INFO-VAX Sun, 02 Sep 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 482 Contents: Re: Alpha ZIP and GZIP Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: Copyrightability? (was Re: VMS License Plates) Re: Copyrightability? (was Re: VMS License Plates) Re: If PL/1 is the king of languages... Re: If PL/1 is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... RE: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? RE: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Re: VMS License Plates ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 13:51:34 -0400 From: Glenn Everhart Subject: Re: Alpha ZIP and GZIP Message-ID: <46DAF826.2090606@gce.com> ZIP can easily preserve VMS file characteristics if the "-V" switch is used (I generally have to quote the options to get uppercase V to Zip). This has been working fine for many years. However note: a Zip file made this way will store underlying files the way they exist in VMS, so if you want to read them on some heathen system that uses streams you will need a program to convert the record lengths followed by data into delimited records. Remember that odd record lengths get null padded also! Glenn Everhart Jim Mehlhop wrote: > Answering my own post > > The limit for zip is 4GB (included the latest release 2.32) > > GZIP does not have the capability to maintain VMS file characteristics! > > ARGH > > > > Jim Mehlhop wrote: >> I have a problem with a large file that needs to be zipped and sent to >> a PC for burning to a dvd. >> >> With ZIP I do >> >> $ zip "-V" 'saveset-file-spec' 'file(s)-to-be-zipped' >> >> The problem is ZIP only handels files up to a "certain" size >> >> Questions are: >> >> 1: what is the upper limit on Alpha Zip >> $ zip -h >> Copyright (C) 1990-1999 Info-ZIP >> Type 'zip "-L"' for software license. >> Zip 2.3 (November 29th 1999). Usage: zip=="$disk:[dir]zip.exe" >> zip [-options] [-b path] [-t mmddyyyy] [-n suffixes] [zipfile list] >> [-xi list] >> . >> . >> . >> >> 2: How can I get GZIP to maintain VMS file characteristics? >> >> $ gzip -h >> gzip 1.3.5-1 >> (2002-09-30) >> usage: gzip [-cdfhlLnNrtvV19] [-S suffix] [file ...] >> -c --stdout write on standard output, keep original files unchanged >> -d --decompress decompress >> -f --force force overwrite of output file and compress links >> -h --help give this help >> -l --list list compressed file contents >> -L --license display software license >> -n --no-name do not save or restore the original name and timestamp >> -N --name save or restore the original name and time stamp >> -q --quiet suppress all warnings >> -r --recursive operate recursively on directories >> -S .suf --suffix .suf use suffix .suf on compressed files >> -t --test test compressed file integrity >> -v --verbose verbose mode >> -V --version display version number >> -1 --fast compress faster >> -9 --best compress better >> file... files to (de)compress. If none given, use standard >> input. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 14:09:55 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > Included as part of the Operating System > > Record Management TCP/IP Security > > VMS X - X > > MVS X ? - > > Unix - X X > > In the case of VMS TCP/IP and MVS Security there are multiple > competing implementations, adhering to a common programming interface. My recollection of IBM's DOS/VSE pricing model (nearly 30 years ago) was that it was split into many components, each of which were itemized on the monthly software rental invoice (IIRC, IBM didn't sell software licenses for their mainframes, but offered them for rent instead). Our software item list was quite long, (BTAM, VTAM, POWER, VSAM etc.), before we even got as far as compilers or a database. From what I recall, POWER (print/batch spooler and the rough equivalent of the VMS Job Controller*) was invoiced as an item costing x per month. * your machine was allegedly a boat anchor without POWER, at least in our state of being IBM novices. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 07:43:51 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 09/02/07 07:09, P. Sture wrote: [snip] > > Our software item list was quite long, (BTAM, VTAM, POWER, VSAM etc.), > before we even got as far as compilers or a database. Wow, those are some acronyms I haven't thought about in a while. Did you program using VOLLIE? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:23:17 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/02/07 07:09, P. Sture wrote: > [snip] > > > > Our software item list was quite long, (BTAM, VTAM, POWER, VSAM etc.), > > before we even got as far as compilers or a database. > > Wow, those are some acronyms I haven't thought about in a while. > > Did you program using VOLLIE? If I did, it was only in the context of one of the many IBM courses I did. I vaguely remember IPF or IPCF (both?) for system programming. They were menu driven but so slow you quickly learnt how to do the same manually. Because we adopted and adapted a comprehensive applications package from a sister company, we ended up with PL/I, the SHADOW TP system (a lean'n'mean competitor of CICS), and the TOTAL database. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 08:52:58 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Copyrightability? (was Re: VMS License Plates) Message-ID: <46DAB22A.7080707@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/01/07 05:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >>In article <8q6Ci.19183$Zk5.16187@newsfe23.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >> >>>On 08/31/07 21:13, Main, Kerry wrote: >>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] >>>>>Sent: August 31, 2007 12:20 PM >>>>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>>>Subject: RE: VMS License Plates >>>>> >>>>>Of course there are some of us who will display a license plate >>>>>(or other trinket) that says VMS but not one that says OpenVMS. >>>>> >>>>>I doubt there are any of the reverse persuasion. >>>>> >>>>>I suppose that means a chance to lower the production cost by adding >>>>>three letters. >>>> >>>>Well, something to consider about VMS vs. OpenVMS is that there are now other vendor >>>>products called VMS: >>>> >>>>http://www.networkworld.com/reviews/2002/0204rev.html >>> >>>That's a copyright violation if I every heard one. >> >>How is it a _copyright_ violation? What was said or printed in the >>article that is not "fair use" information possibly from some Cisco >>features documentation? > > > Not violated by NetworkWorld, but by Cisco. Certainly DEC > copyrighted "VMS". > > But then... can you copyright acronyms? > > Of course, if HP kept VMS in computer people's minds as anything but > a dead product, Cisco would not have used that acronym... > Perhaps the OP was referring to a Trademark violation. The law gets a little involved; there's the famous case of "nothing sucks like a VAX" which was NOT a trademark violation because there was a vanishingly small probability that a vacuum cleaner and a computer would be mistaken for each other! In the course of my job search, I've learned that "VMS" is also "Vehicle Management System" which is also not a Trademark violation! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:58:58 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Copyrightability? (was Re: VMS License Plates) Message-ID: <1188752338.208213.232650@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 1, 6:52 pm, Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article <1188678137.066910.264...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > > VMS is a trademark. Here's link to the gov's trademark office and a > > list of active VMS trademarks. > > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/2swfv2 > > That gives me a government page saying: > > This search session has expired. Please start a > search session again by clicking on the > TRADEMARK icon, if you wish to continue. You just never know what you're going to get when you click on a link, do ya?:-) Looks like the pages are just session-buffered and time out. Seems the search must be re-executed after a bit and the url won't do it. Anyway, if you click the TRADEMARK icon at the upper left, then click the "Search" link over in the right column you'll get the search engines. The Basic works, so just click that, and set your radio buttons the way you want. (I chose "Singular" and "Live") Key VMS into the Search Term box and you'll get to the search page I linked. Or, go the the US Patent and Trademark Office Homepage and start from there: http://www.uspto.gov Or, don't. I imagine you already know about this stuff anyway, but thanks for pointing this out. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 01:04:09 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: If PL/1 is the king of languages... Message-ID: On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> ... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? > > Same reason it's powered by not-COBOL, not-Pascal, not-Fortran ... > >> http://www.kednos.com/kednos/Welcome >> http://www.kednos.com/pli/king.pdf > > Lighten-up (or is that liten-up? I don't have a Webster's); you know > where he's coming from ;-) I'm sure he's a great guy. But he's so gung-ho on PL/I that it's fun to occasionally tease him about not eating his own dog food. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:02:36 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: If PL/1 is the king of languages... Message-ID: <13dkm994qhpg4d4@corp.supernews.com> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: > >>Ron Johnson wrote: >> >>>... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? >> >>Same reason it's powered by not-COBOL, not-Pascal, not-Fortran ... >> >> >>>http://www.kednos.com/kednos/Welcome >>>http://www.kednos.com/pli/king.pdf >> >>Lighten-up (or is that liten-up? I don't have a Webster's); you know >>where he's coming from ;-) > > > I'm sure he's a great guy. > > But he's so gung-ho on PL/I that it's fun to occasionally tease him > about not eating his own dog food. I've never met the man. I do know he's an enthusiastic golfer. I'd say we have little in common :-) I'd also guess Tom feels strongly enough about '...does not stop you doing stupid things, because that would also stop you doing clever things” as being largely overtaken by events and that in most cases we should be prevented from doing those stupid things (like overrunning array bounds). Of course it may just be that PL/I provides him with a better grade of golf course :-) -- Sonja: There are many different kinds of love, Boris. There's love between a man and a woman; between a mother and son... Boris: Two women. Let's not forget my favorite. [Woody Allen; Love and Death] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 07:15:19 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:32:36 -0700, Mark Daniel wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: >> >>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> ... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? It is in a way, financially. But even if I were to write a web server in PL/I why would I? Mark has done such a fine job with WASD, and it is well written. I frankly don't understand why HP doesn't throw Apache and promote WASD. I have Apache running on a Tru64 system, or did, and there is no comparison. >>> >>> Same reason it's powered by not-COBOL, not-Pascal, not-Fortran ... >>> >>> >>>> http://www.kednos.com/kednos/Welcome >>>> http://www.kednos.com/pli/king.pdf >>> >>> Lighten-up (or is that liten-up? I don't have a Webster's); you know >>> where he's coming from ;-) >> I'm sure he's a great guy. >> But he's so gung-ho on PL/I that it's fun to occasionally tease him >> about not eating his own dog food. > > I've never met the man. > I do know he's an enthusiastic golfer. > I'd say we have little in common :-) > I'd also guess Tom feels strongly enough about '...does not stop you > doing stupid things, because that would also stop you doing clever > thingsā€¯ as being largely overtaken by events and that in most cases we > should be prevented from doing those stupid things (like overrunning > array bounds). Of course it may just be that PL/I provides him with a > better grade of golf course :-) It does, and if you can demonstrate adequate proficiency in PL/I I may just treat you to a round if you come to Pebble Beach, (Are you listening, Fred?) :-) > > -- > Sonja: There are many different kinds of love, Boris. There's love > between a man and a woman; between a mother and son... > Boris: Two women. Let's not forget my favorite. > [Woody Allen; Love and Death] -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:28:41 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: If PL/I is the king of languages... Message-ID: <1188754121.793012.179410@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Sep 2, 9:15 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:32:36 -0700, Mark Daniel > wrote: > > > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 09/02/07 00:17, Mark Daniel wrote: > > >>> Ron Johnson wrote: > > >>>> ... why is the web site powered by not-the-king-of-languages? > > It is in a way, financially. But even if I were to write a web server in > PL/I why would I? Mark has done such a fine job with WASD, and it is > well written. I frankly don't understand why HP doesn't throw Apache and > promote WASD. I have Apache running on a Tru64 system, or did, and there > is no comparison. > Sadly, as we all know, the "best" doesn't always win and the most successful is often not technically the best. If I'd paid attention to that fact so many years ago, I would have bought Microsoft stock rather than that of the companies with the best products; in some areas of life technical knowledge can be a handicap. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 08:35:07 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Message-ID: <003101c7ed66$14298160$3c7c8420$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform > early? [snip] > > You could always write it in PL/I and use ON-conditions. Never > understood > why > talented people waste their time using crappy languages. > LOL! I don't have a PL/I compiler available for Alpha, though I do for Windows and I have your compiler available on a VAX hobby system. How would you write this for PL/I, and, all this good natured joshing aside, what do you think makes it better? Inquiring minds want to know... even if it is "topic drift" of a high order. Fair warning, I am a bit of a COBOL bigot, a C instructor, and somewhat enamored of Algol derived languages from my school and early career days. (Blame it on Wirth!) Ada for instance, is a beautiful language with every component being well designed, that blends the best of Pascal/Modula, C, and old style HOL's like CMS-2 ad Jovial all together.;) -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 08:40:24 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Message-ID: <003201c7ed66$d0e9d160$72bd7420$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: FrankS [mailto:sapienza@noesys.com] > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:47 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform > early? > > On Sep 1, 6:44 pm, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > I'm a little puzzled what the recommended method here is for this > case (see > > sample code snippet below)... use a goto? Some System call? Embed > everything > > in a deep nesting of Ifs? > > How you write your code is up to you. Uppercase, lowercase, terminal > format, ANSI format, structured, unstructured. > > I'm a firm believer in the single-point-of-entry, single-point-of-exit > style of programming (among others). It might require more IFs than > other methods, but it makes it easier (IMHO) to follow the code flow. > This is quite a good way to solve the issue, and has many good points. The assembler programmer in me hates to do all the tests though, which is why I looked at the GO TO solution. I think they are both reasonable ways to solve the issue and both have strong good points. I still miss GOBACK though. :) -Paul > My version of your sample problem would be something like this: > > DATA DIVISION. > WORKING-STORAGE SECTION. > 77 TRX_RESULT PIC X(1). > 88 TRX_FAIL VALUE 'F'. > 88 TRX_SUCCESS VALUE 'S'. > > PROCEDURE DIVISION. > MAIN-PROGRAM SECTION. > WRITE-EM. > SET TRX_SUCCESS TO TRUE. > > WRITE DC00-RECORD > INVALID KEY > PERFORM REPORT-TRX-FAIL > END-WRITE. > > IF (TRX_SUCCESS) > WRITE DC01-RECORD > INVALID KEY > PERFORM REPORT-TRX-FAIL > END-WRITE > END-IF. > > IF (TRX_SUCCESS) > WRITE DC02-RECORD > INVALID KEY > PERFORM REPORT-TRX-FAIL > END-WRITE > END-IF. > > STOP RUN. > > REPORT-TRX-FAIL. > SET TRX_FAIL TO TRUE. > > CALL "SYS$ABORT_TRANSW" ... > > CALL "SYS$PUTMSG" ... > > DISPLAY whatever. > > etcetera. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 07:04:42 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Recommended HP COBOL way to exit a paragraph or perform early? Message-ID: On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:20:15 -0700, FrankS wrote: > On Sep 1, 9:03 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> You could always write it in PL/I and use ON-conditions. Never >> understood >> why talented people waste their time using crappy languages. > > When I was in high school (a gazillion years ago it seems) I was among > the snobs that looked down on the COBOL and RPG programmers. I wrote, > back then, in BASIC, FORTRAN, and Assembler. In college I took every > programming language elective available -- PL/I, Pascal, Snobol, LISP, > C, and others. (I used PL/I for my class project in compiler design, > if it makes you feel better Tom.) My first paying job while in > college was using FORTRAN (under RSX-11). Then we got a project which > was more suited to COBOL, and then another COBOL project after that > (on a VAX 11/750). > > I can say from experience that every language has its good and bad > points. Some languages are more suited to certain tasks than others. > COBOL -- despite my deep teenage contempt towards it, and perhaps in a > fitting twist of karma -- is really good at what it does, particularly > in the "back-end" business applications that have paid me so nicely > over the years. When COBOL becomes too bulky I write utility routines > in BASIC or C, depending on which other licenses the client has > available. > > Don't be such a PL/I snob, Tom. It's not the be-all-end-all > programming language any more than Java, C, C++, or any other. > I have coded in the languages you mention and some you didn't, and if I am going to write a piece of code, it is my experience that it is quicker in PL/I, is more error-free, more robust wrt error handling and easier/cheaper to maintain. Of course, a lot of this may be coding standards, but because the language has a higher level of abstraction, than say C, you don't have to write numerous utility routines (each of which needs testing) since it is likely semantically included in the language. In the late 80's Sun engaged me to write a multichannel IMS frontend multiplexor in C basing it on one written in PL/I and Cobol on a Stratus machine. I would say half the effort went into writing utilities, and you certainly don't feel very productive reinventing the wheel. Most of the extensions to Fortran and C are constructs that you will find in the PL/I standard. Gnu C long ago added, e.g., lexical scoping (i.e., permitting inheritance of declarations to contained procedures). As for Cobol, I can't think of anything that is better with it. Ditto for C, Ditto for Fortran. I think that this is generally true for algorithmic languages (didn't include Algol, Burroughs was the last hold-out) Lisp is certainly better for string handling. So am I a snob, yes. Experience allows one to be discriminatory. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:03:23 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS License Plates Message-ID: In article <8q6Ci.19183$Zk5.16187@newsfe23.lga>, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/31/07 21:13, Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] > >> Sent: August 31, 2007 12:20 PM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: RE: VMS License Plates > >> > >> Of course there are some of us who will display a license plate > >> (or other trinket) that says VMS but not one that says OpenVMS. > >> > >> I doubt there are any of the reverse persuasion. > >> > >> I suppose that means a chance to lower the production cost by adding > >> three letters. > > > > Well, something to consider about VMS vs. OpenVMS is that there are now > > other vendor > > products called VMS: > > > > http://www.networkworld.com/reviews/2002/0204rev.html > > That's a copyright violation if I every heard one. Don't you mean trademark violation there? Assuming there is one on VMS since iit became OpenVMS... Others that I have come across include Vehicle Management System (cars), Vessel Management System (boats) and Voluntary Milking System (moo!) -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.482 ************************