INFO-VAX Sun, 29 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 411 Contents: Re: broken monitor, well sort of ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! RE: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: Hung TCPware or what? Re: itanium memory/page sizes Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th RE: July the 4th Re: July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:37:24 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: broken monitor, well sort of Message-ID: <46AB9AF4.8E1D0278@spam.comcast.net> kiwi-red wrote: > > Thanks guys, > > I have asked my local support guy, Sek, in oz and he is looking at it. > I assume we are supported, as we keep paying the bills ;-) yeah - that's what we thought, also - until we called for phone support and couldn't understand the person on the other end. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:24:52 GMT From: John Santos Subject: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: Long story made longer... Customer bought a pair of used ES40's for in-cabinet upgrades of a pair of AlphaServer 4100's. They're having scheduling difficulties, so they want to get the new equipment tested before the 30-day warrantee from the dealer expires next week. They also got a pair of MSA1000's, about 40 72GB disks, a pair of fiber switches and a pair of DS-KGPSA-DA fiber host interfaces for each ES40, which they would also like to test. They have an old, unused AlphaServer 4100 (VMS 7.3-2) that they wanted to use as a testbed. (Production systems are also 7.3-2.) Everything patched through UPDATE V11 (we could install UPDATE V12 if needed, but at another site they've been running with MSA's and, until recently, much older patch levels, without any obvious problems.) I'm trying to diagnose this from 3000 miles away, and I'm on vacation, supposedly, starting today. Anyway, I walked the customer through configuring the MSA's, temporarily, as a pair of 1.5TB RAID5 sets partitioned into 4 units of 750GB each. They installed 2 of the 4 HBA's in the AS4100, which sees them, but doesn't see the MSAs and produces an error on each FGA device at boot time. From some HSG80 docs I found at HP, it looks like the KGPSA-DA's aren't supported on AS4100's. Does anyone know for sure? At the dead sergeant, the AS4100 says the HBA's have an NVRAM formatting problem, and wwidmgr doesn't see any of the units. The ES40's power up and look okay at the console, and when they cabled the MSAs into one of them, ">>> show device" and wwidmgr show all 4 of the units, so I think that part's okay. But the ES40's (neither of them) will boot. They each have a KZPCM (dual SCSI plus Ethernet) in them, and using a spare external storageworks shelf, they've tried booting a copy of the AS4100's system disk, the actual AS4100 system disk, and on the internal IDE CD drive, the VMS V7.3-1 distribution CD (they couldn't find V7.3-2, didn't look very hard), and the V6.x or V7.x (not sure what version they were trying, but something plenty recent enough to include ES40's) of the Alpha firmware CD. All 8 cases say something like "transferring to bootstrap" and then just hang. (Waited up to 20 minutes.) It sounds like they think they are successfully loading the boot from the disk (APB.EXE?) and then are getting stuck. They have to press the halt button to get the >>> back. So what stupid misconfiguration could be causing this? Or are both ES40's identically broken? (Every console variable I could think of seems to be okay. console is set to "serial". os_type is "OpenVMS". Boot flags, etc. seem to be correct. Memory seems to be okay (passes power-on self-test.) About 2 weeks ago, they upgraded another ES40 at another site (in-box upgrade of CPUs from 667MHz to 833MHz), added a new pair of MSA1000's to an existing pair, and had some weird CPU problems before they actually started, and HP had to reload the SROM from a floppy (fail-safe loader?) System had been up for many months, rebooted fine, but when HP tried a power-down and reboot, it broke. (This was before they touched anything.) The customer had HP do that upgrade; I have no idea why they decided to do this one themselves. Anyway, having the experienced HP guys onsite to do it dodged a major disaster in that case! Is this a common ES40 problem? Do we need to do the same thing to both the new ones? Could there be something (backplane jumper, etc.) putting them in "test mode" that just needs to be cleared or removed or reset? Some dumb configuration problem with the console terminal they are attempting to use (some kind of Wyse supposed VT320 emulator that they have zillions of?) They did report seeing some backwards question marks, which I would interpret as a parity or framing or character size problem, but it seems to be working okay in console mode. There were some console variables that seemed to reflect terminal characteristics, but they were 9600 baud, 8-bit, no parity, no modem control, I.e. pretty standard. If they could get one of the ES40's to boot, we could run some disk bashing tests on the MSA's before the warrantee expires. (Apparently their current H/W maint. vendor, not HP, won't put the new hardware under their maintenance agreement until it is demonstrated to be installed and working, and the clock is ticking on the seller's warrantee. Arggh!) (And why didn't they do this two or three weeks ago, before my vacation??) I'll try to check in over the next week, supposedly the vacation house (holiday house as my Aussie niece calls it) has WiFi... -- John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:48:27 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: In article , John Santos wrote: ... > So what stupid misconfiguration could be causing this? Or > are both ES40's identically broken? > > (Every console variable I could think of seems to be okay. > console is set to "serial". os_type is "OpenVMS". Boot > flags, etc. seem to be correct. Memory seems to be okay > (passes power-on self-test.) So the CONSOLE environment variable is SERIAL. Are you sure they are connected to the serial console port? Newer alphas (and I think this includes the ES40) have multiple serial ports. The console FW can talk to any of them. But only one of them is the "real" console that VMS will use. If there is another serial port on the system, have them try it. Maybe VMS is running perfectly well, and they just can't see the output. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 07 16:58:56 EDT From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: In article , John Santos writes: > Long story made longer... > > Customer bought a pair of used ES40's for in-cabinet upgrades of a > pair of AlphaServer 4100's. They're having scheduling difficulties, so > they want to get the new equipment tested before the 30-day warrantee > from the dealer expires next week. > > They also got a pair of MSA1000's, about 40 72GB disks, a pair of > fiber switches and a pair of DS-KGPSA-DA fiber host interfaces for > each ES40, which they would also like to test. > > They have an old, unused AlphaServer 4100 (VMS 7.3-2) that they > wanted to use as a testbed. (Production systems are also 7.3-2.) > Everything patched through UPDATE V11 (we could install UPDATE V12 > if needed, but at another site they've been running with MSA's > and, until recently, much older patch levels, without any obvious > problems.) > > I'm trying to diagnose this from 3000 miles away, and I'm on > vacation, supposedly, starting today. > > Anyway, I walked the customer through configuring the MSA's, > temporarily, as a pair of 1.5TB RAID5 sets partitioned into > 4 units of 750GB each. They installed 2 of the 4 HBA's in > the AS4100, which sees them, but doesn't see the MSAs and > produces an error on each FGA device at boot time. From > some HSG80 docs I found at HP, it looks like the KGPSA-DA's > aren't supported on AS4100's. Does anyone know for sure? > At the dead sergeant, the AS4100 says the HBA's have an > NVRAM formatting problem, and wwidmgr doesn't see any of > the units. I don't know if KGPSA-DA's are supported, but the NVRAM formatting message means the HBA NVRAM needs to be initialized. Does wwidmgr see them (i.e., does "-show adapter" list them)? If so, the wwidmgr command "-set adapter -item nn" (where nn is an item number displayed by the "-show adapter" command) should format the NVRAM. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:18:09 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: In article , cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu says... > In article , John Santos writes: > > Long story made longer... > > > > Customer bought a pair of used ES40's for in-cabinet upgrades of a > > pair of AlphaServer 4100's. They're having scheduling difficulties, so > > they want to get the new equipment tested before the 30-day warrantee > > from the dealer expires next week. > > > > They also got a pair of MSA1000's, about 40 72GB disks, a pair of > > fiber switches and a pair of DS-KGPSA-DA fiber host interfaces for > > each ES40, which they would also like to test. > > > > They have an old, unused AlphaServer 4100 (VMS 7.3-2) that they > > wanted to use as a testbed. (Production systems are also 7.3-2.) > > Everything patched through UPDATE V11 (we could install UPDATE V12 > > if needed, but at another site they've been running with MSA's > > and, until recently, much older patch levels, without any obvious > > problems.) > > > > I'm trying to diagnose this from 3000 miles away, and I'm on > > vacation, supposedly, starting today. > > > > Anyway, I walked the customer through configuring the MSA's, > > temporarily, as a pair of 1.5TB RAID5 sets partitioned into > > 4 units of 750GB each. They installed 2 of the 4 HBA's in > > the AS4100, which sees them, but doesn't see the MSAs and > > produces an error on each FGA device at boot time. From > > some HSG80 docs I found at HP, it looks like the KGPSA-DA's > > aren't supported on AS4100's. Does anyone know for sure? > > At the dead sergeant, the AS4100 says the HBA's have an > > NVRAM formatting problem, and wwidmgr doesn't see any of > > the units. > > I don't know if KGPSA-DA's are supported, but the NVRAM formatting > message means the HBA NVRAM needs to be initialized. Does wwidmgr > see them (i.e., does "-show adapter" list them)? If so, the > wwidmgr command "-set adapter -item nn" (where nn is an item number > displayed by the "-show adapter" command) should format the NVRAM. Thanks, George. We tried this (on the AS4100), didn't seem to help. wwidmgr did list them, but with an NVRAM message for each. No such messages on the ES40. wwidmgr -set adapter -item 9999 (which IIUC means format the NVRAM on all the adapters), gave a message about an MBX problem. Hard to get the exact text, the cust was talking on a speaker phone in a very noisy computer room. I don't *think* the customer moved any of the "defective" KGPSA's back to the ES40's, but he may have. He is planning to do this on Monday. > > > George Cook > WVNET > -- John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:31:42 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: In article , rdeininger@mindspring.dot.com says... > In article , > John Santos wrote: > > ... > > > So what stupid misconfiguration could be causing this? Or > > are both ES40's identically broken? > > > > (Every console variable I could think of seems to be okay. > > console is set to "serial". os_type is "OpenVMS". Boot > > flags, etc. seem to be correct. Memory seems to be okay > > (passes power-on self-test.) > > So the CONSOLE environment variable is SERIAL. Are you sure they are > connected to the serial console port? Yes, I think so. There are two DB9 connectors on the back of each ES40. They tried one and can talk to the SRM console (until it all goes away when they try to boot.) When they plug their terminal into the other DB9, they don't get any response. > > Newer alphas (and I think this includes the ES40) have multiple serial > ports. The console FW can talk to any of them. But only one of them is > the "real" console that VMS will use. > > If there is another serial port on the system, have them try it. Maybe > VMS is running perfectly well, and they just can't see the output. > That's possible... However, it wasn't running "perfectly well", since they had plugged the AS4100's Ethernet cable into it, and it doesn't respond to pings, SET HOST or LAT. It could be that the port is at the wrong speed. EWA0_MODE was set to "twisted-pair" and the AS4100 was "FastFD" and the Cisco switch may be locked down at 100MB Full Duplex. However, I told them to change EWA0_MODE to FastFD, and they claim they did this, though they were getting very tetchy by this point (and so was I, since I was missing my Birthday dinner), so they might have been lying, or mistyped the command and it didn't take effect. Once VMS was up, shouldn't the "wrong" DB9 port come up as TTA0: and respond to a couple of 's with a USERNAME: prompt? And if they were plugged into the "wrong" DB9, shouldn't they have gotten some response on the "right" one? (Either in console mode, or after VMS came up and it turned into OPA0:?) > -- Robert > -- John ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 00:09:13 GMT From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: John Santos wrote: > > Yes, I think so. There are two DB9 connectors on the back of > each ES40. They tried one and can talk to the SRM console > (until it all goes away when they try to boot.) When they plug > their terminal into the other DB9, they don't get any response. > The "real" console on the ES40 is neither of these, it's an MMJ that is located above those ports. > However, it wasn't running "perfectly well", since they had plugged > the AS4100's Ethernet cable into it, and it doesn't respond to pings, > SET HOST or LAT. It could be that the port is at the wrong speed. It could be that VMS has stopped in the boot process to ask you to set the clock (this prompt coming out on the MMJ connector ) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:51:57 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: <46ABF2BD.9DAAD64B@spam.comcast.net> John Santos wrote: > > In article , cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu says... > > In article , John Santos writes: > > > Long story made longer... > > > > > > Customer bought a pair of used ES40's for in-cabinet upgrades of a > > > pair of AlphaServer 4100's. They're having scheduling difficulties, so > > > they want to get the new equipment tested before the 30-day warrantee > > > from the dealer expires next week. > > > > > > They also got a pair of MSA1000's, about 40 72GB disks, a pair of > > > fiber switches and a pair of DS-KGPSA-DA fiber host interfaces for > > > each ES40, which they would also like to test. > > > > > > They have an old, unused AlphaServer 4100 (VMS 7.3-2) that they > > > wanted to use as a testbed. (Production systems are also 7.3-2.) > > > Everything patched through UPDATE V11 (we could install UPDATE V12 > > > if needed, but at another site they've been running with MSA's > > > and, until recently, much older patch levels, without any obvious > > > problems.) > > > > > > I'm trying to diagnose this from 3000 miles away, and I'm on > > > vacation, supposedly, starting today. > > > > > > Anyway, I walked the customer through configuring the MSA's, > > > temporarily, as a pair of 1.5TB RAID5 sets partitioned into > > > 4 units of 750GB each. They installed 2 of the 4 HBA's in > > > the AS4100, which sees them, but doesn't see the MSAs and > > > produces an error on each FGA device at boot time. From > > > some HSG80 docs I found at HP, it looks like the KGPSA-DA's > > > aren't supported on AS4100's. Does anyone know for sure? > > > At the dead sergeant, the AS4100 says the HBA's have an > > > NVRAM formatting problem, and wwidmgr doesn't see any of > > > the units. > > > > I don't know if KGPSA-DA's are supported, but the NVRAM formatting > > message means the HBA NVRAM needs to be initialized. Does wwidmgr > > see them (i.e., does "-show adapter" list them)? If so, the > > wwidmgr command "-set adapter -item nn" (where nn is an item number > > displayed by the "-show adapter" command) should format the NVRAM. > > Thanks, George. We tried this (on the AS4100), didn't seem to help. > > wwidmgr did list them, but with an NVRAM message for each. No such > messages on the ES40. wwidmgr -set adapter -item 9999 (which IIUC > means format the NVRAM on all the adapters), gave a message about > an MBX problem. Hard to get the exact text, the cust was talking on > a speaker phone in a very noisy computer room. > > I don't *think* the customer moved any of the "defective" KGPSA's > back to the ES40's, but he may have. He is planning to do this > on Monday. Trying to recall past discussions here... AFAIK, 4100s have very limited (or no) FC support. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 03:30:31 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Santos [mailto:john.santos@post.harvard.edu] > Sent: July 28, 2007 4:25 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: ES40's won't boot! > > Long story made longer... > > Customer bought a pair of used ES40's for in-cabinet upgrades of a > pair of AlphaServer 4100's. They're having scheduling > difficulties, so > they want to get the new equipment tested before the 30-day > warrantee > from the dealer expires next week. > > They also got a pair of MSA1000's, about 40 72GB disks, a pair of > fiber switches and a pair of DS-KGPSA-DA fiber host interfaces for > each ES40, which they would also like to test. > > They have an old, unused AlphaServer 4100 (VMS 7.3-2) that they > wanted to use as a testbed. (Production systems are also 7.3-2.) > Everything patched through UPDATE V11 (we could install UPDATE V12 > if needed, but at another site they've been running with MSA's > and, until recently, much older patch levels, without any obvious > problems.) > > I'm trying to diagnose this from 3000 miles away, and I'm on > vacation, supposedly, starting today. > > Anyway, I walked the customer through configuring the MSA's, > temporarily, as a pair of 1.5TB RAID5 sets partitioned into > 4 units of 750GB each. They installed 2 of the 4 HBA's in > the AS4100, which sees them, but doesn't see the MSAs and > produces an error on each FGA device at boot time. From > some HSG80 docs I found at HP, it looks like the KGPSA-DA's > aren't supported on AS4100's. Does anyone know for sure? > At the dead sergeant, the AS4100 says the HBA's have an > NVRAM formatting problem, and wwidmgr doesn't see any of > the units. > Reference: http://tinyurl.com/3ac6fo (scroll down to known issue - NVRAM failure in V5= 6 console and earlier) > The ES40's power up and look okay at the console, and when > they cabled the MSAs into one of them, ">>> show device" > and wwidmgr show all 4 of the units, so I think that part's okay. > > But the ES40's (neither of them) will boot. They each > have a KZPCM (dual SCSI plus Ethernet) in them, and using > a spare external storageworks shelf, they've tried booting > a copy of the AS4100's system disk, the actual AS4100 > system disk, and on the internal IDE CD drive, the > VMS V7.3-1 distribution CD (they couldn't find V7.3-2, > didn't look very hard), and the V6.x or V7.x (not sure what > version they were trying, but something plenty recent enough > to include ES40's) of the Alpha firmware CD. > > All 8 cases say something like "transferring to bootstrap" > and then just hang. (Waited up to 20 minutes.) It sounds > like they think they are successfully loading the boot > from the disk (APB.EXE?) and then are getting stuck. They > have to press the halt button to get the >>> back. > > So what stupid misconfiguration could be causing this? Or > are both ES40's identically broken? > > (Every console variable I could think of seems to be okay. > console is set to "serial". os_type is "OpenVMS". Boot > flags, etc. seem to be correct. Memory seems to be okay > (passes power-on self-test.) > > About 2 weeks ago, they upgraded another ES40 at another > site (in-box upgrade of CPUs from 667MHz to 833MHz), added > a new pair of MSA1000's to an existing pair, and had some > weird CPU problems before they actually started, and HP > had to reload the SROM from a floppy (fail-safe loader?) > System had been up for many months, rebooted fine, but > when HP tried a power-down and reboot, it broke. (This was > before they touched anything.) The customer had HP do that > upgrade; I have no idea why they decided to do this one > themselves. Anyway, having the experienced HP guys onsite > to do it dodged a major disaster in that case! Is this > a common ES40 problem? Do we need to do the same thing > to both the new ones? > > > Could there be something (backplane jumper, etc.) putting > them in "test mode" that just needs to be cleared or removed > or reset? > > > Some dumb configuration problem with the console terminal > they are attempting to use (some kind of Wyse supposed > VT320 emulator that they have zillions of?) They did > report seeing some backwards question marks, which I would > interpret as a parity or framing or character size problem, > but it seems to be working okay in console mode. There > were some console variables that seemed to reflect terminal > characteristics, but they were 9600 baud, 8-bit, no parity, > no modem control, I.e. pretty standard. > > > If they could get one of the ES40's to boot, we could > run some disk bashing tests on the MSA's before the > warrantee expires. (Apparently their current H/W > maint. vendor, not HP, won't put the new hardware under > their maintenance agreement until it is demonstrated to > be installed and working, and the clock is ticking on > the seller's warrantee. Arggh!) (And why didn't they > do this two or three weeks ago, before my vacation??) > > > I'll try to check in over the next week, supposedly the > vacation house (holiday house as my Aussie niece calls > it) has WiFi... > > > -- > John John, Re: supported options .. good link: http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/products/options.html (click on syste= m in question) http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/options/ases40/ases40_options.html (E= S40 - beware wrap) ES40 supported options: http://tinyurl.com/2mrcat Note - I always like to keep it simple when troubleshooting. Make sure you have V7.3-2 CDrom as I seem to recall an issue with V7.3-1 CD= rom booting on some servers. Don't bother trying to troubleshoot the SAN st= uff until local CDrom booting works. Also, one option is to remove SAN adap= ters to make sure they are not causing some local issue as well (especially= if not sure if the older adapters are supported). What graphics card is installed? Note - there was also an older ES40 HW compatibility fco - suggest get CS t= o verify if this is installed or not. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 04:36:05 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > John Santos wrote: > >> >> Yes, I think so. There are two DB9 connectors on the back of >> each ES40. They tried one and can talk to the SRM console >> (until it all goes away when they try to boot.) When they plug >> their terminal into the other DB9, they don't get any response. >> > The "real" console on the ES40 is neither of these, it's an MMJ > that is located above those ports. > I bet that's it! Thank you, Malcolm. >> However, it wasn't running "perfectly well", since they had plugged >> the AS4100's Ethernet cable into it, and it doesn't respond to pings, >> SET HOST or LAT. It could be that the port is at the wrong speed. > > > It could be that VMS has stopped in the boot process to ask you to > set the clock (this prompt coming out on the MMJ connector ) > Could be. I had them typing blind date & time strings at the "console", just in case, but of course, there was no response. They are absolutely convinced the serial console doesn't work under VMS, which is of course nonsense, and are planning to try to install the VGA card from the 4100 in one of the ES40's on Monday and try again. If the MMJ is in fact the console, then this will probably work, and they'll never believe that wasn't the problem. Oh well, as long as it works :-( -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:40:46 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Hung TCPware or what? Message-ID: <46AB9BBE.1D36FE19@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > One of my MicroVAX 3100 Model 80's hung in HK recently. I can PING it, > but cannot open a terminal session. This is likely something other than an IP stack issue. When it's happened to me, VMS was severly resource starved to over-allocation of memory, pagefile, ... just about everything. I was able to use SYSMAN from another node and find that SHOW SYSTEM listed almost every process in the system is some sort of resource wait state, the most common being FPW (Free Page Wait). -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 21:24:04 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: itanium memory/page sizes Message-ID: In article <4BHqi.13$RS1.10@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > >I vaguely recall that the Itanium begins it's life with a 4Kb page size >and that the EFI changes this page size. Is/was this true or do I have >a short-circuit somewhere in my inter-cranial data banks? Great news. The inter-cranial data banks are still in tip-top shape. Hoff provided me with a link to the answer which I have here: http://tmesis.com/ipages.html -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:31:40 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <63914$46abb61b$cef8887a$28890@TEKSAVVY.COM> AEF wrote: >> >> = nuclear, WMD's land mines, pollution etc etc etc. > > You would prefer that MORE countries get atomic weapons? Until the USA gets rid of its own WMDs, it has no right to ask others to get rid of theirs. And as long as the USA supports Israel's possession of nuclear weapons without requiring it to sign any treaties, then the USA is in no position to ask other middle eastern countries to not have a nuclear programme. If you want respect, you need to be fair. If you want to be arbirtrator, you need to be neutral. And in terms of the land mines: If the USA is unwilling to deploy them on its own territory (for instance, to defend its border with mexico), then it has no business deploying them outside its territory. > One reason some hate the USA is that it is so successful. This is utter bullshit brainwashing from your government. And until americans cease to swallow this, they cannot possibly understand world affairs and as such, should not give any of their government the right to interfere in world affairs. > The USA also does a lot of good in the world, though it could and > should do better. The bad that its does far outweights the good that it does because it totally discredits the USA. The USA can no longer work to imporve human rights since it has become itself an human rights abuser, user of torture, kidnapping, secret prisons etc. It can no longer demand its citizens be given due legal process in other countries because it now gives itself the choice to refuse to grant due legal process to non-USA citizens inside the USA (against the USA constitution, and against the UN charter of rights which was ratified into law by the USA when the UN was formed). What this debate has told me is that there are still many americans who have not yet woken up from the Bush brainwashing and it will still take a few years before they do and start to see it the way the rest of the world sees the atrocities performed by the USA. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:55:04 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1185663304.658446.159880@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 28, 5:31 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > >> = nuclear, WMD's land mines, pollution etc etc etc. > > > You would prefer that MORE countries get atomic weapons? > > Until the USA gets rid of its own WMDs, it has no right to ask others to > get rid of theirs. That would be stupid. Einstein, a pacifist at heart, who spent a good portion of his life trying to stop nations from going to war (after WWII), realized that unilateral disarmament would be very foolish. You speak of rights. I speak of avoiding nuclear wars. If you think "rights" in this case are more important, that's your opinion. Then don't complain about nuclear wars that would result from your foolishness. And then you would, of course, blame it on the US for following your own advice, but you'd omit the "your own advice" part. > And as long as the USA supports Israel's possession of nuclear weapons > without requiring it to sign any treaties, then the USA is in no > position to ask other middle eastern countries to not have a nuclear > programme. If you want respect, you need to be fair. If you want to be > arbirtrator, you need to be neutral. How does the US support Israel's possession of nuclear weapons? I don't believe either the US or Israel even admits that Israel has nuclear weapons. I'm not saying they don't have them, but I don't see any support for it. Nor do I see any danger FROM Israel possessing nuclear weapons. I DO see a big danger from the rest of the Middle Ease having nuclear weapons. Again you elevate "rights" above avoiding the horrible, widespread death and destruction that would result from other countries in the Middle Ease possessing nuclear weapons. Like I said, and you ignored, principles have consequences. > And in terms of the land mines: If the USA is unwilling to deploy them > on its own territory (for instance, to defend its border with mexico), > then it has no business deploying them outside its territory. This is a ridiculous statement. If the US deployed land mines on the Mexican border you'd be the first to scream bloody murder about it. Maybe there's no reason to deploy them on its own territory? We're not at war with Mexico. > > One reason some hate the USA is that it is so successful. > > This is utter bullshit brainwashing from your government. And until > americans cease to swallow this, they cannot possibly understand world > affairs and as such, should not give any of their government the right > to interfere in world affairs. You conveniently omitted the rest of my argument. I said ONE reason -- not the ONLY reason. Please go back and reread my post for the rest of the argument, as it hasn't registered in your consciousness yet, and therefore, your comment here means nothing. > > The USA also does a lot of good in the world, though it could and > > should do better. > > The bad that its does far outweights the good that it does because it > totally discredits the USA. The USA can no longer work to imporve human > rights since it has become itself an human rights abuser, user of > torture, kidnapping, secret prisons etc. It can no longer demand its > citizens be given due legal process in other countries because it now > gives itself the choice to refuse to grant due legal process to non-USA > citizens inside the USA (against the USA constitution, and against the > UN charter of rights which was ratified into law by the USA when the UN > was formed). I think the world benefits merely from the existence of the USA. Yes, there are a lot of things wrong that need to be fixed. I think there'd be more wars without the US around. I admit, however, that the Iraq war was a big mistake in many, many ways. I don't think any people within the US are denied legal process unless you consider Gitmo part of the US. > What this debate has told me is that there are still many americans who > have not yet woken up from the Bush brainwashing and it will still take > a few years before they do and start to see it the way the rest of the > world sees the atrocities performed by the USA. Hey, the Iraqis are doing most of the killing in Iraq. And what about Darfur, Rwanda, East Timor, what about those atrocities which are far worse? JF, you're obviously from the blame America first crowd and probably even worse the blame ONLY America crowd. You are an anti-American bigot. You spoke absolute nonsense about living under Saddam. Why should we listen to you about anything else? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:38:01 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: July the 4th Message-ID: <000001c7d170$567132f0$035398d0$@com> A sensible opinion - comments below... > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 4:32 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: July the 4th > > AEF wrote: > >> > >> = nuclear, WMD's land mines, pollution etc etc etc. > > > > You would prefer that MORE countries get atomic weapons? > > Until the USA gets rid of its own WMDs, it has no right to ask others > to > get rid of theirs. > > And as long as the USA supports Israel's possession of nuclear weapons > without requiring it to sign any treaties, then the USA is in no > position to ask other middle eastern countries to not have a nuclear > programme. If you want respect, you need to be fair. If you want to be > arbirtrator, you need to be neutral. > > And in terms of the land mines: If the USA is unwilling to deploy them > on its own territory (for instance, to defend its border with mexico), > then it has no business deploying them outside its territory. > The cases are not parallel. The illegal immigrants from Mexico are not usually hostile to the U.S, nor do they come into the country to wreak havoc. The fact that they do cause financial and logistic support havoc is more due to the sheer numbers rather than anything else. In the middle east, the case is far different. They are not individuals even, they are organizations with goals that are way over the brainbow. And they do have violent ill intent towards U.S. citizens. Note - not towards the U.S. government - but to the *people* here. That makes them little more than a gang of hostile armed thugs. And that makes appropriate action against them police action, at least in my opinion. > > > One reason some hate the USA is that it is so successful. > > This is utter bullshit brainwashing from your government. And until > americans cease to swallow this, they cannot possibly understand world > affairs and as such, should not give any of their government the right > to interfere in world affairs. > I suppose you would prefer that the entire U.S. population be subjected to your brainwashing? Or do you believe that your ideas are the only RIGHT ideas there are in the world? > > The USA also does a lot of good in the world, though it could and > > should do better. > > The bad that its does far outweights the good that it does because it > totally discredits the USA. The USA can no longer work to imporve human > rights since it has become itself an human rights abuser, user of > torture, kidnapping, secret prisons etc. It can no longer demand its > citizens be given due legal process in other countries because it now > gives itself the choice to refuse to grant due legal process to non-USA > citizens inside the USA (against the USA constitution, and against the > UN charter of rights which was ratified into law by the USA when the UN > was formed). > Not a problem - I assume then you want the U.S. to stop funding all the humanitarian and security programs we fund throughout the world. You don't like the way the U.S. does things, stop taking our money. And I do mean *our* money, we pay a hell of lot of taxes. > What this debate has told me is that there are still many americans who > have not yet woken up from the Bush brainwashing and it will still take > a few years before they do and start to see it the way the rest of the > world sees the atrocities performed by the USA. What this debate has NOT taught you yet, is that you cannot categorize the U.S. population the way you do, Americans have a whole lot of different opinions, and we have learned to live with each other, even when the person you live next too has radically different opinions that your own. Also, it doesn't matter if you do not like the current president. We change presidents every four years or so. Like the weather in Texas, if you don't like what you are seeing right now, wait a while - it will change. On the other hand, the U.S. is a sovereign state, and I note that we are not beholding to anyone else to survive - unlike many countries we support right now. And the deeper problem is that an awful lot of the rest of the world is jealous of the prosperity almost everyone here enjoys. That is easily seen by the number of people who wish to immigrate here, not to hijack planes and fly them into buildings, but to build a better life for themselves. I love the statement someone made earlier today - you have a right to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. The facts do not fit your opinion. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:12:52 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <7013$46abdbe2$cef8887a$8663@TEKSAVVY.COM> AEF wrote: > I don't think any people within the US are denied legal process unless > you consider Gitmo part of the US. The USA ambassador to Canada stated categorically that non-citizens had no legal rights in the USA. (trying to explain why the USA had kidnapped a canadian at JFK airport and sent him to be tortured in Syria). Human rights charters and constitutional garantees are there to ensure there are NO EXCEPTIONS and that EVERYONE benefits from those protections. If you start to allow exceptions, (such as not giving "blacks" full legal rights, discriminating between sex etc), you break your obligation to uphold those garantees. > bigot. You spoke absolute nonsense about living under Saddam. Why > should we listen to you about anything else? Lets continue this conversation in a few years when you will have awakened to real information about what the USA has been doing for the past 6 years. The USA is still living in its own litle universe without a clue of what is really happening even inside their own country thanks to the USA media who consciously decided to NOT report the atrocities performed by Bush&co. (and lack of a real democratic opposition to the party in power). ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.411 ************************