INFO-VAX Wed, 17 Oct 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 568 Contents: Re: Canadians flee Canadian socialized Hillary type healthcare for Re: CHECKSUM oddity? Re: getting MAC in 7.3 Re: getting MAC in 7.3 Re: login from mailbox? Re: login from mailbox? Resolved: getting MAC in 7.3 Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) We have DS15a systems (US/ROHS compliant) in stock Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Re: Which delete statement is faster? Why I can't change path in makefile Re: Why I can't change path in makefile Re: Why I can't change path in makefile Re: Why I can't change path in makefile ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:19:59 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Canadians flee Canadian socialized Hillary type healthcare for Message-ID: In article <1192589773.883190.265180@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck writes: > On Oct 16, 9:07 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 10/16/07 07:47, Bob Koehler wrote: >> >> And the other instances of Democrat misdeeds/foolishness? >> I DID NOT WRITE THAT! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:54:27 -0500 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: CHECKSUM oddity? Message-ID: In article , glen herrmannsfeldt writes: > I have known that this works, but never saw the detailed description > of why it works. The common serial implementation using a LFSR > (linear feedback shift register) makes it easy, and the required > hardware very simple. As to your last statement, appending > zero bits is done by feeding zeros into the shift register and > sending as data what comes out the other end. > > In some cases the shift register is initialized with ones, otherwise > initial zero bits in the input are not checked. > > Another interesting case is the ability to read tapes backwards. > While many newer drives can't do that, most of the older ones did. IBM certainly did it. I used the 2400 series drives, which had that capability, at least on mainframe channels. > There are sorting algorithms specifically optimized for tape drives > that can read backwards. (The data appears in the buffer in the > right order, filling from the end toward the start.) The SynchSort algorithm was known for being optimized to make use of both directions of tape motion, and is notable for being the first software to be patented. [It was unclear at the time whether software should be patentable, given that algorithms were considered as being, roughly, mathematical equations, which were well established as being non patentable. The key distinction with the sort algorithm was that the patent was granted for a _process_, one that clearly involved mechanical motion.] > It must > also be possible to verify the CRC backwards. From a polynomial division point of view it seems a bit tricky but I guess I can see how it works to run it backwards. A shift register implementation, though, is so simple that operating backwards is easily imagined. I suppose you feed the bits into the register from the other end. Could actually be a CRC as well, using a bit order reversed version of the original polynomial. -- George Cornelius cornelius(at)eisner.decus.org cornelius(at)mayo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:30:30 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: getting MAC in 7.3 Message-ID: On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:17:21 -0700, Steven M. Schweda = = wrote: > From: "Tom Linden" > >> Thanks, now comes the real question I should have asked, How do you d= o = >> i=3D >> t >> from a callable interface? > > Read the IO User's Reference Manual? Steal code from my program? > > http://antinode.org/ftp/misc/ea.c > > Many things are possible. I haven't looked much at the old code, so i= t > could probably use some tidying, but it does seem to work. > > Sometimes it pays to ask the question whose answer you seek. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:35:45 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: getting MAC in 7.3 Message-ID: On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:33:20 -0700, Tom Linden wrote: > In 8.3 I can say > > REX> write sys$output f$getdvi("EWA0","LAN_DEFAULT_MAC_ADDRESS") > 00-30-6E-4C-9A-FB > > How do you find it in earlier versions http://www.kednos.com/pli_examples/GETMAC.HTML Thanks to Steven Schweda and Paul Sture for sharing. SYSMAN> do run DISK$COMMON:[USER.TOM.work]getmac %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node HAFNER HWA(EWA0:) = 0000F8717088 HWA(EWB0:) = 0000F8314DCA %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node FREJA HWA(EWA0:) = 0000F8715EBD %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node GUNN HWA(EWA0:) = 08002B870B10 HWA(EWB0:) = 08002B870ADF %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node NORNS HWA(EWA0:) = 08002B8652ED HWA(EWB0:) = 08002B8652EE ┌───────────────────────┬─────────┐ │ SYSTEMS │ MEMBERS │ ├────────┬──────────────┼─────────┤ │ NODE │ SOFTWARE │ STATUS │ ├────────┼──────────────┼─────────┤ │ GUNN │ VMS V8.3 │ MEMBER │ │ NORNS │ VMS V7.3-1 │ MEMBER │ │ FREJA │ VMS V8.2 │ MEMBER │ │ HAFNER │ VMS V7.3-2 │ MEMBER │ └────────┴──────────────┴─────────┘ I only test for A and B devices, but trivially extended if needed. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:15:51 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: login from mailbox? Message-ID: norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: > > What would cause a briefly logged-in process from a mailbox with a > forced exit? > > [...snipped...] This is the typical accounting record for a SYSMAN connection. Example: $ mcr sysman SYSMAN> set env/node=xxx SYSMAN> do show err ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:59:57 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: login from mailbox? Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0052635685257377_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" "R.A.Omond" wrote on 10/17/2007 04:15:51 AM: > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: > > > > What would cause a briefly logged-in process from a mailbox with a > > forced exit? > > > > [...snipped...] > > This is the typical accounting record for a SYSMAN connection. > > Example: > > $ mcr sysman > SYSMAN> set env/node=xxx > SYSMAN> do show err Thanks, Roy. I had that very thought this morning. --=_alternative 0052635685257377_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



"R.A.Omond" <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote on 10/17/2007 04:15:51 AM:

> norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:
> >
> > What would cause a briefly logged-in process from a mailbox with a
> > forced exit?
> >
> > [...snipped...]
>
> This is the typical accounting record for a SYSMAN connection.
>
> Example:
>
> $ mcr sysman
> SYSMAN> set env/node=xxx
> SYSMAN> do show err
Thanks, Roy.  I had that very thought this morning. --=_alternative 0052635685257377_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:45:46 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Resolved: getting MAC in 7.3 Message-ID: On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:33:20 -0700, Tom Linden wrote: > In 8.3 I can say > > REX> write sys$output f$getdvi("EWA0","LAN_DEFAULT_MAC_ADDRESS") > 00-30-6E-4C-9A-FB > > How do you find it in earlier versions http://www.kednos.com/pli_examples/GETMAC.HTML Thanks to Steven Schweda and Paul Sture for sharing some C code. │ GUNN │ VMS V8.3 │ MEMBER │ │ NORNS │ VMS V7.3-1 │ MEMBER │ │ FREJA │ VMS V8.2 │ MEMBER │ │ HAFNER │ VMS V7.3-2 │ MEMBER │ SYSMAN> do run DISK$COMMON:[USER.TOM.work]getmac %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node HAFNER HWA(EWA0:) = 0000F8717088 HWA(EWB0:) = 0000F8314DCA %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node FREJA HWA(EWA0:) = 0000F8715EBD %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node GUNN HWA(EWA0:) = 08002B870B10 HWA(EWB0:) = 08002B870ADF %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node NORNS HWA(EWA0:) = 08002B8652ED HWA(EWB0:) = 08002B8652EE Tom -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 04:09:24 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1192619364.213095.289150@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Oct 17, 12:02 am, JF Mezei wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: > > Correct. The current phase is a combination of the various natural > > cycles "combined" with human activity. > > Techically correct, but a very misleading statement. > > The natural cycles happen at a very slow pace. The current warming has > happened at a pace that is orders of magnitudes faster than natural > cycles. So the "natural" warming that would have occured without human > intervention wouldn't be significant when measured over just 50 years. > You are essentially correct but you can't ignore any of the terms in the equation describing global warming. Some cycles are very slow are slow and some are not. For example, the so-called solar cycle averages 11.1 years from peak to peak. March-2006 was solar minimum and yet it is hotter all over the world due to many factors, Now the sun will get hotter until it hits solar maximum around Sept-2011. One non-cyclical curve is the rise in greenhouse gas release caused by homo-technoligicus (this is a label I made up). It actually starts to rise about 8000 years ago with the creation of agricultural practices. The rise is slow byt consistant as more people learn how to do it. The the line really takes off with the beginning of the "age of steam". Mean while, lots of volcanoes are belching green house gases into the air (adding to the gases released by man) and, to the best of my knowledge, not following any cyclic trends. Man's contribution to the problem "is amplified" by many other natural factors like: 1) the melting of permafrost causes the release of trapped methane 2) the warming of the oceans causes the release of methane hydrate (which is normally frozen and sitting on the ocean floor) Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 11:32:23 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <5nma67Fiq4d6U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1192578944.310398.75510@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Oct 16, 8:40 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <47141695.7CEF3...@spam.comcast.net>, >> David J Dachtera writes: >> >> > Neil Rieck wrote: >> >> >> On Oct 12, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> >> Koehler) wrote: >> >> > Congrats to Al Gore and the UN panel on the environment on the >> >> > Nobel Peace Prize. >> >> >> Some scientists predicted that the long sought after "North West >> >> Passage" would be permanently open sometime before 2015. Guess what? >> >> It opened last month. >> >> >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6995999.stm >> >> > Folks here probably know how Greenland got its name. >> >> Greenland, hell.... Hasn't anyone here ever read aboiut what they find >> in core samples taken through the ice in Antarctica? >> >> >> >> > Suffice it to say - circles are never-ending, and this is the next time around >> > this circle, one of many that comprise the cycles of this planet. >> >> But espousing that won't get you grant money to study Global Warming. > > Bill, > > Quick question: Suppose global warming really is what the scientists > say it is. What would be different that you or I would be able to read > of see compared to if it weren't? If you can't come up with some > significant difference, you can't rule out GW. But, based on existing data, I can rule out the supposed contribution of man. Major volcanic eruptions like Mt. Pinataubo and Mount St. Helens generate more greenhouse gases in a short period of time than man has since the start of the industrial age (this was measured, I think for the first time, when Mt. Pinataubo erupted. The information was published widely at the time, but is now buried away as it fails to support current trends.) I don't doubt that Global Warming exists. I just don't believe the crap put out by people like Al Gore who's purpose is anything but saving the world. Go back to my line above: "espousing that won't get you grant money to study Global Warming." I read articles everyday about "scientific" studies using faked data in order to prolong the flow of grant money. I have no reason to believe and lots of evidence to disbelieve that this is anything different. The scientific method is dead, long live the dollar. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 11:34:28 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <5nmaa4Fiq4d6U2@mid.individual.net> In article <471555B9.4588D52E@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> In article <47141695.7CEF387A@spam.comcast.net>, >> David J Dachtera writes: >> > Neil Rieck wrote: >> >> >> >> On Oct 12, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> >> Koehler) wrote: >> >> > Congrats to Al Gore and the UN panel on the environment on the >> >> > Nobel Peace Prize. >> >> >> >> Some scientists predicted that the long sought after "North West >> >> Passage" would be permanently open sometime before 2015. Guess what? >> >> It opened last month. >> >> >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6995999.stm >> > >> > Folks here probably know how Greenland got its name. >> >> Greenland, hell.... Hasn't anyone here ever read aboiut what they find >> in core samples taken through the ice in Antarctica? >> >> > >> > Suffice it to say - circles are never-ending, and this is the next time around >> > this circle, one of many that comprise the cycles of this planet. >> >> But espousing that won't get you grant money to study Global Warming. > > Hhmmm... Interesting thought... > > ...but I wonder if I could get enough grant money to not only revive DJE > Systems, but also buy VMS away from HP! > > Let's see... I need minorities and women, maybe a few seniors, ... > > Hey! The bulk of the OVMS Engr Refugees are "grey-heads"! This just might have a > chance! Anyone know a good grant proposal writer? Ride the wave. Stress how VMS is environmentally friendly, enables minorities and could be a cure for breast cancer. You'll have it made in the shade....... bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 06:04:48 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1192626288.976787.16790@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 17, 7:32 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1192578944.310398.75...@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > > On Oct 16, 8:40 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <47141695.7CEF3...@spam.comcast.net>, > >> David J Dachtera writes: > > >> > Neil Rieck wrote: > > >> >> On Oct 12, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > >> >> Koehler) wrote: > >> >> > Congrats to Al Gore and the UN panel on the environment on the > >> >> > Nobel Peace Prize. > > >> >> Some scientists predicted that the long sought after "North West > >> >> Passage" would be permanently open sometime before 2015. Guess what? > >> >> It opened last month. > > >> >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6995999.stm > > >> > Folks here probably know how Greenland got its name. > > >> Greenland, hell.... Hasn't anyone here ever read aboiut what they find > >> in core samples taken through the ice in Antarctica? > > >> > Suffice it to say - circles are never-ending, and this is the next time around > >> > this circle, one of many that comprise the cycles of this planet. > > >> But espousing that won't get you grant money to study Global Warming. > > > Bill, > > > Quick question: Suppose global warming really is what the scientists > > say it is. What would be different that you or I would be able to read > > of see compared to if it weren't? If you can't come up with some > > significant difference, you can't rule out GW. > > But, based on existing data, I can rule out the supposed > contribution of man. Major volcanic eruptions like Mt. > Pinataubo and Mount St. Helens generate more greenhouse > gases in a short period of time than man has since the > start of the industrial age (this was measured, I think for > the first time, when Mt. Pinataubo erupted. The information Can you supply a reference? Where did you learn this from? "More greenhouse gases" is a bit vague. Can you be more specific? Which greenhouse gases and how much? And if this is true, why doesn't anyone bring this up? Surely the Wall St. Journal would have a few full-page articles about it! And FOX News would trumpet it. Etc. All I hear is things like the Weather Service placing thermometers next to chimneys and down volcanoes and other nonsense like that. > was published widely at the time, but is now buried away as > it fails to support current trends.) I don't doubt that > Global Warming exists. I just don't believe the crap put > out by people like Al Gore who's purpose is anything but > saving the world. > > Go back to my line above: "espousing that won't get you grant money > to study Global Warming." I read articles everyday about "scientific" > studies using faked data in order to prolong the flow of grant money. > I have no reason to believe and lots of evidence to disbelieve that > this is anything different. The scientific method is dead, long live > the dollar. The dollar didn't work for cold fusion, n-rays, and the fifth force. These were bogus and were easily shown to be. So science lives. And most of our whiz-bang technology works based on scientific results. For example, see recent articles about this year's Nobel prize in physics, rewarding two scientists who discovered an important previously unknown property of thin layers of atoms that makes iPods and the like possible. I don't think iPods would work if this science were faked. So science is not dead. OTOH, there is string theory! But the genius of that is that it is not testable! It is controversial if it is promising and worth further funding, but if it starts making verifiable predictions, we can test it and act according to the results. But you still can't rule it out until you can test it. AEF > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:07:02 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1Lon6Q7Lpe5+@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <4715567C.58E31DA4@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: Repeat after me: Global warming is both natural and man-made, there is overwhelming evidence. Global warming is both natural and man-made, there is overwhelming evidence. Global warming is both natural and man-made, there is overwhelming evidence. Global warming is both natural and man-made, there is overwhelming evidence. Global warming is both natural and man-made, there is overwhelming evidence. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 13:33:46 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <5nmh9qFj4a88U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1192626288.976787.16790@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Oct 17, 7:32 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <1192578944.310398.75...@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> >> > On Oct 16, 8:40 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> In article <47141695.7CEF3...@spam.comcast.net>, >> >> David J Dachtera writes: >> >> >> > Neil Rieck wrote: >> >> >> >> On Oct 12, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> >> >> Koehler) wrote: >> >> >> > Congrats to Al Gore and the UN panel on the environment on the >> >> >> > Nobel Peace Prize. >> >> >> >> Some scientists predicted that the long sought after "North West >> >> >> Passage" would be permanently open sometime before 2015. Guess what? >> >> >> It opened last month. >> >> >> >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6995999.stm >> >> >> > Folks here probably know how Greenland got its name. >> >> >> Greenland, hell.... Hasn't anyone here ever read aboiut what they find >> >> in core samples taken through the ice in Antarctica? >> >> >> > Suffice it to say - circles are never-ending, and this is the next time around >> >> > this circle, one of many that comprise the cycles of this planet. >> >> >> But espousing that won't get you grant money to study Global Warming. >> >> > Bill, >> >> > Quick question: Suppose global warming really is what the scientists >> > say it is. What would be different that you or I would be able to read >> > of see compared to if it weren't? If you can't come up with some >> > significant difference, you can't rule out GW. >> >> But, based on existing data, I can rule out the supposed >> contribution of man. Major volcanic eruptions like Mt. >> Pinataubo and Mount St. Helens generate more greenhouse >> gases in a short period of time than man has since the >> start of the industrial age (this was measured, I think for >> the first time, when Mt. Pinataubo erupted. The information > > Can you supply a reference? Where did you learn this from? I'm sure it's still out on the Web somewhere. That was a long time ago. > "More > greenhouse gases" is a bit vague. Can you be more specific? Which > greenhouse gases and how much? Prety much all of them. The output from a volcano is rather noxious. > > And if this is true, why doesn't anyone bring this up? Surely the Wall > St. Journal would have a few full-page articles about it! And FOX News > would trumpet it. Etc. No, they woukldn't. Why? Because there's no money in it. Just like the fact that although people here are still trumpeting the "Bush stole Florida" mantra. The votes were gathered up and recounted by a totally independant body interested in it purely for research and the finding was that Bush actually won. This got less than a column inch on the backpage of a few obscure newspapers and no coverage at all in the mainstream press. Same reason. Controversy sells newspapers and magazines. > All I hear is things like the Weather Service > placing thermometers next to chimneys and down volcanoes and other > nonsense like that. The NWS does this kind of research all the time. I think they are one of the organizations with sensors on the Hawaiian volcanoes. But, when they come out with a statement that contradicts current popular trends (like when they said Katrina was perfectly inline with normal and natural weather patterns) they get no coverage. Why? See above!! > >> was published widely at the time, but is now buried away as >> it fails to support current trends.) I don't doubt that >> Global Warming exists. I just don't believe the crap put >> out by people like Al Gore who's purpose is anything but >> saving the world. >> >> Go back to my line above: "espousing that won't get you grant money >> to study Global Warming." I read articles everyday about "scientific" >> studies using faked data in order to prolong the flow of grant money. >> I have no reason to believe and lots of evidence to disbelieve that >> this is anything different. The scientific method is dead, long live >> the dollar. > > The dollar didn't work for cold fusion, n-rays, and the fifth force. I didn't say the dollar makes things possible. I said that if it is a choice between reality and money the scientist will choose money everytime. Can't live on reality. > These were bogus and were easily shown to be. After receiving millions (if not billions) in grant money. They're only problem was they were too provable and didn't last. Global warming, as espoused by current science, won't be proven for hundreds of years. That's a pretty long gravy-train. Why would you think anyone would risk de-railing it early? > So science lives. And > most of our whiz-bang technology works based on scientific results. We're not talking "whiz-bang technology" here. We are talking natural vs. man-made global warming. > For example, see recent articles about this year's Nobel prize in > physics, rewarding two scientists who discovered an important > previously unknown property of thin layers of atoms that makes iPods > and the like possible. I don't think iPods would work if this science > were faked. So science is not dead. And the iPod is an advance? Some of us think it's just a terrible waste of time, energy and resources. And probably contributes to man-made global warming!!! > > OTOH, there is string theory! But the genius of that is that it is not > testable! It is controversial if it is promising and worth further > funding, but if it starts making verifiable predictions, we can test > it and act according to the results. But you still can't rule it out > until you can test it. And if you can supress (or just ignore) all the data that doesn't support your pet theory you can ride the research gravy-train for a long time. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:03:33 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > But that is the problem with your whole comparison of DECNET versus TCPIP. > DECNET and TCPIP are communication protocols. NCP or NCL which control how > DECNET objects are setup and who can set them up are not part of the > communication protocol they are implementation specific management > structures. > It would be entirely possible to implement a version of those DECNET management > structures which would allow unprivileged users to setup DECNET objects You don't get it, do you? TCP/IP connections only require a host and port, then it's up to the application to decide if it cares about security. The system admin usually can't change that, unless he can add something like what Linux provides. The DECnet protocol for establishing communications includes a username and password. Only the system admin can tell the system to accept blanks. The unprivileged programmer can't change that. Only a privileged username can set up DECnet management structures such that unprivileged users could add DECnet objects. Being thoroughly familiar with those structures and thier APIs, I feel its a programming challenge to create that problem. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:24:03 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: We have DS15a systems (US/ROHS compliant) in stock Message-ID: <13hca4o2dkf2i8a@news.supernews.com> In new condition (we aren't allowed to sell them as new even though they were built within a month from today) complete with either VMS Base and NAS150 or VMS base and Eip (station/server) Call or email us with required configurations ! David Turner -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404 T: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 001 912 447 6622 E: dturner@islandco.com F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:54:51 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message news:471522F5.5040800@comcast.net... > 200,000+ files in one directory is so ridiculous I can scarcely imagine anyone doing it. > You are now finding out just one of the reasons why it's ridiculous. > > Can you just INIT the disk and start over? Or back up everything else, INIT and > restore? A bit drastic, perhaps. I would make a load of directories (say taking the last 2-3 digits of the version number). Then just SET FILE/NODIR and DELETE the original. Making sure I had a good backup just in case. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:39:37 -0400 From: "Mike Minor" Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: <13hc0kaieoshc71@corp.supernews.com> intersystems.public.cache at news.intersystems.com Mike Minor "David J Dachtera" wrote in message news:4715588B.A5D31B9A@spam.comcast.net... > Mike Minor wrote: >> >> wrote in message >> news:HmX+K+xGtyXe@eisner.encompasserve.org... >> > In article <13ha3tiakjblj1b@corp.supernews.com>, "Mike Minor" >> > writes: >> >> I have a directory with 200000+files, all in the a*.txt;1 range. I >> >> need >> >> to >> >> ftp these files to another server. After sending 30,000+ files via FTP >> >> I >> >> realized the magnatude of the ftp process, and interrupted it. I want >> >> to >> >> delete the 30,000+ file already ftp'ed before going back and looking >> >> at >> >> continueing the ftp process in a different manner and it just seems to >> >> be >> >> taking an extremely long time to perform the delete. I think the hang >> >> up >> >> is >> >> the re-write of the directory contents back to disk after a few files >> >> are >> >> deleted. I did the delete with a /log to watch how long it took to >> >> delete >> >> a >> >> file. I noticed a pause of a few seconds after it listed 15 to 20 >> >> files >> >> that >> >> were deleted..... >> > >> > Top posting. *sigh*. >> > >> > In any case, you've hit the "bubble down" problem that I alluded to. >> > And, because you want to delete the first 30,000 files in a 200,000 >> > file directory, reverse alphabetical order isn't going to do >> > much for you. >> > >> > Hmmmm... >> > >> > There _is_ a sneaky approach. >> > >> > How about if instead of >> > >> > $ delete a*.txt;1 >> > >> > you >> > >> > $ rename a*.txt;1 *.*;2 /log >> > >> > That should run pretty fast because the directory entries can be >> > modified in place. There won't be any "bubble down". >> > >> > You can press control-Y when you come to the 30,000th file. >> > >> > Then you can go back in and ftp all of your remaining version 1 files. >> > >> > ftp> mput a*.txt;1 >> > >> > When you're finished you can do a reverse alphabetical order delete >> > on the whole directory. >> > >> >> Sorry for the top down....the group I spend the most of my time in >> prefers >> it that way.... > > Really??!! Which group is that? Even the UN*X groups soundly thrash people > for > top posting. > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:46:20 -0400 From: "Mike Minor" Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: <13hc10u3be0dq3e@corp.supernews.com> Thanks to everyone that gave me a hand here. I really appreciate all of the information and suggestions. Thank you, Mike Minor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:48:12 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: <1192625292.223490.160000@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Oct 16, 8:59 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > Mike Minor wrote: > > > Is there any difference in the speed at which the command is executed in the > > following examples? > > > del a*.*;* > > del a*.txt;* > > del a*.txt;1 > > As I think you've discovered, the answer is, "it depends". Lots of ;1 files > means lots of directory entries - not necessarily a good or bad thing, just > something to consider, in light of what it takes to delete a single version file > at the beginning of a large directory. > > Unusual part of VMS directories is that a single directory entry can represent > multiple versions of a "name.ext". Pull a small directory into EDT sometime > (*PLEASE* use /READ!!!) and check it out. > > Each directory record begins with a length attribute (but you won't see that > because EDT does RECORD I/O!), then a version limit, some binary fields before > the "name.ext", then the version numbers and FIDs of the various versions out to > the end of the record. > > I don't have the code at hand just now, but I wrote a FILCNT.COM to count the > number of files in a directory simply by reading the directory. It never hits > the file headers, and so is a bit faster than trying to use the DIRECTORY > command using only the default qualifiers (/HEADING, /TRAILING). It does only > one READ for each directory entry, then calculates the number of versions > represented by the entry. David, Are you sure you ran DIR without file-header-hitting quals? I find DIRECTORY/TOTAL works much faster than DIR/TOTAL where DIR is a symbol defined to be something like the typical DIRECTORY/SIZE/DATE/ PROTECTION. Apparently, DIR/SIZE/DATE/PROT/TOTAL and similar commands hit the file headers just as if /TOTAL weren't there. So try it being sure you use JUST DIRECTORY/TOTAL. I just tried your program on a huge directory and DIRECTORY/TOTAL runs a little faster. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:50:52 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: <1192625452.947748.247180@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com> On Oct 17, 5:54 am, "Richard Brodie" wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in messagenews:471522F5.5040800@comcast.net... > > > 200,000+ files in one directory is so ridiculous I can scarcely imagine anyone doing it. > > You are now finding out just one of the reasons why it's ridiculous. > > > Can you just INIT the disk and start over? Or back up everything else, INIT and > > restore? > > A bit drastic, perhaps. I would make a load of directories > (say taking the last 2-3 digits of the version number). Then just > SET FILE/NODIR and DELETE the original. Making sure I > had a good backup just in case. Can you please explain what this means? Make a load of directories and do what? If you SET FILE/NODIR on a directory file that has files in it, the files will still be on the disk and have to be recovered via ANAL/DISK/ REPAIR and then deleted from [SYSLOST]. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:56:09 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: "AEF" wrote in message news:1192625452.947748.247180@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com... >> A bit drastic, perhaps. I would make a load of directories >> (say taking the last 2-3 digits of the version number). Then just >> SET FILE/NODIR and DELETE the original. Making sure I >> had a good backup just in case. > > Can you please explain what this means? Make a load of directories and > do what? Make alias entries for the files. Sorry, I rather overedited the previous post. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 06:08:43 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: <1192626523.482974.109900@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Oct 17, 8:48 am, AEF wrote: > On Oct 16, 8:59 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > > > > Mike Minor wrote: > > > > Is there any difference in the speed at which the command is executed in the > > > following examples? > > > > del a*.*;* > > > del a*.txt;* > > > del a*.txt;1 > > > As I think you've discovered, the answer is, "it depends". Lots of ;1 files > > means lots of directory entries - not necessarily a good or bad thing, just > > something to consider, in light of what it takes to delete a single version file > > at the beginning of a large directory. > > > Unusual part of VMS directories is that a single directory entry can represent > > multiple versions of a "name.ext". Pull a small directory into EDT sometime > > (*PLEASE* use /READ!!!) and check it out. > > > Each directory record begins with a length attribute (but you won't see that > > because EDT does RECORD I/O!), then a version limit, some binary fields before > > the "name.ext", then the version numbers and FIDs of the various versions out to > > the end of the record. > > > I don't have the code at hand just now, but I wrote a FILCNT.COM to count the > > number of files in a directory simply by reading the directory. It never hits > > the file headers, and so is a bit faster than trying to use the DIRECTORY > > command using only the default qualifiers (/HEADING, /TRAILING). It does only > > one READ for each directory entry, then calculates the number of versions > > represented by the entry. > > David, > > Are you sure you ran DIR without file-header-hitting quals? I find > DIRECTORY/TOTAL works much faster than DIR/TOTAL where DIR is a symbol > defined to be something like the typical DIRECTORY/SIZE/DATE/ > PROTECTION. Apparently, DIR/SIZE/DATE/PROT/TOTAL and similar commands > hit the file headers just as if /TOTAL weren't there. So try it being > sure you use JUST DIRECTORY/TOTAL. > > I just tried your program on a huge directory and DIRECTORY/TOTAL runs > a little faster. > > [...] > > AEF Sorry, I meant something like DIR/DATE/TOTAL, or with any other qualifiers that don't produce output with /TOTAL. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:08:32 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: In article <1192625452.947748.247180@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Oct 17, 5:54 am, "Richard Brodie" wrote: >> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in messagenews:471522F5.5040800@comcast.net... >> >> > 200,000+ files in one directory is so ridiculous I can scarcely imagine anyone doing it. >> > You are now finding out just one of the reasons why it's ridiculous. >> >> > Can you just INIT the disk and start over? Or back up everything else, INIT and >> > restore? >> >> A bit drastic, perhaps. I would make a load of directories >> (say taking the last 2-3 digits of the version number). Then just >> SET FILE/NODIR and DELETE the original. Making sure I >> had a good backup just in case. > > Can you please explain what this means? Make a load of directories and > do what? > > If you SET FILE/NODIR on a directory file that has files in it, the > files will still be on the disk and have to be recovered via ANAL/DISK/ > REPAIR and then deleted from [SYSLOST]. Reading between the lines I took his approach to be: Hash the file names from the original directory to split them into a bunch of separate buckets. Suggested hash functions are version number mod 1000 or version number mod 100. Create a directory for each such bucket $ SET FILE /ENTER each file from the original directory so it has a new entry in the chosen target directory. Nuke the original directory rather than deleting from it piecemeal. My impression is that the files in the case at hand are all version 1, so hashing them based on version number is a poor idea. I also get the impression that the original poster is trying to get his 200,000 files migrated to another system, probably in preparation to deleting them all anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:12:13 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: In article <13h9vel51sekc1b@corp.supernews.com>, "Mike Minor" writes: > Is there any difference in the speed at which the command is executed in the > following examples? > > del a*.*;* > del a*.txt;* > del a*.txt;1 > That depends on how many files fit the different patterns, of course, but I assume that's not what your point is. There is some work needed to process the wildcard and look for all the possible matches. If this actually becomes measureable it's probably being much more heavily influenced by other issues, such as a directory file larger than the directory cache. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:14:10 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: In article <13ha3tiakjblj1b@corp.supernews.com>, "Mike Minor" writes: > I have a directory with 200000+files, all in the a*.txt;1 range. I need to > ftp these files to another server. After sending 30,000+ files via FTP I > realized the magnatude of the ftp process, and interrupted it. I want to > delete the 30,000+ file already ftp'ed before going back and looking at > continueing the ftp process in a different manner and it just seems to be > taking an extremely long time to perform the delete. I think the hang up is > the re-write of the directory contents back to disk after a few files are > deleted. I did the delete with a /log to watch how long it took to delete a > file. I noticed a pause of a few seconds after it listed 15 to 20 files that > were deleted..... > This is a good reason to get and use DFU, but in the meantime you make get faster results via backup/delete to the null device. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:17:32 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: In article , "Richard Brodie" writes: > > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message > news:471522F5.5040800@comcast.net... > >> 200,000+ files in one directory is so ridiculous I can scarcely imagine anyone doing it. >> You are now finding out just one of the reasons why it's ridiculous. >> >> Can you just INIT the disk and start over? Or back up everything else, INIT and >> restore? > > A bit drastic, perhaps. I would make a load of directories > (say taking the last 2-3 digits of the version number). Then just > SET FILE/NODIR and DELETE the original. Making sure I > had a good backup just in case. > > ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:18:03 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Which delete statement is faster? Message-ID: In article , "Richard Brodie" writes: > > A bit drastic, perhaps. I would make a load of directories > (say taking the last 2-3 digits of the version number). Then just > SET FILE/NODIR and DELETE the original. Making sure I > had a good backup just in case. That's a good way to: a) temporarily loose disk space since all the files in the directory are still on the disk, just not entered into a directory b) make the next anal/disk/repair really slow as it enters all those lost files in [syslost] c) move the problem to having to delete all those files from [syslost] instead of thier original directory ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:47:17 -0000 From: Pengjun Subject: Why I can't change path in makefile Message-ID: <1192614437.590339.87180@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> I'm using GNU make 3.76.1 on OpenVMS 8.3, Here is the makefile: all: set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir] show def Here is my console snapshot: DKA0:[PJIA]make -ef makefile. set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir] show def DKA0:[PJIA] DKA0:[PJIA] I run "make -ef makefile" under path DKA0:[PJIA] , I hope the "show def" command can output "DKA0:[PJIA.TFDIR]", but the result is "DKA0:[PJIA]" Looks like the command "set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir]" didn't work at all. Does anyone can give me some help? thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:04:29 GMT From: =?GB2312?B?SmFuLUVyaWsgU28iZGVyaG9sbQ==?= Subject: Re: Why I can't change path in makefile Message-ID: <1%lRi.11589$ZA.7612@newsb.telia.net> Pengjun wrote: > I'm using GNU make 3.76.1 on OpenVMS 8.3, > > Here is the makefile: > all: > set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir] > show def > > Here is my console snapshot: > DKA0:[PJIA]make -ef makefile. > set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir] > show def > DKA0:[PJIA] > DKA0:[PJIA] > > I run "make -ef makefile" under path DKA0:[PJIA] , > I hope the "show def" command can output "DKA0:[PJIA.TFDIR]", but the > result is "DKA0:[PJIA]" > Looks like the command "set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir]" didn't work at all. > > Does anyone can give me some help? thanks in advance. > Is make running the "set def" in a subprocess ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:20:09 -0400 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Re: Why I can't change path in makefile Message-ID: <4715C5B9.21415.CAD10B1@infovax.stanq.com> On 17 Oct 2007 at 11:04, Jan-Erik So"derholm wrote: > Is make running the "set def" in a subprocess ? Yep. That's the way it works. Any reason why you have to change directories? Maybe you need to break the makefile into separate makefiles, one for each subdirectory, and then launch them from a master makefile. --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:23:22 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why I can't change path in makefile Message-ID: In article <1192614437.590339.87180@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Pengjun writes: > I'm using GNU make 3.76.1 on OpenVMS 8.3, > > Here is the makefile: > all: > set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir] > show def > > Here is my console snapshot: > DKA0:[PJIA]make -ef makefile. > set def DKA0:[pjia.tfdir] > show def > DKA0:[PJIA] > DKA0:[PJIA] > > I run "make -ef makefile" under path DKA0:[PJIA] , > I hope the "show def" command can output "DKA0:[PJIA.TFDIR]", but the > result is "DKA0:[PJIA]" I don't know about gnu make, but the DCL commands are probably being executed in a subprocess and it looks like a new subprocess is being started for each. Note that MMS doesn't have this problem, it keeps re-using the same subprocess. Maybe there's an option the gnu make to get it to re-use the same subprocess. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.568 ************************