INFO-VAX	Wed, 31 Oct 2007	Volume 2007 : Issue 595

   Contents:
Re: 9-Track tapes on integrity
Re: BUG in SEARCH /NUMBERS
Re: BUG in SEARCH /NUMBERS
Re: Re: Englanders fleeing socialized healthcare in record numbers!
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
RE: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Re: Pathworks vs CIFS performance
Revisited: Wireless (WPA) authentication and OpenVMS
Re: unix "batch processing"
UPD: JOnAS 4.8.6 for OpenVMS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:01:39 +0100
From: "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@ne.spamaj.hp.com>
Subject: Re: 9-Track tapes on integrity
Message-ID: <fg7v2k$sp6$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>

"Ebinger . Eric" <EEbinger@drc.com> wrote in message 
news:B3C98F093EDF2146ADB62CDBD5B7FB060FEC7B@andexch01.drc.com...

Is it possible (I know it's not supported) to use a SCSI 9-track tape drive 
(TSZ07) on a VMS Integrity server (RX26660) by way of an Ultra320 scsi 
adapter?  We would also need to use a 4mm DDS-3 drive but I can't imagine 
that would be a problem if the 9-track would work.


It is possible to put a little alfa behind 9-track? And then MSCP serve tape 
drive to itanium. This should work.

Best, Gorazd 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:51:05 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: BUG in SEARCH /NUMBERS
Message-ID: <d14b4$47278b2a$cef8887a$19481@TEKSAVVY.COM>

Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:
> Something else must be going on. Maybe a visual effect with rub-outs?
> Send that output to a file an try again?

You are right. Because DECTERM still doesn't have the capabilities of a 
VT100 (display control characters), it wasn't obvious. But sending it to 
a file shows that while SEARCH converts funny characters to their 
printable name, it doesn't do that for CR, it actually spits it out raw, 
and that causes the cursor to return to column 1 and overwrite the number.

LF and FF also appear to be emitted raw.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:15:29 -0500
From: norm.raphael@metso.com
Subject: Re: BUG in SEARCH /NUMBERS
Message-ID: <OF5CAA01B1.1289D71F-ON85257384.006F391C-85257384.006F47D0@metso.com>

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 006F47CB85257384_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote on 10/30/2007 03:51:05 PM:

> Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:
> > Something else must be going on. Maybe a visual effect with rub-outs?
> > Send that output to a file an try again?
> 
> You are right. Because DECTERM still doesn't have the capabilities of a 
> VT100 (display control characters), it wasn't obvious. But sending it to 

> a file shows that while SEARCH converts funny characters to their 
> printable name, it doesn't do that for CR, it actually spits it out raw, 

> and that causes the cursor to return to column 1 and overwrite the 
number.
> 
> LF and FF also appear to be emitted raw.

Did you use /FORMAT=DUMP?

SEARCH

  /FORMAT

        /FORMAT=option

     Formats output in one of the following five ways:

     DUMP     Displays all control characters (including <HT>, <CR>,
              and <LF>) and nonprintable characters as ANSI mnemonics.
--=_alternative 006F47CB85257384_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>JF Mezei &lt;jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca&gt; wrote
on 10/30/2007 03:51:05 PM:<br>
<br>
&gt; Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Something else must be going on. Maybe a visual effect with rub-outs?<br>
&gt; &gt; Send that output to a file an try again?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; You are right. Because DECTERM still doesn't have the capabilities
of a <br>
&gt; VT100 (display control characters), it wasn't obvious. But sending
it to <br>
&gt; a file shows that while SEARCH converts funny characters to their
<br>
&gt; printable name, it doesn't do that for CR, it actually spits it out
raw, <br>
&gt; and that causes the cursor to return to column 1 and overwrite the
number.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; LF and FF also appear to be emitted raw.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Did you use /FORMAT=DUMP?</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>SEARCH</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; /FORMAT</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /FORMAT=option</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Formats output in one of the following
five ways:</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;DUMP &nbsp; &nbsp; Displays all
control characters (including &lt;HT&gt;, &lt;CR&gt;,</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and
&lt;LF&gt;) and nonprintable characters as ANSI mnemonics.</tt></font>
--=_alternative 006F47CB85257384_=--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:15:09 +0100
From: "Dr. Dweeb" <spam@dweeb.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Englanders fleeing socialized healthcare in record numbers!
Message-ID: <472790cd$0$7605$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>

David Turner, Island Computers wrote:
> And primarily sex-change clinics (so "they" tell me)
>

You are appallingly misinformed! That is in no way "primary".

Dr. Dweeb

>
>
> "Dr. Dweeb" <spam@dweeb.net> wrote in message
> news:472530e0$0$21928$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...
>> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote:
>>> looks like India is becoming popular for not only vms support but
>>> surgery for Britans people as well ... this is the same socialized
>>> healthcare system Hillary wants to give you ... read and learn ...
>>>
>>> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58379
>>
>> Actually, "medical tourism" is big business in Asia. There are
>> regular articles in major publications, mostly about *Americans*
>> going to Thailand (or wherever) for procedures. There have been
>> articles in Newsweek and I think Time.
>>
>> http://www.bumrungrad.com/Overseas-Medical-Care/Bumrungrad-International.aspx
>>
>> This is the major 5-star hospital in Bangkok.
>>
>> And to bring it on topic, they are an MS and SQLServer shop.
>>
>> Dr. Dweeb 

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 2007 12:58:27 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <rdySwRvkPUPp@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <op.t00f6kq7hv4qyg@murphus.linden>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> writes:
> 
> Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
> a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration

   Well, at least there's a company that sells a PL/I compiler.

   The only thing different I note on a regular basis is the DBG> prompt
   after entering a DCL command when I use ^Y to exit a program I'm
   debugging.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:59:23 +0000 (UTC)
From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <fg7rdr$7hr$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>

In article <5oovujFnvtu4U3@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <4727437E.7060900@comcast.net>,
>	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article <fg7cif$2h4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>>> 	david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>>> 
>>>>In article <op.t00f6kq7hv4qyg@murphus.linden>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.company> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
>>>>>>never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
>>>>>>Alpha.
>>>>>
>>>>>Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
>>>>>a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of 
>>>>software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous. 
>>>>VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just 
>>>>couldn't keep up with the competition.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
>>> performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
>>> technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.  
>>> 
>> 
>> That's one of those things that we will probably never know.
>> 
>> Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are generally 
>> faster than CISC.
>
>Yes, they are.  But, what of EPIC?  The target is no longer Alpha.
>
That's the big difference. 

VAX -> Alpha was seen as producing improved performance.
Alpha -> Itanium is seen as a forced move where continued Alpha development
would have produced better performance.

David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University

>bill
>
>-- 
>Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>University of Scranton   |
>Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 2007 13:00:57 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <ZrQTNKANTXJu@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <5oorjkFns754U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:

> Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
> performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
> technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.  

   Are you sure about that?  I know what the performance of my SIMH
   VAXen are.  And last I heard someone was still looking at doing an
   FPGA based "microcoded" VAX (what goes around comes around).

   IMHO an FPGA based VAX could cheaply outperform a 9000.  But a lot
   of applications will run out of P0 space.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 2007 13:02:52 -0600
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <Vl3AKM3nw4c9@eisner.encompasserve.org>

In article <fg7pud$70j$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
> 
> You would need to find someway to produce RISC like instructions from the VAX
> instructions and pass them to a RISC core (as modern x86 processors do)
> only then can you start looking at optimisations such as out of order execution.

   As I recall, that's how DEC described the CPU blocks in the 9000.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:18:29 +0000 (UTC)
From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <fg7shk$7sk$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>

In article <5op8n6Fnkn47U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <fg7pud$70j$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>	david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>> In article <5op04lFnvtu4U4@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>In article <FPHVi.12546$ZA.8039@newsb.telia.net>,
>>>	Jan-Erik Söderholm   <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>> In article <fg7cif$2h4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>>>>>>     david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <op.t00f6kq7hv4qyg@murphus.linden>, "Tom Linden" 
>>>>>>> <tom@kednos.company> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck 
>>>>>>>> <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
>>>>>>>>> never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
>>>>>>>>> Alpha.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as 
>>>>>>>> on VAX,
>>>>>>>> a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of 
>>>>>>> lots of software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't 
>>>>>>> gratuitous. VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital 
>>>>>>> engineers just couldn't keep up with the competition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
>>>>>> performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
>>>>>> technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be. 
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's one of those things that we will probably never know.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are generally 
>>>>> faster than CISC.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And the the current VAX *emulators* runs faster then any
>>>> VAX *hardware* ever did. If I understand correctly...
>>>
>> 
>>>But the question is would that hold true if the VAX were being
>>>manufactured in today'sa technology?  
>> 
>> You would need to find someway to produce RISC like instructions from the VAX
>> instructions and pass them to a RISC core (as modern x86 processors do)
>> only then can you start looking at optimisations such as out of order execution.
>> As I recall discussions on this subject in comp.arch concluded that this would
>> be more difficult for the VAX instruction set than for the x86 instruction
>> set.
>> 
>> Yes with modern chip manufacturing you would get a faster VAX than any which
>> was ever manufactured but Power and other RISC architectures would still be
>> much faster.
> 
>Which, of course, does not mean not commercially viable.  "Power and other
>RISC architectures" are all faster than Itanium and yet........
>
But then that is the 64 Million dollar question - how much longer is Itanium 
going to remain commercially viable ? For that matter if you include all it's
development costs is Itanium actually commercially successful ?


David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University

>bill 
>
>-- 
>Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>University of Scranton   |
>Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:27:42 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <a2735$472793bf$cef8887a$7942@TEKSAVVY.COM>

david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> You would need to find someway to produce RISC like instructions from the VAX
> instructions and pass them to a RISC core (as modern x86 processors do)


When you consider the various complex instructions that were added to 
the 8086 (such as those to support video and many others), it shows that 
"hardware" can still outperform software for certain types of operations.

I believe that some of the instructions that have been added to the 8086 
in recent years are far more complex in nature than whatever VAX had.

The main reason that IA64 failed commercially is that it isn't 
compatible with windows, and the main reason Intel and AMD worked so 
hard to get the 8086 to perform admirably despite its "toy controller" 
architecture is that the installed base of software was just too large 
to let go.

Apple managed its architecture transitions admirably, altough the 
PowerPC to 8086 transition dropped support for pre OS-X applications.
The 68k to PowerPc happened while Apple was still doing well. The 
PowerPc to 8086 is different because the MAC was pretty lethargic and 
decimated due to bad Apple management. (Scully was to Apple what Palmer 
was to DEC).  With the return of Steve Jobs, he essentially relaunched 
the MAC computer and did a significant marketing campaign and quickly 
introduced a totally new operating system (OS-X) that brought the MAC 
back into a leadership position, well ahead of Windows.

Apple's experience shows that with proper leadership and the right 
software, you can manage transitions fairly well.


I think that Windows on IA64 failed because Microsoft was simply 
incapable of doing what Apple did with its seamless translators, 
probably due in part to how messy Windows and Windows drivers are.


The VAX to Alpha transition costed VMS a lot of applications. This might 
have been reduced to some extent if VEST (or whatever its name is this 
week) had been included as part of the OS right from the start it and 
written such that Digital could have encouraged people to use it 
(instead of warning it was somewhat of a kludge etc etc).

And of course, the lack of a "relaunch of VMS" campaign meant that any 
loss of customers who coudln't migrate easily was not compensated by gains.


Remember that in the 1980s, of the strengths of VMS was its software 
inventory. The VAX to Alpha migration, along with Palmer sabotaged this 
great asset leaving VMS with "leftovers" of software.


One thing was missing from VAX though: IEEE floating point. Could IEEE 
instructions have been added to VAX architecture/chips relatively easily ?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:38:07 GMT
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?=
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <3vNVi.12580$ZA.8128@newsb.telia.net>

JF Mezei wrote:

> The main reason that IA64 failed commercially...

Did it ?
Or do you want it to ?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:47:28 +0000
From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <C72D63EB292C9E49AED23F705C61957BDEBA164CFD@G1W0487.americas.hpqcorp.net>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company]
> Sent: October 30, 2007 11:28 AM
> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:45:51 -0700, <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of
> > lots of
> > software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't
> gratuitous.
> > VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers
> just
> > couldn't keep up with the competition.
>
> Rubbish, they didn't try.  Notice the clock speed on z hardware or x86?
> Yes,
> I have read Hennessy's paper on the VAX, and I don't agree, based on a
> number
> of assumptions, likely to justify the mips approach, and don't forget
> they
> sold
> a piece to DEC, after that paper.
>
> --
> PL/I for OpenVMS
> www.kednos.com

Relative performance of VAX vs. Alpha comparison:
http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html

Regards


Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-592-4660
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:15:23 -0500
From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <a035d$4727baf1$cef89981$12182@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free>

Main, Kerry wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER [mailto:peter@langstoeger.at]
>> Sent: October 26, 2007 3:36 PM
>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
>> Subject: RE: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>>
>> In article
>> <C72D63EB292C9E49AED23F705C61957BDEBA0E67C7@G1W0487.americas.hpqcorp.ne
>> t>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:
>>> What is this fascination you have with the main page on HP.com?
>>
>> What is your fascination with JF postings?
>> Only because he is still putting the finger in the wound
>> (while all other got bored repeating itself pointing to the obvious
>> and stopped years ago)?
>>
>> Don't shoot the messenger...
>>
>> (though I often get bored of JF postings, too)
>>
>> --
>> Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
>> Network and OpenVMS system specialist
>> E-mail  peter@langstoeger.at
>> A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a
>> realist
>
> Well, its one thing to constantly say its raining, but when the sun
> comes out occasionally, there is nothing wrong with recognizing that
> a bit of sun shine is a good thing. Enjoy it.


I'm sure the condemned prisoner too enjoys the last rays of sunshine and his
last cigarette as they tie him to the post in front of the firing squad.


--
OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base,
and less than 0.5 Gorhams of installed systems.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:26:29 -0500
From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <84487$4727bd8b$cef89981$12876@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free>

david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <5op8n6Fnkn47U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu
> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> In article <fg7pud$70j$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>>> In article <5op04lFnvtu4U4@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu
>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>> In article <FPHVi.12546$ZA.8039@newsb.telia.net>,
>>>> Jan-Erik Söderholm   <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <fg7cif$2h4$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>>>>>>>     david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <op.t00f6kq7hv4qyg@murphus.linden>, "Tom Linden"
>>>>>>>> <tom@kednos.company> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck
>>>>>>>>> <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS
>>>>>>>>>> on VAX but never thought we'd see anything better until we
>>>>>>>>>> experienced OpenVMS on Alpha.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the
>>>>>>>>> same as on VAX,
>>>>>>>>> a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then
>>>>>>>> selling of lots of software which was ported) but the
>>>>>>>> transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous. VAX performance even
>>>>>>>> with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just couldn't
>>>>>>>> keep up with the competition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in
>>>>>>> what the performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter)
>>>>>>> made with today's technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.)
>>>>>>> would be.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's one of those things that we will probably never know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are
>>>>>> generally faster than CISC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And the the current VAX *emulators* runs faster then any
>>>>> VAX *hardware* ever did. If I understand correctly...
>>>>
>>>
>>>> But the question is would that hold true if the VAX were being
>>>> manufactured in today'sa technology?
>>>
>>> You would need to find someway to produce RISC like instructions
>>> from the VAX instructions and pass them to a RISC core (as modern
>>> x86 processors do)
>>> only then can you start looking at optimisations such as out of
>>> order execution.
>>> As I recall discussions on this subject in comp.arch concluded that
>>> this would
>>> be more difficult for the VAX instruction set than for the x86
>>> instruction
>>> set.
>>>
>>> Yes with modern chip manufacturing you would get a faster VAX than
>>> any which
>>> was ever manufactured but Power and other RISC architectures would
>>> still be
>>> much faster.
>>
>> Which, of course, does not mean not commercially viable.  "Power and
>> other RISC architectures" are all faster than Itanium and yet........
>>
> But then that is the 64 Million dollar question - how much longer is
> Itanium
> going to remain commercially viable ? For that matter if you include
> all it's
> development costs is Itanium actually commercially successful ?


Given that Hurd has just invested a boatload of money to create NeoView on
NSK, it's doubtful that HP will be moving off Itanic any time soon. But HP
may well become Itanic's only customer, which puts it in the same boat as
Alpha was in.

--
OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV
base.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:10:55 -0700
From:  AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <1193793055.423814.68220@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>

On Oct 30, 6:15 pm, "John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> wrote:
> Main, Kerry wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER [mailto:pe...@langstoeger.at]
> >> Sent: October 26, 2007 3:36 PM
> >> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> >> Subject: RE: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
> >> In article
> >> <C72D63EB292C9E49AED23F705C61957BDEBA0E6...@G1W0487.americas.hpqcorp.ne
> >> t>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.M...@hp.com> writes:
> >>> What is this fascination you have with the main page on HP.com?
>
> >> What is your fascination with JF postings?
> >> Only because he is still putting the finger in the wound
> >> (while all other got bored repeating itself pointing to the obvious
> >> and stopped years ago)?
>
> >> Don't shoot the messenger...
>
> >> (though I often get bored of JF postings, too)
>
> >> --
> >> Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
> >> Network and OpenVMS system specialist
> >> E-mail  pe...@langstoeger.at
> >> A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a
> >> realist
>
> > Well, its one thing to constantly say its raining, but when the sun
> > comes out occasionally, there is nothing wrong with recognizing that
> > a bit of sun shine is a good thing. Enjoy it.
>
> I'm sure the condemned prisoner too enjoys the last rays of sunshine and his
> last cigarette as they tie him to the post in front of the firing squad.

Oh, stop it already. What are you? JF? Besides: It's not even a
reasonable scenario for the actual case described.

^Y

[...]

AEF

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:12:36 -0500
From: David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
Message-ID: <4727E494.9D563A18@spam.comcast.net>

AEF wrote:
> 
> On Oct 30, 6:15 pm, "John Smith" <a...@nonymous.com> wrote:
> > Main, Kerry wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > Well, its one thing to constantly say its raining, but when the sun
> > > comes out occasionally, there is nothing wrong with recognizing that
> > > a bit of sun shine is a good thing. Enjoy it.
> >
> > I'm sure the condemned prisoner too enjoys the last rays of sunshine and his
> > last cigarette as they tie him to the post in front of the firing squad.
> 
> Oh, stop it already. What are you? JF? Besides: It's not even a
> reasonable scenario for the actual case described.

Yeah. Besides, these days they use lethal injection by default.

-- 
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:09:03 GMT
From: VMS is Virus Free <vms@virusfree.org>
Subject: Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Message-ID: <4clfi35mvcsovvlp1v9rp37v5riuen813m@4ax.com>

URL: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/?jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN

Easy enough to find; just handy to have it in the thread.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:19:40 -0500
From: David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>
Subject: Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Message-ID: <4727E63C.9B8C6D07@spam.comcast.net>

AEF wrote:
> 
> On Oct 30, 9:22 am, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> > I want to thank HP for putting the "Celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS" on
> > their main page.
> >
> > That's great !
> >
> > And of course I thank everyone that worked on making this 30-years site.
> > Now that it's more properly advertised, I hope the number of visits will
> > raise.
> >
> > I know, some here will not be so happy and find ways to complain, but I
> > think this is the best thing that  happened to VMS for a very long time,
> > advertisement-wise. Not only preaching to the choir this time.
> >
> > Happy anniversary VMS !
> >
> > --
> > Syltremhttp://pages.infinit.net/syltrem(OpenVMS information and help, en français)
> 
> Happy Anniversary VMS!!!
> 
> Yep, I just checked: It's still there on the front f------ page!
> 
> Hooray again!

Which "front" page? Didn't see it on http://www.hp.com/ , just some stuff about
Halloween specials.

-- 
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:37:36 -0400
From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Message-ID: <7dd80f60710301937g2e54243t297199f5835ab32e@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/07, David J Dachtera <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net> wrote:
> Which "front" page? Didn't see it on http://www.hp.com/ , just some stuff about
> Halloween specials.

It's no longer there. :-(

It was visible when the "Large Enterpise" tab was active.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:18:27 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Re: HP *is* celebrating 30 years of OpenVMS
Message-ID: <93b67$47281026$cef8887a$14804@TEKSAVVY.COM>

Ken Robinson wrote:
>> It's no longer there. :-(

That is understandable. HP has to go on its real business. They 
annojcned some new encryption product and that is what is now featured.

I guess the VMS folks can claim a big victory in having achieved this 
ephemeral exposure on the main page.  It could have been more visible 
(like that solar powered car sponsorship thing) and there a week before 
the anniversary and at least a few days after it. But that is way too 
much to expect. Lets face it, VMS is not important to HP.

They could have had a real press release, not only going out on the 
newswires, but also posted at:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2007/index.html

THAT would have been a major step forwards at very little cost to HP.

Or at:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/feature_stories/2007/index.html

(Scrolll down to the entry titled:
##
HP handheld calculators celebrate 35 years of innovation (June 2007)
##

Of course, the 30th anniversary of VMS isn't mentioned on that page either.


Perhaps the so called marketing campaign consisted of the short 
appearance on the home page, the special pages for the 30th anniversary 
amd the hurd video. Perhaps there is much more to come.

If the VMS staff are angry at our criticisms, they should have posted a 
whole list of planned marketing devices/events so that we would have a 
"big picture" of what is to come. Not knowing if there is anything left 
to come, we have left wondering if that was it or if there is more to come.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:57:01 GMT
From: VMS is Virus Free <vms@virusfree.org>
Subject: Re: Pathworks vs CIFS performance
Message-ID: <sjkfi31cji6at3bgct7ead7nuaoauba9s6@4ax.com>

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:41:41 -0400, "PEN" <paul.nunez.nosp@m.hp.com>
wrote:

>If you have Advanced Server for OpenVMS (and to a lesser extent PATHWORKS 
>for OpenVMS) you may benefit from:
>
>http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?docname=c00596671&cc=us&dlc=en&lc=en&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN
>
>Regards,
>
>Paul 
>

We are running Advanced Server and believe we have things reasonably
well tuned. However, you referenced a good article on Pathworks
tuning. We will go thru this to see if it affords any help.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 2007 22:59:09 GMT
From: DAVISM@ecr6.ohio-state.edu (Michael T. Davis)
Subject: Revisited: Wireless (WPA) authentication and OpenVMS
Message-ID: <fg8cvt$4pd$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>

	Back in early April of '07, I raised the following issue:

]	I was wondering if anyone has implemented a completely OpenVMS based
]WiFi authentication system.  We would like to assemble something that can
]accept an authentication request (probably RADIUS-based) from an access point
](i.e. Apple AirPort Extreme with router functionality disabled) based on
]OpenVMS username and password.  Assuming the authentication is successful,
]then the end-user's WiFi device can obtain an IP address from our OpenVMS
]based DHCP server.  All of this would run on/under...
]
]  HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.5
]  on an AlphaServer DS15 running OpenVMS V8.2
]
](I don't believe upgrading the OpenVMS system[s] would be a major obstacle, if
]necessary.)
]
]	Any pointers or "gotchas" to avoid would be welcome.

As a follow-up, I also mentioned...

]	FWIW, we also have a number of Windows 2003 Servers which provide a
]native RADIUS server known as IAS (Internet Authentication Service).  If one
]of these systems was configured to provide PEAP (PEAPv0/EAP-MSCHAP-v2) access
]and to act as a RADIUS (authentication) proxy for the free RADIUS-VMS
]software, I wonder if this would work.  If so, implementation details would be
]welcome.

	Someone (who I believe is/was the maintainer of the "RADIUS for
OpenVMS" offering) requested time to investigate implementing "WPA in the
RADIUS", but I haven't seen anything since.  Has anyone made any progress
in this area?

Regards,
Mike
--
                                         |    Systems Specialist: CBE,MSE
         Michael T. Davis (Mike)         | Departmental Networking/Computing
 http://www.ecr6.ohio-state.edu/~davism/ |     The Ohio State University
                                         |     197 Watts, (614) 292-6928

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:44:03 -0700
From: Fred Bach <bach@triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: unix "batch processing"
Message-ID: <fg81i7$emn$1@aioe.org>

Larry Kilgallen wrote:

> 
> I can think of no situation on VMS where sharing of passwords would be
> reasonable (single user systems do not count, since there iws no sharing).
> 


   I 'own' several VMS accounts.  I try to keep the various jobs separated
   by account, but I hold all the passwords to those accounts.  Furthermore
   we have a few common accounts among a couple groups of people since we
   don't want to change all the control and display screens at every
   shift-change.

   .... fred bach <music at triumf dot c a >   Opinions are my own.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:22:13 -0700
From:  thierry.uso@wanadoo.fr
Subject: UPD: JOnAS 4.8.6 for OpenVMS
Message-ID: <1193775733.361970.289520@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>

JOnAS is a J2EE application server published under LGPL.

JOnAS 4.8.6 has been ported on OpenVMS. This release is Sun J2EE 1.4
certified; it supports EJB 2.1, Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0. Porting means
testing all the functions, writing startup, shutdown and admin
procedures and creating a PCSI kit.

JOnAS for OpenVMS needs Java 1.5 or later. It must be installed on an
ODS5 volume. JOnAS has been tested on Alpha and Itanium.

download link: http://vmsfree.free.fr/freen/index.php?s=jonas

------------------------------

End of INFO-VAX 2007.595
************************