INFO-VAX Fri, 07 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 487 Contents: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Re: DELTA debugger image fix for V7.3-2 Re: Hein has left the building? Re: Hein has left the building? Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Intel Launches Quad-Core "Tigerton" Re: Open source graphic drivers Re: Open source graphic drivers Re: Open source graphic drivers Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: VMS License Plates Re: X windows display extensions question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:14:27 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Backup Media [was Re: Volume Shadowing Availability] Message-ID: <8sXDi.39753$Pv4.13936@newsfe19.lga> On 09/06/07 11:29, JF Mezei wrote: > Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: >> 2. At least Blu-Ray has an very complex error correction built in and >> does verify after write automatically. > > Both BlueRay and HD-DVD are awaiting market decision on which will > survive. At this point in time, such media should be seen only as short > term backup solution (aka, your daily/weekly backups) but should not be > used for long term archival purposes, at least not until there is better > visibility on what will happen to this market. Go to your local porn store and see which it stocks: Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. That's the one which will win. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 23:10:16 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: cannot ssh login with expired password Message-ID: <20070906221016.GB30099@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 08:30:10PM -0700, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Sep 4, 9:12 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: > > In article <20070903112651.GA48...@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > > > > The fault lies in the current definition of the SSH protocol. > > I might be totally out to lunch here but I was led to believe that > SSH2 had these features, and that is why most client s/w first tried > to connect using SSH2 before falling back to plain old SSH. > > So your statement "The fault lies in the current definition of the SSH > protocol" is literally true. But we have got this expired password > thing working using the latest versions of TCPware along eith > Reflection-WRQ (now Attachmate) > many thanks to all who replied with clarifications. -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 15:44:03 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Message-ID: <5nHFQwL8hL5O@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <20070906153626.GA75027@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 05:49:31PM +0300, Guy Peleg wrote: >> >> "Anton Shterenlikht" wrote in message >> > >> > If you have a version of OpenVMS later than Version 7.2, >> > check its release notes to see if DEBUG64 and LINKER64 >> > functionality is already included. >> > >> > Has this been included for ages? Can I check this somehow? >> >> Starting with OpenVMS V7.3, the LINKER64 functionality has >> been integrated into the regular linker (LINK.EXE). > > Guy, thanks a lot > > Perhaps the above sentence can be included into the FORTRAN installation > manual to avoid confusion. I suppose it might if you mail it to OpenVMSDoc@hp.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 22:59:44 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: DEBUG64 and LINKER64 functionality on VMS 8.3 Message-ID: <20070906215944.GB96819@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 03:44:03PM -0500, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <20070906153626.GA75027@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > >> > >> Starting with OpenVMS V7.3, the LINKER64 functionality has > >> been integrated into the regular linker (LINK.EXE). > > > > Guy, thanks a lot > > > > Perhaps the above sentence can be included into the FORTRAN installation > > manual to avoid confusion. > > I suppose it might if you mail it to OpenVMSDoc@hp.com. I just did. -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:24:15 -0400 From: "Jilly" Subject: Re: DELTA debugger image fix for V7.3-2 Message-ID: <46e0456b$0$31167$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> wrote in message news:RXEDi.1919$pe7.1081@newsfe12.lga... > Does anyone have a copy of this? There was a problem with the image that > was distributed with V7.3-2. The patch is not on the ITRC site. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html I know that this was fixed in a V7.3-2 patch kit but dang if I can figure out which one. Load the latest UPDATE kit and see if that does it for you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:27:43 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: Hein has left the building? Message-ID: <1189110463.079198.294630@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 10:27 am, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi, > > Soooo? Does the user on another node get ss$_lvbnotvalid and look to > rollback the other guys transaction? 'The right things will happen'... we hope. It's been 15 years since I left OpenVMS (RMS) Engineering and I we had an other person focussing on Journalling (Tom S). Too much work to dig into all that without proper cause ( $$$ ). > Does the user on another node get ss$_lvbnotvalid No. >> What I can't see happening is RMS preventing other processes on other nodes (who had previously opened the file before the dodgy node died) from seeing the "partial" updates of the now dead process and *incorrectly* acting on their contents. If buckets with update records are writtine out, then those records are marked in the flag byte with RU_UPDATED/RU_DELETED. A new reader who managed to get to the record without a lock will trigger recovery as need be. Local/Remote matters not. >> Is it all crap and Hein did a runner ... And your score today is... Social skills... 0, Humor... Low, Annoyance... High, Technique... Somehwat intesting. ... much like other days. > PS. RIP big guy. La Scala was for you and VMS engineering; the only > difference is that you knew how to finish a performance! 71. Not that old. I put on an album of his today. I picked one with popular tunes: 'Mamma' (Vivere, Non ti scordar di me,..) > > PPS. So you know all this then Paul, do you? No need. Mushroom theory... keep 'm in the dark, feed then shit and good things come out! >> Or even Serializable, where if I've previously touched index nodes for (all records where key(2) Surname starting with "SM") does RMS lock out all other processes/streams from inserting/writing another "SMITH"? RMS does not do 'index' nodes. If there was no SMITH when a process in an RU read SMART, but SMITH did get inserted (commited) before the process issued a read next then it will not get SMUG, but best I know it will find Smith even though that did not exist before the transaction started. Try it?! Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 07:05:48 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Hein has left the building? Message-ID: Hi Hein, Thanks for the reply. > It's been 15 years since I left OpenVMS (RMS) Engineering and I we had > an other person focussing on Journalling (Tom S). Too much work to dig > into all that without proper cause ( $$$ ). Fair enough. (Wow, 15 years already!) > If buckets with update records are writtine out, then those records > are marked in the flag byte with RU_UPDATED/RU_DELETED. A new reader > who managed to get to the record without a lock will trigger recovery > as need be. Local/Remote matters not. Cool! I imagine that flag was being checked on every read already anyway so there's no additional o/head? (I'm still confused about what if ownership of the dead processes locks get split between numerous new processes. The first does the rollback, the others give up there newly aquired locks and wait for the rollback lock? Anyway 'The right things will happen' I'm convinced.) > And your score today is... > Social skills... 0, Humor... Low, Annoyance... High, Technique... > Somehwat intesting. > ... much like other days. Sure beats the usual religious bigotry, global warming, and scintillating political repartee? Oh well, maybe not. Hey, at least I'm consistent. > Try it?! I was only curious. I thinks it's amazing that a flat file system can do all this (and that it's bundled with Itanium?) But if this stuff is really important to people then I still think they should go the full-blown DBMS route. Cheers Richard Maher "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" wrote in message news:1189110463.079198.294630@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > On Sep 6, 10:27 am, "Richard Maher" > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Soooo? Does the user on another node get ss$_lvbnotvalid and look to > > rollback the other guys transaction? > > 'The right things will happen'... we hope. > > It's been 15 years since I left OpenVMS (RMS) Engineering and I we had > an other person focussing on Journalling (Tom S). Too much work to dig > into all that without proper cause ( $$$ ). > > > Does the user on another node get ss$_lvbnotvalid > > No. > > >> What I can't see happening is > RMS preventing other processes on other nodes (who had previously > opened the > file before the dodgy node died) from seeing the "partial" updates of > the > now dead process and *incorrectly* acting on their contents. > > If buckets with update records are writtine out, then those records > are marked in the flag byte with RU_UPDATED/RU_DELETED. A new reader > who managed to get to the record without a lock will trigger recovery > as need be. Local/Remote matters not. > > >> Is it all crap and Hein did a runner ... > > And your score today is... > Social skills... 0, Humor... Low, Annoyance... High, Technique... > Somehwat intesting. > ... much like other days. > > > > PS. RIP big guy. La Scala was for you and VMS engineering; the only > > difference is that you knew how to finish a performance! > > 71. Not that old. I put on an album of his today. > I picked one with popular tunes: 'Mamma' (Vivere, Non ti scordar di > me,..) > > > > > PPS. So you know all this then Paul, do you? > > No need. Mushroom theory... keep 'm in the dark, feed then shit and > good things come out! > > >> Or even Serializable, where if I've previously touched index > nodes for (all records where key(2) Surname starting with "SM") does > RMS > lock out all other processes/streams from inserting/writing another > "SMITH"? > > RMS does not do 'index' nodes. > If there was no SMITH when a process in an RU read SMART, but SMITH > did get inserted (commited) before the process issued a read next then > it will not get SMUG, but best I know it will find Smith even though > that did not exist before the transaction started. Try it?! > > Hein. > > ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 17:57:57 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <5katd5F2u9j4U1@mid.individual.net> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > A lot of science fiction ideas may well be feasible but the method by which > they are accomplished will in the majority of cases be far different from that > envisaged by the scifi author. We went to the moon but we didn't use a cannon > like Jules Verne (though in other respects Verne was fairly accurate). There are some who would disagree with your idea regarding wether or not we used a cannon. Have you ever seen the quote from Chuck Yeager about why he turned down the opportunity to be one of the first astronauts? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:21:29 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 11:00, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32966@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >> On 09/05/07 08:08, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>> In article <1188944683.389501.295990@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >>>> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >>>> Koehler) wrote: >>>>> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>>>> >>>>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>>>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>>>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the >>>>> changes. >>>> no He did not ... that was planned all along ... >>>> >>>> God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel >>>> and other prophecies and they are happening right >>>> now before your very eyes ... >>>> >>> If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then >>> everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. >> Not true. >> >> "Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. >> > No it doesn't. And I disagree. $ dict predetermined 3 definitions found From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]: Predetermine \Pre`de*ter"mine\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Predetermined}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Predermining}.] [Pref. pre- + determine: cf. F. pr['e]d['e]terminer.] 1. To determine (something) beforehand. --Sir M. Hale. [1913 Webster] 2. To doom by previous decree; to foredoom. [1913 Webster] From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: predetermined adj 1: set in advance; "a preset plan of action"; "at a predetermined time" [syn: {preset}, {predetermined}] > For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined > (and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) but that doesn't > imply that God or any other entity consciously created a plan of how the > Universe will unfold. The predetermination would come from the initial > conditions and laws of the Universe. > (For the purposes of this discussion i'm ignoring the complexities about > pre-determination introduced by our poor understanding of the meaning of > Quantum theory and treating the Universe as a classical system). I just totally disagree with that meaning of predetermined. For example: the end-result of computer simulations are not predetermined before the sim is run. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:51:49 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189108309.999101.46400@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 1:21 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/06/07 11:00, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > In article <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32...@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > >> On 09/05/07 08:08, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >>> In article <1188944683.389501.295...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > >>>> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > >>>> Koehler) wrote: > >>>>> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > > >>>>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for > >>>>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." > >>>>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the > >>>>> changes. > >>>> no He did not ... that was planned all along ... > > >>>> God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel > >>>> and other prophecies and they are happening right > >>>> now before your very eyes ... > > >>> If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then > >>> everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. > >> Not true. > > >> "Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. > > > No it doesn't. > > And I disagree. > > $ dict predetermined > 3 definitions found > > From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 > [gcide]: > > Predetermine \Pre`de*ter"mine\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. > {Predetermined}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Predermining}.] [Pref. pre- > + determine: cf. F. pr['e]d['e]terminer.] > 1. To determine (something) beforehand. --Sir M. Hale. > [1913 Webster] > > 2. To doom by previous decree; to foredoom. > [1913 Webster] > > From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: > > predetermined > adj 1: set in advance; "a preset plan of action"; "at a > predetermined time" [syn: {preset}, {predetermined}] > > > For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined > > (and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) but that doesn't > > imply that God or any other entity consciously created a plan of how the > > Universe will unfold. The predetermination would come from the initial > > conditions and laws of the Universe. > > (For the purposes of this discussion i'm ignoring the complexities about > > pre-determination introduced by our poor understanding of the meaning of > > Quantum theory and treating the Universe as a classical system). > > I just totally disagree with that meaning of predetermined. > > For example: the end-result of computer simulations are not > predetermined before the sim is run. > The conclusion of the sim will be shown to have resulted from our "preset plan of action" whether that plan was sound or flawed. The result was "foredoomed." It was "set in advance" and we can trace the logic back to the beginning and see how the result was obtained. What's your disagreement? That we didn't know the result in advance? The definition does not require us to read the future, only the past. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:58:25 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189108705.445306.76400@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 11:00 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32...@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > >On 09/05/07 08:08, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1188944683.389501.295...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > >>> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > >>> Koehler) wrote: > >>>> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > > >>>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for > >>>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." > >>>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the > >>>> changes. > >>> no He did not ... that was planned all along ... > > >>> God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel > >>> and other prophecies and they are happening right > >>> now before your very eyes ... > > >> If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then > >> everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. > > >Not true. > > >"Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. > > No it doesn't. For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined > (and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) but that doesn't > imply that God or any other entity consciously created a plan of how the > Universe will unfold. The predetermination would come from the initial > conditions and laws of the Universe. > (For the purposes of this discussion i'm ignoring the complexities about > pre-determination introduced by our poor understanding of the meaning of > Quantum theory and treating the Universe as a classical system). > Hoping also to not reenter the QM debate, which is as fruitless as this one, I whole-heartedly agree with you. Whether there is a God-being or not who has cast the die, the near infinite number of past universal events that has brought us to now is beyond comprehension; as is what effect the convergence of their seemingly disparate reactions now might have upon the future. Though "Free will" may be an illusion, the illusion is so grand that it might as well be real. ============== An Agnostic's Prayer for Everyone: "God protect us from those who hear Your voice." ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 2007 16:10:14 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <40ea2$46e0317d$cef8887a$11281@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > Unless the various laws that govern the universe (physics etc) change, > then the future is already pre-determined. What century are you living in? The laws of physics specifically say that is not so and have said that for about 100 years now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:42:15 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 14:51, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Sep 6, 1:21 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 09/06/07 11:00, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >> >> >>> In article <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32...@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >>>> On 09/05/07 08:08, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>>>> In article <1188944683.389501.295...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>>>>> On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >>>>>> Koehler) wrote: >>>>>>> In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>>>>>>> " He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>>>>>>> he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>>>>>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the >>>>>>> changes. >>>>>> no He did not ... that was planned all along ... >>>>>> God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel >>>>>> and other prophecies and they are happening right >>>>>> now before your very eyes ... >>>>> If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then >>>>> everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. >>>> Not true. >>>> "Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. >>> No it doesn't. >> And I disagree. >> >> $ dict predetermined >> 3 definitions found >> >> From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 >> [gcide]: >> >> Predetermine \Pre`de*ter"mine\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. >> {Predetermined}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Predermining}.] [Pref. pre- >> + determine: cf. F. pr['e]d['e]terminer.] >> 1. To determine (something) beforehand. --Sir M. Hale. >> [1913 Webster] >> >> 2. To doom by previous decree; to foredoom. >> [1913 Webster] >> >> From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: >> >> predetermined >> adj 1: set in advance; "a preset plan of action"; "at a >> predetermined time" [syn: {preset}, {predetermined}] >> >>> For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined >>> (and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) but that doesn't >>> imply that God or any other entity consciously created a plan of how the >>> Universe will unfold. The predetermination would come from the initial >>> conditions and laws of the Universe. >>> (For the purposes of this discussion i'm ignoring the complexities about >>> pre-determination introduced by our poor understanding of the meaning of >>> Quantum theory and treating the Universe as a classical system). >> I just totally disagree with that meaning of predetermined. >> >> For example: the end-result of computer simulations are not >> predetermined before the sim is run. >> > > The conclusion of the sim will be shown to have resulted from our > "preset plan of action" whether that plan was sound or flawed. The Unless there's a RNG in there to simulate unpredictable external variables. > result was "foredoomed." It was "set in advance" and we can trace the > logic back to the beginning and see how the result was obtained. > What's your disagreement? That we didn't know the result in advance? > The definition does not require us to read the future, only the past. > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:07:53 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189120073.708486.303780@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Sep 5, 9:48 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1189033960.111680.170...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > > > >On Sep 4, 9:38 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article <1188953048.290434.30...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> {...snip...} > > >> >> I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you > >> >> don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. > > >> >Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting > >> >remark? No one is asking anything of you. > > >> I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to > >> feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. > > >The depth of your ignorance on this matter is beyond astonishing. > > Precisely what would you have me google? Uh, circumcision? Check wikipedia while you're at it. Is that really beyond you? > I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call > me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. You don't deserve an explanation. *** MAXIMUM PLONK!!! *** > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > [STUPID SIG OMITTED] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:33:02 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189121582.904033.104480@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Not a response to VAXMAN in particular, but I have to attach this to the thread somewhere. If you look in the circumcision article in wikipedia you will see that contrary to VAXMAN's assertion, the length of the member is unchanged. (Why he thought otherwise is beyond me.) You will also find some health benefits, including inhibiting the spread of AIDS. Hardly "barbaric". In fact I remember reading an article in the NY Times (might have been an Op-ed) about men in Africa lining up for the operation to reduce their chances of getting AIDS. >From the article [begin quote] HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases Three randomised control trials published since 2005 confirm that adult male circumcision results in a 50-60% reduction in risk of HIV transmission from female to male.[80] In 2007, the World Health Organisation and UNAIDS recommended that male circumcision should now be recognized as an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention,[2] but emphasised that it does not provide complete protection against HIV infection.[81] McCoombe et al. stated that a layer of keratin could provide protection from viral entry, and found that the keratin is thinner on the foreskin than the glans penis, and thinnest on the inner surface of the foreskin.[82] A meta-analysis found that circumcision is associated with lower rates of syphilis, chancroid and possibly genital herpes. [83] [end quote] And the next section in the article describes yet more benefits. Hardly "barbaric" or heathen. Controversial? Definitely. Barbaric or heathen? Definitely not. It is also central to Judaism, and even secular Jews are usually circumcised. Therefore, to call this barbaric is to call Jews barbaric (not to mention the countless Gentiles who are circumcised). Even the most secular Jews take great offense to such insults. I don't think VAXMAN is anti-Semitic, but I'll bite my tongue at this point. Didn't VAXMAN complain about off-topic posts recently? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:41:42 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1189120073.708486.303780@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >On Sep 5, 9:48 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <1189033960.111680.170...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> >> >On Sep 4, 9:38 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >> In article <1188953048.290434.30...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> {...snip...} >> >> >> >> I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you >> >> >> don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. >> >> >> >Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting >> >> >remark? No one is asking anything of you. >> >> >> I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to >> >> feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. >> >> >The depth of your ignorance on this matter is beyond astonishing. >> >> Precisely what would you have me google? > >Uh, circumcision? Check wikipedia while you're at it. Is that really >beyond you? ...and just what is it that I am to read? Or maybe you just like people to look at the penis pictures there? >> I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call >> me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. > >You don't deserve an explanation. You have got one humungous hair up your ass for me. Typical arrogant NYer! Just like that other peice of shit that's made my life a miserable fuck for 12+ years to the point where I am ready to rope myself an ending if you get my drift. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:24:09 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189124649.401800.32200@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 6:41 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1189120073.708486.303...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > > > > > >On Sep 5, 9:48 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article <1189033960.111680.170...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >On Sep 4, 9:38 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> >> In article <1188953048.290434.30...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >> {...snip...} > > >> >> >> I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you > >> >> >> don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. > > >> >> >Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting > >> >> >remark? No one is asking anything of you. > > >> >> I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to > >> >> feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. > > >> >The depth of your ignorance on this matter is beyond astonishing. > > >> Precisely what would you have me google? > > >Uh, circumcision? Check wikipedia while you're at it. Is that really > >beyond you? > > ...and just what is it that I am to read? Or maybe you just like people to > look at the penis pictures there? > > >> I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call > >> me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. > > >You don't deserve an explanation. > > You have got one humungous hair up your ass for me. Typical arrogant NYer! > Just like that other peice of shit that's made my life a miserable fuck for > 12+ years to the point where I am ready to rope myself an ending if you get > my drift. > "I've been bawled out, balled up, held up, held down, hung up, bulldozed, blackjacked, walked on, cheated, squeezed and mooched; stuck for war tax, excess profits tax, dog tax, and syntax, Liberty bonds, baby bonds, and bonds of matrimony, Red Cross, Blue Cross, and the double cross; I've worked like hell, worked others like hell, have got drunk and got others drunk, lost all I had, and now because I won't spend or lend what little I earn, beg, borrow or steal, I've been cussed, discussed, boycotted, talked to, talked about, lied to, lied about, worked over, pushed over, pushed under, robbed and damned near ruined. The only reason I'm sticking around now is to see WHAT THE HELL IS NEXT." Origin unknown, Quoted from "The Blue Highways" (William Least-Heat Moon) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:28:15 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189124895.075038.64600@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:45:41 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1189121582.904033.104480@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >Not a response to VAXMAN in particular, but I have to attach this to >the thread somewhere. EXCUSE ME? Where did I ever assert that? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:50:06 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <6096f$46e0a043$cef8887a$22486@TEKSAVVY.COM> Bob Koehler wrote: > What century are you living in? The laws of physics specifically say > that is not so and have said that for about 100 years now. Just because *we* cannot get a complete snapshot of the universe without disturbing it does not mean that some "God" cannot. Everything reacts according to some logic. "Random" simply means that we have not yet mastered the understanding of what moves a particle to the left instead of the right. In concept, if you could get a total snapshot with a total book of all the laws that apply to the universe, then you could predict what would happen. Just because humans cannot do this from where we exist doesn't mean that conceptually it cannot be done. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:50:01 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189126201.813167.155430@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 8:28 pm, AEF wrote: > Sorry, the blank post was a goof. I'll have a response this weekend, perhaps. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:52:08 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46e0a037$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <5ka7hdF2pb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have >> and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or >> have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four >> elements? >> > > Those four elements were closer to a religion than a science. They > made almost no testable predictions and failed blatantly under a > great many tests. > > Science is not "I guess" and popularity, or "I have a degree and I > say so". It is testable predictions. The kind folks get Nobel > prises for if they find one repeatable sample of test failure. > I see, like the climate models then ... ? Dweeb > Yes I know some people will use the word "science" with things that > are not testable predictions. If you have to call it science, then > it isn't. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:54:19 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46e0a0b9$0$21933$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Richard Brodie wrote: >> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message >> news:46E00296.2010201@comcast.net... >> >> >>> We STILL recognize those four elements. We now call them the four >>> states of matter; solid, liquid, gas, and plasma! >> >> >> Only loosely: a couple more states have been added more recently >> Bose-Einstein condensates and, erm Alaska. >> >> > > I thought Alaska was a state of mind! Alaska, a state of being :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:53:21 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46e0a07f$0$21933$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <5ka7hdF2pb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>> Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have >>> and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or >>> have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four >>> elements? >>> >> >> Those four elements were closer to a religion than a science. >> They made almost no testable predictions and failed blatantly >> under a great many tests. > > They were the science of the times. > >> >> Science is not "I guess" and popularity, or "I have a degree and I >> say so". It is testable predictions. The kind folks get Nobel >> prises for if they find one repeatable sample of test failure. > > So it is today, thus my reason for saying that hindsight is always > 20-20. People today are so good at judging the past based on things > we have only recently learned. > Hindsight is an exact science. >> >> Yes I know some people will use the word "science" with things >> that are not testable predictions. If you have to call it >> science, then it isn't. > > Even the definitions of words have changed over time. What we call > science today they called magic. > "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -- someone else Dweeb > bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:03:58 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <98714$46e0a381$cef8887a$26885@TEKSAVVY.COM> AEF wrote: > You will also find some health benefits, including inhibiting the > spread of AIDS. Hardly "barbaric". Note that these studies apply to African men in light of their promiscuous lifestyle with many mates and the fact that african females are not yet strong enough to require men use a condom. The AIDS rate in europe (which doesn't perform that operation) is not significantly higher than the AIDS rate in the USA (where that operation was/is part of culture and widespread). And yes, the reasons why the operation is seen as reducing transmission risks are known and well explained. But they only reduce the odds of catching it, they don't eliminate it. In the case of Africa, a slight reduction in AIDS transmission makes a HUGE difference because the plague is so widespread there. One huge potential problem is that if African men think that getting the operation will result in them becoming immune from AIDS, they may become even more promiscusous and the spreading of AIDS may worsen. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:17:54 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1189127874.103056.260450@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 7:53 pm, "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article , > > koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> In article <5ka7hdF2pb4...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu > >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >>> Until someone discovers another notion that explains what we have > >>> and also the anomalies that don't jive with what we have now. Or > >>> have we already forgotten that at one time there were only four > >>> elements? > > >> Those four elements were closer to a religion than a science. > >> They made almost no testable predictions and failed blatantly > >> under a great many tests. > > > They were the science of the times. > > >> Science is not "I guess" and popularity, or "I have a degree and I > >> say so". It is testable predictions. The kind folks get Nobel > >> prises for if they find one repeatable sample of test failure. > > > So it is today, thus my reason for saying that hindsight is always > > 20-20. People today are so good at judging the past based on things > > we have only recently learned. > > Hindsight is an exact science. > > > > >> Yes I know some people will use the word "science" with things > >> that are not testable predictions. If you have to call it > >> science, then it isn't. > > > Even the definitions of words have changed over time. What we call > > science today they called magic. > > "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" > -- someone else > (Arthur C.) Clark's third law. Dean Koontz expanded upon the idea in "The Taking": [spoiler warning] . . . . . . . "An extraterrestrial species, hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than we are, would possess technology that would appear to us to not be the result of applied science but entirely supernatural, pure magic. ... A supernatural event of world-shaking proportions, occurring in a faithless time when only science is believed to have the power to work miracles, might appear to be the work of an extraterrestrial species hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than we are." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:54:38 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46E0BD6E.7070701@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/06/07 11:00, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >>In article <7_zDi.246902$dA7.32966@newsfe16.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >> >>>On 09/05/07 08:08, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>> >>>>In article <1188944683.389501.295990@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >>>> >>>>>On Sep 4, 4:50 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >>>>>Koehler) wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In article <1188926008.865710.82...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>" He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for >>>>>>>he is not a man, that he should change his mind." >>>>>> >>>>>> But he did change his mind. He sent his only son to implement the >>>>>> changes. >>>>> >>>>>no He did not ... that was planned all along ... >>>>> >>>>>God knows the future ... read revelation and Daniel >>>>>and other prophecies and they are happening right >>>>>now before your very eyes ... >>>>> >>>> >>>>If he knows the future (which he obviously should being omniscient) then >>>>everything is predetermined and hence our free-will is an illusion. >>> >>>Not true. >>> >>>"Predetermined" implies a consciously-created pre-set plan of action. >>> >> >>No it doesn't. > > > And I disagree. > > $ dict predetermined > 3 definitions found > > From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 > [gcide]: > > Predetermine \Pre`de*ter"mine\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. > {Predetermined}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Predermining}.] [Pref. pre- > + determine: cf. F. pr['e]d['e]terminer.] > 1. To determine (something) beforehand. --Sir M. Hale. > [1913 Webster] > > 2. To doom by previous decree; to foredoom. > [1913 Webster] > > From WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) [wn]: > > predetermined > adj 1: set in advance; "a preset plan of action"; "at a > predetermined time" [syn: {preset}, {predetermined}] > > >> For all I know the future Universe is totally predetermined >>(and we have no free will but just an illusion of free will) but that doesn't >>imply that God or any other entity consciously created a plan of how the >>Universe will unfold. The predetermination would come from the initial >>conditions and laws of the Universe. >>(For the purposes of this discussion i'm ignoring the complexities about >>pre-determination introduced by our poor understanding of the meaning of >>Quantum theory and treating the Universe as a classical system). > > > I just totally disagree with that meaning of predetermined. > > For example: the end-result of computer simulations are not > predetermined before the sim is run. > The results ARE predetermined but they may not be KNOWN in advance! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:50:22 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: > "An extraterrestrial species, hundreds or thousands of years more > advanced than we are, would possess technology that would appear to us > to not be the result of applied science but entirely supernatural, > pure magic. This would definitely have been true until a couple decades ago. But with advances in hollywood special effects , sci-fi TV and movies have give us "normality" in many science fiction concepts. If some advanced beings landed here and they didn't have transporters, we'd say "what, you don't yet have transporters ?" ? We wouldn't think what they are doing is magic, we'd ask "how did they do that ?" or "how does this work". Yes, we'd be amazed at their technology, but we would know it was technology. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:35:51 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 18:07, AEF wrote: > On Sep 5, 9:48 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <1189033960.111680.170...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> >>> On Sep 4, 9:38 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> In article <1188953048.290434.30...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >>>> {...snip...} >>>>>> I happen to prefer every inch of my member, as does Mrs. VAXman, so if you >>>>>> don't mind, I'll opt out of your barbaric heathen ritual of body mutilation. >>>>> Why did you make this incredibly inaccurate, ignorant, insulting >>>>> remark? No one is asking anything of you. >>>> I don't see how it is inaccurate or ignorant or insulting? I happen to >>>> feel that tattooing is just as barbaric and heathen as body mutilation. >>> The depth of your ignorance on this matter is beyond astonishing. >> Precisely what would you have me google? > > Uh, circumcision? Check wikipedia while you're at it. Is that really > beyond you? > >> I voiced my opinion of a barbaric and heathen ritual and for that you call >> me ignorant and insulting. Please explain. > > You don't deserve an explanation. > > *** MAXIMUM PLONK!!! *** > >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> > [STUPID SIG OMITTED] I'm as confused at your reaction as VAXman. What did he do/say wrong? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:38:35 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 18:33, AEF wrote: > Not a response to VAXMAN in particular, but I have to attach this to > the thread somewhere. > > If you look in the circumcision article in wikipedia you will see that > contrary to VAXMAN's assertion, the length of the member is unchanged. > (Why he thought otherwise is beyond me.) I laughed at VAXmn's comments, knowing them to be meant as light- hearted banter. Unless you're Jewish or of a *radical* Christian sect, I think you're taking this *WAY* too seriously. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:44:03 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 09/06/07 19:54, Dr. Dweeb wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> Richard Brodie wrote: >>> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message >>> news:46E00296.2010201@comcast.net... >>> >>> >>>> We STILL recognize those four elements. We now call them the four >>>> states of matter; solid, liquid, gas, and plasma! >>> >>> Only loosely: a couple more states have been added more recently >>> Bose-Einstein condensates and, erm Alaska. >>> >>> >> I thought Alaska was a state of mind! > > Alaska, a state of being :) Alaska, a state of bean. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:27:55 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Intel Launches Quad-Core "Tigerton" Message-ID: <46b6e$46e0e15d$cef8887a$26669@TEKSAVVY.COM> Neil Rieck wrote: > series processors. The new quad-core Xeon 7300 series features > scalability up to 32 processors for a total of 128 CPU cores. How many cores can an IA64 based Superdome have ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:07:55 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Open source graphic drivers Message-ID: <%lXDi.39749$Pv4.34744@newsfe19.lga> On 09/06/07 12:44, JF Mezei wrote: > http://news.com.com/8301-13580_3-9772788-39.html > > ATI/AMD have decided to release open source drivers for their graphics > cards. This, to help the Linux world which really wnats everything to > be open sourced. Discern between *want* and *accept*. The Linux box I'm writing this on uses the closed-source nvidia driver to power my FX5200 card. Certain tasks (3D being the main one) are uncountably faster with this driver than the closed source "nv" driver. The reason that many (most?) Linux desktop users run NVIDIA instead of ATI is that not only is the open-source driver slow at 3D tasks, but the closed-source driver has, historically, *REALLY SUCKED*. Buggy as an ant farm. The nvidia closed-source driver is actually pretty good, if a bit bloated. As to why "we" want drivers to be open-source: support and bugs. Every time that NVIDIA releases a new version of the driver, they prune out support for older cards. Soon enough, NVIDIA will drop support for my perfectly adequate, fully functioning video card. I'll be left with the choices of: a) software stagnation, b) lose 3D and movie performance by moving to the OSS driver, or c) buying a newer video card. And then there's the *BIG REASON*: the vendor might decide to pull the driver, or stop supporting/enhancing/fixing it. Bit rot will eventually make it unusable by modern software. > Perhaps VMS can benefit from this since I would assume this would make > FredK's job much easier and would enable him to support more modern > graphics cards on VMS. Depends on if they are released BSD/MIT-style or GPL/LGPL. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:28:54 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Open source graphic drivers Message-ID: "Ron Johnson" wrote in message news:%lXDi.39749$Pv4.34744@newsfe19.lga... > On 09/06/07 12:44, JF Mezei wrote: >> http://news.com.com/8301-13580_3-9772788-39.html >> >> ATI/AMD have decided to release open source drivers for their graphics >> cards. This, to help the Linux world which really wnats everything to >> be open sourced. > > Discern between *want* and *accept*. > > The Linux box I'm writing this on uses the closed-source nvidia > driver to power my FX5200 card. Certain tasks (3D being the main > one) are uncountably faster with this driver than the closed source > "nv" driver. > > The reason that many (most?) Linux desktop users run NVIDIA instead > of ATI is that not only is the open-source driver slow at 3D tasks, > but the closed-source driver has, historically, *REALLY SUCKED*. > Buggy as an ant farm. > > The nvidia closed-source driver is actually pretty good, if a bit > bloated. > > As to why "we" want drivers to be open-source: support and bugs. > > Every time that NVIDIA releases a new version of the driver, they > prune out support for older cards. Soon enough, NVIDIA will drop > support for my perfectly adequate, fully functioning video card. > > I'll be left with the choices of: > a) software stagnation, > b) lose 3D and movie performance by moving to the OSS driver, or > c) buying a newer video card. > > > And then there's the *BIG REASON*: the vendor might decide to pull > the driver, or stop supporting/enhancing/fixing it. Bit rot will > eventually make it unusable by modern software. > >> Perhaps VMS can benefit from this since I would assume this would make >> FredK's job much easier and would enable him to support more modern >> graphics cards on VMS. > > Depends on if they are released BSD/MIT-style or GPL/LGPL. > The answer is maybe. In the past we as a company negotiated with the vendor to obtain source (xFree86 generally) code. The problem was that the code we got was not as well optimized as the closed source Windows code - so we spent many man years fixing and optimizing the "open" source code. Over time vendors have created closed source Linux versions - closed source code is next to impossible to get from any vendor. Some vendors won't even talk to you (you can guess which one) about either. Having them implement a seperate Open Source driver and Closed Source driver is only a marginal help. One thing it will help to do is extricate Linux (and by extension UNIX) from using BIOS emulation to initialize secondary cards... especially if nVidia follows suit. There is a push in the firmware/hardware world to eliminate the video BIOS - but to do that without losing Linux support means the driver needs to have the init logic like the closed source drivers for Windows does. [VMS initialized cards by hand. In the ATI case, we actually use the same methodology as Windows to do it] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:49:43 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Open source graphic drivers Message-ID: <46E0BC47.4070701@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > http://news.com.com/8301-13580_3-9772788-39.html > > ATI/AMD have decided to release open source drivers for their graphics > cards. This, to help the Linux world which really wnats everything to > be open sourced. > > Perhaps VMS can benefit from this since I would assume this would make > FredK's job much easier and would enable him to support more modern > graphics cards on VMS. Since, and I believe I'm quoting Fred K. here, a graphics card has the (marketing) life span of the average fruit fly, open source drivers are not going to be that much help! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:35:21 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <46e0102a$1@mvb.saic.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <46d8262d$1@mvb.saic.com>, > Mark Berryman writes: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>>In article <39033$46d76794$cef8887a$22000@teksavvy.com>, >>> JF Mezei writes: >>> >>> >>>>I was doing email before Windows was born. >>> >>> >>>Just out of curiosity, when did VMS first have the ability to send >>>Email between different machines? >> >>1977 (at least for any system outside of development). > > > Now there's real talent for you. They were sending Email between machines > using VMS before it even existed!! > > > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/digital/timeline/32-bit.htm > > October 1977: > Introduction of the VAX-11/780, the first member of the VAX computer family. > February 1978: > V1.0 of the VMS operating system ships. > > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Timeline > > 1978: VAX-11/VMS released > > http://hampage.hu/vax/e_main.html > > 1977. Introduction of the VAX-11/780 "supermini" computer > 1978. VMS1.0 shipped > > http://www.byte.com/art/9611/sec5/art1.htm > > April 1978: First VAX shipped, with a preliminary version of VMS. > August 1978: VMS 1.0 ships. > > Now, could someone provide the real answer? When did DECNET first come > into existence? Was there any serial machine-to-machine protocol for > VMS before the first port of UUCP? The answer given was the real answer. A VAX-11/780 connected to several PDP-11 systems (PDP-11/44 and PDP-11/70 systems as I recall). Email was being exchanged between these systems as well as files. All in 1977. Exactly what do you think was running on that VAX-11/780 that was first introduced in 1977? Why do you think the 30th anniversary of VMS is this year, not next year? Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:48:15 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: Sue wrote: > On Sep 5, 6:36 pm, Rich Jordan wrote: >> On Sep 5, 1:40 pm, Sue wrote: >> >> >> >>> Some clarification around the license plates >>> the top left corner there is a small hp logo then top center there is >>> the New Hampshire state moto (Live Free or Die) top right corner there >>> is the year 2007. In the center there is a 2 to 2 1/2 inch OpenVMS >>> and across the bottom is the slogan >>> The following are the slogans that have been submitted so far that >>> were not under copywrite, did not mention a persons name that we would >>> have to get permission from, I did leave is some of the funny ones but >>> we will have to narrow it down and then vote in a week or so. More on >>> that later. Now just looking for more ideas. >>> Warm Regards as always >>> Sue >> . >> . >> . >> >> I wish there was a way to encapsulate in a few words the fact that our >> VAX had its last VMS installation in 1983-4 (before my time), and our >> Alpha in 1995. Since then we have applied VMS upgrades, sometimes >> also copying the existing system disk to a newer/larger drive or newer >> interface type for an upgraded system, but we have NOT ever needed to >> do a reformat/reinstall of the operating system. There's little bits >> of VMS V4.1 (and maybe older, I'm not certain) on the VAX system disk, >> and 6.1 on the Alpha's, with file creation dates to match. >> >> Not to mention the fact that our 1989 vintage VS3100-30 workstation, >> our 1992 vintage MicroVAX, and I think the 1993 vintage AXP PC-150 >> (belongs to someone else now) are still running just fine, thanks, >> after many, many years of 24x7 service. >> >> VMS, the closest you can get to eternal computing. >> >> VMS, to eternity, and beyond! >> >> VMS, prepared for Y10K and beyond! >> >> And apologies in advance... >> >> If you've got your Windows grippin' >> on your data, but its slippin' >> to the hackers that are nippin' >> at your door... >> >> Just remember 'bout the Vaxen >> that your bosses said were taxin' >> and the Gartner boys were blastin' >> all the more... >> >> 'Cause back then you could be sleepin' >> While your consoles were a-beepin' >> with the hacker's failed beatin' >> at the core... >> >> But your future is a keepin' >> up with expoits of the week 'n >> So with windows you'll be sleepin' >> Nevermore- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Dear Rich, > > That is pretty amazing. I just forwarded it to myself so I can send > to the VMS Engineering group, I think they will like it. > > Two more slogans for me > > VMS, the best is still to be. > VMS - Where scurity is not a layered product > OpenVMS - used in REAL flightsimulators OpenVMS - found in hospitals, tanks, stockmarkets, fighters, .... OpenVMS - designed for production and stability from the start on OpenVMS Unix is just another application. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:00:41 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <1189116041.770555.262640@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Sep 6, 11:50 am, Rich Jordan wrote: > On Sep 6, 11:17 am, Sue wrote: > > > > > On Sep 5, 6:36 pm, Rich Jordan wrote: > > > > On Sep 5, 1:40 pm, Sue wrote: > > > > > Some clarification around the license plates > > > > > the top left corner there is a small hp logo then top center there is > > > > the New Hampshire state moto (Live Free or Die) top right corner there > > > > is the year 2007. In the center there is a 2 to 2 1/2 inch OpenVMS > > > > and across the bottom is the slogan > > > > > The following are the slogans that have been submitted so far that > > > > were not under copywrite, did not mention a persons name that we would > > > > have to get permission from, I did leave is some of the funny ones but > > > > we will have to narrow it down and then vote in a week or so. More on > > > > that later. Now just looking for more ideas. > > > > > Warm Regards as always > > > > Sue > > > > . > > > . > > > . > > > > I wish there was a way to encapsulate in a few words the fact that our > > > VAX had its last VMS installation in 1983-4 (before my time), and our > > > Alpha in 1995. Since then we have applied VMS upgrades, sometimes > > > also copying the existing system disk to a newer/larger drive or newer > > > interface type for an upgraded system, but we have NOT ever needed to > > > do a reformat/reinstall of the operating system. There's little bits > > > of VMS V4.1 (and maybe older, I'm not certain) on the VAX system disk, > > > and 6.1 on the Alpha's, with file creation dates to match. > > > > Not to mention the fact that our 1989 vintage VS3100-30 workstation, > > > our 1992 vintage MicroVAX, and I think the 1993 vintage AXP PC-150 > > > (belongs to someone else now) are still running just fine, thanks, > > > after many, many years of 24x7 service. > > > > VMS, the closest you can get to eternal computing. > > > > VMS, to eternity, and beyond! > > > > VMS, prepared for Y10K and beyond! > > > > And apologies in advance... > > > > If you've got your Windows grippin' > > > on your data, but its slippin' > > > to the hackers that are nippin' > > > at your door... > > > > Just remember 'bout the Vaxen > > > that your bosses said were taxin' > > > and the Gartner boys were blastin' > > > all the more... > > > > 'Cause back then you could be sleepin' > > > While your consoles were a-beepin' > > > with the hacker's failed beatin' > > > at the core... > > > > But your future is a keepin' > > > up with expoits of the week 'n > > > So with windows you'll be sleepin' > > > Nevermore- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Dear Rich, > > > That is pretty amazing. I just forwarded it to myself so I can send > > to the VMS Engineering group, I think they will like it. > > > Two more slogans for me > > > VMS, the best is still to be. > > VMS - Where scurity is not a layered product > > Doggerel is not amazing, but thank you ;) > > Mild tweaks (layered product may not be the most well known term) > > VMS - Security is NOT an afterthought > VMS - Security is NOT an add-on > VMS - The Best is Yet to Be > > also > > VMS - you wouldn't want windows controlling nukes > VMS - Illuc ivi, illud feci ( (its) been there, done that) > VMS - "hot standby" is for wimps! > Silly rabbit, windows is for kids! > > I'm running low, as the above clearly atests. VMS - Engineering Solutions, not talking paperclips VMS - Minefield and solitaire NOT included VMS - Too damned expensive, and worth every penny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:53:03 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: Dirk Munk wrote: > OpenVMS - used in REAL flightsimulators Past tense is correct. CAE long ago migrated from Digital gear and from VMS to Unix. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:10:14 -0500 From: Brad Hamilton Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: Rich Jordan writes: > On Sep 6, 11:50 am, Rich Jordan wrote: [...] > VMS - Engineering Solutions, not talking paperclips > VMS - Minefield and solitaire NOT included > VMS - Too damned expensive, and worth every penny (Open)VMS - you get what you pay for ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:43:39 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <6fe1d$46e0c8fe$cef8887a$20835@TEKSAVVY.COM> If only the application you need ran on VMS ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:57:01 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: <42bbe$46e0cc21$cef8887a$21593@TEKSAVVY.COM> JF Mezei wrote: > If only the application you need ran on VMS ! Oops sorry for poor english: I only the application you needed ran on VMS ! some more: VMS has had it for a long time VMS: you know you want it. VMS: the environment of your dreams VMS: it is what you need. VMS: It is what you want VMS lets you go home at night (I was going to say "works as advertised", but since VMS isn't advertised, it is tantamount to saying VMS doesn't work :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:51:04 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: X windows display extensions question Message-ID: <07090614510488_20247752@antinode.org> From: JF Mezei > I was just curious if it was normal for an X-server to give a different > list of extensions depending on who was asking. > > Does the X server really know or care that a connection is via SSH ? From time to time (for some of us, anyway), it can actually help to read the documentation: Apple3:~ sms$ man ssh [...] -X Enables X11 forwarding. This can also be specified on a per-host basis in a configuration file. X11 forwarding should be enabled with caution. Users with the ability to bypass file permissions on the remote host (for the user's X authorization database) can access the local X11 display through the forwarded connection. An attacker may then be able to perform activities such as keystroke monitoring. For this reason, X11 forwarding is subjected to X11 SECURITY extension restrictions by default. Please refer to the ssh -Y option and the ForwardX11Trusted directive in ssh_config(5) for more information. -x Disables X11 forwarding. -Y Enables trusted X11 forwarding. Trusted X11 forwardings are not subjected to the X11 SECURITY extension controls. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.487 ************************