INFO-VAX Tue, 14 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 443 Contents: Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool RE: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool RE: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Re: Alpha/Integrity versions of VMS. Computerworld article Re: Computerworld article Re: Computerworld article Re: Computerworld article Re: Computerworld article RE: Computerworld article Re: DECServer wiring Re: DECServer wiring Re: DECServer wiring Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Oldest Alpha for upgrade to Integrity Re: What VMS does RIGHT! Re: What VMS does RIGHT! Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: X Window Servers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:07:06 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Message-ID: In article <1186576845.885991.85450@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: > The reason that we might want to upgrade to Integrity is that someday > it will be hard to get replacements or maintenance for Alpha hardware > (DS10ish systems in our case). > > I guess that date is probably 10 to 30 years out. Any better guesses? > > Anyway, if Integrity sales are poor and it gets discontinued, then > Integrity will have a similar slow death. > > Will Alpha really die before Integrity? If not, then there is no real > point in upgrading in order to forstall death. > > By die, of course, I mean become unreplacable and unmaintainable. If you don't anticipate vastly greater processing power needed nor new features which might not make it to ALPHA, why not stock up on used ALPHAs, enough to last you forever. I have. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:17:54 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Message-ID: In article , "FredK" writes: > Fortunately, lots of people are buying them. Intel and HP have committed to > Itanium long term. HP-UX, VMS and NSK are committed to Itanium. MS and > Windows are committed to it. We have a strong Linux program for Integrity. Not to doubt you for a moment, Fred, but it IS difficult to explain how that commitment differs from commitments to ALPHA which were not realised. When I started out with VMS, 15 years ago, people said there is no future in that. I now have a VMS job, making more money than those nay-sayers are making now. I personally plan to stay with VMS at home until I die (perhaps even longer) and probably have enough spare hardware to realise this. Personally, I think that VMS will be around in a form which is usable for me for as long as I need it (which, sadly, might not be true for all compilers). For many folks, it's like my experience at CeBit (largest computer fair in the world) back around 1995 or so. Official Digital representatives there said stuff like "this isn't VMS; this is high-end stuff; this is unix" (referring to a simulation/game running on some ALPHAservers) and said that "VMS isn't being developed anymore within DEC". I mentioned that in this newsgroup and someone from DEC actually rang me up and apologised. I accepted the apology and am still working with VMS, but how many people have DIGITAL EMPLOYEES (not to mention Compaq or HP employees) turned away from VMS through comments like this? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:29:22 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > When I started out with VMS, 15 years ago, people said there is no > future in that. I now have a VMS job, making more money than those > nay-sayers are making now. I personally plan to stay with VMS at home > until I die (perhaps even longer) so you plan to be buried within your alpha servers ? > and probably have enough spare > hardware to realise this. > > Personally, I think that VMS will be around in a form which is usable > for me for as long as I need it (which, sadly, might not be true for all > compilers). not to play devil's advocate: what do you @ home once the hobbyist license program terminates ? Use licenses "borrowed" from work ? Time warp your machines back when the licenses still were valid ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:50:03 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Message-ID: In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > > When I started out with VMS, 15 years ago, people said there is no > > future in that. I now have a VMS job, making more money than those > > nay-sayers are making now. I personally plan to stay with VMS at home > > until I die (perhaps even longer) > > so you plan to be buried within your alpha servers ? Why bury them when they're still running and I'm gone? Seriously, I'm sure the wife and children would continue using them. Perhaps I should bury my last will and testament somewhere within the systems such that only those with sufficient VMS knowledge will be able to find out what they're to inherit. > > Personally, I think that VMS will be around in a form which is usable > > for me for as long as I need it (which, sadly, might not be true for all > > compilers). > > not to play devil's advocate: what do you @ home once the > hobbyist license program terminates ? Use licenses "borrowed" > from work ? Time warp your machines back when the licenses still > were valid ? I don't expect the hobbyist license programme to terminate. I actually have a valid commercial license (which I bought with the only machine which I bought new) and some others which, presumably, would become legally mine after paying a transfer fee. So, even in the worst case, I'm not stuck. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:35:57 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Message-ID: -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply > [mailto:helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de] > Sent: August 13, 2007 2:18 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool > > In article , "FredK" > writes: > > > Fortunately, lots of people are buying them. Intel and HP have > committed to > > Itanium long term. HP-UX, VMS and NSK are committed to Itanium. MS > and > > Windows are committed to it. We have a strong Linux program for > Integrity. > > Not to doubt you for a moment, Fred, but it IS difficult to explain how > that commitment differs from commitments to ALPHA which were not > realised. > > When I started out with VMS, 15 years ago, people said there is no > future in that. I now have a VMS job, making more money than those > nay-sayers are making now. I personally plan to stay with VMS at home > until I die (perhaps even longer) and probably have enough spare > hardware to realise this. > > Personally, I think that VMS will be around in a form which is usable > for me for as long as I need it (which, sadly, might not be true for > all > compilers). > > For many folks, it's like my experience at CeBit (largest computer fair > in the world) back around 1995 or so. Official Digital representatives > there said stuff like "this isn't VMS; this is high-end stuff; this is > unix" (referring to a simulation/game running on some ALPHAservers) and > said that "VMS isn't being developed anymore within DEC". I mentioned > that in this newsgroup and someone from DEC actually rang me up and > apologised. I accepted the apology and am still working with VMS, but > how many people have DIGITAL EMPLOYEES (not to mention Compaq or HP > employees) turned away from VMS through comments like this? Phillip - I am not saying this did not occur as I also know of incidents like this, b= ut lets face it - when you are dealing with large companies, unless you ask= for an official response in writing, depending on which BU the person you = are talking to belongs to, you will get a slightly different view of the un= iverse. Same goes for IBM, Sun and even the major ISV's like Microsoft, Oracle etc.= Remember when the Oracle field answer to which platform was almost always = Solaris? Big change now as they typically recommend moving from Solaris to = Linux. Remember when the Senior VP of IBM software publicly stated IBM was = fine with moving its AIX users to Linux? [that's a whole different discussi= on] http://news.com.com/2100-1001-982512.html?tag=3Dfd_lede2_hed Does that make it official direction just because someone in that company s= tated it on a show floor? Of course not. As Fred stated, lots of companies are buying Integrity because the bottom l= ine is that the 3 year maint savings alone is often enough to pay the migra= tion and porting costs. This also allows the Cust to take advantage of newe= r features of OpenVMS that will not be available on Alpha or VAX e.g. Samba= and other features highlighted in the release notes as Integrity only. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:11:39 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: RE: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Message-ID: In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > I am not saying this did not occur as I also know of incidents like this, b= > ut lets face it - when you are dealing with large companies, unless you ask= > for an official response in writing, depending on which BU the person you = > are talking to belongs to, you will get a slightly different view of the un= > iverse. True, but someone from DEC telling me that VMS is dead, in 1995? That's more than a "slightly different view". > Does that make it official direction just because someone in that company s= > tated it on a show floor? > > Of course not. No, and I didn't believe it. I'm just saying that it's not good for that business. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 2007 15:33:43 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Alpha/Integrity Dead Pool Message-ID: In article , "FredK" writes: > > Fortunately, lots of people are buying them. Intel and HP have committed to > Itanium long term. HP-UX, VMS and NSK are committed to Itanium. MS and > Windows are committed to it. We have a strong Linux program for Integrity. A commitment from MS isn't worth the Word document it's written in. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:05:33 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Alpha/Integrity versions of VMS. Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > And it won't be long before VMS management starts to claim that they are > not seeing demand for new versions of VMS on Alpha (the same claim that > was used to justify killing the promise of a V8.* on VAX.) While you and I would like better VMS on VAX, we aren't paying customers. Most paying customers still on VAX are probably interested in stability (otherwise they wouldn't be still on VAX), so I doubt they are interested. Do you know anyone who would pay the normal license fees for a newer version of VMS on VAX? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:11:12 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Computerworld article Message-ID: <1187046672.008377.324510@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, Just making sure that you have seen the computerworld article about VMS (the url may wrap) http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.docommand=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9030242&source=NLT_OS&nlid=41 Warm Regards as always, Sue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:29:49 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Computerworld article Message-ID: In article <1187046672.008377.324510@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Sue writes: > > >Dear Newsgroup, > >Just making sure that you have seen the computerworld article about >VMS (the url may wrap) > >http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.docommand=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9030242&source=NLT_OS&nlid=41 :( The page you requested cannot be found. Did your URL get hammered when you copied it Sue? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:10:57 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: Computerworld article Message-ID: <7dd80f60708131710w79c39e85n13204a562b22973f@mail.gmail.com> On 8/13/07, VAXman-@sendspamhere.org wrote: > In article <1187046672.008377.324510@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com >, Sue >http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.docommand=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9030242&source=NLT_OS&nlid=41 > > :( > Try Or TinyURL (without preview) Or TinyURL (with preview) Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:19:09 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Computerworld article Message-ID: <1y6wi.86$1E1.62@newsfe12.lga> In article <7dd80f60708131710w79c39e85n13204a562b22973f@mail.gmail.com>, "Ken Robinson" writes: > > >On 8/13/07, VAXman-@sendspamhere.org wrote: >> In article <1187046672.008377.324510@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com >>, Sue >http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.docommand=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9030242&source=NLT_OS&nlid=41 >> >> :( >> > >Try > > >Or TinyURL (without preview) > > >Or TinyURL (with preview) > "As OpenVMS nears 30, users dredge up videos from DEC's heyday" Excellent. Thanks Ken! I have some DEC video tapes... I'll have to have a look see at them. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:29:14 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Re: Computerworld article Message-ID: <1187051354.604877.296330@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 13, 8:10 pm, "Ken Robinson" wrote: > On 8/13/07, VAXm...@sendspamhere.org wrote: > > > In article <1187046672.008377.324...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com > >, Sue >http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.docommand=viewArticleBasi... > > > :( > > Try > > > Or TinyURL (without preview) > > > Or TinyURL (with preview) > > > Ken Thank you Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:29:01 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Computerworld article Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] > Sent: August 13, 2007 7:30 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Computerworld article > > In article <1187046672.008377.324510@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Sue > writes: > > > > > >Dear Newsgroup, > > > >Just making sure that you have seen the computerworld article about > >VMS (the url may wrap) > > > >http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.docommand=3DviewArticleBasic > &articleId=3D9030242&source=3DNLT_OS&nlid=3D41 > > :( > > The page you requested cannot be found. > > Did your URL get hammered when you copied it Sue? > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html Looks like magazine changed the url. ComputerWorld Article - new url: http://tinyurl.com/2aktkl Extract - "As OpenVMS nears 30, users dredge up videos from DEC's heyday Old clips get posted online to mark operating system's upcoming anniversary= " Note - Congrat's to Aaron Sakovich and Patrick Jankowiak who are highlighte= d in the article. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 2007 13:03:50 -0500 From: wb8tyw@qsl.network (John E. Malmberg) Subject: Re: DECServer wiring Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > Planning to use a DECserver to connect the consoles on a mixed cluster, to > which end I will need cable that go from MMJ to DB9. Maybe just best to > use MMJ-MMJ cables and DB9 adapters? > > Now from the FAQ > > In making up an MMJ-DB9 cable, do you know how the two remaining pins Are > wired? I assume they are CTS and RTS. I do not see you connecting up the two signal grounds (3, 4) on the MMJ to the single signal ground (5) on the DB9. A common wiring error is to only connect one of them up. With out that, it may work as long as you have good ground pins on all your power cords to a good common ground. This information should be in the OpenVMS FAQ, just about any version that is less than a few years old. The cts and rts signals are not used with MMJ connectors and should be jumpered together on the DB-9 connector. Depending on your systems, it may work if you are missing that jumper. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:06:55 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: DECServer wiring Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:46:58 -0700, wrote: > > Tom Linden wrote: >> Planning to use a DECserver to connect the consoles on a mixed cluster, >> to >> which end I will need cable that go from MMJ to DB9. Maybe just best to >> use MMJ-MMJ cables and DB9 adapters? >> >> Now from the FAQ >> >> In making up an MMJ-DB9 cable, do you know how the two remaining pins >> Are >> wired? I assume they are CTS and RTS. >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Table 14-5 DEC MMJ Pin-out >> >> Pin_____Description____________________________________ >> >> 1 Data Terminal Ready (DTR) >> 2 Transmit (TXD) >> 3 Transmit Ground (TXD-) >> 4 Receive Ground (RXD-) >> 5 Receive (RXD) >> _________6_______Data_Set_Ready_(DSR)___________________________ >> >> +------------------+ >> | 1 2 3 4 5 6 | >> +------------+ ++ >> +____+ >> >> ** is this the orientation as seen FROM THE RECEPTACLE, i.e., looking >> at >> the end of the cable? >> > > It's probably a stupid question, but... > Does it matter whether it's from the receptacle or the cable if you > get pin 6 nearest to the tab? > Not for an MMJ-MMJ cable, but if you were wanting a DB9 at one end, I suppose it might. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:13:46 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: DECServer wiring Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:03:50 -0700, John E. Malmberg wrote: > In article , > "Tom Linden" writes: >> Planning to use a DECserver to connect the consoles on a mixed cluster, >> to >> which end I will need cable that go from MMJ to DB9. Maybe just best to >> use MMJ-MMJ cables and DB9 adapters? >> >> Now from the FAQ >> >> In making up an MMJ-DB9 cable, do you know how the two remaining pins >> Are >> wired? I assume they are CTS and RTS. > > I do not see you connecting up the two signal grounds (3, 4) on the MMJ > to > the single signal ground (5) on the DB9. A common wiring error is to > only > connect one of them up. Thanks, that answered my question. > > With out that, it may work as long as you have good ground pins on all > your > power cords to a good common ground. > > This information should be in the OpenVMS FAQ, just about any version > that is > less than a few years old. Not exactly, I culled this info from there. > > The cts and rts signals are not used with MMJ connectors and should be > jumpered > together on the DB-9 connector. Depending on your systems, it may work > if you > are missing that jumper. > > -John > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:43:50 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Message-ID: In article <130820070946381392%nospam@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper writes: > I have a pile of old kit waiting to go to the tip. > Phillip Helbig, as he grabbed the best stuff, convinced me I should > mention what's left in case anyone wants it. Thanks again, Elliott! Yes, I did get some nice bits, but I actually left some ALPHAs behind! (What IS this world coming to?!) There are actually quite a few very nice boxes, ideal hobbyist systems. The only reason I didn't take them is that there was limited room in my car and there is limited room in my house. I particularly recommend the VAXstation 4000 systems. These are reasonably fast, small, quiet, use little power, work with SCSI disks and, with the cover removed, it is easy to see where everything is, replace stuff etc. The VLCs are really small and ideal for someone needing experience in configuring satellites, someone who needs a quorum node in a cluster etc. Nice monitors and terminals as well, and all the cables you'll ever need. I believe there are still various manuals and CDs available as well (the latter perhaps interesting to those with no possibility to borrow CDs). Any VMS hobbyist, or anyone wanting to become one, should visit Elliott---with a large car! > All of the machines had enough memory to run VMS with Motif and DECnet. > Some had more. But not a lot. It used to be expensive stuff remember? > First come first served. Take as much or as little as you like. It is > at my house in Hayfield, which is about 15 miles SE of Manchester. UK For free, you get a wonderful drive through the Peak District. This is one of the most beautiful places in all of England. > I need the space by 8-Sep-2007. The dregs will be dumped before then. Hobbyists, get out your maps and find the way to Elliott's house! It would be a real shame to see this truly awesome kit go to waste. > To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$ I think requiring potential takers to know Teco is taking things a bit too far, though! In case anyone can't follow the above, it's a Teco command and the "$" is what the terminal shows when escape (CTRL-[) is entered; put the munged address into a file and fire up edit/teco on it! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:49:32 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Message-ID: <1187034572.326696.261310@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 13, 2:43 pm, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > > Any VMS hobbyist, or anyone wanting to become one, should visit > Elliott---with a large car! > I have a mini-van, but I don't think it would do well out on the Atlantic... coming from Cincinnati, Ohio, USA. :-P John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:54:09 +0100 From: Elliott Roper Subject: Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Message-ID: <130820072054094448%nospam@yrl.co.uk> In article , Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > I think requiring potential takers to know Teco is taking things a bit > too far, though! In case anyone can't follow the above, it's a Teco > command and the "$" is what the terminal shows when escape (CTRL-[) is > entered; put the munged address into a file and fire up edit/teco on it! C'mon Phillip. This is after I gave you a look at the the teco ride-on lawnmower! Everyone who covets a free Vax heap can speak that much teco, or at any rate fake it. I'm reminded of my early days at DEC CSS in Sydney. Back when 780's were new and all. John Jones was the boss, and in his office hung a tall thin photograph of the doorway of an el cheapo appliance store not far down the road in St Leonards (we were in Crows Nest then) It was a sign that read: S T A X of V A X -- To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$ PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:55:23 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas Message-ID: In article <130820072054094448%nospam@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: > In article , Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > reply wrote: > > > > > I think requiring potential takers to know Teco is taking things a bit > > too far, though! In case anyone can't follow the above, it's a Teco > > command and the "$" is what the terminal shows when escape (CTRL-[) is > > entered; put the munged address into a file and fire up edit/teco on it! > > C'mon Phillip. This is after I gave you a look at the the teco ride-on > lawnmower! > Everyone who covets a free Vax heap can speak that much teco, or at any > rate fake it. Eh? I've been on VMS for 21 years, and I've NEVER used TECO. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:55:55 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Message-ID: <1187034955.948990.306230@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On 13 Aug, 06:41, "R.A.Omond" wrote: > etmsr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > I've just tried getting some new license paks from the hobbyist site > > but, although it takes all my details and apparently validates them, > > no licenses have appeared in my email. > > > Anyone got any ideas whether they are having problems? > > Same here. I tried last Thursday and still haven't received anything. > And, typical, just when I really needed to try something out :-( You might want to try it again Roy. I've just got a base license through ok though my layered product request hasn't shown up yet. *shakes head in confused manner!* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:49:39 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses - is the server down? Message-ID: <7L8wi.7449$Ns6.6042@trnddc01> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > On 13 Aug, 06:41, "R.A.Omond" wrote: > >>etmsr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> >> >>>I've just tried getting some new license paks from the hobbyist site >>>but, although it takes all my details and apparently validates them, >>>no licenses have appeared in my email. >> >>>Anyone got any ideas whether they are having problems? >> >>Same here. I tried last Thursday and still haven't received anything. >>And, typical, just when I really needed to try something out :-( > > > You might want to try it again Roy. I've just got a base license > through ok though my layered product request hasn't shown up yet. > *shakes head in confused manner!* > I renewed a whole bunch of hobbyist licenses last Monday (06-Aug-2007) and they all came through within minutes. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:43:15 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <6436c$46c0a63d$cef882e2$29972@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> JF Mezei wrote: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >>> As I mentioned before, based on offline feedback I received awhile >>> ago, oth= ers with different newsreaders seem to have no issues. >> >> As the above shows, they are still being sent quoted-printable when >> there is no need to do so. >> > > And non-microsoft software tends to intelligently use quoted printable > when it must, but splitting lines at word boundaries instead if the > really stupid Microsoft way of just cutting a line at a specific > location. > > > Now, let me say this: It does not reflect very well on a computer > company trying to be in the enterprise business when it cannot get its > employees to adhere to the real standards. One way to help this along is to do a browser test when a client is accessing your web site. If it returns the broswer identity as Internet Explorer then open a splash page and let the user know that they are using a non-standards compatible browser and give them a link to download Mozilla/Firefox or other W3C compliant browsers. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:22:59 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Oldest Alpha for upgrade to Integrity Message-ID: In article , brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes: > While there have been a few VAX models that have been dropped along the way, > no Alpha hardware has been dropped from support. In this context, I'm talking > about models that were properly sold with VMS, not oddball things like the > multia, or the early EV3-based systems. > > I think you are making this task seem much harder than it really is. The Tadpole is another oddball. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:20:14 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: What VMS does RIGHT! Message-ID: In article , John Santos writes: > How about a compiler qualifier that limits the number of errors generated > before it aborts? E.G. /ERROR_LIMIT= FORTRAN /ERROR_LIMIT /[NO]ERROR_LIMIT[=n] D=/ERROR_LIMIT=30 Specifies the maximum number of E-level or F-level compiler errors allowed for a given compilation unit. Error counts are not accumulated across a sequence of compilation units. If you specify /ERROR_LIMIT=n, each compilation unit can have up to n - 1 errors without terminating the compilation. When the error limit is reached within a compilation unit, compilation of that unit is terminated, but compilation of following units continues. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:27:24 -0600 From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: What VMS does RIGHT! Message-ID: <46c0a28d$0$516$815e3792@news.qwest.net> This is a function of the compiler - not VMS. Visual Basic 6 doesn't do this, but MS Visual C 4.2 and later allows 100 errors project wide before aborting the compile. VB 2005 also allows over 100 errors in the project before aborting. The fact that the VMS Fortran compiler gives you an option is nice, but not a function of VMS itself. Mike Ober. "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote in message news:f9q7cu$u66$4@online.de... > In article , John Santos > writes: > >> How about a compiler qualifier that limits the number of errors generated >> before it aborts? E.G. /ERROR_LIMIT= > > FORTRAN > > /ERROR_LIMIT > > /[NO]ERROR_LIMIT[=n] D=/ERROR_LIMIT=30 > > Specifies the maximum number of E-level or F-level compiler errors > allowed for a given compilation unit. > > Error counts are not accumulated across a sequence of compilation > units. If you specify /ERROR_LIMIT=n, each compilation unit can > have up to n - 1 errors without terminating the compilation. When > the error limit is reached within a compilation unit, compilation > of that unit is terminated, but compilation of following units > continues. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:15:18 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: Keith Parris wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: >> Looks like it would take a rather large (and patient) backing and >> some creative middle-ware acquisitions for that company to ever see >> black ink. > > If VMS were to be spun off, it would have to include both the OpenVMS > hardware and software business as well as the OpenVMS Services > business. Both portions would be very profitable, but the Services > revenues would be about 3-4 times that of the HW/SW side. But it > would all add up to a very-profitable business of about $1B annual > revenues. Keith, You probably spoke 'out of school' in mentioning this number, but if you truly mean that the sum total of the VMS business is currently $1B then everything we've collectively been saying here in c.o.v since 2001 (if not before) has been validated. The quoted revenue for the sum total VMS business (hw, sw, services attributable to VMS) at/near the time of the ChumpHaq merger announcement was $4B per annum. As I recollect, this was stated by one of the twins - Marcello or Gorham, and may have been mentioned in one of the Customer Times newsletters btw. How many Gorhams is the installed base now? 411000n , where 0.0>n<1.0 rcum.uni-mb.si/vms/times/openvmstimes01_04_special.pdf www.theinquirer.net/?article=9705 www.decvax.org/VAXtotheFuture.PDF www.xbitlabs.com/discussion/2013.html www.itbusiness.ca/it/client/en/CDN/News.asp?id=39484 -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:21:12 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net] >> Sent: August 10, 2007 11:38 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal >> champion >> >> On Aug 10, 8:24 am, yyyc186 wrote: >>> [attribution not quoted by yyyc186] >>>> Probably depends on your definition of cluster. But let's assume >>>> the VMS definition. This has been asked before but never answered. >>>> Forgetting Hobbyist systems where they cluster for the sake of >>>> clustering, what percentage of real, production VMS systems are >>>> clusters as opposed to stand alone systems? Why would Unix bother >>>> implementing something that has little if any need? When a Beowulf >>>> style cluster became needed, it was written (and actually, that's >> not >>>> the only kind available on Unix.) And then we also had Amoeba >> Clusters, >>>> which, if nothing else, showed how little interest there really was >>>> in clustering beyond looking at it from an academic standpoint. >>> >>> I've spent 20 years in this field on OpenVMS and other platforms. >>> I've never been to an OpenVMS shop for any company grossing >$2mil >>> in sales which wasn't fully using a cluster. Most went all the way >> using >>> ACMS to distribute transactions across the entire cluster. >> >> I think >$2mil gross is at *least* a factor of 10 too low, unless you >> mean net rather than gross. It does depend on the industry and >> application, though. A $2mil company with a high profit margin that >> depends on 24/7 operation could justify it. That company would also >> be expecting fast growth and would not plan to remain a $2mil >> company for long. This isn't the typical $2 to $10mil company, >> however. VMS clustering is expensive. >> >> Apparently even HP can't justify OpenVMS clustering their own 24/7 >> services; like the ITRC forum, for example. (just couldn't resist >> that little dig) > > > Here are just a few recent examples of OpenVMS clustering by what > would be > considered SMB companies: > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-7388EEE.pdf (full) > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/erc/library/GetPage.aspx?pageid=496911 > (condensed) > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5983-2346EN.pdf > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-3672ENE.pdf > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/Downloads/4AA0-8708EEW.pdf > > > Imagine a company wanting rock solid, very high stable applications > with ultra-high security that does not require 5-20 security patches > per month - what a novel idea! Imagine (tm) if there was a vendor who actually *advertised* and actively marketed such concepts. Imagine(tm) - (c) 2007, The We Distain Anything NIH Company, Inc. > > :-) > > Regards > > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:24:51 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <46b35$46c0a1ec$cef882e2$19482@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> Sue wrote: > On Aug 7, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> I thought that wasSue! >> >> Suemay be our champion and the only one within HP able to give us any >> hope, but she still isn't "HP" and still isn't allowed to send out a >> press release to the news wires, and still not able to do real >> marketing outside the installed base. Her hands are tied by >> Stallard/Livermore. > > I am not the only one for darn sure. I just happen to be be visable in > some places and I happen to really like to talk about VMS, even to > people that don't want to hear it. Speaking of, I am working on the > 30th Anniversary presentation. There is so much cool information. I > do not really want to include what was in the earlier ones. But VMS > has really done some amazing things in its life. No wonder we can do > what we do. > > sorry got a little excited there. It's good that at least one person @ HP gets excited about VMS. Maybe with the upcoming flu season you could make it contagious within HP? Excitement Invented Here - (c) 2007, Sue & John Smith -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:27:59 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <1187029679.761143.82910@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 13, 7:14 am, Michael Kraemer wrote: > JF Mezei schrieb: > > > It is just a bunch of idiots who priced VMS out of the workstation > > market and then looking at statistics, decided that nobody wanted VMS > > for workstations and stopped developping the very apps that could have > > made VMS grow. > > When you look at how efficient VMS is compared to Windows (in terms of > > memory usage, process control etc), VMS would make a great workstation > > OS had the owners not decided to stop developping apps on VMS. > > VMS lost the workstation game not against Windows, > but against the RISC Unices. This was as early as 1990, > when VAXstations were a lot more expensive but less powerful > than their RISC counterparts. Yep. DEC let Sun become what it is today by not closing that door. The VAXstation CAD/CAM systems my customers had back then were *all* replaced with cheaper and faster Sun's. And from there Sun grew. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:39:57 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <1187033997.643055.307020@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 12, 9:14 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphil...@netscape.net] > > Sent: August 10, 2007 11:38 AM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal > > champion > > > On Aug 10, 8:24 am, yyyc186 wrote: > > >[attribution not quoted by yyyc186] > > > > Probably depends on your definition of cluster. But let's assume > > > > the VMS definition. This has been asked before but never answered. > > > > Forgetting Hobbyist systems where they cluster for the sake of > > > > clustering, what percentage of real, production VMS systems are > > > > clusters as opposed to stand alone systems? Why would Unix bother > > > > implementing something that has little if any need? When a Beowulf > > > > style cluster became needed, it was written (and actually, that's > > not > > > > the only kind available on Unix.) And then we also had Amoeba > > Clusters, > > > > which, if nothing else, showed how little interest there really was > > > > in clustering beyond looking at it from an academic standpoint. > > > > I've spent 20 years in this field on OpenVMS and other platforms. > > > I've never been to an OpenVMS shop for any company grossing >$2mil in > > > sales which wasn't fully using a cluster. Most went all the way > > using > > > ACMS to distribute transactions across the entire cluster. > > > I think >$2mil gross is at *least* a factor of 10 too low, unless you > > mean net rather than gross. It does depend on the industry and > > application, though. A $2mil company with a high profit margin that > > depends on 24/7 operation could justify it. That company would also be > > expecting fast growth and would not plan to remain a $2mil company for > > long. This isn't the typical $2 to $10mil company, however. VMS > > clustering is expensive. > > > Apparently even HP can't justify OpenVMS clustering their own 24/7 > > services; like the ITRC forum, for example. (just couldn't resist that > > little dig) > > Here are just a few recent examples of OpenVMS clustering by what would be > considered SMB companies: > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-7388EEE.pdf(full)http://h71028.www7.hp.com/erc/library/GetPage.aspx?pageid=496911(condensed) > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5983-2346EN.pdf > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-3672ENE.pdf > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/Downloads/4AA0-8708EEW.pdf > > Imagine a company wanting rock solid, very high stable applications with ultra-high security that does not require 5-20 security patches per month - what a novel idea! > > :-) Without seeing the financials (which are usually not easy to find for private companies), those don't look like "$2 mil.revenue/year" operations. That's what we were discussing. AFA clustering, I don't think anyone is arguing the benefits; just the cost. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:58:57 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net] > Sent: August 13, 2007 3:40 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal > champion [snip] > > > > Here are just a few recent examples of OpenVMS clustering by what > would be > > considered SMB companies: > > > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0- > 7388EEE.pdf(full)http://h71028.www7.hp.com/erc/library/GetPage.aspx?pag > eid=3D496911(condensed) > > > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5983-2346EN.pdf > > > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-3672ENE.pdf > > > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/Downloads/4AA0-8708EEW.pdf > > > > Imagine a company wanting rock solid, very high stable applications > with ultra-high security that does not require 5-20 security patches > per month - what a novel idea! > > > > :-) > > Without seeing the financials (which are usually not easy to find for > private companies), those don't look like "$2 mil.revenue/year" > operations. That's what we were discussing. > > AFA clustering, I don't think anyone is arguing the benefits; just the > cost. A few of the examples provided were clustered rx2620's .. Low end servers with clustering which to me says SMB type environment. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:01:36 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:15:18 -0700, John Smith wrote: > The quoted revenue for the sum total VMS business (hw, sw, services > attributable to VMS) at/near the time of the ChumpHaq merger announcement > was $4B per annum. As I recollect, this was stated by one of the twins - > Marcello or Gorham, and may have been mentioned in one of the Customer > Times > newsletters I was given that same number just over two years ago from an HP insider. My guess is that it has been relatively constant since the merger. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:23:49 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <1187036629.871836.47730@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 13, 2:58 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphil...@netscape.net] > > Sent: August 13, 2007 3:40 PM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal > > champion > > [snip] > > > > > > > > Here are just a few recent examples of OpenVMS clustering by what > > would be > > > considered SMB companies: > > > >http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0- > > 7388EEE.pdf(full)http://h71028.www7.hp.com/erc/library/GetPage.aspx?pag > > eid=496911(condensed) > > > >http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5983-2346EN.pdf > > > >http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-3672ENE.pdf > > > >http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/Downloads/4AA0-8708EEW.pdf > > > > Imagine a company wanting rock solid, very high stable applications > > with ultra-high security that does not require 5-20 security patches > > per month - what a novel idea! > > > > :-) > > > Without seeing the financials (which are usually not easy to find for > > private companies), those don't look like "$2 mil.revenue/year" > > operations. That's what we were discussing. > > > AFA clustering, I don't think anyone is arguing the benefits; just the > > cost. > > A few of the examples provided were clustered rx2620's .. > > Low end servers with clustering which to me says SMB type environment. > As it does to me. But SMB covers a wide revenue range and I guess you'll just have to read the discussion to understand why the examples you gave probably don't apply. I will say that revenue isn't the only gauge to use when determining the need for clustering. Just as number of servers and load per isn't the only gauge to use for consolidation; If it were, then you'd recommend "against" clustering of any sort. Neither clusters nor consolidation are universal solutions. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:52:56 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <46C12718.8020200@comcast.net> Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 13, 7:14 am, Michael Kraemer wrote: > >>JF Mezei schrieb: >> >> >>>It is just a bunch of idiots who priced VMS out of the workstation >>>market and then looking at statistics, decided that nobody wanted VMS >>>for workstations and stopped developping the very apps that could have >>>made VMS grow. >>>When you look at how efficient VMS is compared to Windows (in terms of >>>memory usage, process control etc), VMS would make a great workstation >>>OS had the owners not decided to stop developping apps on VMS. >> >>VMS lost the workstation game not against Windows, >>but against the RISC Unices. This was as early as 1990, >>when VAXstations were a lot more expensive but less powerful >>than their RISC counterparts. > > > Yep. DEC let Sun become what it is today by not closing that door. The > VAXstation CAD/CAM systems my customers had back then were *all* > replaced with cheaper and faster Sun's. And from there Sun grew. > > Yup! Faster and cheaper beats better every time!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:09:08 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/13/07 22:52, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: [snip] >> >> Yep. DEC let Sun become what it is today by not closing that door. The >> VAXstation CAD/CAM systems my customers had back then were *all* >> replaced with cheaper and faster Sun's. And from there Sun grew. >> >> > > Yup! Faster and cheaper beats better every time!!! There are lots of people who think that fast and cheap *is* better. "Good enough" that's 3x as fast and 1/4 the cost is usually more than adequate to overcome the expensive perfection that is VMS. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:01:54 -0700 From: "Andy Bustamante" Subject: Re: X Window Servers Message-ID: I consulted on a contract where management didn't want to invest in X-server licensing as well. We used the Knoppix (Linux stand alone boot CD) to handle X sessions. -- Andy Bustamante (Remove the ascii 95's to mail a reply) "Lord Derigan" wrote in message news:1186684006.675098.274930@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > Are there any free PC-based X servers that can can be used to create > windows on VMS and display them on a PC? The company I work for has > been using Himmingbird eXceed for a long time but will not purchase > additional licenses. I have someone who needs windowed access to our > VMS systems. I tried Cygwin, but I couldn't get it working. Any > other suggestions? > -- > Brian Tillman > ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.443 ************************