system the size of VMS (even an old one) would still be impossible via Serial Link at 19200bps. Once I've managed to break into this thing, the next thing I will want to do is see if I can get it to play on my Ethernet based network. I'm guessing at the moment it'll only speak DecNET. I don't even know whether VMS was designed to speak anything else than DecNET, or how compatible other OS's are with DECNet (I believe there is some OSS implementation now available for Linux on Freshmeat), however I guess I'll find as much information in the FAQ. Thanks again everyone! Ali On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:27:54 +0000, VAXman- wrote: > In article , "Alistair > J. Ross" writes: >> >> >>Hi All, >> >> This is my first post to this newsgroup so please don't flame me (too >>much) if I've got the wrong group. >> >>I'm really excited this week because I'm a big collector of all old kit >>and I have, until now, never owned *any* Digital Equipment other than a >>crazy old line printer which went bust many years ago. >> >>I now am the proud owner of a MicroVAX 3300, and also a VAXStation 3100. >>Unfortunately the 3100 has no hard drive so I'll need to work out >>something later with that. I have therefore concentrated my efforts to >>the MV and noticed that the boot indicator went to 3, not 0, meaning it >>wasn't booting fully. I didn't have a compatible console cable, so it >>sat there for 4 lonely weeks unused until I could get my hands on an MMJ >>to RJ11 cable (which I then plugged into an RJ11 -> RS232 converter). I >>opened up minicom on my Linux boxen, figured out how to boot the thing >>at the '>>>' prompt (>>>boot dia0) and here I am - a fresh user into the >>world of VMS. It works! I'm amazed the hard drives still spin fresh >>after all these years. I've seen many MFM/RLL & SCSI drives of similar >>vintage die horrible deaths at less years than this. >> >>Next problem: I've been googling for a while today trying to find out if >>VMS has such a thing as a single user mode (like in Unix so I can >>circumvent the login prompt), or even a default system password. At the >>moment, all that greets me is the following: >> +�������������������������������+ | >> | >> | VAX 3300 | >> | | >> | Welcome To GSi Exel II | >> | | >> | Ashdown Garage | >> | | >> +�������������������������������+ > > Looks like some message from the former owner of the box. > > >>Username: GUEST >>Password: >>User authorization failure >> >> >>I have no idea what GSi Exel II and Ashdown Garage are, but I'm guessing >>this is some sort of motd file and not some specialist shell. >> >>Can anyone point me in the right direction of a FAQ or provide suitable >>instructions as to a) how I might log/break in to this system and b) >>where I can find a VMS manual for 'Completely Hapless User'/Unix User >>that has no clue about VMS? >> >>I am so interested in the world of VMS & Digital, and now, finally I >>have my first bit of kit - I've always wanted to find out why all the >>VMS Admins I've spoken to in years gone by laughed at my love for UNIX! >> >>Thanks in advance for any help. > > > Search for the OpenVMS FAQ, many bits in there about breaking in. Since > you have the machine and access to the console, you can do it. Easiest > way, push the little button on the MV which has a circle with a triangle > inside. This should drop you to the console prompt. Enter: > >>>> B/1 > > You should eventually set a SYSBOOT> prompt. > > At the SYSBOOT> enter > > SYSBOOT> SHOW STARTUP > > Remember this file for use possible use later. > > Now, enter: > > SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0: > > and... > > SYSBOOT> CONTINUE > > This will run until you get a DCL prompt: $ > > At this point, things are very *unforgiving*. I usually recommend > typing > > $ SPAWN > > This creates a subprocess so that if you make an error you will not be > logged out immediately. > > at the $ after spawn: > > $ @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP > > You should be in SYS$SYSTEM IIRC, if not: $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM > Then... > > > $ MCR AUTHORIZE > UAF> MODIFY SYSTEM/PASSWORD=newpassword/NOPWDEXP UAF> EXIT > > Now you can reboot and you should be able to get into the system > account. From that point, you can do most anything. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:28:39 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 Message-ID: <08010917283984_206002CA@antinode.org> From: "Alistair J. Ross" > >"VAXStation 3100" is less complete than it could be. If it doesn't > >say "Mxx" on the front, it's probably a 30 or 40 (the oldest). > > Nope, it doesn't say anything. Big grey box with Digital VaxStation 3100. > That's the lot. Ok. If it's about 10cm (4 inches) high, it's probably a Model 30. If it looks as if it can hold full-height drives, it's probably a Model 40. There's normally an actual model number on the back. > Not that interested with this box anyway so no biggie, > it's just a basic workstation (or so I believe). It probably has better SCSI capability than the Q-bus system. This capability may become valuable as you get further along. > > Eventually, you may wish to get a Hobbyist CD-ROM kit and licenses, > >and do a fresh installation, instead of using whatever was left by the > >previous owner. (See the FAQ.) > > Alas, that's not going to be a realistic possibility. This beast is of > the vintage just prior to CD-ROM. See SCSI note, above. Actually, there was a Q-bus card (KRQ50?) which connected to a non-SCSI CD-ROM drive, but they're rare, and the associated CD-ROM drive (RRD50?) was no great prize, either. > It contains one TK-70 tape drive and > two noisy sounding hard drives, See SCSI note, above. Cheap, large, working SCSI disk drives are also commonly available. > it also has 2 add on boards with what > look like Centronics-style ports on them. I'm not sure what these are for > yet. Look for "M" numbers on the card handles. Some cards also have info stamped into their metal frames. Given an "M" number, Google can usually find useful info. It was a popular connector, used for SCSI and serial port cards, among other things. > I would also imagine that installation of an operating system the > size of VMS (even an old one) would still be impossible via Serial Link > at 19200bps. You may be able to find someone local (more than I, anyway) who could supply TK50 (or TK70) tapes for a classical (that is, slow) VMS installation from tape. Or you can make a cluster with the SCSI-equipped VAXstation. (OS installation over a serial line may not be practical, but you can make a DECnet link over one. Ethernet'd be faster, though.) > Once I've managed to break into this thing, the next thing I will want to > do is see if I can get it to play on my Ethernet based network. I'm > guessing at the moment it'll only speak DecNET. I don't even know whether > VMS was designed to speak anything else than DecNET, or how compatible > other OS's are with DECNet (I believe there is some OSS implementation > now available for Linux on Freshmeat), however I guess I'll find as much > information in the FAQ. That's only software. TCP/IP kits (free-to-hobbyist, even) are available from multiple sources. Do a hardware inventory, and find out with what you're working. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:02:40 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 Message-ID: In article , "Alistair J. Ross" writes: > > >Thanks to all (especially VaxMan) for your excellent help on this matter. Welcome. >I'll be sure to read the FAQ thoroughly now that I know where to find it >and then give this a try over the next few days. > >Steven M. Scweda wrote: > >>"VAXStation 3100" is less complete than it could be. If it doesn't >>say "Mxx" on the front, it's probably a 30 or 40 (the oldest). > >Nope, it doesn't say anything. Big grey box with Digital VaxStation 3100. >That's the lot. Not that interested with this box anyway so no biggie, >it's just a basic workstation (or so I believe). > >and... > >> Eventually, you may wish to get a Hobbyist CD-ROM kit and licenses, >>and do a fresh installation, instead of using whatever was left by the >>previous owner. (See the FAQ.) > >Alas, that's not going to be a realistic possibility. This beast is of >the vintage just prior to CD-ROM. It contains one TK-70 tape drive and >two noisy sounding hard drives, it also has 2 add on boards with what >look like Centronics-style ports on them. I'm not sure what these are for >yet. I would also imagine that installation of an operating system the >size of VMS (even an old one) would still be impossible via Serial Link >at 19200bps. I don't think I have the capability anymore to make a TK70. I can read them but the drive won't write them. If I could, I'd make you a tape. As for the drives, I wonder if they are ESDI. I remember the uVAXes in the DoD labs with ESDI drives -- not that the interface makes them loud but they all tended to be rather noisy. >Once I've managed to break into this thing, the next thing I will want to >do is see if I can get it to play on my Ethernet based network. I'm >guessing at the moment it'll only speak DecNET. I don't even know whether >VMS was designed to speak anything else than DecNET, or how compatible >other OS's are with DECNet (I believe there is some OSS implementation >now available for Linux on Freshmeat), however I guess I'll find as much >information in the FAQ. Install TCP/IP. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:17:54 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: New Member to newsgroup: Hi and All about VMS on MV 3300 Message-ID: <47857242.C4670875@spam.comcast.net> "Alistair J. Ross" wrote: > > Thanks to all (especially VaxMan) for your excellent help on this matter. > I'll be sure to read the FAQ thoroughly now that I know where to find it > and then give this a try over the next few days. > > Steven M. Scweda wrote: > > >"VAXStation 3100" is less complete than it could be. If it doesn't > >say "Mxx" on the front, it's probably a 30 or 40 (the oldest). > > Nope, it doesn't say anything. Big grey box with Digital VaxStation 3100. Hhmmm... VAXstations were typically in beige boxes, though I suppose this could have been repackaged by a third-party vendor. Look on the back for labels with model numbers. Those will be useful in identfying what you have. For example, a MicroVAX 3100 I have here identifies itself as DV-31DTA-A via the model number. > That's the lot. Not that interested with this box anyway so no biggie, > it's just a basic workstation (or so I believe). > > and... > > > Eventually, you may wish to get a Hobbyist CD-ROM kit and licenses, > >and do a fresh installation, instead of using whatever was left by the > >previous owner. (See the FAQ.) > > Alas, that's not going to be a realistic possibility. This beast is of > the vintage just prior to CD-ROM. It contains one TK-70 tape drive and > two noisy sounding hard drives, it also has 2 add on boards with what > look like Centronics-style ports on them. I'm not sure what these are for > yet. I would also imagine that installation of an operating system the > size of VMS (even an old one) would still be impossible via Serial Link > at 19200bps. Well, if you could arrange it, I suppose patience -IS- a virtue. At one time VAX/VMS could be installed from 5-1/4 inch diskettes! VMS up to about V7.2 for VAX was available on 2 TK50 tapes (TK70 is read-compatible with TK50). That said, at least one of those "Centronics-style" ports may be a SCSI-I bus (single-endded, narrow SCSI) and a CD-ROM drive in an external enclosure would be very doable. Google for RRD42. You may even find one on eBay. > Once I've managed to break into this thing, the next thing I will want to > do is see if I can get it to play on my Ethernet based network. I'm > guessing at the moment it'll only speak DecNET. I don't even know whether > VMS was designed to speak anything else than DecNET, or how compatible > other OS's are with DECNet (I believe there is some OSS implementation > now available for Linux on Freshmeat), however I guess I'll find as much > information in the FAQ. Perhaps, but adjust your paradigm a bit. Yes, DECnet is provided with VMS; however, it need not be installed. VMS runs quite happily stand-alone with no network stack at all installed. That said, a TCP/IP stack formerly known as "UCX" (now known as "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS", hence, some of us still use the older, (MUCH!) shorter name) is available from HP(Compaq(DEC)), and it's license is now "bundled" with the base o.s. license; that is to say, you are permitted to register/load the UCX Product Activation Key (PAK for short) so long as you have a valid license for the base o.s. The Hobbyist license qualifies there; thus, a hobbyist can install the current "UCX" and use the UCX PAK. There are also two third-party TCP/IP stacks: Multinet (formerly from TGV and later owned briefly by Cisco) and TCPware from Process Software (http://www.process.com/) as well as a now very aged and somewhat obscure freeweare TCP/IP stack known as CMU/IP or CMU/TEK-TCP/IP. VMS predates the internet and networking can be added - it is NOT necessary. You will likely need a 10-Base-5 (AUI) to 10-Base-T adapter for the ethernet port once you get that far. David J Dachtera DJE Systems ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:44:36 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Message-ID: <47859511$0$6237$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> > http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/03/220564/faa-demands-connectivity-security-for-boeing-787-control-and-information.html ## Onboard wired and wireless devices may also have access to parts of the airplane's digital systems that provide flight critical functions," says the FAA in a special conditions document published in December. "These new connectivity capabilities may result in security vulnerabilities to the airplane's critical systems." In order to "ensure the security, integrity, and availability" of critical systems, the FAA will require Boeing to demonstrate that unauthorised access to the hardware, software and databases of the aircraft control and airline information domains is not possible. ## I wonder how one could really demonstrate total data security for an aircraft that could be in service for 15-20 years. Systems that have to be approved by the FAA (and then different agencies around the world) tend to be difficultto change during the lifetime of the aircraft. And yeah, there are now widnows systems in cockpits to provide PDF manuals to the crews. (called "electronic flight book"). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:12:40 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>> In many places in the VMS docs one is recomended >>> to use the /GENERATE option of SET PASS (or the >>> correspending flag in SYSUAF). What is the current >>> view of these generated passwords ? How safe are they >>> against hacking/probing/directory-attacs ? >>> >I know everything about all that. I was *specificaly* asking >about the builtin security of the *generated* passwords. >Nothing else... :-) OK. Without seeing the source, I'm going to _guess_ that the generated passwords use an "alphabet" of syllables, each about 3 characters long. I have no idea how many "letters" are in this alphabet, but I suspect it is well over 26. However, since there are 3 or so real letters in each syllable, a 12 character generated password may be the equivalent of only about 4 "letters" long! But there should be plenty of "letters" in the "alphabet" so the generated password really isn't as weak as a 4 letter password. But consider: A generated password (and VMS breakin evasion) will thwart the script kiddie attacks, but what if the attacker knows you have a VMS system with generated passwords - and he knows the "alphabet". (He has the source of SET PASS/GENERATE). He can attack the 12 character password system with shorter sequences of syllables. Much better odds than 12 random characters but still quite remote. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:55:42 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: AEF wrote in news:b6ed5b92-c187-427f-b464-b91417742108@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com: >> >http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/07/21/30OPsecadvise_1.html >> >> "At 31 characters long, my password is all but unhackable." One of my >> first Linux installations silently dropped characters at the end of >> passwords and only used the first 6 characters. OK that was back in >> 2000, but think about it... > > And VMS could even do 32-char passwords even years ago. At least back > to the 1990's. Only 6 for Linux? Inexcusable! On a somewhat related > note: At a previous job in the late 1990's, a secretary user of mine > would type in what seemed to be a novella for a password. I never told > her that only the first 32 chars get looked at! (I'm pretty sure she > typed in more than 32 chars.) Reminds me of an account I had in college on a BSD system. I changed the password to something with, maybe, 15 characters, about 9 months after graduating. About a month later, my account was disabled because "the password was too easy to guess." It turns out the first 6 or 7 characters were probably in some dictionary, and the rest was not being recognized, though gladly accepted, when I made the change. Also, consider that VMS has supported a primary and optionally, a secondary password since at least as far back as 1988. As a result, you have 64 characters of password space. > > AEF > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:07:55 +0000 (UTC) From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: In article <4785169A.3050601@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >Christoph Gartmann wrote: >> Hello, >> >> is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? >> The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( >> >> Regards, >> Christoph Gartmann >> > >How about MOUNT /FOR Tried that and copied something onto it. This destroyed the FAT file system. >If there's something on the stick that you want on your VMS system, try >plugging the stick into a Windows box and FTPing the file(s). It is the other way round. The OpenVMS box has no network connection and I would like to retrieve a file from this box. The only other way I can think of, is to pull the disk out and put it into some other VMS box. The USB approach would be much nicer ;-) Regards, Christoph Gartmann -- Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 Immunbiologie Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de D-79011 Freiburg, Germany http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:22:15 -0500 From: Forrest Kenney Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <47851EE7.56C16E18@hp.com> There is no supported way to mount a FAT formatted pen drive. You can try MTOOLS, or WINFX, or EFI$CP. Forrest Christoph Gartmann wrote: > > Hello, > > is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? > The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( > > Regards, > Christoph Gartmann > > -- > Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 > Immunbiologie > Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de > D-79011 Freiburg, Germany > http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:25:30 -0500 From: Forrest Kenney Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <47851FAA.20EA3FAB@hp.com> If you want to got VMS to VMS just init the device to VMS format and then mount it. That works do it all the time, in fact today to move PAKs onto systems where the licenses had expired. Forrest Christoph Gartmann wrote: > > In article <4785169A.3050601@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >Christoph Gartmann wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? > >> The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( > >> > >> Regards, > >> Christoph Gartmann > >> > > > >How about MOUNT /FOR > > Tried that and copied something onto it. This destroyed the FAT file system. > > >If there's something on the stick that you want on your VMS system, try > >plugging the stick into a Windows box and FTPing the file(s). > > It is the other way round. The OpenVMS box has no network connection and I > would like to retrieve a file from this box. The only other way I can think > of, is to pull the disk out and put it into some other VMS box. The USB > approach would be much nicer ;-) > > Regards, > Christoph Gartmann > > -- > Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 > Immunbiologie > Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de > D-79011 Freiburg, Germany > http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:12:10 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <47852b89$0$4301$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Christoph Gartmann wrote: > It is the other way round. The OpenVMS box has no network connection and I > would like to retrieve a file from this box. The only other way I can think > of, is to pull the disk out and put it into some other VMS box. The USB > approach would be much nicer ;-) Not sure if this is doable. But you could consider the lD driver to create an ISO9660 container file, mount it, copy the VMS files to it, and then do a backup/physical from the LD disk to the USB stick. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jan 2008 14:16:02 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: In article <4785169A.3050601@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Christoph Gartmann wrote: >> Hello, >> >> is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? >> The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( >> >> Regards, >> Christoph Gartmann >> > > How about MOUNT /FOR > > I don't think VMS supports FAT file systems. I don't think you are > going to be able to do much with it. You might be able to format it > and put an ODS-2 file system on it. Or, you might not. I doubt if > supporting "USB Sticks" is high on the priority list at VMS Engineering. Try $ MCR PCDISK I don't know whether that came with MicroVaxen or with Pathworks or both. But it knew about FAT file systems. And last I knew it could deal with container file systems, so it wasn't just FAT on floppy disk drives. No clue where to lay my hands on a copy, unfortunately. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:18:04 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <0_9hj.4$kF2.3@newsfe09.lga> In article , gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: > > >In article <4785169A.3050601@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>Christoph Gartmann wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? >>> The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( >>> >>> Regards, >>> Christoph Gartmann >>> >> >>How about MOUNT /FOR > >Tried that and copied something onto it. This destroyed the FAT file system. > >>If there's something on the stick that you want on your VMS system, try >>plugging the stick into a Windows box and FTPing the file(s). > >It is the other way round. The OpenVMS box has no network connection and I >would like to retrieve a file from this box. The only other way I can think >of, is to pull the disk out and put it into some other VMS box. The USB >approach would be much nicer ;-) There was a utility called PCX (Check Hunter's repository at Process.com) that could read and write PeeCee formatted floppies. It may or may not work with the USB stick -- not because it's a USB stick but because PCX, IIRC, has some issues with the size of disk it could accomodate. It has been years since I've had to insert any floppies from a PeeCee so try it and let us know. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:12:59 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: >Hello, >is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? >The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( You have to use a tool like MTOOLS or EFI$CP to access FAT file systems. I have a thumbdrive with a VMS file system on it. VMS $INIT DNAx: label works just fine. If you do this, get a "plain" drive, without U3 or other magic that carves up the drive or makes it look like something other than a single disk. The resulting thumb drive isn't too useful on PCs unless there's already SW that can handle an ODS2/5 volume. It does exist. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:29:30 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: Hi, Just curious as to how many commercial organizations are running VMS (+/- WASD,Apache,OSU) as their primary web-facing http server. Even if we limit to sample to "only those sites that already had VMS for other applications" I don't believe the percentage wpuld get anywhere near double figures, do you? But then again, if I was right, that would mean that the only reason anyone would be having for configuring and running the bloatware of Apache, Tomcat, Java, PHP, CGI, Perl, Axis2, WSIT on their VMS boxes would be because that's what someone thinks is the best middleware for communicating between a company's *nix web-servers and their tried and tested VMS applications. Do you not agree? Maybe in the States, companies are still strictly homogenous one-hardware-platform-only kinda people, but at least at the VMS sites where I've been, the internet facing web-servers are running on *nix boxes (and sadly the VMS data is being FTP'd over nightly - or similar). The hope/desire of these companies is that the VMS servers will disappear in the near future :-( Now the dream that the IMM people may have you believe is that the VMS resurgence will be based on it being the Web-Server of Choice for all companies in the future ("The thinking man's web-server" perhaps?) *Apache + security + disaster-tolerence + more* Sounds great! The one problem here is that I think that horse bolted long ago :-( How many conversions from Linux to VMS have you chalked up Kerry? I hope I'm wrong, but I tell you what; while we're waiting to find out, don't you think it would be prudent to give those existing VMS application servers at existing customer sites a way of integrating with the Linux Web-servers rather than replicating them? Cheers Richard Maher "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.t4n6x2aahv4qyg@murphus... > On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:26:05 -0800, David Turner, Island Computers > wrote: > > > Thanks > > > > We are actually having our website redone. (No FLASH!) > > Thanks for the comments - we are updating the WINDOWS server from 2K to > > XP > > server as that is the webstore and the Ubuntu server is for the support > > site - these will be up soon. > > > > please excuse the mess - it ain't easy moving a company > > > > David > > > Why not run VMS and WASD? > > > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMS > www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:30:03 -0800 From: DeanW Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: <3f119ada0801091530u27ee171ek393b127a78d1bdce@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2008 3:29 PM, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi, > > Just curious as to how many commercial organizations are running VMS (+/- > WASD,Apache,OSU) as their primary web-facing http server. We are, running WASD. (Don't forget how Apache got it's name, eh?) Oh, there's this other little place, too: http://www.uma.es/ Their servers probably work a little harder than ours does. http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/other/uma_2tb.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:41:01 +1030 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: VMS - now with a hammer (was Re: Island Computers is moving) Message-ID: <13ob3863rj19iaf@corp.supernews.com> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi, > > Just curious as to how many commercial organizations are running VMS (+/- > WASD,Apache,OSU) as their primary web-facing http server. Even if we limit > to sample to "only those sites that already had VMS for other applications" > I don't believe the percentage wpuld get anywhere near double figures, do > you? > > But then again, if I was right, that would mean that the only reason anyone > would be having for configuring and running the bloatware of Apache, Tomcat, > Java, PHP, CGI, Perl, Axis2, WSIT on their VMS boxes would be because that's > what someone thinks is the best middleware for communicating between a > company's *nix web-servers and their tried and tested VMS applications. Do > you not agree? > > Maybe in the States, companies are still strictly homogenous > one-hardware-platform-only kinda people, but at least at the VMS sites where > I've been, the internet facing web-servers are running on *nix boxes (and > sadly the VMS data is being FTP'd over nightly - or similar). The > hope/desire of these companies is that the VMS servers will disappear in the > near future :-( > > Now the dream that the IMM people may have you believe is that the VMS > resurgence will be based on it being the Web-Server of Choice for all > companies in the future ("The thinking man's web-server" perhaps?) *Apache + > security + disaster-tolerence + more* Sounds great! The one problem here is > that I think that horse bolted long ago :-( How many conversions from Linux > to VMS have you chalked up Kerry? > > I hope I'm wrong, but I tell you what; while we're waiting to find out, > don't you think it would be prudent to give those existing VMS application > servers at existing customer sites a way of integrating with the Linux > Web-servers rather than replicating them? Hmmm. Perhaps Daughter-of-Tier3 - DoT3. or Tier3 Services Integration Toolkit - T3SIT :-) Something to keep the bloatware where it belongs - on *x - and leave VMS an unsullied, peer-to-peer, binary interaction? Keep suggesting this sort of heterodox technology and you'll end up finding yourself excommunicated from the Exclusive 3GL Brethren. (suggested in the Spirit of good humour - and making a *little* fun of your sometime glossolalia Richard :-) > Cheers Richard Maher > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.t4n6x2aahv4qyg@murphus... > >>On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:26:05 -0800, David Turner, Island Computers >> wrote: >> >> >>>Thanks >>> >>>We are actually having our website redone. (No FLASH!) >>>Thanks for the comments - we are updating the WINDOWS server from 2K to >>>XP >>>server as that is the webstore and the Ubuntu server is for the support >>>site - these will be up soon. >>> >>>please excuse the mess - it ain't easy moving a company >>> >>>David >>> >> >>Why not run VMS and WASD? >> >> >> >>-- >>PL/I for OpenVMS >>www.kednos.com -- Credulity kills. [Carl Sagan; The Demon-Haunted World] ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.019 ************************