INFO-VAX Wed, 10 Oct 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 554 Contents: Be ashamed, be *very* ashamed! Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: DEC them song - One more year at the trough! (Was: Re: OT: one Re: DFU on the freeware disks Re: DFU on the freeware disks Re: DFU on the freeware disks Re: DFU on the freeware disks Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: Glass Fish on OpenVMS? Shafting Loyal Customers (again) Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) the real truth about global warming! Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: the real truth about global warming! Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: We'll always have Munich Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic [ANN] Data Plotting Library DISLIN 9.2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:32:59 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Be ashamed, be *very* ashamed! Message-ID: Hi Jan-Erik, > Of course, just keep on using those 3G's. Why shouldn't you ? 'Cos everyone at VMS management tells you not to? That you're anachronistic filth that has no place on the VMS roadmap? That your only future is to be "wrappered" by some abstracted Java servlet/container layer in the brave new world of web services? 'Cos the VMS appologists (who sadly seem to be in charge these days) tell you that everything you've done for the last 20 years is rubbish and that you should keep ahead of the curve? > Becuse you can write faster apps (and probably write apps faster) > using traditional 3G's then Java. > I can't argue with you there! > And by using Distributed NetBeans on a Windows client, you don't > have to have *ANY* Java stuff on your lovely VMS box... Now I'm 110% behind you! > And I do not see any major problem working from a Windows client. > IT's where I have access to everything else I need at work such as > mail, "the web", PDF-doc files and everything else. Philisophically I have no issues here also. > Let the VMS system do what is does *better* then other envoronments, > and that is *not* workstation type of work ! Ditto. > I'm not a great fan of Java, but on the other side I couldn't > care less if a tool that does the job happens to be written > in Java. It's just a tool... Yes, but how much did VMS middle management authorize for its development and who were the blue-eyed boys who got the funding? As someone who is quite happy with TPU and *never* saw the need for LSE let alone an IDE, I just can't help wondering what all those DECset Licensees think of this *presumably free* functionality while they have to keep paying HP (EDS?) for existing (moth-balled?) functionality. Does NetBeans interface to SVN or Visual Source Safe? Backup? Is the debugging integration more than just eXcursion DECWindows stuff? What beautifiers do thay have for COBOL? Does NetBeans insist on parenthesis symmetry? Verb expansion? Lovely colors? Maybe I'm the only one who thinks substance (such as IPsec!) is more important than this froth or "bread & circuses"? Cheers Richard Maher "Jan-Erik Söderholm" wrote in message news:3OLOi.10765$ZA.7041@newsb.telia.net... > Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi Jan-Erik, > > > >> Well, maybe. > >> It's also the way to get *new/young* developers to write > >> software for VMS. > > > > Then surely they'd be writing it in Java, C++ or Perl and not wasting any > > time on that procedural (COBOL, BASIC, Pascal, Fortran or C) crap that > > grandpa used to write? > > Of course, just keep on using those 3G's. Why shouldn't you ? > > > PS. Jan-Erik could you please just explain to me why, if VMS has now spent > > millions implementing a Java JRE and SDK, that we need to develop with > > "distributed" NetBeans IDE on Windows (or a.n.other) rather than native > > NetBeans on VMS? > > Becuse you can write faster apps (and probably write apps faster) > using traditional 3G's then Java. > > And by using Distributed NetBeans on a Windows client, you don't > have to have *ANY* Java stuff on your lovely VMS box... > > And I do not see any major problem working from a Windows client. > IT's where I have access to everything else I need at work such as > mail, "the web", PDF-doc files and everything else. > > Let the VMS system do what is does *better* then other envoronments, > and that is *not* workstation type of work ! > > I'm not a great fan of Java, but on the other side I couldn't > care less if a tool that does the job happens to be written > in Java. It's just a tool... > > > I really like Eclipse at the moment but let's not go there > > just yet > > And in same way, I coudln't care less what the tool is called > as long as it does the job. > > Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:32:50 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: In article <470C2ACD.F18F3162@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > >Tom Linden wrote: >> >> I recently hooked up a Xyplex terminal server to the serioal ports of the >> various nodes. I had to shutdown the VAX 7.3 4000/90 in order to expand a >> shadow set. >> >> So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a >> message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. >> >> I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be correctly >> set >> I see that its value is 00000001. Is this the correct setting? Is there >> perhaps >> another interfering variable? > >You may need to be able to send a BREAK signal (in leiu of the interrupt button) >to get to the dead sargeant, and that may require the "alternate console", if >the 4000/90 does that shtick. > >FWIW... I haven't touched a Xyplex terminal server since my .Mil days. DECservers can have ports set to pass a break through to the connected server -- DEFINE PORT BREAK REMOTE. I have a 4000/96 here Tom if you'd like to have me test it out for you. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:00:07 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 04:32:50 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > In article <470C2ACD.F18F3162@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera > writes: >> >> >> Tom Linden wrote: >>> >>> I recently hooked up a Xyplex terminal server to the serioal ports of >>> the >>> various nodes. I had to shutdown the VAX 7.3 4000/90 in order to >>> expand a >>> shadow set. >>> >>> So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a >>> message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. >>> >>> I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be >>> correctly >>> set >>> I see that its value is 00000001. Is this the correct setting? Is >>> there >>> perhaps >>> another interfering variable? >> >> You may need to be able to send a BREAK signal (in leiu of the >> interrupt button) >> to get to the dead sargeant, and that may require the "alternate >> console", if >> the 4000/90 does that shtick. >> >> FWIW... > > I haven't touched a Xyplex terminal server since my .Mil days. > DECservers can > have ports set to pass a break through to the connected server -- DEFINE > PORT > BREAK REMOTE. I have a 4000/96 here Tom if you'd like to have me test > it out > for you. Yes, please. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:28:51 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: <757Pi.183$et6.131@newsfe12.lga> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: {...snip...} >> I haven't touched a Xyplex terminal server since my .Mil days. >> DECservers can >> have ports set to pass a break through to the connected server -- DEFINE >> PORT >> BREAK REMOTE. I have a 4000/96 here Tom if you'd like to have me test >> it out >> for you. >Yes, please. DECserver 90TL using a breakout box and some converters change from 8 pin RJ modular jack on DECserver 90TL to 6 pin MMJ modular on VAX 4000/96. DECserver port settings: ======================= Port 7: Server: DS90TL2 Character Size: 8 Input Speed: 9600 Flow Control: XON Output Speed: 9600 Parity: None Signal Control: Disabled Stop Bits: Dynamic Access: Remote Local Switch: None Backwards Switch: None Name: PORT_7 Break: Remote Session Limit: 4 Forwards Switch: None Type: Ansi Default Protocol: LAT Preferred Service: None Authorized Groups: 0 (Current) Groups: 0 Enabled Characteristics: Input Flow Control, Output Flow Control Local> On Alpha: ======== $ MCR LATCP SHOW PORT $CONSOLE Local Port Name: _LTA333: Local Port Type: Application (Queued) Local Port State: Active Connected Link: LAT$LINK_1 Target Port Name: PORT_7 Actual Port Name: PORT_7 Target Node Name: DS90TL2 Actual Node Name: DS90TL2 Target Service Name: Actual Service Name: $ SET HOST/DTE $CONSOLE %REM-I-TOQUIT, connection established Press Ctrl/\ to quit, Ctrl/@ for command mode >>> SHOW CONFIG KA49-A V1.4-0D0-V4.4 100 MHZ 08-00-2B-2B-03-7C 80MB DEVNBR DEVNAM INFO ------ -------- -------------------------- 1 NVR OK 2 LCSPX OK Highres 72Hz - 8 Plane 4Mpixel FB - V1.1 3 DZ OK 4 CACHE OK 5 MEM OK 80MB 0A,0B,0C,0D=16MB, 1E,1F,1G,1H=4MB 6 FPU OK 7 IT OK 8 SYS OK 9 NI OK 10 SCSI OK 0-L0-2112-15 1-L0-2112-15 6-INITR 11 AUD OK 13 TCA OK OPT PRS V1.0 >>> BOOT -DKA0 %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) {At this point I type CTRL-]} ?02 EXT HLT PC= 8484CD47 PSL= 04030004 >>> CTRL-] sends a break. The DECserver port is setup with Break: REMOTE so that a break is passed through. If you want to check it out for yourself, let me know. I can setup a login for you to play around with this. FYI, I forgot how *loud* the drives were in this VAXstation 4000/96. %) -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:52:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DEC them song - One more year at the trough! (Was: Re: OT: one Message-ID: In article <3OLOi.10765$ZA.7041@newsb.telia.net>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: > > Becuse you can write faster apps (and probably write apps faster) > using traditional 3G's then Java. But isn't that why I'm alrady using Netbean on my VMS box? > And by using Distributed NetBeans on a Windows client, you don't > have to have *ANY* Java stuff on your lovely VMS box... But I do all my Java development on VMS. > And I do not see any major problem working from a Windows client. > IT's where I have access to everything else I need at work such as > mail, "the web", PDF-doc files and everything else. Includes the virii, and the 18 critical secutiry updates I'm downloading right now for the box I'm forced to use. > Let the VMS system do what is does *better* then other envoronments, > and that is *not* workstation type of work ! VMS does workstations better than any other platform. The problem is people like you keep convincing workstation application vendors not to. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:52:10 GMT From: "Brian Tillman" Subject: Re: DFU on the freeware disks Message-ID: <_V3Pi.57419$Um6.1762@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net> "IanMiller" wrote in message news:1191330497.463328.30050@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > I don't think the VAX version has been updated since V2.7A At the moment, I'm running V2.7-1. How is the -A version different, if you know? -- Brian Tillman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:56:12 GMT From: "Brian Tillman" Subject: Re: DFU on the freeware disks Message-ID: "Jur van der Burg" <"vdburg at hotmail dot com"> wrote in message news:4704b9fa$0$234$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl... > I'm not ignoring the Vax base, DFU runs perfectly fine on Vax although > it's not the latest version. Spending loads of time keeping a Vax version > on par with Alpha or Ia64 is not high on my list of things, and it would > prevent using new things that are possible on Alpha/Ia64 and not on Vax. My point is that if you do add new functionality AND it's possible to do on a VAX, then you SHOULD include the VAX, rather that orphaning it. -- Brian Tillman. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:01:44 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: DFU on the freeware disks Message-ID: Brian Tillman wrote: > "Jur van der Burg" <"vdburg at hotmail dot com"> wrote in message > news:4704b9fa$0$234$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl... > >> I'm not ignoring the Vax base, DFU runs perfectly fine on Vax although >> it's not the latest version. Spending loads of time keeping a Vax version >> on par with Alpha or Ia64 is not high on my list of things, and it would >> prevent using new things that are possible on Alpha/Ia64 and not on Vax. > > My point is that if you do add new functionality AND it's possible to do > on a VAX, then you SHOULD include the VAX, rather that orphaning it. If there is a justifying ROI, yes. That it is "possible" isn't enough, of course... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:42:32 -0700 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: DFU on the freeware disks Message-ID: <1192030952.887458.59610@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> As Jur is doing this in his spare time and no one is paying him to do this then I expect he will concentrate on new things. If you pay him to make a new VAX version that would be different. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:56:12 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: <6Dlm$je7mRIt@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <86ROi.416$ul3.5@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > I would be terrified/horrified to type on any publicly accessible computer, > especially those running Micro$haft Weendoze as I have seen in the internet > cafes in Europe. Even if your username/password was only to access Google > to post to comp.os.vms. How many people do you think now know your Google > Groups access info? And if HP did gove her a laptop, what makes you think it would be any more secure than any other copy of Windows? (Unless HP starts making laptops that run something else.) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:49:10 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Glass Fish on OpenVMS? Shafting Loyal Customers (again) Message-ID: In article , "Richard Maher" writes: > Hi, > > How many people would be interested in running Glass Fish on OpenVMS, Alpha > or Integrity? > Of those, how many would want to: Glash Fish? Is that the name of the little fellows who survived the explosion? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 04:22:34 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1192015354.232581.186140@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 7:51 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Oct 8, 11:44 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > > > > On 10/08/07 09:04, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Oct 7, 11:02 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > >> On Oct 4, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > >>> Question: > > >>> In my mind, a religious person has always been a compassionate person > > >>> willing to share wealth, help others, live a good honest life and make > > >>> sure to protect god's creations (wether humans or animals or the planet). > > >>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with > > >>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill > > >>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping > > >>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > > >>> Or is it a case of religious persons in the USA supporting one party > > >>> that is 99% against what they believe in just because the agree with the > > >>> remaining 1% (abortion) ? > > >> True Christians are non-violent evangelists but many North American > > >> Christians are obsessed with escatology and other end-time nonsense. > > >> They think it is OK to destroy the Earth because Christ will return > > >> soon and make everything right. > > > > you been following revelation lately? > > > > 1. when Israel becomes a nation again, the time of the > > > gentiles will be fulfilled ... 1948 > > > It (Christ's Return) was supposed to happen within 1 generation of > > 1948. That's 25-30 years. > > > It's been 60. > > > > 2. He will gather the jews from the all over the world back, > > > and from the land of the north (Moscow, Russia) ... 1988 > > > the Berlin wall falls as well as communism and since then > > > over 2 million jews have left for Israel ... > > > Well, ok. You're right about that one. > > > > 3. wars and rumors of wars ... world war I, II, korean, vietnam, > > > Iraq 1, Iraq 2, plus many others smaller ones ... Iran? > > > Israel and Syria? > > > Humans have been fighting wars since the beginning of civilization. > > > > 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... > > > I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even > > from classical Greece. > > > > 5. earthquakes in divers places ... happening and increasing ... > > > Earthquakes where people go SCUBA swimming? Oh, my! > > > Earthquakes along fault zones? Shocking! > > > Recording more earthquakes because we've got more (and more > > sensitive) seismographs spread across the world? Amazing! > > > > 6. old roman empire reforms ... EU > > > Somehow, I don't see Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libia, Egypt, > > Israel, Jordan and Syria joining the EU. > > > > 7. a failing away from the church ... happening > > > And a damned good thing, too. > > > > when you see these signs, look up, for your redemption is near ... > > > > Daniel, Isaiah and other prophecies in the bible confirm > > > revelation ... > > > Paul expected the return 1,940 years ago. > > > -- > > Ron Johnson, Jr. > > Jefferson LA USA > > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > a generation in the bible is 40, 70 or 80 years ... > > it does not say it would happen a generation after Israel becomes > a nation again ... it says when the fig tree (Israel) blossoms, that > generation will see the end ... maybe Israel retaking Jerusalem > is what God is reffering to ... or maybe the 70 or 80 years added > on to Israel becoming a nation is that happening, but when Israel > became a nation again, that signalled the end of the time of the > gentiles and started the countdown ... we ARE in the last days ...- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - No person, no book, no crystal ball can predict the future. But I do know one thing for sure: if "we" beleive we are in end times then we will behave irrationally. NSR ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:43:49 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > http://goodshit.phlap.net/2007/10/post_15962.html > > in it's copy of the New Scientist article on compressed air storage mentions > this at the end > > " > FLYWHEEL ENERGY STORAGE: Using electrical motors to spin up a flywheel to as > much as 80,000 rpm can store up to 150 kilowatt-hours as kinetic energy. > " Flywheel energy storage peaked in interest back in the 70s when flywheels made of composites were shown able to store much greater energies than those made of other materials. But they still weren't practial compared to other methods, like storing energy in gasoline. Yes, most of the energy in gasoline was stored in the petroleum it's made from millions of years ago, but some is added during refining. Together those sources have made it and other petroleum derivatives a pretty difficult collection of fuels to complete against. Personally I prefer direct transmission of energy from a nuke to my home via electric lines, with no storage needed. But when I upgrade to a larger place I'm going to wish GE would bring back the storage battery based lawn tractor. My 20" Black and Decker and its cord aren't adaquate for anything over the 1/4 acre I've got now. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:45:52 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > You mean tried and true social institutions such as > slavery or rule by an absolute monarch. Be carefull, you'll find both of those in the Bible. ;-) But since the liberals moved us aways from them before the oldest of the conservatives were born, those changes are now conservative causes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:03:08 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article <1191957496.841321.199690@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >On Oct 9, 1:48 am, "Rudolf Wingert" wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's >> the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and >> times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should >> do, what we can do to prevent the earth. >> AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians >> should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can >> do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. >> Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to >> stop the global warming. >> >> Best regards Rudolf Wingert > >well, maybe we could send a spaceship full of dry ice >into the sun? > >You cannot cool the sun ... > Dry ice might actually work though you would need rather a lot of it :) A star's temperature and luminosity depend not just on it's mass but also to some extent on it's metal content. Stars with lower metal content tend to be hotter and more luminous. (In this context metal is anything other than hydrogen and helium). Build your own star at http://www.seed.slb.com/en/scictr/lab/byo_star/index.htm Unfortunately although this can be used to show the effect of decreasing the metal content of the Sun the maximum metal content allowed in the simulation is the actual content of the Sun. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:27:23 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: > I do (for a file named FILE.LOG) : > > $ rename FILE.LOG.* FILE.TMP.0 > $ rename FILE.TMP.* FILE.LOG.0 > > The result is FILE.LOG's starting on ;1. > The app that create FILE.LOG should probably > be stalled/blocked during the rename's. > > Now, it's not clear top me what the DCL script > above does that my two commands doesn't. I'm sure > I must be missing something... I think that WE are missing something---namely that there is a much better way to do what we want to do! Suggestion: replace "rename" with "backup/delete" and you get the same effect without changing the modified date! My guess is that your code is not 100% officially supported for doing what you are doing with it (renumbering files starting at 1), but that DCL is built such that one can always count on this working! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:43:36 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article , > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= > writes: > >> I do (for a file named FILE.LOG) : >> >> $ rename FILE.LOG.* FILE.TMP.0 >> $ rename FILE.TMP.* FILE.LOG.0 >> >> The result is FILE.LOG's starting on ;1. >> The app that create FILE.LOG should probably >> be stalled/blocked during the rename's. >> >> Now, it's not clear top me what the DCL script >> above does that my two commands doesn't. I'm sure >> I must be missing something... > > I think that WE are missing something---namely that there is a much > better way to do what we want to do! > > Suggestion: replace "rename" with "backup/delete" and you get the same > effect without changing the modified date! The nice thing with "rename" is that no data is moving around, so it runs quite fast. "Backup/delete" will shuffle all data around two times, right ? > > My guess is that your code is not 100% officially supported for doing > what you are doing with it (renumbering files starting at 1), but that > DCL is built such that one can always count on this working! > It's been run for well over 5 years in prod each night re-versioning (?) aprox 2000 files each time. I've seen no problems so far. The job is run on the same batch queue where the jobs that creates the logs are running, so they are stalled during the process. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:20:07 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: <7PwPJxjt71Rl@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: > Michael Moroney wrote: >> JF Mezei writes: >> >>> Investigating while I wasn't getting emails from a specific store, I >>> first found that my TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG log files were at version >>> 32767 ... :-( so no new logfiles were being created (but I am still >>> receiving new mail though , interesting development !) >> >> $! REVERSION.COM - Renames the versions of a file to be sequential starting >> $! at version ;1. Useful to prevent frequently created log files, etc. from >> $! reaching version ;32767, at which point no more versions can be created. >> $! To use: $ PURGE/KEEP=n file.ext (suggested), then $ @REVERSION file.ext >> $! After this, the versions of the file are numbered ;1, ;2, ... ;n. >> $! Author: Michael Moroney Aug. 2007 >> $!-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> $ if p1.eqs."" then goto usage ! No null filenames >> $ if f$locate(";",p1) .ne. f$length(p1) then goto usage ! No versions >> $ file = p1 + ";" ! Base filename >> $ f1 = f$search(file) >> $ if f1 .eqs. "" then goto fnf ! Quit if nonexistent >> $ f2 = f$search(file + "-0") >> $ v1 = f$integer(f$parse(f1,,,"version")-";") ! v1 = highest version >> $ v2 = f$integer(f$parse(f2,,,"version")-";") ! v2 = lowest version >> $ k = v1-v2+1 ! Max. # of files >> $ i = 1 ! i=new version >> $ j = v2 ! j=old version >> $loop: >> $ g1 = f$search(file+f$string(j)) >> $ if g1 .eqs. "" then goto skip1 ! ignore any gaps >> $ if i .eq. j then goto skip2 ! skip no-op rename >> $ g2 = ";" + f$string(i) >> $ rename/nolog 'g1 'g2 ! rename one file >> $skip2: >> $ i = i+1 ! increment new vers. >> $skip1: >> $ j = j+1 ! increment old vers. >> $ k = k-1 >> $ if k .gt. 0 then goto loop ! loop til done >> $ exit >> $usage: >> $ write sys$output "@REVERSION filename.ext (no versions or wildcards)" >> $ exit %x28 >> $fnf: >> $ exit %x18292 > > I do (for a file named FILE.LOG) : > > $ rename FILE.LOG.* FILE.TMP.0 > $ rename FILE.TMP.* FILE.LOG.0 > > The result is FILE.LOG's starting on ;1. > The app that create FILE.LOG should probably > be stalled/blocked during the rename's. > > Now, it's not clear top me what the DCL script > above does that my two commands doesn't. I'm sure > I must be missing something... I see two significant differences. Three if you want to quibble about performance of a two pass rename in the context of a very large directory. 1. What happens if you don't block the app creating FILE.LOG? 2. What happens if your renames get interrupted partway through? As I read the script logic, it starts from the oldest version and works its way up. It restricts itself to acting on a total number of files estimated by looking at the newest version minus the oldest version plus one. If new versions are created while the script is doing its work, these versions will typically not be touched. If the estimate is out of whack (i.e. if gaps in the version sequence exist), the newer versions may be touched, but they will still wind up in chronological order. If the script is interrupted you'll still wind up with the versions in chronological order, albeit with a gap in the version number sequence. This situation will be automatically corrected the next time the script is run. As an added bonus, if there is a gap in the version number sequence (as would happen if log files are created during execution) then the next time the script is run it will tend to over-estimate the number of files to be renamed and will tend to process files created during that run. Intentional or not, this is a rather nifty feature -- if log files are rarely created on the fly, log files that are created during a run will normally be left alone. But if log files are often created on the fly, log files that are created during a run will normally be processed. A self-tuning application. As I trace the two-command approach, the first rename starts from the newest version and works its way down. Any files created during this rename are going to be interleaved with the other renamed files. Chronological order may be destroyed during the first rename. The second rename starts from the newest renamed version (typically the oldest original version) and works its way down. Any files created during this rename are going to be interleaved with the other renamed files. Chronological order may be destroyed during the second rename. If either rename is interrupted, you end up with temporary files laying around. If you try to repair this situation, you'll probably do more damage to the chronological version number order. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:58:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > > That's in reference to VMS implementations of TCP/IP, right? It's a pretty well broken protocol anyhow. Any network protocol that allows outsideers to make a connection without some action by the local admin to provide access credentials always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:00:17 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: <5O5Pi.10878$ZA.7083@newsb.telia.net> briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > I see two significant differences. Three if you want to quibble about > performance of a two pass rename in the context of a very large directory. It would surprice me a lot of not 2 wildcarded renames didn't run faster then an aprox 10 line DCL loop for each file, including one of the renames anyway. > 1. What happens if you don't block the app creating FILE.LOG? Well, *I* don't care, since *I* do block the batchjob creating the LOGs. :-) YMMM, of course... > As I trace the two-command approach, the first rename starts from > the newest version and works its way down. Any files created > during this rename are going to be interleaved with the other renamed > files. Chronological order may be destroyed during the first rename. If the creating job is blocked, it is preserved, but reversed. > The second rename starts from the newest renamed version (typically > the oldest original version) and works its way down. Any files created > during this rename are going to be interleaved with the other renamed > files. Chronological order may be destroyed during the second rename. The cronological order is recreated. > > If either rename is interrupted, you end up with temporary files laying > around. If you try to repair this situation, you'll probably do more > damage to the chronological version number order. And in *my* case my main concern is to have the logs *at all*. The cronological order is of no importance to me, the *content* is. As a side note about logs, and as far as I know, if FTP, SMTP, REXEC (and also the NETSERVER.LOG if I'm not wrong) gets to the highest versions number, that's no big deal, everything just runs as usual anyway. I actualy have a faint recollection of seeing a performance hint that said that one can pre-allocate the LOG files with the highest version, and then save one file allocation in the startup of each of the services. Save a few I/O's I guess... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:14:59 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: briggs@encompasserve.org writes: >In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >> Michael Moroney wrote: >>> >>> $! REVERSION.COM - Renames the versions of a file to be sequential starting ... >> >> I do (for a file named FILE.LOG) : >> >> $ rename FILE.LOG.* FILE.TMP.0 >> $ rename FILE.TMP.* FILE.LOG.0 >> >> The result is FILE.LOG's starting on ;1. >> The app that create FILE.LOG should probably >> be stalled/blocked during the rename's. >> >> Now, it's not clear top me what the DCL script >> above does that my two commands doesn't. I'm sure >> I must be missing something... The script allows the reversioning while the app is still running. The rename potentially allows new versions to be inserted in the middle (rather than the highest version) if it gets created during the rename. This may or may not be important. The script will keep the correct order, although there will be a gap between the new log file and the next one down. (the new log file will have whatever version it would have had if the script were never run) >I see two significant differences. Three if you want to quibble about >performance of a two pass rename in the context of a very large directory. >As I read the script logic, it starts from the oldest version and >works its way up. It restricts itself to acting on a total number >of files estimated by looking at the newest version minus the oldest >version plus one. >If new versions are created while the script is doing its work, >these versions will typically not be touched. If the estimate >is out of whack (i.e. if gaps in the version sequence exist), >the newer versions may be touched, but they will still wind up >in chronological order. The scan goes from the oldest version at the time of the test to the newest version. It doesn't matter if there are any gaps, any versions created after the script starts running (and before the last rename) won't be renamed. There will be a gap between this version and the next one down. >If the script is interrupted you'll still wind up with the versions >in chronological order, albeit with a gap in the version number sequence. >This situation will be automatically corrected the next time the script >is run. As an added bonus, if there is a gap in the version number >sequence (as would happen if log files are created during execution) >then the next time the script is run it will tend to over-estimate >the number of files to be renamed and will tend to process files >created during that run. >Intentional or not, this is a rather nifty feature -- if log files are >rarely created on the fly, log files that are created during a >run will normally be left alone. But if log files are often created >on the fly, log files that are created during a run will normally >be processed. A self-tuning application. (Unfortunately) it doesn't do this. New versions created after the script determines which version corresponds to ";" will not be reordered. The renames stop when this version is reached. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 11:07:45 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP receiver issues (SYSTEM-F-NOLINKS) Message-ID: In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > briggs@encompasserve.org writes: [snip] >>Intentional or not, this is a rather nifty feature -- if log files are >>rarely created on the fly, log files that are created during a >>run will normally be left alone. But if log files are often created >>on the fly, log files that are created during a run will normally >>be processed. A self-tuning application. > > (Unfortunately) it doesn't do this. New versions created after the script > determines which version corresponds to ";" will not be reordered. The > renames stop when this version is reached. Ahh, right. You're processing 'file' version j at each step rather than 'file' version -0. So you'll stop when j = highest pre-existing version. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:18:36 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: <1192022316.455768.317790@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=202 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:58:24 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: <1192024704.537948.186430@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Oct 10, 9:40 am, Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article <1192022316.455768.317...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > >http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=202 > > Please carry on such discussions in an _appropriate_ newsgroup. such as? a little variety is good for a news group! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:33:02 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >On Oct 10, 9:40 am, Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >> In article <1192022316.455768.317...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >> >http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=202 >> >> Please carry on such discussions in an _appropriate_ newsgroup. >such as? sci.environment, sci.energy, talk.environment, [local group].environment, appropiate *.politics.* groups etc. >a little variety is good for a news group! No, if groups get too "noisy", people will start leaving. There aren't all that many places to get good VMS information nowadays, I'd hate to lose anyone. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 03:04:10 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: the real truth about global warming! Message-ID: <13gq3a8icru5m03@corp.supernews.com> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > On Oct 10, 9:40 am, Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > >>In article <1192022316.455768.317...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >> >>>http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=202 >> >>Please carry on such discussions in an _appropriate_ newsgroup. > > > such as? a.bsu.religion alt.religion.kibology alt.religion.scientology [FAQ] aus.religion clari.news.religion hsv.religion pdaxs.religion.christian pdaxs.religion.jewish pdaxs.religion.misc pdaxs.religion.moslem pdaxs.religion.newage sanet.talk.religion soc.religion.bahai [FAQ] soc.religion.christian soc.religion.eastern soc.religion.islam [FAQ] soc.religion.quaker [FAQ] talk.religion.misc [FAQ] talk.religion.newage [FAQ] tamu.religion.christian soc.religion.christian.bible-study [FAQ] alt.religion.monica git.talk.religion soc.religion.shamanism [FAQ] utexas.religion.christian alt.religion.eckankar 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alt.religion.islam.shia fr.soc.religion alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic alt.religion.jewish.daf-discuss alt.religion.w-w-chuch-god es.charla.religion alt.religion.end-times.prophecies alt.religion.christian.baptist alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox alt.religion.christian.lutheran alt.religion.christian.episcopal alt.religion.christian.methodist alt.religion.christian.pentecostal alt.religion.christian.presbyterian alt.religion.clergy alt.religion.jehovahs-witn alt.religion.drew-hamilton alt.religion.gnostic.orders alt.religion.bahai alt.religion.vran alt.religion.totology alt.religion.paulo-dimas.temples 8< 325 groups snipped 8< alive.religion england.religion.islam msn.forums.religion.romancatholic.biblestudy alt.religion.artbulla alt.religion.christian-identity alt.religion.clue alt.religion.h2o alt.religion.rational alt.religion.sputnik.beep.beep.beep alt.religion.voodoo.scott-abraham alt.religion.yuism england.religion.misc alt.religion.christian.reformed 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soc.religion.christian.promisekeepers alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic alt.religion.christian.baptist alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox alt.religion.christian.lutheran alt.religion.christian.episcopal alt.religion.christian.methodist alt.religion.christian.pentecostal alt.religion.christian.presbyterian fido7.ru.christianity alt.religion.christian.biblestudy alt.music.christian.rock alt.religion.christian.adventist han.soc.religion.christianity.catholic han.soc.religion.christianity.protestant alt.fan.sodomy.christian alt.politics.metal.anti-christian alt.recovery.christian.abuse alt.religion.christian.youth-ministry alt.religion.christian.elbrujo alt.religion.christian.campus-crusade alt.religion.christian.plymouth.brethren alt.religion.christian.intervarsity alt.religion.christian.ywam fido7.christianos alt.religion.christian.hypocrisy alt.religion.christianity.hypocrisy 8< 100 groups snipped 8< alt.politics.us.christian-democrat alt.religion.christian-identity alt.religion.christian.reformed alt.religion.christian.anabaptist alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.christian.rock fido.ru.christianity alt.religion.christianalt.christnet.bible alt.music.christian alt.religion.christian.calvarychapel alt.religion.christian.chinese alt.religion.christian.penetcostal > a little variety is good for a news group! Off-topic polemic always belongs elsewhere. -- How beautiful you are, my darling! Oh, how beautiful! Your eyes behind your veil are doves. Your hair ... Your teeth ... Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon ... Your neck ... Your two breasts are ... Until the day breaks and the shadows flee, I will go to the mountain of myrrh and to the hill of incense. You are a garden fountain, a well of flowing water ... Let my lover come into his garden and taste its choice fruits. [Song of Songs; Chapter 4; excerpts] There's a sermon you rarely hear preached! ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:31:28 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: In article , Gilles Pion writes: > > You could use "readlink" as a more or less equivalent of "$trnlnm", "symlink" > will be use to replace $crelnm, and you may think of logical name tables in > term of directories ( $crelnt -> mkdir). The unix file protection of the > directory will be used to provide groupwide access control. If the group logical name table is being used only to control access and make sure that all the detached processes see the same value that will work. But if the OP is also using the group logical name table to allow different groups to have different values then he needs to add some code to take the UNIX GID and use it in the path name of the directory where he puts the links. Or he could just put the data in a file, use that file's mode to control access, and use the GID in the path or filename if he needs to support multiple groups. While there are some features of logical names which can be emualted by links when finding files, I've found the use of logical names to store data (as the OP said he is doing) is often more directly emulated by putting that data in a file. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 07:34:22 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: In article <5n20vhFfrg1cU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm > and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! > The OP wants controlled access to data which applications use to control their processing. There are a great many ways to achieve that on UNIX and his original posting made it look like he was open to any. So what in your masterfull opinion is "THE method in common use on Unix"? (emphasis mine) Any of the proposed methods can be followed through to a successfull implementation. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 12:56:30 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <5n40fuFdnvi9U1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5n20vhFfrg1cU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Or you could just stop trying to write Unix software using a VMS paradigm >> and write it as Unix software using the methods in common use on Unix!! >> > > The OP wants controlled access to data which applications use to > control their processing. There are a great many ways to achieve > that on UNIX and his original posting made it look like he was open > to any. > > So what in your masterfull opinion is "THE method in common use on > Unix"? (emphasis mine) I didn't say "THE method" (emphasis yours), I said "the methods" as I am willing to allow that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Especially in the Unix world. I would need a lot more information than a simple vague USENET article before I would undertake engineering a solution. I would certainly not spend the majority of my time trying to imitate VMS logicals. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:31:46 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich Message-ID: <470d0c92$0$25496$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 10-10-2007 13:59 Richard Maher wrote... > Hi Tom, > >> Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look > > Thanks for that, and here you go: - > > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html > Using that link, my IE7 said: ERROR 500 - The server has encountered an unexpected condition. Assign channel system service request failed ... /sys$common/syshlp/examples/tier3/demo_client_web.html Additional information: 1xx, 2xx, 3xx, 4xx, 5xx, Help -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WASD/9.1.1 Server at manson.vistech.net Port 80 Some of this actually suggests VMS! Hope this helps you troubleshoot. Wilm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:59:12 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Message-ID: Hi Tom, > Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look Thanks for that, and here you go: - http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html In order to be able to use this Queue Manager example successfully you will need:- 1) Javascript enabled 2) Java Applets enabled 3) Can't be behind a Firewall that forbids all unknown outgoing connections (otherwise open-up 5255) 4) Must be running SUN's JRE 1.4.2_13 or later (1.6 is advised) http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp If you're using Mac OS X then you must be running Apple's J2SE 1.5 or later, and you must also be a bit of a self-starter, a bit tech-savy, and be able to spot a HOLD button when you see one; L-Platers are advised to focus elsewhere. If you'd prefer to lay on your back with your wee flippers flailing madly in the air, while whining "Boo-Hoo it doesn't work" then COV is definitely the place for you, but if like Graham and Craig you're able to distinguish your arse from your elbow when it comes to Mac OS X then you're in for a rewarding experience. 5) Must be running Internet Explorer (6 or later) or Firefox (Haven't tested other browsers) Safari also works If need be, turn on the Java Console (Settings/Controle pannel/Java Plug-in/Console on) and, if using Firefox, the Error Console. (You just gotta love FireBug!!!) All things being equal you should then be prompted (via Java modal dialogue box) for:- Username: TIER3_DEMO Password: QUEUE If things are still going well, enter an asterix "*" for the Queue Name and you will see the List-of-values appear with all the available queues on the Deathrow cluster. Now click on the "Get Job Info" button and we're away! If not the Java Console should give you a message. If you're slightly curious as to exactly how easily this full-function, high-quality, high-performance GUI has gained access to the VMS servers that we all know and love, then all the source code is available at http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/ (Can also help to track down any problems) If you'd like to use this application on an ongoing basis from your normal Inmate Username/Password then please contact me and I will see if it's possible. Cheers Richard Maher Here's some of the functionality-catwalk highlights from the example: - 1) Full, one-time, context-specific, VMS User Authentication. No Cookies, Session IDs, Password Caching or generic Work-Station or Browser credentials! When you load the demo_client_web.html page into your browser, a Java Applet is automatically activated that prompts the user for their VMS Username and Password via a modal dialogue box. If authorization fails, the "Access Denied" page will be displayed and VMS Intrusion Detection (in accordance with the policy set out by your System Manager) will be enforced, and Login-Failures is incremented in SYSUAF. Alternatively, if authorization is successful (and you left the "Display Logon Confirmation" box ticked) then a Welcome dialog box will be displayed detailing last login times and the number of unsuccessful login attempts (if any). Login-Failures is now set to zero and last non-interactive login time is set to the current time. If you refresh this page, or move to a different page, then the server connection is broken and you must be re-authorised before continuing to access the Demo Queue Manager application. 2) A Hot-Abort button! After you have pressed the "Get Job Info" button you'll notice that the "Abort Request" button becomes active and turns red. (Actually you probably won't notice 'cos this query completes too quickly :-) You can edit the DEMO_UARS.COB code and change the value of the DEBUG_DELAY field if you want to see your 3GL Interrupt routine in action.) In this case the cancel-flag I've set in the AST routine is picked up in the mainline code, resulting in the graceful termination of the loop that controls "next queue" (or "next row") retrieval. Also, if you look at the getResponse() function in query_lookup.html, you will see how the chan.setTimeout() method has been deployed to provide an erstwhile "blocking" socket Read with the ability to surrender the event-thread for things like processing the Abort button and ticking over the clock. (all of this, and much more, "infrastructure-code" is already there and doesn't have to be re-invented) 3) Predictive text on the Queue Name field so that all matching VMS queues are retrieved on-demand as the user types. As is now common-place with many websites, a drop down select list of matching options is automatically retrieved from the server and made available for the user to select from. 4) Result-set drill-down. Many database queries return a result-set of rows for the user to scan through and possibly drill-down into for more detail. I've provided a reasonably generic example of this, where all matching Job Entries have been populated into a dynamic HTML select list. Once again the user was able to see the select-list grow, the scroll-bar diminish, and "Jobs Found" field tick over in real-time, whilst continually being empowered (by the Abort button) to curtail the results at any time! If you click on an entry in the Select List then the changes and the entry_details.html page appears. See the parent.entry_details.getReady() call in queue_lookup.html to see how the handover to the new frame takes place. (Also see goBack() in entry_details.html to see how simply that operation is reversed.) The user is now free to move forward, back, first, last, refresh, and delete queue entries, or return to the previous frame. (Thanks to the deployment of the VMS Persona functionality, the user is only permitted to see those queue entries that the Username they signed in under is permitted to see. They can also *only* delete those entries that this username is allowed to delete.) 5) Floating
s. You'll see that any queue names are highlighted in bold and italics; if you mouseover any of these fields when they are not blank then the current status information for that queue will be retrieved from the server and displayed in a quasi-popup DIV. 6) Local Result-Set Sort. If you click on the "header" or "first" row in the Select List of queues, you will get a popup prompting you for a sort key. If you select one, the contents of the Select List are sorted in the chosen order. (Try enter "*" for the Queue Name and then clicking "Get Job Info" to get some data worth sorting) "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.tzympfb0hv4qyg@murphus.linden... > On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:46:24 -0700, Richard Maher > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > >> Aye. > > > > Then if you get a chance could you please try accessing the demo Queue > > Lookup application and let me know how far it gets before barfing? For > > ol' > > times' sake :-) I was happy to rely on the arrogance of market share > > between IE and Firefox, but now with Safari working, I'm curious to see > > how > > far the portability goes. > > Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look > > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > > news:op.tzyej70rhv4qyg@murphus.linden... > >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Maher > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Tom, > >> > > >> >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 > >> days. > >> > > >> > Well, just stop turning up :-) > >> > > >> >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the > >> >> Theresienwiese > >> > > >> > I lived in Neuhausen, around the back from the Augustiner keller, and > >> > then > >> > on Dietlinden Strasse just at the top of the Englishergarten/Sea Haus > > and > >> > was quite happy with the regular civilized beer gardens and never too > >> > keen > >> > on booking a table or pushing through the masses (no pun intended :-) > >> > especially those Kiwis/Aussies who continually let the side down and > >> > used to > >> > brag about drinking 10litres in a session! I naturally assumed you'd > >> > simply > >> > drown after 10 litres and it was an idle boast, until I managed to > >> drink > >> > seven in 7 hours (and the first 3 without going to the loo!) - I had > >> no > >> > trouble sleeping :-) > >> > > >> > I even bought one of those silly hats and wore it for about 30 secs on > >> > the > >> > rollercoaster :-( > >> > > >> > What was this year's recurring song? (I recall we had the Macarana one > >> > year > >> > (and "living next door to Alice" for some reason?)) > >> > > >> > Cheers Richard Maher > >> > > >> > PS. Was it you who used Opera? > >> > >> Aye. > >> > >> > > >> > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > >> > news:op.tzxva4xahv4qyg@murphus... > >> >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:06:07 -0700, Michael Unger > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> [...] > >> >> >> > >> >> >> p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) > >> >> > > >> >> > They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK 16 > >> >> days > >> >> > each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I > > haven't > >> >> > been there ... > >> >> > > >> >> > Michael > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the > >> >> Theresienwiese > >> >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 > >> days. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> PL/I for OpenVMS > >> >> www.kednos.com > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> PL/I for OpenVMS > >> www.kednos.com > > > > > > > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMS > www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:06:02 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 04:59:12 -0700, Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Tom, > >> Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look > > Thanks for that, and here you go: - > > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html > > In order to be able to use this Queue Manager example successfully you > will > need:- > > 1) Javascript enabled > 2) Java Applets enabled > 3) Can't be behind a Firewall that forbids all unknown outgoing > connections > (otherwise open-up 5255) > 4) Must be running SUN's JRE 1.4.2_13 or later (1.6 is advised) > http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp I have all the above and got the following on both Opera and IE7 didn't try Firefox, it always messes up Outlook and I have to go through some rigamaroll to get it to work again. ERROR 500 - The server has encountered an unexpected condition. > If you're using Mac OS X then you must be running Apple's J2SE 1.5 or > later, > and you must also be a bit of a self-starter, a bit tech-savy, and be > able > to spot a HOLD button when you see one; L-Platers are advised to focus > elsewhere. If you'd prefer to lay on your back with your wee flippers > flailing madly in the air, while whining "Boo-Hoo it doesn't work" then > COV > is definitely the place for you, but if like Graham and Craig you're > able to > distinguish your arse from your elbow when it comes to Mac OS X then > you're > in for a rewarding experience. > 5) Must be running Internet Explorer (6 or later) or Firefox (Haven't > tested > other browsers) Safari also works > > If need be, turn on the Java Console (Settings/Controle pannel/Java > Plug-in/Console on) and, if using Firefox, the Error Console. (You just > gotta love FireBug!!!) > > All things being equal you should then be prompted (via Java modal > dialogue > box) for:- > > Username: TIER3_DEMO > Password: QUEUE > > If things are still going well, enter an asterix "*" for the Queue Name > and > you will see the List-of-values appear with all the available queues on > the > Deathrow cluster. Now click on the "Get Job Info" button and we're away! > > If not the Java Console should give you a message. > > If you're slightly curious as to exactly how easily this full-function, > high-quality, high-performance GUI has gained access to the VMS servers > that > we all know and love, then all the source code is available at > http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/ (Can also help to track down any > problems) > > If you'd like to use this application on an ongoing basis from your > normal > Inmate Username/Password then please contact me and I will see if it's > possible. > > Cheers Richard Maher > > Here's some of the functionality-catwalk highlights from the example: - > > 1) Full, one-time, context-specific, VMS User Authentication. No Cookies, > Session IDs, Password Caching or generic Work-Station or Browser > credentials! When you load the demo_client_web.html page into your > browser, > a Java Applet is automatically activated that prompts the user for their > VMS > Username and Password via a modal dialogue box. If authorization fails, > the > "Access Denied" page will be displayed and VMS Intrusion Detection (in > accordance with the policy set out by your System Manager) will be > enforced, > and Login-Failures is incremented in SYSUAF. Alternatively, if > authorization > is successful (and you left the "Display Logon Confirmation" box ticked) > then a Welcome dialog box will be displayed detailing last login times > and > the number of unsuccessful login attempts (if any). Login-Failures is now > set to zero and last non-interactive login time is set to the current > time. > > If you refresh this page, or move to a different page, then the server > connection is broken and you must be re-authorised before continuing to > access the Demo Queue Manager application. > > 2) A Hot-Abort button! After you have pressed the "Get Job Info" button > you'll notice that the "Abort Request" button becomes active and turns > red. > (Actually you probably won't notice 'cos this query completes too quickly > :-) You can edit the DEMO_UARS.COB code and change the value of the > DEBUG_DELAY field if you want to see your 3GL Interrupt routine in > action.) > In this case the cancel-flag I've set in the AST routine is picked up in > the > mainline code, resulting in the graceful termination of the loop that > controls "next queue" (or "next row") retrieval. > > Also, if you look at the getResponse() function in query_lookup.html, you > will see how the chan.setTimeout() method has been deployed to provide an > erstwhile "blocking" socket Read with the ability to surrender the > event-thread for things like processing the Abort button and ticking over > the clock. (all of this, and much more, "infrastructure-code" is already > there and doesn't have to be re-invented) > > 3) Predictive text on the Queue Name field so that all matching VMS > queues > are retrieved on-demand as the user types. As is now common-place with > many > websites, a drop down select list of matching options is automatically > retrieved from the server and made available for the user to select from. > > 4) Result-set drill-down. Many database queries return a result-set of > rows > for the user to scan through and possibly drill-down into for more > detail. > I've provided a reasonably generic example of this, where all matching > Job > Entries have been populated into a dynamic HTML select list. Once again > the > user was able to see the select-list grow, the scroll-bar diminish, and > "Jobs Found" field tick over in real-time, whilst continually being > empowered (by the Abort button) to curtail the results at any time! > > If you click on an entry in the Select List then the changes and > the > entry_details.html page appears. See the parent.entry_details.getReady() > call in queue_lookup.html to see how the handover to the new frame takes > place. (Also see goBack() in entry_details.html to see how simply that > operation is reversed.) > > The user is now free to move forward, back, first, last, refresh, and > delete > queue entries, or return to the previous frame. (Thanks to the > deployment of > the VMS Persona functionality, the user is only permitted to see those > queue > entries that the Username they signed in under is permitted to see. They > can > also *only* delete those entries that this username is allowed to > delete.) > > 5) Floating
s. You'll see that any queue names are highlighted in > bold > and italics; if you mouseover any of these fields when they are not blank > then the current status information for that queue will be retrieved from > the server and displayed in a quasi-popup DIV. > > 6) Local Result-Set Sort. If you click on the "header" or "first" row in > the > Select List of queues, you will get a popup prompting you for a sort > key. If > you select one, the contents of the Select List are sorted in the chosen > order. (Try enter "*" for the Queue Name and then clicking "Get Job > Info" to > get some data worth sorting) > > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.tzympfb0hv4qyg@murphus.linden... >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:46:24 -0700, Richard Maher >> wrote: >> >> > Hi Tom, >> > >> >> Aye. >> > >> > Then if you get a chance could you please try accessing the demo Queue >> > Lookup application and let me know how far it gets before barfing? For >> > ol' >> > times' sake :-) I was happy to rely on the arrogance of market share >> > between IE and Firefox, but now with Safari working, I'm curious to >> see >> > how >> > far the portability goes. >> >> Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look >> >> > >> > Cheers Richard Maher >> > >> > "Tom Linden" wrote in message >> > news:op.tzyej70rhv4qyg@murphus.linden... >> >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:11:42 -0700, Richard Maher >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Hi Tom, >> >> > >> >> >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 >> >> days. >> >> > >> >> > Well, just stop turning up :-) >> >> > >> >> >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the >> >> >> Theresienwiese >> >> > >> >> > I lived in Neuhausen, around the back from the Augustiner keller, >> and >> >> > then >> >> > on Dietlinden Strasse just at the top of the Englishergarten/Sea >> Haus >> > and >> >> > was quite happy with the regular civilized beer gardens and never >> too >> >> > keen >> >> > on booking a table or pushing through the masses (no pun intended >> :-) >> >> > especially those Kiwis/Aussies who continually let the side down >> and >> >> > used to >> >> > brag about drinking 10litres in a session! I naturally assumed >> you'd >> >> > simply >> >> > drown after 10 litres and it was an idle boast, until I managed to >> >> drink >> >> > seven in 7 hours (and the first 3 without going to the loo!) - I >> had >> >> no >> >> > trouble sleeping :-) >> >> > >> >> > I even bought one of those silly hats and wore it for about 30 secs > on >> >> > the >> >> > rollercoaster :-( >> >> > >> >> > What was this year's recurring song? (I recall we had the Macarana > one >> >> > year >> >> > (and "living next door to Alice" for some reason?)) >> >> > >> >> > Cheers Richard Maher >> >> > >> >> > PS. Was it you who used Opera? >> >> >> >> Aye. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > "Tom Linden" wrote in message >> >> > news:op.tzxva4xahv4qyg@murphus... >> >> >> On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:06:07 -0700, Michael Unger >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> [...] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? >> :-) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK > 16 >> >> >> days >> >> >> > each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I >> > haven't >> >> >> > been there ... >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Michael >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the >> >> >> Theresienwiese >> >> >> and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 >> >> days. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> PL/I for OpenVMS >> >> >> www.kednos.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> PL/I for OpenVMS >> >> www.kednos.com >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMS >> www.kednos.com > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:19:46 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: We'll always have Munich (was: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days) Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > Richard Maher wrote: >>> Give me the link again, please, and I will have a look >> >> Thanks for that, and here you go: - >> >> http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_web.html >> >> In order to be able to use this Queue Manager example successfully yo= u >> will need:- ... > I have all the above and got the following on both Opera and IE7 > didn't try Firefox, it always messes up Outlook and I have to go > through some rigamaroll to get it to work again. > > ERROR 500 - The server has encountered an unexpected condition. I have Opera 9.23 on WinXP, and Java 1.5.0-12. I get the login and the queue select window, but see the following JavaScript errors (I trust your german being good enough to be able to read the german part of the error messages): CSS - attachment:/31/attachment31.htm Inlined stylesheet Declaration syntax error Line 6: border-top:#000000 1px solid; 1px solid; border-right:#000000 -----------------------------------------^ JavaScript - http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/common.js Das verlinkte Skript wurde nicht geladen. JavaScript - http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/queue_lookup.html Event thread: keyup Error: name: TypeError message: Statement on line 216: Type mismatch (usually a non-object valu= e used where an object is required) Backtrace: Line 216 of inline#1 script in http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/= queue_lookup.html if (msgQue.rTrim() =3D=3D "") Line 1 of script return queLookup(); At unknown location [statement source code not available] JavaScript - http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/queue_lookup.html Event thread: click Error: name: ReferenceError message: Statement on line 277: Reference to undefined variable: zeros Backtrace: Line 277 of inline#1 script in http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/= queue_lookup.html if (msgEntry.length > zeros && parseInt(msgEntry, 10) =3D=3D zeros)= Line 1 of script jobLookup(); At unknown location [statement source code not available] HTH, Martin P.S.: The JavaScript error window is non-standard. -- = One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://vms.pdv-systeme.de/users/martin= v/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:46:09 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Message-ID: <6Y2Pi.11158$TF.4020@newsfe13.lga> "Informational cascade" and "reputational cascade". http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html We like to think that people improve their judgment by putting their minds together, and sometimes they do. The studio audience at “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire” usually votes for the right answer. But suppose, instead of the audience members voting silently in unison, they voted out loud one after another. And suppose the first person gets it wrong. If the second person isn’t sure of the answer, he’s liable to go along with the first person’s guess. By then, even if the third person suspects another answer is right, she’s more liable to go along just because she assumes the first two together know more than she does. Thus begins an “infor- mational cascade” as one person after another assumes that the rest can’t all be wrong. ==== Meanwhile, there still wasn’t good evidence to warrant recommending a low-fat diet for all Americans, as the National Academy of Sciences noted in a report shortly after the U.S.D.A. guidelines were issued. But the report’s authors were promptly excoriated on Capitol Hill and in the news media for denying a danger that had already been pro- claimed by the American Heart Association, the McGovern committee and the U.S.D.A. The scientists, despite their impressive credentials, were accused of bias because some of them had done research fi- nanced by the food industry. And so the informational cascade morphed into what the economist Timur Kuran calls a reputational cascade, in which it becomes a career risk for dissidents to question the popular wisdom. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:29:17 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Message-ID: <1192022957.286147.21280@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Oct 10, 7:46 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > "Informational cascade" and "reputational cascade". > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html > > We like to think that people improve their judgment by > putting their minds together, and sometimes they do. The > studio audience at "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" usually > votes for the right answer. But suppose, instead of the > audience members voting silently in unison, they voted out > loud one after another. And suppose the first person gets > it wrong. > > If the second person isn't sure of the answer, he's liable > to go along with the first person's guess. By then, even if > the third person suspects another answer is right, she's > more liable to go along just because she assumes the first > two together know more than she does. Thus begins an "infor- > mational cascade" as one person after another assumes that > the rest can't all be wrong. > ==== > Meanwhile, there still wasn't good evidence to warrant > recommending a low-fat diet for all Americans, as the > National Academy of Sciences noted in a report shortly after > the U.S.D.A. guidelines were issued. But the report's > authors were promptly excoriated on Capitol Hill and in the > news media for denying a danger that had already been pro- > claimed by the American Heart Association, the McGovern > committee and the U.S.D.A. > > The scientists, despite their impressive credentials, were > accused of bias because some of them had done research fi- > nanced by the food industry. And so the informational cascade > morphed into what the economist Timur Kuran calls a reputational > cascade, in which it becomes a career risk for dissidents to > question the popular wisdom. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > [...] I read this article yesterday and was very disappointed that it didn't mention saturated fats or trans fats, which are now considered to be the bad fats while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated are considered to be the good fats. The role of exercise was also not mentioned. And there are other possible explanations. As for the French paradox, maybe they have a gene that protects them from high fat intake, e.g. And it would be nice to know what the cholesterol C-reactive (or whatever that one is called) levels of the French are. Another point not mentioned is that the "blunt-hammer" low-fat diet recommended by the gov't was done that way in order to avoid confusing people about good vs. bad fats. They figured that if people reduced all fats, then bad fats would be reduced. (I remember this from a Consumer Reports article, I think. If not the, it was probably The New York Times.) AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! I'm looking forward to what responding letter writers have to say. In the end, the right answer will emerge. Hopefully it won't be too late. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 08:38:49 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Message-ID: In article <6Y2Pi.11158$TF.4020@newsfe13.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > > "Informational cascade" and "reputational cascade". Please take this discussion to an _appropriate_ newsgroup. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 2007 13:39:08 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Message-ID: <5n42vsFg6c3uU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1192022957.286147.21280@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Oct 10, 7:46 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> "Informational cascade" and "reputational cascade". >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html >> >> We like to think that people improve their judgment by >> putting their minds together, and sometimes they do. The >> studio audience at "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" usually >> votes for the right answer. But suppose, instead of the >> audience members voting silently in unison, they voted out >> loud one after another. And suppose the first person gets >> it wrong. >> >> If the second person isn't sure of the answer, he's liable >> to go along with the first person's guess. By then, even if >> the third person suspects another answer is right, she's >> more liable to go along just because she assumes the first >> two together know more than she does. Thus begins an "infor- >> mational cascade" as one person after another assumes that >> the rest can't all be wrong. >> ==== >> Meanwhile, there still wasn't good evidence to warrant >> recommending a low-fat diet for all Americans, as the >> National Academy of Sciences noted in a report shortly after >> the U.S.D.A. guidelines were issued. But the report's >> authors were promptly excoriated on Capitol Hill and in the >> news media for denying a danger that had already been pro- >> claimed by the American Heart Association, the McGovern >> committee and the U.S.D.A. >> >> The scientists, despite their impressive credentials, were >> accused of bias because some of them had done research fi- >> nanced by the food industry. And so the informational cascade >> morphed into what the economist Timur Kuran calls a reputational >> cascade, in which it becomes a career risk for dissidents to >> question the popular wisdom. >> >> -- >> Ron Johnson, Jr. >> Jefferson LA USA >> > [...] > > I read this article yesterday and was very disappointed that it didn't > mention saturated fats or trans fats, which are now considered to be > the bad fats while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated are considered > to be the good fats. The role of exercise was also not mentioned. And > there are other possible explanations. As for the French paradox, > maybe they have a gene that protects them from high fat intake, e.g. > And it would be nice to know what the cholesterol C-reactive (or > whatever that one is called) levels of the French are. > > Another point not mentioned is that the "blunt-hammer" low-fat diet > recommended by the gov't was done that way in order to avoid confusing > people about good vs. bad fats. They figured that if people reduced > all fats, then bad fats would be reduced. (I remember this from a > Consumer Reports article, I think. If not the, it was probably The New > York Times.) > > AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! > > I'm looking forward to what responding letter writers have to say. > > In the end, the right answer will emerge. Hopefully it won't be too > late. I think you may have missed one of the important points which (at least to me) was that scientists frequently jump on the bandwagon of bad science because bucking the herd is professional suicide. Kind of like the IT world and the OO paradigm. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:12:00 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Why Global Climate Change might not be anthropogenic Message-ID: <1192025520.523867.280200@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Oct 10, 9:39 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1192022957.286147.21...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > > > > On Oct 10, 7:46 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> "Informational cascade" and "reputational cascade". > > >>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html > > >> We like to think that people improve their judgment by > >> putting their minds together, and sometimes they do. The > >> studio audience at "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" usually > >> votes for the right answer. But suppose, instead of the > >> audience members voting silently in unison, they voted out > >> loud one after another. And suppose the first person gets > >> it wrong. > > >> If the second person isn't sure of the answer, he's liable > >> to go along with the first person's guess. By then, even if > >> the third person suspects another answer is right, she's > >> more liable to go along just because she assumes the first > >> two together know more than she does. Thus begins an "infor- > >> mational cascade" as one person after another assumes that > >> the rest can't all be wrong. > >> ==== > >> Meanwhile, there still wasn't good evidence to warrant > >> recommending a low-fat diet for all Americans, as the > >> National Academy of Sciences noted in a report shortly after > >> the U.S.D.A. guidelines were issued. But the report's > >> authors were promptly excoriated on Capitol Hill and in the > >> news media for denying a danger that had already been pro- > >> claimed by the American Heart Association, the McGovern > >> committee and the U.S.D.A. > > >> The scientists, despite their impressive credentials, were > >> accused of bias because some of them had done research fi- > >> nanced by the food industry. And so the informational cascade > >> morphed into what the economist Timur Kuran calls a reputational > >> cascade, in which it becomes a career risk for dissidents to > >> question the popular wisdom. > > >> -- > >> Ron Johnson, Jr. > >> Jefferson LA USA > > > [...] > > > I read this article yesterday and was very disappointed that it didn't > > mention saturated fats or trans fats, which are now considered to be > > the bad fats while monounsaturated and polyunsaturated are considered > > to be the good fats. The role of exercise was also not mentioned. And > > there are other possible explanations. As for the French paradox, > > maybe they have a gene that protects them from high fat intake, e.g. > > And it would be nice to know what the cholesterol C-reactive (or > > whatever that one is called) levels of the French are. > > > Another point not mentioned is that the "blunt-hammer" low-fat diet > > recommended by the gov't was done that way in order to avoid confusing > > people about good vs. bad fats. They figured that if people reduced > > all fats, then bad fats would be reduced. (I remember this from a > > Consumer Reports article, I think. If not the, it was probably The New > > York Times.) > > > AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! > > > I'm looking forward to what responding letter writers have to say. > > > In the end, the right answer will emerge. Hopefully it won't be too > > late. > > I think you may have missed one of the important points which (at > least to me) was that scientists frequently jump on the bandwagon > of bad science because bucking the herd is professional suicide. Frequently .NE. Always > Kind of like the IT world and the OO paradigm. :-) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:20:12 +0200 From: Helmut Michels Subject: [ANN] Data Plotting Library DISLIN 9.2 Message-ID: Dear VMS users, I am pleased to announce version 9.2 of the data plotting software DISLIN. DISLIN is a high-level and easy to use plotting library for displaying data as curves, bar graphs, pie charts, 3D-colour plots, surfaces, contours and maps. Several output formats are supported such as X11, VGA, PostScript, PDF, CGM, WMF, HPGL, TIFF, GIF, PNG, BMP and SVG. The software is available for the most C, Fortran 77 and Fortran 90/95 compilers. Plotting extensions for the interpreting languages Perl, Python and Java are also supported. DISLIN distributions and manuals in PDF, PostScript and HTML format are available from the DISLIN home page http://www.dislin.de and via FTP from the server ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/grafik/dislin All DISLIN distributions are free for non-commercial use. Licenses for commercial use are available from the site http://www.dislin.de. ------------------- Helmut Michels Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research Phone: +49 5556 979-334 Max-Planck-Str. 2 Fax : +49 5556 979-240 D-37191 Katlenburg-Lindau Mail : michels@mps.mpg.de ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.554 ************************