INFO-VAX	Tue, 24 Jul 2007	Volume 2007 : Issue 401

   Contents:
Re: July the 4th
Re: July the 4th
Seattle local:  Anyone know where Pat Tressel is these days?
Re: What OS version to run on a DEC 3000-M600
Re: What OS version to run on a DEC 3000-M600
Re: What OS version to run on a DEC 3000-M600

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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:34:47 -0700
From:  AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: July the 4th
Message-ID: <1185240887.528049.325470@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>

On Jul 23, 8:48 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <1185158536.821334.227...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >On Jul 16, 8:51 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> >> In article <1184193800.548881.264...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> >On Jul 11, 11:50 am, Ron Johnson <ron.l.john...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> >> On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> >> >> > In article <1184115111.488306.300...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> >    Doug Phillips <dphil...@netscape.net> writes:
> >> >> >> On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk <m...@home.nl> wrote:
> >> >> >>> JF Mezei wrote:
> >> >> >>>> Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> >> >>>>> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just"
> >> >> >>>>> resistance by another name?
> >> >> [snip]
> >> >[...]
> >> >> > If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do
> >> >> > the war would have ended within months of the original invasion.  When
> >> >> > you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his
> >> >> > "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into
> >> >> > the air how do you stop the fighting?
>
> >> >> Hearts and minds, Bill.  Hearts and minds.
>
> >> >> The big problem is that big armies (especially, AFAICT, the US
> >> >> military) are not designed for "destroy the enemy without destroying
> >> >> the populous".
>
> >> >> Not that I think such a task is possible unless the civilian
> >> >> population really wants it to happen.
>
> >> >Let's take a look at two success stories: Germany and Japan. We beat
> >> >them in a war. We bombed Germany. We dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan.
> >> >Germany was run by Nazis and now it's a democracy with a large
> >> >economy. Japan was under an emperor and is now a democracy with a
> >> >large economy. Both were guilty of unspeakable cruelties and mass
> >> >murder. And now we're all chums, relatively speaking.
>
> >> Germany was a democracy before Hitler came to power. Hitler and the Nazi party
> >> initially came to power through democratic elections.
>
> >> The first Japanese General Election took place on July 1st 1890.
> >> The electorate at that time being limited to men who paid more than a certain
> >> amount of tax. This was gradually relaxed and all men over the age of 25 could
> >> vote in elections from 1925 onwards see
>
> >>http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/democracy.html
>
> >> (There was no female suffrage but that was hardly unusual for pre-war
> >> democracies).
>
> >> Hence for both Germany and Japan the rebuilding of Democracy after the war was
> >> just tinkering with a system which had existed in the years immediately prior
> >> to the war and which had been derailed by the economic and political pressures
> >> of the 1930s.
>
> >But during the war there was no such democracy to tinker with. You
> >actually had to bring it back, which seems quite non-trivial to me.
> >And if we fought the Axis the way we fight in Iraq, well, things would
> >be different.
>
> >So I guess what you're saying is the fact that there were recent
> >democracies in these countries before the war made it easier to make
> >them democracies after the war. Fine, but we had to decisively win the
> >war first, of course, which is a lot more than just "tinkering".
>
> Of course the war had to be won. (But the war in Iraq was won just as
> decisively as the war against Germany and Japan. It was the lack of planning
> for the aftermath that was different.)

Well, yes and no. The war continues with the insurgency.

>
> There was a solid basis from which to rebuild democracy in both
> Germany and Japan
>
> 1) Japan had a long history as a nation.
>    Germany was a newer nation (only really coming into existence in something
>    like it's modern form when it became a federal state in 1871) but it's
>    people considered themselves to be a single people.
>
> 2) There was in both nations a history of multi-party democratic
>    elections prior to the war.
>
> 3) In both Germany and Japan there was a constitution and political and legal
>    structures supporting those pre-war democratic elections.
>
> Hence rebuilding democracy in those countries following the war was relatively
> easy.

It helped that we won the war decisively. We did not win the war
decisively in Iraq because of the insurgency. Yes we toppled Saddam
but the Sunnis fought on thru the insurgency. I don't recall there
being such after WWII. Many Iraqi people voted and proudly displayed
their purple thumbs. So without the insurgency I think it might have
worked. Yeah, there's plenty of blame to go around. I'm not excusing
anyone here.

If you were in Japan's position and had two atomic bombs dropped on
you and had none of your own and didn't know how many more might be
coming, I think that would tend to make you a little cooperative, no?
Germany was devastated also. Iraq, less so, I think.

AEF

AEF

>
> In Iraq democracy, a constitution, democratic political and legal
> structures had to be built from scratch. There was no history of meaningful
> multi-party democratic elections before the war. The country itself had been
> arbitrarily constructed by the British and French drawing lines on the map
> after the first world war which took no account of the wishes of the people.
>
> Therefore building democracy in Iraq was a much greater challenge than
> rebuilding it in Japan or Germany.
>
> David Webb
> Security team leader
> CCSS
> Middlesex University
>
> >> David Webb
> >[...]
>
> >AEF

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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:43:41 -0700
From:  AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: July the 4th
Message-ID: <1185241421.218851.277280@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>

On Jul 23, 9:05 pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> > Of course the war had to be won. (But the war in Iraq was won just as
> > decisively as the war against Germany and Japan. It was the lack of planning
> > for the aftermath that was different.)
>
> The point of view is wrong.  USA invading Iraq is the equivalent of
> Germany invading France.

Nonsense. This is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to
begin. I think it's your reflexive anti-Americanism. Yes, the war as
executed was wrong and a big folly. And I wish it never happened and
that we could just get the hell out and deal with the consequences
later with air power if necessary. But your equivalence is absolutely
absurd.

> Germany changed a stable regime in France, and it was the allies which
> returned France to a stable regime.
>
> USA changed a stable regime in Iraq and it is now in a state ov civil
> war. There can be very few definitions of "victory" that could be
> applied to the USA invasion of iraq.

JF, kindly go back to your brilliant marketing write-ups as said
brilliance isn't showing up in this post of yours. Your two paragraphs
above are a ridiculous analogy.

> Victory will come when someone kicks the invadors out and returns Iraq
> to a stable environment. This cannot happen because of the USA's veto at
> the security council, so the civil war continues. Unfortunatly, in the
> USA, there is no intelligent debate on the issue. It is black or white
> only ("surge" or "immediate widthdrawal"). There is no debate on the
> actual way the USA operates in Iraq with the military still very much
> controlling the government and who is allowed to run at elections etc.

No, a bloodbath will come when the US leaves. I don't see how that's
"victory" except for the future dictator of Iraq.

> The USA can built its huge embassy, complete with its own power
> generating station and fire hall, but they have yet to build power
> stations to help Iraqis turn their lights back on.

I can't comment on this specific claim, but I can say the following:

It is far easier to destroy than to build. Yes, the US bungled this
whole operation in many ways, but the fact I just mentioned is to our
great disadvantage.

Oh, and if you can't even guard your own power, how are you going to
help anyone else with anything?

>
> Hint: Instead of paying huge sums of money to Haliburton and Blackwater,
> the USA needs to get the local government to choose local contractors
> who will hire iraqis to do the rebuilding work. The more iraqis work,
> the fewer iraqis will be throwing bombs on the streets.

Have you checked on the practicality of this? They'll still be blown
up by insurgents.

>   unless the Rumsfeld/Wolffowitz/Cheney plan was to destabilise the
> whole middle east and cause the USA to lose all respect.

Yes, they blew it big time, but that doesn't make you right about
anything.

AEF

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Date: 23 Jul 2007 17:37:14 -0400
From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>
Subject: Seattle local:  Anyone know where Pat Tressel is these days?
Message-ID: <mdd4pjured1.fsf@panix5.panix.com>

I've lost track of Pat, who worked for DEC for some time here in the Seattle
area, then XKL, then went back to grad school full time.  She seems to have
dropped off the map.

Anyone here still in touch with her?  If so, please have her get in touch with
me.

-- 
Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |
news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |
"You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |
                         --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |

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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:09:56 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: What OS version to run on a DEC 3000-M600
Message-ID: <46A4EEF4.2020307@comcast.net>

Slor wrote:
> Despite all prevention efforts, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip
> Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote in news:f7ol32$b4u$2@online.de: 
> 
> 
>>I have 192 MB of memory in mine.  It can even run CSWB, but quite
>>slowly.  I would recommend more memory and installing 8.3.
>>
> 
> 
> This, unsurprisingly, seems to be the recurring theme.  So far, I have yet 
> to track anyone down who has memory for this system.  I tried the person 
> that was recommended in one of the post, but he has long since parted with 
> the memory he was selling.  Anyone here happen to have any to part with or 
> know someone who might?
> 
> thanks
> 

Try "Memory World".  ISTR buying Alpha compatible memory from them once 
upon a time.  Genuine DEC parts may be hard to come by but there should 
be lots of "third party" memory available.

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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:39:55 +0300
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= <uusimaki@nospam_exdecfinland.org>
Subject: Re: What OS version to run on a DEC 3000-M600
Message-ID: <46a50375$0$9938$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>

Steven M. Schweda wrote:
> From: Slor <semaj@rols.ten>
> 
>> [...]  So far, I have yet 
>> to track anyone down who has memory for this system.  I tried the person 
>> that was recommended in one of the post, but he has long since parted with 
>> the memory he was selling.  Anyone here happen to have any to part with or 
>> know someone who might?
> 
>    Am I missing something, or has anyone actually offered a description
> of this memory?  Is it strictly proprietary (like a board for a
> VAXstation 2000), or is it really some common/cheap thing (like the
> DIMMs used in an XP1000)?
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org
>    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818
>    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547


Unfortunately, the SIMMs are different from other brands and PC parts - 
AFAIK. The most differentiating detail is the amount of connector pins. 
Common PC SIMMs have 72 pins, but DEC3000-600 SIMMs have maybe the 
double (I haven't counted). The pinout might also be different from any 
other brands (Like the PA-RISC machine memories are different from 
anything else).
With the AS2x00 series, DEC started to use PC type of memory (although 
it always is parity memory (xx*36).


Regards,

Kari

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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:48:28 GMT
From: Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.dot.com>
Subject: Re: What OS version to run on a DEC 3000-M600
Message-ID: <rdeininger-8E3557.21482623072007@customer-201-125-217-207.uninet.net.mx>

In article <Xns99767D7D1E6E8emuslor@216.196.97.136>,
 Slor <semaj@rols.ten> wrote:

> Despite all prevention efforts, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip
> Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote in news:f7ol32$b4u$2@online.de: 
> 
> > 
> > I have 192 MB of memory in mine.  It can even run CSWB, but quite
> > slowly.  I would recommend more memory and installing 8.3.
> > 
> 
> This, unsurprisingly, seems to be the recurring theme.  So far, I have yet 
> to track anyone down who has memory for this system.  I tried the person 
> that was recommended in one of the post, but he has long since parted with 
> the memory he was selling.  Anyone here happen to have any to part with or 
> know someone who might?
> 
> thanks

DEC 3000 systems (EXCEPT for the model 300 flavors, which are different) 
take memory in groups of 8 identical SIMMs.  Memory wasn't particularly 
standardized back then (1992), and these SIMMs don't match any PC memory 
AFAIK.

DEC 3000-M600 systems take either 1 or 2 memory kits (8 or 16 SIMMs 
total).

DEC part numbers for memory kits were:
MS15-BA (16 MB kit)   - discontinued early, rare, I've never seen them
MS15-CA (32 MB kit)
MS15-DA (64 MB kit)
MS15-EA (128 MB kit)  - originally expensive, now uncommon
MS15-FA (256 MB kit)  - originally very expensive, now rare

These are all 100-pin SIMMs.

The 32 MB kit only has RAM chips on 1 side; the 64 MB kit uses the same 
board, with chips on both sides.

Similarly, the 128 MB kit has chips on 1 side; the 256 MB kit has chips 
on both sides.

In addition to DEC, a few other vendors made compatible memory.  
Kingston and DataRAM at least.

I find a few kits available on ebay now.  I searched for MS15-CA, 
MS15-DA, and so on.  I see all kit sizes from 32 MB up to 256 MB.

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End of INFO-VAX 2007.401
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