INFO-VAX Mon, 24 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 522 Contents: ba356 box Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: despair Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Re: MySQL failover on a OpenVMS Cluster Re: MySQL failover on a OpenVMS Cluster Re: MySQL failover on a OpenVMS Cluster Re: OPC on OpenVMS Re: Re-routing MX bounce mails UK Based Alpha Station For Sale. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 06:40:06 -0700 From: "rexdale1050@yahoo.ca" Subject: ba356 box Message-ID: <1190641206.828786.177440@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> i am running open vms 7 .3 on alphaserver ds 10 using ds -ba356-rc raid tower . can add an extra ds- ba356 to take over if original ds- ba356 fails? what hardware / software need thank you for you help neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 19:49:50 +1000 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13ff226qt0g0d16@corp.supernews.com> Steven M. Schweda wrote: >> [19:47:43] File "home.html" not found in directory listing. > > Why not? Wrong case or something? Confused by version numbers? that is the file that I am uploading to the Alpha > >> [19:47:44] MDTM 20070923092635 home.html >> [19:47:44] 502 MDTM is unimplemented. >> [19:47:44] SIZE home.html >> [19:47:44] 502 SIZE is unimplemented. >> [19:47:44] SIZE not supported. >> [19:47:44] Obtaining file information (size/date) from directory listing. >> [...] > > Why does it care about the date-time and/or size? Can you tell it > not to care? No idea why it cares, and I can't tell it not to care.... > Write your own FTP server? Complain to HP? You'd probably have more > luck finding out why SmartFTP wants these data, and how to get it to > stop caring. Or use (a suitably modified) wget or curl, or some other > program which works better. (What, exactly, are you trying to do, > anyway?) > Trying to upload several hundreds of images onto a WASD webserver - every week - from a WindowsXP PC which does the image processing on them. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 19:51:37 +1000 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13ff25acof43m52@corp.supernews.com> Jur van der Burg wrote: > I never had an issue with Filezilla. What fails with that program? Just downloaded the latest version - I can connect to the Alpha but FileZilla can't/won't display the directory listing when connected through a VPN. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:15:11 +1000 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13ffaigk3845u18@corp.supernews.com> Yes, I am using passive mode, it connects fine but won't display the directory contents - a quick google search suggests client/router problems, but SmartFTP works fine so I am suspicious about that being the issue. Been to the FileZilla site and others are having some issues with VMS - but I think that almost noone is using VMS and the FileZilla support may be a little slow for my favourite OS. Jur van der Burg wrote: > I'm using it over a VPN every day, that should not be an issue > (unless you use active ftp mode, you MUST use passive mode in > that case). Nowadays passive mode is pretty much the standard. > > Jur. > > Gremlin wrote: >> Jur van der Burg wrote: >>> I never had an issue with Filezilla. What fails with that program? >> >> >> >> Just downloaded the latest version - I can connect to the Alpha but >> FileZilla can't/won't display the directory listing when connected >> through a VPN. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 2007 07:16:01 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <0vq$d+cZA6qq@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <13ff25acof43m52@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin writes: > Jur van der Burg wrote: >> I never had an issue with Filezilla. What fails with that program? > > > > Just downloaded the latest version - I can connect to the Alpha but > FileZilla can't/won't display the directory listing when connected > through a VPN. Just a wild guess -- did you make sure to select passive mode? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:31:55 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: In article <46f75028$0$227$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: >I never had an issue with Filezilla. What fails with that program? > >Jur. > >Gremlin wrote: >> Hi all >> >> Using OpenVMS 8.2 with HP TCP/IP v5.5 ECO 1. I am using the SmartFTP >> client to get files to/from the box (FileZilla doesn't want to work) and >> SmartFTP works OK except every file transferred incurs a lot ov >> overhead throiugh directory re-listings. A short log file listing follows: >> >> Using SmartFTP v2.5.1006 to transfer html files to an OpenVMS server, I >> get the following set of actions showing in the log: >> [19:47:43] TYPE A >> [19:47:43] 200 TYPE set to ASCII. >> [19:47:43] PASV >> [19:47:43] 227 Entering Passive Mode (x,y,z,200,238,55) >> [19:47:43] Opening data connection to x.y.z.200 Port: 60983 >> [19:47:43] LIST >> [19:47:43] 150 Opening data connection for HT_ROOT:[000000]*.*;* >> (x.y.z.55,2377) >> [19:47:43] 20803 bytes transferred. (86.8 KB/s) (234 ms) >> [19:47:43] 226 LIST Directory transfer complete. >> [19:47:43] File "home.html" not found in directory listing. >> [19:47:43] TYPE I >> [19:47:43] 200 TYPE set to IMAGE. >> [19:47:43] PASV >> [19:47:43] 227 Entering Passive Mode (x,y,z,200,238,56) >> [19:47:43] Opening data connection to x.y.z.200 Port: 60984 >> [19:47:43] STOR home.html >> [19:47:43] 150 Opening data connection for HT_ROOT:[000000]home.html; >> (x.y.z.55,2378) >> [19:47:44] 14448 bytes transferred. (129 KB/s) (109 ms) >> [19:47:44] 226 Transfer complete. >> [19:47:44] MDTM 20070923092635 home.html >> [19:47:44] 502 MDTM is unimplemented. >> [19:47:44] SIZE home.html >> [19:47:44] 502 SIZE is unimplemented. >> [19:47:44] SIZE not supported. >> [19:47:44] Obtaining file information (size/date) from directory listing. >> [19:47:44] Ignoring LIST options. >> [19:47:44] TYPE A >> [19:47:44] 200 TYPE set to ASCII. >> [19:47:44] PASV >> [19:47:44] 227 Entering Passive Mode (x,y,z,200,238,57) >> [19:47:44] Opening data connection to x.y.z.200 Port: 60985 >> [19:47:44] LIST >> [19:47:44] 150 Opening data connection for HT_ROOT:[000000]*.*;* >> (x.y.z.55,2379) >> [19:47:44] 20905 bytes transferred. (86.8 KB/s) (235 ms) >> [19:47:44] 226 LIST Directory transfer complete. >> [19:47:44] File "home.html" not found in directory listing. >> [19:47:44] Ignoring LIST options. >> [19:47:44] PASV >> [19:47:44] 227 Entering Passive Mode (x,y,z,200,238,59) >> [19:47:44] Opening data connection to x.y.z.200 Port: 60987 >> [19:47:44] LIST >> [19:47:44] 150 Opening data connection for HT_ROOT:[000000]*.*;* >> (x.y.z.55,2380) >> [19:47:44] 20905 bytes transferred. (93.2 KB/s) (219 ms) >> [19:47:44] 226 LIST Directory transfer complete. >> [19:47:44] Transfer successful. >> >> SmartFTP *helpfully* say the problem is that OpenVMS doesn't support the >> FTP SIZE or MDTM commands, so everythign has to be relisted after each >> file. Agonising when transfering hundreds of them. >> Not that surprising they aren't supported - they seem to be standardised in RFC 3659 which has a date of March 2007 on it see http://rfc.net/rfc3659.html Though it does suggest that some servers have been using SIZE and MDTM as non-standard extensions for sometime. It looks like it would be good for VMS to support this RFC since it might help alleviate problems with listings in the future as more clients adopt this. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >> Anyone have some suggestions about how I can implement SIZE and/or MDTM >> in the FTP stack? The TCP/IP installation and management documentation >> doesn't give me any hints. >> >> Cheers ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 2007 14:35:42 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <46f7cb3e$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <13ffaigk3845u18@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin writes: >Yes, I am using passive mode, it connects fine but won't display the >directory contents - a quick google search suggests client/router >problems, but SmartFTP works fine so I am suspicious about that being >the issue. Is this an ODS2 disk? If it is an ODS5 disk, do you see files with names in all lowercase? Check maybe for FTP Server logicals (like the following excerpt): $! df TCPIP$$FTP_CLIENT_MAX_QIO_BLOCKS ? $! df TCPIP$$FTP_SERVER_MAX_QIO_BLOCKS ? $! df TCPIP$FTPD_ALLOW_ADDR_REDIRECT ? $! df TCPIP$FTPD_ALLOW_PORT_REDIRECT ? $! df TCPIP$FTPD_COMPAT_REV ? $! df TCPIP$FTPD_DIR_CR_DISABLED ? ! >= V5.6 $! df TCPIP$FTPD_DIR_RECURSIVE ? $! df TCPIP$FTPD_IDLETIMEOUT "0 00:15:00" $! df TCPIP$FTPD_KEEPALIVE TRUE $! df TCPIP$FTPD_LOG_CLIENT_ACTIVITY TRUE ! <= V5.5 $! df TCPIP$FTPD_MULTILINE_DISABLED ? $! df TCPIP$FTPD_NO_FILESIZE_HINT ? $! df TCPIP$FTPD_SYLOGIN ? ! >= V5.6 $! df TCPIP$FTPD_SYLOGOUT ? ! >= V5.6 if one of them could help you... But, I think also that the problem/behavious is in the client and have to be changed there (like M$IE always uses LIST instead of NLST and tries then to interpret VMS file/path names as U**X names and fails) -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 2007 07:42:06 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: In article <13feidli0uurp56@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin writes: > > Anyone have some suggestions about how I can implement SIZE and/or MDTM > in the FTP stack? The TCP/IP installation and management documentation > doesn't give me any hints. You have to write or port an FTP client that has them. This is typically more complex than it sounds because real life makes files more complex than "ASCII" vs. "BINARY". For a VMS client I'd at least support ASCII, BINARY, and STRU VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:07:45 -0400 From: "Richard Whalen" Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: "Gremlin" wrote in message news:13feidli0uurp56@corp.supernews.com... > Hi all > > Using OpenVMS 8.2 with HP TCP/IP v5.5 ECO 1. I am using the SmartFTP > client to get files to/from the box (FileZilla doesn't want to work) and > SmartFTP works OK except every file transferred incurs a lot ov overhead > throiugh directory re-listings. A short log file listing follows: > : > [19:47:44] MDTM 20070923092635 home.html > [19:47:44] 502 MDTM is unimplemented. : > > SmartFTP *helpfully* say the problem is that OpenVMS doesn't support the > FTP SIZE or MDTM commands, so everythign has to be relisted after each > file. Agonising when transfering hundreds of them. > > Anyone have some suggestions about how I can implement SIZE and/or MDTM in > the FTP stack? The TCP/IP installation and management documentation > doesn't give me any hints. > > Cheers You could argue with SmartFTP that they don't properly implement the MDTM command. RFC 3659 says that the format of the command is mdtm = "MdTm" SP pathname CRLF They appear to have implemented the non-standard (but not uncommon) mdtm = "MdTm" SP [time SP] pathname CRLF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:18:07 +1000 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13ffe8hkrabpkd2@corp.supernews.com> Hi Peter ODS-2 disk, no TCPIP$FTP* logicals defined....the IP manual doesn't seem to indicate that any of these logicals are related to the issue.... Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > In article <13ffaigk3845u18@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin writes: >> Yes, I am using passive mode, it connects fine but won't display the >> directory contents - a quick google search suggests client/router >> problems, but SmartFTP works fine so I am suspicious about that being >> the issue. > > Is this an ODS2 disk? > If it is an ODS5 disk, do you see files with names in all lowercase? > > Check maybe for FTP Server logicals (like the following excerpt): > > $! df TCPIP$$FTP_CLIENT_MAX_QIO_BLOCKS ? > $! df TCPIP$$FTP_SERVER_MAX_QIO_BLOCKS ? > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_ALLOW_ADDR_REDIRECT ? > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_ALLOW_PORT_REDIRECT ? > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_COMPAT_REV ? > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_DIR_CR_DISABLED ? ! >= V5.6 > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_DIR_RECURSIVE ? > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_IDLETIMEOUT "0 00:15:00" > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_KEEPALIVE TRUE > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_LOG_CLIENT_ACTIVITY TRUE ! <= V5.5 > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_MULTILINE_DISABLED ? > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_NO_FILESIZE_HINT ? > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_SYLOGIN ? ! >= V5.6 > $! df TCPIP$FTPD_SYLOGOUT ? ! >= V5.6 > > if one of them could help you... > > But, I think also that the problem/behavious is in the client and have > to be changed there (like M$IE always uses LIST instead of NLST and > tries then to interpret VMS file/path names as U**X names and fails ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:22:33 +1000 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13ffegr735pll6b@corp.supernews.com> Hi Richard Actually, over the last two years or so I have had many "robust" discussions with them - but their final position is always a combination of "HP isn't implementing the stack correctly" and "VMS - who cares?" There answer to this issue is the former and they won't entertain any further discussion about it.... Richard Whalen wrote: > "Gremlin" wrote in message > news:13feidli0uurp56@corp.supernews.com... >> Hi all >> >> Using OpenVMS 8.2 with HP TCP/IP v5.5 ECO 1. I am using the SmartFTP >> client to get files to/from the box (FileZilla doesn't want to work) and >> SmartFTP works OK except every file transferred incurs a lot ov overhead >> throiugh directory re-listings. A short log file listing follows: >> > : >> [19:47:44] MDTM 20070923092635 home.html >> [19:47:44] 502 MDTM is unimplemented. > : >> SmartFTP *helpfully* say the problem is that OpenVMS doesn't support the >> FTP SIZE or MDTM commands, so everythign has to be relisted after each >> file. Agonising when transfering hundreds of them. >> >> Anyone have some suggestions about how I can implement SIZE and/or MDTM in >> the FTP stack? The TCP/IP installation and management documentation >> doesn't give me any hints. >> >> Cheers > > You could argue with SmartFTP that they don't properly implement the MDTM > command. > RFC 3659 says that the format of the command is > mdtm = "MdTm" SP pathname CRLF > They appear to have implemented the non-standard (but not uncommon) > mdtm = "MdTm" SP [time SP] pathname CRLF > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:18:27 +1000 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13ffe9590g5fqe0@corp.supernews.com> Yep, passive mode.... briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article <13ff25acof43m52@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin writes: >> Jur van der Burg wrote: >>> I never had an issue with Filezilla. What fails with that program? >> >> >> Just downloaded the latest version - I can connect to the Alpha but >> FileZilla can't/won't display the directory listing when connected >> through a VPN. > > Just a wild guess -- did you make sure to select passive mode? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:20:02 +1000 From: Gremlin Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13ffec3j5hdpd14@corp.supernews.com> Hi Bob Fat and lazy here - not really keen to write another FTP client when so many exist - but so few support (correctly) VMS. and the last time I wrote anything, it was VAX Basic and Macro - C might just be too much of a shock for me! Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <13feidli0uurp56@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin writes: >> Anyone have some suggestions about how I can implement SIZE and/or MDTM >> in the FTP stack? The TCP/IP installation and management documentation >> doesn't give me any hints. > > You have to write or port an FTP client that has them. This is > typically more complex than it sounds because real life makes > files more complex than "ASCII" vs. "BINARY". For a VMS client > I'd at least support ASCII, BINARY, and STRU VMS. > ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 2007 08:34:44 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > http://rfc.net/rfc3659.html ... > It looks like it would be good for VMS to support this RFC since it might help > alleviate problems with listings in the future as more clients adopt this. Multinet already does. EISNER.DECUS.ORG>quote size login.com <760 EISNER.DECUS.ORG>quote mdtm login.com <20060214151329 EISNER.DECUS.ORG>quote syst Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <13fffifep1al84e@corp.supernews.com> Hi David Although the log display shows ht_root:[000000], the interface display shows /ht_root:/000000, so I guess that workaround may not be the solution. If I can get FileZilla to work across a VPN, I would be happy(ish) - even though the drag and drop mechanism from XP to VMS doesn't automagically create directories as it should! briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > > > For the original poster, an much easier solution may be to change > default directory to /htroot instead of HT_ROOT:[000000] > > That should trigger Unix emulation mode and that should suppress the > trailing version numbers that are confusing SmartFTP. That'll > suppress at least one of the two directory listings that the client > is requesting and may suppress the resulting screen refresh. > ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 2007 09:28:44 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: In article <13fffifep1al84e@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin writes: > Hi David > > Although the log display shows ht_root:[000000], the interface display > shows /ht_root:/000000, so I guess that workaround may not be the solution. If the client is seeing "HT_ROOT:[000000]" at all, that means that the server is NOT in Unix emulation mode. The client is just doing a halfway job of faking it. The way you convince the server to go into Unix emulation mode is to have the client do a "cd /some/directory/using/slashes" The way you convince the client to do this is to either change the "starting directory" in your client-side profile or to manually change directories by typing in the target directory name (point-and-click typically won't do the job when the client is playing tricksy games). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:28:58 +0200 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: Can't use SIZE and MDTM commands in OpenVMS FTP server Message-ID: <46f7c9b5$0$230$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> In filezilla there's a 'settings->debug' entry where you can enable verbose logging. That may give a clue. See this example. Jur. Status: Resolving IP-Address for saab.xxx Trace: ControlSocket.cpp(948): CRealControlSocket::ContinueConnect(02FB1A10) m_pEngine=00A8C370 caller=03044540 Status: Connecting to 192.168.5.23:21... Status: Connection established, waiting for welcome message... Trace: CFtpControlSocket::OnReceive() Trace: CFtpControlSocket::OnReceive() Response: 220 saab.xxx FTP Server (Version 5.6) Ready. Command: USER jur Trace: CFtpControlSocket::OnReceive() Response: 331 Username jur requires a Password Command: PASS ********** Trace: CFtpControlSocket::OnReceive() Response: 230 User logged in. Status: Connected Trace: CFtpControlSocket::ResetOperation(0) Trace: CControlSocket::ResetOperation(0) Status: Retrieving directory listing... Trace: CFtpControlSocket::SendNextCommand(0) Command: PWD Trace: CFtpControlSocket::OnReceive() Response: 257 "USER:[JUR]" is current directory. Trace: CFtpControlSocket::ResetOperation(0) Trace: CControlSocket::ResetOperation(0) Trace: CFtpControlSocket::SendNextCommand(0) Trace: CFtpControlSocket::ListSend(0) Trace: state = 1 Trace: CFtpControlSocket::ResetOperation(0) Trace: CControlSocket::ResetOperation(0) Status: Directory listing successful Gremlin wrote: > Yep, passive mode.... > > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: >> In article <13ff25acof43m52@corp.supernews.com>, Gremlin >> writes: >>> Jur van der Burg wrote: >>>> I never had an issue with Filezilla. What fails with that program? >>> >>> >>> Just downloaded the latest version - I can connect to the Alpha but >>> FileZilla can't/won't display the directory listing when connected >>> through a VPN. >> >> Just a wild guess -- did you make sure to select passive mode? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:29:13 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > > Well, a descriptor is just a way to tell whatever operator in a foreign > function to limit how far it can write. The calling program, no matter > what language it is written in, has no way to prevent the called > subroutine to misbehave and write beyond the end of the character array. > > And decriptors lack the ability to store both the size-allocated, and > size-currently-used. This would have been very neat to have when you > call some subroutine which would then update the "size-currently-used" > field with the size of the string that was written to that buffer. As it > stands, you need to supply a different argument so the subroutine can > pass back that value. (or in the case of $QIO, look at the io status > block once the operation has completed). This is not quite true, PL/I as I know it keeps max and current string size in a descriptor. STRINGSIZE "ON" conditions can be enabled to monitor string operations, at a performance penalty, which is why we usually disabled it in production code. This and the fact that strings and arrays are passed via their descriptor's address and hence can be manipulated either by accident or deliberately makes the concept less bullet proof as one would think. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:35:43 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: AEF schrieb: > > I forgot to mention that I have some familiarity with C. I actually > worked a good part of the way through "Programming in [ANSI] C" by > Kochan in the mid-90's. So can you please give an example of a > descriptor and its use in C? To my knowledge their's no such thing in C. An equivalent functionality to PL/I descriptors would be to keep strings (and arrays) in structures like: struct mystring { char *pcStr; int ncMaxLength, ncCurLength; }; pass this structure by address to functions and define all string operations on it. Tom may find it clumsy, but you would have to do it only once and for all times. It would be half way to C++, BTW. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 2007 07:09:55 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: In article <1190606612.172124.98240@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, "David P. Murphy" writes: > On Sep 23, 10:25 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: >> JF Mezei wrote: > >>> And decriptors lack the ability to store both the size-allocated, and >>> size-currently-used. This would have been very neat to have when you >>> call some subroutine which would then update the "size-currently-used" >>> field with the size of the string that was written to that buffer. As it >>> stands, you need to supply a different argument so the subroutine can >>> pass back that value. (or in the case of $QIO, look at the io status >>> block once the operation has completed). > >> ISTR that there are many types of descriptor > > There are indeed many "descriptor" structures. > >> and one is for dynamic strings. It provides the starting address, >> the maximum length, and the current length. > > Not quite. The "dynamic" and "varying" string descriptors both > had the same initial structure as the "static": > > short length > char type > char class > pointer data > > The difference is that "data" does not point to the > first byte of text; it points to the address of a short > which contains the number-of-bytes-currently-valid . . . > the first byte of text immediately follows that short. > It would have been much more convenient to have that > count as a separate member of the structure. Dynamic strings do not have this extra word. Just like fixed length strings, they have an address-of-the-string and a length-of-the-string. Any additional housekeeping information for use by the dynamic string library is carefully undocumented. A quick test shows that a "bytes-in-use" field is buried in the longword prior to the start of the string data. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 05:34:01 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <1190637241.106683.136760@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Sep 23, 10:37 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Sep 23, 8:59 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > >>In article <1190592151.788617.205...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > >> AEF writes: > > >>>On Sep 23, 5:10 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > >>>>In article , > >>>> "Tom Linden" writes: > > >>>>>On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:35:17 -0700, Bill Gunshannon > >>>>>wrote: > > >>>>>>In article , > >>>>>> "Tom Linden" writes: > > >>>>>>>Penny-wise, pound-foolish? The development and maintenance of C code is > >>>>>>>more costly. So pay now or pay later. > > >>>>>>Sorry, no basis in fact for that. Might actually be cheaper as the pool > >>>>>>of available C Programmers is considerably higher than say the pool of > >>>>>>available Fortran, COBOL or (gasp) PL/I programmers. And if the shop has > >>>>>>reasonable coding standards, maintenance does not have to be a nightmare. > >>>>>>(I know, having worked in large shops where turnover every 1-3 years is > >>>>>>prett close to 100%.) > > >>>>>>bill > > >>>>>No, I do have a basis for that (1) 41 years of experience > > >>>>More than me, but not by much if you count the times I wandered into > >>>>the IT field for short periods of time before I took it on full-time. > > >>>>> and (2) if you > >>>>>compare > >>>>>PL/I and C programs for equivalent functionality, you will find that the C > >>>>>version > >>>>>will have 2 to 3 times as many source language statements. > > >>>>And that means? Somehow, I don't think number of statements is a strong > >>>>basis for deciding the economy of a an Information System. If it were, > >>>>there would be a lot more stuff written in BASIC. :-) And loaded with > >>>>GOTO's. > > >>>>And let's not forget that PL/I compilers are rarer than PL/I programmers > >>>>which kind of limits it's usefulness beyond some very small niches. > > >>>Weren't you the one who said bad code comes solely from bad > >>>programmers and that the language makes zero difference? Did I miss > >>>something? > > >>What does that have to do with the fact that PL/I compilers are rarer > >>than PL/I programmers? Or the number of statements it takes to write > >>a program in any given language? > > >>bill > > >>-- > >>Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > >>b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > >>University of Scranton | > >>Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > > > Sorry, I was referring mostly to your excessive GO TO's complaint > > w.r.t. BASIC. (I should have snipped the succeeding paragraph.) I > > thought that you implied that BASIC tends to give you bad code because > > of all the GO TO's, in contradiction to your claim about bad code > > coming solely from programmers. And can you write good code using MS- > > DOS? > > > It seems to me that always blaming the programmer regardless of what > > language he is stuck with is like blaming a rescue worker for failing > > a rescue regardless of what equipment he has to work with (say a > > fireman armed with a single fire extinguisher vs. a fire truck with > > working hydrant). > > > As to appropriateness of different languages for different purposes > > (as mentioned by another poster), in physics from 1983 through 1991 I > > used FORTRAN to write programs to analyze data (as did most physicists > > at the time -- I don't know what they use now!). Would another > > language been as good or better? Of course there's code for analyzing > > experimental data, and other code for performing theoretical > > calculations. > > I supsect that physicists are still using Fortran. It is a language > designed for number crunching. You can do the same thing in Macro, or > C, or PL/I but Fortran is very well suited to this sort of thing. There > is a minimum of programming esoterica to learn. Scientific types tend > to write programs that would make your skin crawl but they get the job > done somehow! Yeah, well, we didn't take many computer-sci courses. I've only later come to realize some of what we're missing! But at least we know not to access multi-dimensional arrays in the wrong order and probably a few other things like that. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 2007 14:16:04 GMT From: Bruce Bowler Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:14:22 -0400, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Fortran was the second high level language (COBOL was first) and dates Fortran's genesis was 1954-1957 (I've seen references to both) and COBOL's was 1959. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:34:47 -0000 From: "David P. Murphy" Subject: Re: despair Message-ID: <1190651687.577879.295040@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Sep 24, 8:39 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > Most of my friends were carrying around > > "Waterloo FORTRAN with WATFOR and WATFIV" > > I looked, but can't find the authors. I still have my copy (from 1978) at home. I'll pull it up later. ok dpm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:56:02 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Message-ID: <1190634962.365404.126370@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Sep 23, 8:15 pm, "Scott" wrote: > no... he was having trouble with the 4 mm tape drive which he clearly states in > his Ebay listing. > if you are going to be so hypercritical, perhaps you should have your facts > right. Tape drive or CD-ROM drive isn't really important. I'll readily admit that my recollection of such details isn't the greatest, and I didn't bother going back to look at that sequence of messages. I also can't recall whether the eBay listing made any mention of the tape drive issues when it was first posted. There is certainly a possibility that he went back and changed the listing afterwards, but, again, I can't be sure if that's the case. My point, though, was that he was here making noise about how VMS wouldn't recognize the drive. I was not alone in interpreting his comments at the time as being derogatory towards VMS' capabilities with respect to identifiying a simple SCSI device. In that string of messages I had asked the question about whether his system (which he mentioned he had bought inexpensively on eBay) was qualified as a VMS platform. He never answered. Now we find out that it's not a qualified platform and had we known that earlier it would have been a lot easier to dismiss the issue. While VMS can and does run on Alpha and Integrity boxes for which it hasn't been qualified there's at least some expectation that on a non- qualified platform some things may just not work. In those instances, it's not necessarily a case where VMS doesn't recognize the drive, or doesn't support the drive -- which are all comments that Paul made at the time. The system isn't supposed to be running VMS at all, so of course you might find hardware that doesn't behave as it would on a fully supported platform. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 05:10:25 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Message-ID: <1190635825.827798.305580@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> Just for completeness, I'm going to post the responses that Paul had sent to my personal e-mail address a couple of days ago. I posted a message during one of Paul's prior rants here on C.O.V. about his "baffle them with bullshit" approach to try and dismiss an argument. This one's a perfect example. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Raulerson Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 5:13 PM To: 'FrankS' Subject: RE: Little Alpha I learned on is up... No- it is the machine I said the 4mm tape was not supported in, and a few people around here got on their high horse. I remember it did not matter what I said, I was the evil mainframe person beating up on the poor little VMS people. Sheesh... FYI: I put out the bucks for a brand new supported HP Itanium machine and such based on the fact that this little machine could do a whole lot more than I ever expected it to. Get that - *** because of what this little machine could do ***. As for the few people here whose feathers are ruffled because I was able (with help from lots of other people here and at HP) to learn enough quickly enough to be able to qualify this platform to be able to do the same kind of tasks a more mainstream platform can do. If those people would spend less time griping about how poorly they are supported and how terrible things are, and get down and build products for the platform, the platform would become a lot more mainstream and a lot better supported and a lot of other things too. People like Hoff, and Hein, and Kerry, and Robert and -- well dozens of other people are doing just exactly that. And I really appreciate their work, time, and dedication. People who get upset over "my attitude" just need to find something else to worry about. I was kind of hoping someone might want the little guy, because I am fond of him and don't really want to consign him to being powered off in the garage with the ancient Mac512 and MacSE's and such. There just *might* be more people out there like me, willing to pour time and treasure into the platform if they knew more about it, and wanting a "cheap" machine to pick it up. Now given that, let me give *you* back a little attitude, perhaps you can find the answers for yourself. Oh, I';ll be nice ---- there *are* answers, and good ones for the most part. Why did HP decide to get rid of the Alpha machines and go with the Itanium machines? How important is OpenVMS to HP's internal IT? Why does VMS have so many rough edges? (Hint: Do do much of anything sophisticated you usually wind up calling routines that have "$"s in them. More so than is normal in most other world class mainframe/ midrange class platforms.) Why is the GUI offered for the console (decWindows) 10 or more years out of date? Why do the machines still depend primarily on SCSI or IDS disks? Is this why the user community is so adamant about shadowing volumes (RAID0) in the OS? Why do they even believe that the OS is the right place to do that? Same people are adamant about RAID-5 being in hardware. MMM... Why is there no cheap equivalent of PSF or AFP printing? How come there are no third party solutions for this? Why are the compilers basically excellent on the platform and yet not supporting simple things like transactions? (Yes, you can call system services for transaction support, but why isn't it built into the language?) What kind of hardware service and support is available to customers who buy HP hardware? How does it compare against IBM? Why have there been so few user contributed software selections for VMS over the past decade? Compared at least to the DECUS stuff, most of which is quite old. How does this compare to the CBT tape? How likely are useful but now totally unsupported products to survive the next two OS releases? If I get into a situation where I need high powered consulting help from HP or the community, who can I go to, and what kind of cost will this present to my customer? Can customers get information about their systems (not the custom software) from a variety of sources? How compatible is the HP COBOL compiler to IBM COBOL on z/OS and i5OS? Is there an equivalent to LE? Is an equivalent to LE needed? .... .... .... I could go on for a very long time like that. The point being that a goodly number of those questions I was able to answer using the little Alpha. EVEN THOUGH THE 4mm TAPE IS NOT SUPPORTED ON THE CORRECTLY CONFIGURED MACHINE THAT EVERYTHING ELSE WORKS ON. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Raulerson Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 5:17 PM To: 'FrankS' Subject: RE: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Oh yeah - and an important one I left out - has the hobbyist license program helped or hurt the OS? The answer is that it has *probably* hurt it more than helped it. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 05:14:53 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Message-ID: <1190636093.232794.120720@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Raulerson > > EVEN THOUGH THE 4mm TAPE IS NOT > SUPPORTED ON THE CORRECTLY CONFIGURED MACHINE THAT EVERYTHING ELSE > WORKS ON. This last comment (above) that Paul makes in his e-mail to me is, umm, interesting. How can a machine running OpenVMS, which was never qualified to run OpenVMS, be considered a "CORRECTLY CONFIGURED MACHINE"? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:59:28 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W4594518212_17695_1190645968 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, since you insist on making it public, you sir, ar acting like a per= fect idiot. You have some agenda inside your mind that I, and perhaps a l= ot of other people do not share. You appear to have no idea of the busine= ss or technical or logistical considerations of moving software to a new = platform. But none of that matters of course, because I have no idea what I am talk= ing about nor how a really complex software system is engineered nor am I= am able to competently evaluate a hardware/software sysetm. People just = pay me for no reason. Right... -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W4594518212_17695_1190645968 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment From: "FrankS" To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Message-ID: <1190635825.827798.305580@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:10:00 +0000 Received: (qmail 594 invoked by uid 78); 24 Sep 2007 12:11:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ns-mr21.netsolmail.com) (205.178.146.50) by 0 with SMTP; 24 Sep 2007 12:11:16 -0000 Received: from MVB.SAIC.COM (mvb.saic.com [198.151.12.104]) by ns-mr21.netsolmail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l8OCBDvF014117 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:11:15 -0400 X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 121 X-Trace: posting.google.com 1190635826 31236 127.0.0.1 (24 Sep 2007 12:10:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:10:26 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <1190634962.365404.126370@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: 50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=71.190.201.57; posting-account=ps2QrAMAAAA6_jCuRt2JEIpn5Otqf_w0 X-Gateway-Source-Info: USENET Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for completeness, I'm going to post the responses that Paul had sent to my personal e-mail address a couple of days ago. I posted a message during one of Paul's prior rants here on C.O.V. about his "baffle them with bullshit" approach to try and dismiss an argument. This one's a perfect example. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Raulerson Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 5:13 PM To: 'FrankS' Subject: RE: Little Alpha I learned on is up... No- it is the machine I said the 4mm tape was not supported in, and a few people around here got on their high horse. I remember it did not matter what I said, I was the evil mainframe person beating up on the poor little VMS people. Sheesh... FYI: I put out the bucks for a brand new supported HP Itanium machine and such based on the fact that this little machine could do a whole lot more than I ever expected it to. Get that - *** because of what this little machine could do ***. As for the few people here whose feathers are ruffled because I was able (with help from lots of other people here and at HP) to learn enough quickly enough to be able to qualify this platform to be able to do the same kind of tasks a more mainstream platform can do. If those people would spend less time griping about how poorly they are supported and how terrible things are, and get down and build products for the platform, the platform would become a lot more mainstream and a lot better supported and a lot of other things too. People like Hoff, and Hein, and Kerry, and Robert and -- well dozens of other people are doing just exactly that. And I really appreciate their work, time, and dedication. People who get upset over "my attitude" just need to find something else to worry about. I was kind of hoping someone might want the little guy, because I am fond of him and don't really want to consign him to being powered off in the garage with the ancient Mac512 and MacSE's and such. There just *might* be more people out there like me, willing to pour time and treasure into the platform if they knew more about it, and wanting a "cheap" machine to pick it up. Now given that, let me give *you* back a little attitude, perhaps you can find the answers for yourself. Oh, I';ll be nice ---- there *are* answers, and good ones for the most part. Why did HP decide to get rid of the Alpha machines and go with the Itanium machines? How important is OpenVMS to HP's internal IT? Why does VMS have so many rough edges? (Hint: Do do much of anything sophisticated you usually wind up calling routines that have "$"s in them. More so than is normal in most other world class mainframe/ midrange class platforms.) Why is the GUI offered for the console (decWindows) 10 or more years out of date? Why do the machines still depend primarily on SCSI or IDS disks? Is this why the user community is so adamant about shadowing volumes (RAID0) in the OS? Why do they even believe that the OS is the right place to do that? Same people are adamant about RAID-5 being in hardware. MMM... Why is there no cheap equivalent of PSF or AFP printing? How come there are no third party solutions for this? Why are the compilers basically excellent on the platform and yet not supporting simple things like transactions? (Yes, you can call system services for transaction support, but why isn't it built into the language?) What kind of hardware service and support is available to customers who buy HP hardware? How does it compare against IBM? Why have there been so few user contributed software selections for VMS over the past decade? Compared at least to the DECUS stuff, most of which is quite old. How does this compare to the CBT tape? How likely are useful but now totally unsupported products to survive the next two OS releases? If I get into a situation where I need high powered consulting help from HP or the community, who can I go to, and what kind of cost will this present to my customer? Can customers get information about their systems (not the custom software) from a variety of sources? How compatible is the HP COBOL compiler to IBM COBOL on z/OS and i5OS? Is there an equivalent to LE? Is an equivalent to LE needed? ... ... ... I could go on for a very long time like that. The point being that a goodly number of those questions I was able to answer using the little Alpha. EVEN THOUGH THE 4mm TAPE IS NOT SUPPORTED ON THE CORRECTLY CONFIGURED MACHINE THAT EVERYTHING ELSE WORKS ON. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Raulerson Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 5:17 PM To: 'FrankS' Subject: RE: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Oh yeah - and an important one I left out - has the hobbyist license program helped or hurt the OS? The answer is that it has *probably* hurt it more than helped it. -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W4594518212_17695_1190645968-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:13:43 -0700 From: FrankS Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Message-ID: <1190646823.448957.4180@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 24, 10:59 am, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > You appear to have no idea of the business or technical or logistical > considerations of moving software to a new platform. Quite the contrary, but you wouldn't know anything about my background. In fact, I've been the lead (well, sole, really) developer for a few large and small projects that involved porting applications from IBM and Unisys systems to OpenVMS. One thing I know for certain is that if you have software running on OperatingSystem I and want to port it to OperatingSystem V then you don't go out and buy a development system on which OperatingSystem V was never supported. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:01:32 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W4604425209_28549_1190646092 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > be considered a correctly configured machine Gee - that's a tough one. How about >> BECAUSE IT WORKS? << ----=_vm_0011_W4604425209_28549_1190646092 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment From: "FrankS" To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Message-ID: <1190636093.232794.120720@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:14:00 +0000 Received: (qmail 20428 invoked by uid 78); 24 Sep 2007 12:26:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ns-mr9.netsolmail.com) (10.49.16.168) by 0 with SMTP; 24 Sep 2007 12:26:06 -0000 Received: from MVB.SAIC.COM (mvb.saic.com [198.151.12.104]) by ns-mr9.netsolmail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l8OCQ5KZ000517 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:26:06 -0400 X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 X-Trace: posting.google.com 1190636093 31989 127.0.0.1 (24 Sep 2007 12:14:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:14:53 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <1190635825.827798.305580@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=71.190.201.57; posting-account=ps2QrAMAAAA6_jCuRt2JEIpn5Otqf_w0 X-Gateway-Source-Info: USENET Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Raulerson > > EVEN THOUGH THE 4mm TAPE IS NOT > SUPPORTED ON THE CORRECTLY CONFIGURED MACHINE THAT EVERYTHING ELSE > WORKS ON. This last comment (above) that Paul makes in his e-mail to me is, umm, interesting. How can a machine running OpenVMS, which was never qualified to run OpenVMS, be considered a "CORRECTLY CONFIGURED MACHINE"? ----=_vm_0011_W4604425209_28549_1190646092-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 19:15:39 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Little Alpha I learned on is up... Message-ID: In article <1190646823.448957.4180@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, FrankS wrote: > On Sep 24, 10:59 am, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > You appear to have no idea of the business or technical or logistical > > considerations of moving software to a new platform. > > Quite the contrary, but you wouldn't know anything about my > background. In fact, I've been the lead (well, sole, really) > developer for a few large and small projects that involved porting > applications from IBM and Unisys systems to OpenVMS. > > One thing I know for certain is that if you have software running on > OperatingSystem I and want to port it to OperatingSystem V then you > don't go out and buy a development system on which OperatingSystem V > was never supported. Oh FFS. Paul bought a budget machine to minimize his financial risk, and what he could do with that system was enough to persuade him to invest further. I salute him for that. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:00:04 +0200 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Message-ID: <46f7526c$0$238$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> $ DUMP/ID=3Dxxx DSA0: gets you there much faster.... Jur. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Albrecht Schlosser writes: >> >> Martin Vorlaender wrote: >> >>> Albrecht Schlosser wrote: >>>> Volker Halle wrote: >>>>> You can use the File-ID field in the F11B$S >>>>> resource name to find out about the filename involved. >>>> I can't see anything obvious :-( Can you tell me how to >>>> find the file-ID ? >>> $ MCR DFU SEARCH /FID=3D >> Thanks for this, but this is not my problem. >> >> The question is, how to find the _file-ID_ from the lock >> info. >=20 > ??? The file-ID is part of the file serialization lock name. >=20 > Here's a little tutorial to help you find the file ID from the LOCK or > the RESOURCE block and how to trace it back to the file name itself. I= > don't know if this is what you are asking or not; however, it doesn't > hurt to know how to derive this stuff regardless. >=20 >=20 > Here is an example: >=20 > From the SDA session... >=20 > Resource Database > ----------------- > RSB: FFFFFFFF.3E686580 GGMODE: NL Status: VALID > Parent RSB: FFFFFFFF.7FF94D80 CGMODE: NL > Sub-RSB count: 0 FGMODE: NL > Lock Count: 1 RQSEQNM: 0000 > BLKAST count: 0 CSID: 00000000 (AXPBOX) >=20 > 4D57 s $ B 1 1 F > ___/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ > Resource: 4D577324 42313146 F11B$sWM Valblk: 00000001 000000= 01 > (rvn) (nmx) > _/_/ > Length 10 00000000 00000000 ........ 00000000 000000= 00 > =20 > Kernel mode 00000000 00000000 ........ > System 00000000 00000000 ........ Seqnum: 00000148 >=20 >=20 > You can use the SDA syntax:=20 >=20 > SDA> SHOW LOCK/NAME=3D("F11B$s",004D57,0) > SDA> SHOW RESOURCE/NAME=3D("F11B$s",004D57,0) >=20 > to fine any particular File Serialization LOCK or RESOUCE. >=20 >=20 > You can translate these values into a file ID using: (4D57,0,(nmx)(rvn)= ) > The file ID numbers are shown in decimal if you issue DIRECTORY/FILE so= > change the values to decimal: >=20 > SDA> EVALUATE 4D57 > Hex =3D 00000000.00004D57 Decimal =3D 19799 WRK_S_RESUL= T+00D57 >=20 > The file ID associated with this file is (19799,?,0) >=20 > The file serialization lock is a sublock of the Volume Allocation Lock.= > You can find this with: >=20 > SDA> SHOW RESOURCE/ADDRESS=3DFFFFFFFF7FF94D80 (taken from the parent R= SB > field of the above) >=20 > Resource Database > ----------------- > RSB: FFFFFFFF.7FF94D80 GGMODE: CR Status: DIRENTR VALID > Parent RSB: 00000000.00000000 CGMODE: CR > Sub-RSB count: 965 FGMODE: CR > Lock Count: 1 RQSEQNM: 0029 > BLKAST count: 1 CSID: 00000000 (AXPBOX) >=20 > Resource: 704F7624 42313146 F11B$vOp Valblk: 00456FE6 240C00= 15 > Length 18 50584153 4D566E65 enVMSAXP 051D0E27 000171= A1 > Kernel mode 00000000 00003776 v7...... > System 00000000 00000000 ........ Seqnum: 0006F63F >=20 > F11B$vOpenVMSAXPv7 (F11B$v is the prefix for the Volume Serialization = Lock > and the volume name is: OpenVMSAXPv7) >=20 > Now you know on which volume (ie. OpenVMSAXPv7) the file resides. =20 >=20 > $ SHOW LOGICAL "DISK$OpenVMSAXPv7" > "DISK$OpenVMSAXPv7" =3D "DSA0:" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) > $ SHOW DEVICE DSA0: >=20 > Device Device Error Volume Free Trans = Mnt > Name Status Count Label Blocks Count = Cnt > DSA0: Mounted 0 OpenVMSAXPv7 4550630 896 = 1 > $1$DKC100: (AXPBOX) ShadowSetMember 0 (member of DSA0:) > $1$DKD100: (AXPBOX) ShadowSetMember 0 (member of DSA0:) >=20 >=20 > If you need to find the file associated with the lock ID, you need to l= ook > at the INDEXF.SYS file of the volume. >=20 > Dump the second block of the volume's INDEXF.SYS... >=20 > $ DUMP/BLOCK=3D(START=3D2,COUNT=3D1) DSA0:[000000]INDEXF.SYS >=20 > Dump of file DSA0:[000000]INDEXF.SYS;1 on 23-SEP-2007 14:27:37.64 > File ID (1,1,0) End of file block 94625 / Allocated 512330 >=20 > Virtual block number 2 (00000002), 512 (0200) bytes >=20 > 00230201 011728F1 0000040A 00000001 ........=F1(....#. 000000 > ^^^^-- cluster size > 0007D01E 010F5833 008D006A 005A0002 ..Z.j...3X...=D0.. 000010 > 00010004 00000000 00000000 0009007E ~............... 000020 > ^^^^--bitmap size > ED7C566C 537DFE00 FA000000 00000000 .......=FA.=FE}SlV|=ED 000030 > ... >=20 > You will need the two values which are denoted. Using this equation, f= ind > the offset in the INDEXF.SYS file to the MFD header (000000.DIR) which = is > file ID (0,0,0). 4*(cluster size)+(bitmap size) >=20 > In this example, that is:=20 >=20 > $ Y=3D4*%x23+%x7E > $ SHOW SYMBOL Y > Y =3D 266 Hex =3D 0000010A Octal =3D 00000000412 >=20 > You can now find your file using this value and the file ID you obtaine= d > from SDA: >=20 > $ Y=3D19799+266 (add the offset to your file ID) > $ SHOW SYMBOL Y > Y =3D 20065 Hex =3D 00004E61 Octal =3D 00000047141 >=20 > $ DUMP/FILE_HEADER/BLOCK=3D(START=3D20065,COUNT=3D1) DSA0:[000000]INDEX= F.SYS >=20 > Dump of file DSA0:[000000]INDEXF.SYS;1 on 23-SEP-2007 14:35:41.75 > File ID (1,1,0) End of file block 94625 / Allocated 512330 >=20 > Virtual block number 20065 (00004E61), 512 (0200) bytes >=20 > Header area > Identification area offset: 40 > Map area offset: 100 > Access control area offset: 233 > Reserved area offset: 255 > Extension segment number: 0 > Structure level and version: 2, 1 > File identification: (19799,147,0) <-- full file I= D > Extension file identification: (0,0,0) > VAX-11 RMS attributes > Record type: Variable > File organization: Sequential > Record attributes: Implied carriage control > Record size: 136 > Highest block: 35 > End of file block: 21 > End of file byte: 214 > Bucket size: 0 > Fixed control area size: 0 > Maximum record size: 255 > Default extension size: 0 > Global buffer count: 0 > Directory version limit: 0 > File characteristics: > Caching attribute: Writethrough > Map area words in use: 3 > Access mode: 0 > File owner UIC: [SYSMGTGRP,SYSTEM] > File protection: S:RE, O:RWED, G:RE, W: > Back link file identification: (6927,66,0) > Journal control flags: > Active recovery units: None > File entry linkcount: 0 > Highest block written: 21 > Client attributes: None >=20 > Identification area > File name: LOGIN.COM;1 > Revision number: 4 > Creation date: 9-MAR-2007 17:14:04.53 > Revision date: 5-SEP-2007 14:11:19.24 > Expiration date: > Backup date: >=20 > Map area > Retrieval pointers > Count: 35 LBN: 11190935 >=20 >=20 > $ DIRECTORY/FILE_ID SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM >=20 > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] >=20 > LOGIN.COM;1 (19799,147,0) >=20 > Total of 1 file. >=20 >=20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:02:24 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Message-ID: <4PMJi.1072$GW.324@newsfe12.lga> In article <46f7526c$0$238$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: > > >$ DUMP/ID=3Dxxx DSA0: gets you there much faster.... Do you recall which OpenVMS version first added /IDENTIFIER to DUMP? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:17:03 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Message-ID: In article <4PMJi.1072$GW.324@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > >In article <46f7526c$0$238$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: >> >> >>$ DUMP/ID=3Dxxx DSA0: gets you there much faster.... > >Do you recall which OpenVMS version first added /IDENTIFIER to DUMP? I checked my V5 "gray wall" doc set and the /IDENTIFIER qualifier is not there. However, I installed a V6.1 OpenVMS distribution into my CD drive and looks at its HELPLIB.HLP and DUMP has the /IDENTIFIER. So, I would guess this came about in V6.0 or V6.1. Nice to know I don't need to dump hex blocks of INDEXF.SYS any longer. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:58:51 +0200 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Message-ID: <46f7a685$0$237$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> Well, it was added June 6, 1989. V5.5-2 already has it. Jur. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <46f7526c$0$238$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: >> >> $ DUMP/ID=3Dxxx DSA0: gets you there much faster.... > > Do you recall which OpenVMS version first added /IDENTIFIER to DUMP? > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:48:11 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <4PMJi.1072$GW.324@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > writes: > > > > > >In article <46f7526c$0$238$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg > ><"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: > >> > >> > >>$ DUMP/ID=3Dxxx DSA0: gets you there much faster.... > > > >Do you recall which OpenVMS version first added /IDENTIFIER to DUMP? > > I checked my V5 "gray wall" doc set and the /IDENTIFIER qualifier is > not there. However, I installed a V6.1 OpenVMS distribution into my > CD drive and looks at its HELPLIB.HLP and DUMP has the /IDENTIFIER. > So, I would guess this came about in V6.0 or V6.1. > > Nice to know I don't need to dump hex blocks of INDEXF.SYS any longer. Note that DUMP/ID doesn't default to the current SET DEFAULT device value, and you have to specify the device (with colon). -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:37:24 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Lock problem with SAMBA/NMBD Message-ID: In article <46f7a685$0$237$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: > > >Well, it was added June 6, 1989. V5.5-2 already has it. Oh well, one that escaped me. However, the little dissertation I provided to access it should served to help understand what the FID actually means and how the file system uses it to get at the meta data of the file. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:15:38 +0200 From: "Gorazd Kikelj" Subject: Re: MySQL failover on a OpenVMS Cluster Message-ID: "Ron Johnson" wrote in message news:JSZIi.283987$BX3.188852@newsfe13.lga... > On 09/21/07 18:55, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: >> I now have to support MySQL on a OpenVMS cluster and need to have some >> sort of way to switch it to another node in case the one it is running >> on fails. It appears you can't have a copy on each node using the same >> database files so I have thought of four possible ways. >> >> 1. Trigger some .COM file when a cluster transitions occurs that starts >> MySQL on the node the cluster alias goes to. > > That's what I'd do. Simple, sweet, uncomplicated. > You can use FailSafe IP and restart MySql, when ip address moves to another system. Utilize already implemented facilities. Also can use ENQUEUE/DEQUEUE from freeware to establish lock resource and when one instance is gone, another one can start automaticaly somewhere in the cluster. Best, Gorazd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:58:14 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: MySQL failover on a OpenVMS Cluster Message-ID: Gorazd Kikelj wrote: > "Ron Johnson" wrote... >> Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: >>> I now have to support MySQL on a OpenVMS cluster and need to have some >>> sort of way to switch it to another node in case the one it is running >>> on fails. It appears you can't have a copy on each node using the same >>> database files so I have thought of four possible ways. >>> >>> 1. Trigger some .COM file when a cluster transitions occurs that starts >>> MySQL on the node the cluster alias goes to. >> >> That's what I'd do. Simple, sweet, uncomplicated. > > You can use FailSafe IP and restart MySql, when ip address moves to another > system. Utilize already implemented facilities. > Also can use ENQUEUE/DEQUEUE from freeware to establish lock resource and > when one instance is gone, another one can start automaticaly somewhere in > the cluster. Thanks for the hint, Gorazd. For reference: AFAICT, he is refering to the LCK package on Freeware 8, http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware80/LCK/ . cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://vms.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:35:40 +0200 From: "Gorazd Kikelj" Subject: Re: MySQL failover on a OpenVMS Cluster Message-ID: "Martin Vorlaender" wrote in message news:op.ty5vrcordc3j58@notemv-tap.mv.privat... > Thanks for the hint, Gorazd. For reference: AFAICT, he is refering to the LCK > package on Freeware 8, http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware80/LCK/ . > Your wellcome. I use LCK extensivly for synchronizing multithreaded backup job that is spread accros multiple nodes and tapes in the cluster. It also need to synchronyze database shutdowns and startups (cold and hots), creating/deleting volume snapshots on EVAs (for "instant" backup. Time windows are getting smaller and smaller :-( and fast aproching 0). Also there are some per volume specific tasks, that need to be done before backup of volume start and after end.... So some form of Data Protector in DCL. And for all this LCK is invaluable. It would be quite a mess in programing and maintaining without it. Now I only have 3 lines of DCL code to do all synchronizing between nodes and between processes. :-) Best, Gorazd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:14:52 +0200 From: "Walter Kuhn" Subject: Re: OPC on OpenVMS Message-ID: <46f7b84f$0$22434$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at> Latest news: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/opc/index.html implements only the OPC Transport Layer in COM, the software does neither supply an OPC-client nor an OPC-server. Walter Kuhn "Walter Kuhn" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:46efc29f$0$22434$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at... > Hello Group, > > there is a field test (T1.0) of OPC for OpenVMS. > We have installed it and we have some questions with it: > > - does anyone of you use & has has experience with OPC on OpenVMS? > - is there a documentation? (the COM documentation contains no OPC) > - has anyone a (small) server-example-program for OpenVMS? > - has anyone a (small) client-example-program for OpenVMS? > > thank you & ragards > Walter Kuhn > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:44:09 +0200 From: Martin Vorlaender Subject: Re: Re-routing MX bounce mails Message-ID: <5lpinpF9aeasU1@mid.individual.net> Anyone? Martin Vorlaender wrote on 11-Sep-2007: > Hi! > > As the MX mailing list (and web site) seems to be defunct, I'll post > my question here: > > We operate an MX 5.4 system for multiple domains. For some we > do rewriting, for some we're acting as a secondary mail server > (and receive and hold the mails while the primary mail site is down, > to forward them when it's up again). > > With that constellation, we cannot decide whether to refuse mails > based on invalid users because we don't have lists of valid users > for the domains. > > This leads to *tons* of bounce messages when the primary sites refuse > to accept mails (mostly SPAM). > > I'd like to change MX' behavior ln the way > http://www.spamcop.net/fom-serve/cache/329.html > suggests, forwarding these messages for manual inspection (and eventually > throw them away) instead of generating bounces straight away. > Is that possible with MX? > > cu, > Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 02:29:26 -0700 From: Number8 Subject: UK Based Alpha Station For Sale. Message-ID: <1190626166.014374.43360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> I've got an Alpha Station 433au available in the UK if anyone is interested. I bought it off the last crew I was working for when I left them a few years ago. (My own interest in working for them mirrored their interest in OpenVMS at the time...). My career has gone off in another direction so I don't need it anymore. For the nostalgic crew out there, it's an Alphastation 433au with 3 x 4.3GB drives, seedy-rom, floppy, DDS3 DAT drive with original keyboard and (monster) 21" monitor. Everytime I have a 'what the hell happened to that' moment - such as Ireland in the rugby world cup at the moment - it reminds me of VMS. The organization I'm working with now doesn't even come close to the service uptime I used to be able to achieve with my old Alpha Cluster, which just generates a slow nod of the head. Anyways, what's done is done, and if anyone is interested in it, the url is http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320162038276&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=011 As they say, thanks for looking. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.522 ************************