INFO-VAX Fri, 13 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 379 Contents: Re: %LICENSE-F-INTERINJ, internal LMF error was encountered Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Re: EDT Replacement Re: EDT Replacement Re: EDT Replacement Re: EDT Replacement Re: EDT Replacement Re: EDT Replacement Re: EDT Replacement Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? RE: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS RE: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Linux (was Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS) Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: Solved: SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000 - cannot connect to serial of rj-45 po Re: Solved: SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000 - cannot connect to serial of rj-45 port r Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:27:38 -0400 From: "Jilly" Subject: Re: %LICENSE-F-INTERINJ, internal LMF error was encountered Message-ID: <46967290$0$5561$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> "Walter Kuhn" wrote in message news:46961385$0$18449$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at... > Hello Group, > > we are building a Cluster with 3 Itaniums under OpenVMS 8.3 with the > OPENVMS-I64-MCOE license. > When we reboot one machine, we get the error > > %LICENSE-F-INTERINJ, internal LMF error was encountered. Checkpoint 16419 > -SYSTEM-F-IVLOCKID, invalid lock ID > > when issuing the $LIC LOAD command. To make the cluster work again, we > have to reboot all machines! > Does someone know that problem? > > We are just making a call for that problem... > > Regards > Walter > Have you installed the VMS83I_LMF-V0200 patch kit to make sure this issue has not been corrected already? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:13:27 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: Syltrem wrote: > "Keith Parris" wrote: >>I'm told that HP is working to produce DVDs for customers. > > They should produce DVDs for non-customers I meant "to be made available to people in outside of HP". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:06:05 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: <139d5tubgo7fv68@corp.supernews.com> "Keith Parris" wrote in message news:f76218$la3$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > Syltrem wrote: >> "Keith Parris" wrote: >>>I'm told that HP is working to produce DVDs for customers. >> >> They should produce DVDs for non-customers > > I meant "to be made available to people in outside of HP". My comment was not directed to you But DEC/Compaq/HP were often seen preaching to the choir... That's what I meant. Syltrem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:42:07 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: <4Culi.12828$Oz7.9062@newsfe19.lga> I've always found EDIT/EDT/READ to be *very* efficient at reading huge log files. As long as you have sufficient PGFLQUO. And the lines are all less than 255 char. If the lines are longer than 255, use EDIT/TPU/READ/MODIFY. The /READ qualifier significantly increases load speed (and probably reduces memory requirements) because then EDIT doesn't have to create edit buffers. On 07/12/07 10:53, Michael D. Ober wrote: > Our log files are too big for it. It didn't like the 42Mb log file I was > trying to review. > > Mike. > > "Rob Brooks" wrote in message > news:tIgRG+AFMZrg@cuebid.zko.hp.com... >> "Michael D. Ober" writes: >>> Is there a free or low cost replacement for EDT on VMS 8.3? Preferably >>> one >>> that can be configured to use the same 10-key keypad (Gold) keys as EDT. >> Huh? EDT works well on V8.3 (both Alpha and Itanium). -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:41:39 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: <469683F3.2010305@comcast.net> John Reagan wrote: > Michael D. Ober wrote: > >> Our log files are too big for it. It didn't like the 42Mb log file I >> was trying to review. >> >> Mike. >> >> "Rob Brooks" wrote in message >> news:tIgRG+AFMZrg@cuebid.zko.hp.com... >> >>> "Michael D. Ober" writes: >>> >>>> Is there a free or low cost replacement for EDT on VMS 8.3? >>>> Preferably one >>>> that can be configured to use the same 10-key keypad (Gold) keys as >>>> EDT. >>> >>> >>> Huh? EDT works well on V8.3 (both Alpha and Itanium). >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com >> >> >> >> > > EVE has a SET KEYPAD EDT as does LSE (included in DECset). > It's not enough! I have a fair sized EDTINI file that doesn't translate easily to EVE. I've been developing and using it for more than twenty years now. I can't imagine what the designers of EVE were thinking of; the EVE keypad did almost nothing that I, as an EDT user, wanted to do. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 15:59:29 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: In article <4Culi.12828$Oz7.9062@newsfe19.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > > I've always found EDIT/EDT/READ to be *very* efficient at reading > huge log files. > I'd add /nojournal to that for TPU. In fact I have view == "edit/read/nojournal" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:31:09 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: In article <46964e5f$0$10307$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, "Michael D. Ober" wrote: > Our log files are too big for it. It didn't like the 42Mb log file I was > trying to review. > It could be the number of records rather than the absolute size of the file. How many records does the file have? Exact error message? Also see http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/group3/351.HTML -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:35:42 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: On 07/12/07 15:59, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <4Culi.12828$Oz7.9062@newsfe19.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >> I've always found EDIT/EDT/READ to be *very* efficient at reading >> huge log files. >> > > I'd add /nojournal to that for TPU. In fact I have > > view == "edit/read/nojournal" EDIT/TPU/READ does *not* create a TPU$JOURNAL, so /JOURN is redundant. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:31:35 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: <1184283095.587900.37410@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 3:41 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > John Reagan wrote: > > Michael D. Ober wrote: > > >> Our log files are too big for it. It didn't like the 42Mb log file I > >> was trying to review. > > >> Mike. > > >> "Rob Brooks" wrote in message > >>news:tIgRG+AFMZrg@cuebid.zko.hp.com... > > >>> "Michael D. Ober" writes: > > >>>> Is there a free or low cost replacement for EDT on VMS 8.3? > >>>> Preferably one > >>>> that can be configured to use the same 10-key keypad (Gold) keys as > >>>> EDT. > > >>> Huh? EDT works well on V8.3 (both Alpha and Itanium). > > >>> -- > > >>> Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com > > > EVE has a SET KEYPAD EDT as does LSE (included in DECset). > > It's not enough! I have a fair sized EDTINI file that doesn't translate > easily to EVE. I've been developing and using it for more than twenty > years now. Me too! Well, roughly 20 years, anyway. Here is yet another advantage of EDT for me: I currently have 29 MicroVAX systems on line, some in NYC, some in London, and 2 in Hong Kong. Now, what's faster when I update my init file: copying the EDT init file to 28 systems, two overseas, or copying an EVE section file (1200 blocks IIRC) to the same systems?! (OK EVE experts -- if there's a better way, I'm all ears.) AEF > > I can't imagine what the designers of EVE were thinking of; the EVE > keypad did almost nothing that I, as an EDT user, wanted to do. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:32:33 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: EDT Replacement Message-ID: <5fo31iF3d8kifU1@mid.individual.net> AEF wrote: > On Jul 12, 3:41 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: [...] >> It's not enough! I have a fair sized EDTINI file that doesn't translate >> easily to EVE. I've been developing and using it for more than twenty >> years now. > > Me too! Well, roughly 20 years, anyway. > > Here is yet another advantage of EDT for me: I currently have 29 > MicroVAX systems on line, some in NYC, some in London, and 2 in Hong > Kong. Now, what's faster when I update my init file: copying the EDT > init file to 28 systems, two overseas, or copying an EVE section file > (1200 blocks IIRC) to the same systems?! > > (OK EVE experts -- if there's a better way, I'm all ears.) Well, it depends... :-) I've seen people create a section file (EVE's SAVE command) just to retain their key definitions, or some buffer defaults. That seems pretty wasteful to me. If you've actually coded a new procedure in TPU, or modified one of EVE's procedures, that's different. A) If all you're doing is defining (mapping) keys and setting a few other defaults, things that are done via EVE commands, just put them in an EVE$INIT.EVE file and copy that file around (like you do now for your EDTINI file). Define the logical name EVE$INIT in your LOGIN.COM to point to the file. B) The next level of complexity, say if there's an issue with performance, or if you need to change the value of one of EVE's variables, or indeed, if there's some other snippet of TPU code you want executed when EVE starts up (including perhaps a smallish procedure written in TPU), put the TPU statements in a TPU$COMMAND.TPU file. Define the logical name TPU$COMMAND in your LOGIN.COM to point to that file. C) If you actually write your own TPU procedures, and use them to build your section file using SYS$EXAMPLES:EVE$BUILD.COM (as I do), then you could still just copy the updated TPU source file(s) to your various target systems and (remotely) submit a batch job(s) to rebuild your section file(s) locally on each machine. For people just starting out with EVE, (A) is clearly the place to start. But for the ambitious, all VMS systems have the full EVE source in SYS$EXAMPLES:EVE*.TPU (plus there's at least one EVE*.DAT and EVE*.UIL file), i.e., it's "open source" so you can see how things are done and change them as you like. :-) The source may vary according to the installed VMS version, but there have not been many changes since about VMS 6.x. -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:28:20 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > from AskHL: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? http://64.223.189.234/node/396 > > Posted July 3rd, 2007 by Hoff > > "How about the use of OpenVMS in High Performance computing? A recent > question from a scholar on the possibility of using OpenVMS in this > area forced me to give the rather embarrasing answer that you're pretty > much on your own if you want to explore this on OpenVMS." > > Good! What could be better for a research project on parallel or > distributed computing on VMS.. That means anything we can do in this area > will be publishable. Mechanisms for this including available grid and Beowulf options abound within the HPTC community, and there are vendors small and large providing the tools and capabilities necessary for Linux, Mac OS X and various other platforms. HPTC including image rendering, forecasting, fluid dynamics or such tasks usually care rather less about the intermediate results and rather more about the end results. This means a premium on performance and communications and parallelism, and less so on interprocess data integrity mechanisms -- the grid and the programmer keep the tasks from stepping on each other. File systems are a significant performance issue for HPTC on OpenVMS as Mr Mathog has referenced; writing to disk is massively more slow than the far faster in-memory lazy-write capabilities. A classic programming approach can involve frequent use of turd files -- and these can be either explicitly created, or implicitly created within a library in response to pipes or application-level synchronization techniques -- is very slow due to the integrity intentionally provided within the RMS and XQP/XFC areas. There have been attempts or ports of MPI and such in the past (and many and various related discussions), and there are various home-grown distributed-processing systems over the years. (I designed and wrote and supported DECnet-based network communications for what amounted to a grid an eon ago. The direct descendant of that code is presently still running in certain major factories, AFAIK.) The second-level issues here involve the development and management tools typical of building applications for parallelism. It's certainly feasible to brute-force it -- eg: DECnet-based solutions -- but then you spend as much time building the grid as working on the application. And then you get to support it all. The typical OpenVMS solution here is a cluster and ICC, and that can be a fairly expensive solution as compared to other commercially-available servers, both in terms of the hardware and the software. And then there are the file system and tool issues to contend with. (The non-HP gear that Mr Mathog (AFAIK) and I both deal with on a regular basis can be configured and run in a grid; I've been considering activating the in-built support just for grins and giggles; to brute-force a few applications I've been dealing with. Hunting fleas with anvils is nothing if not entertaining and educational, after all.) Would I seek to dissuade you here? No. Of course not. Simply realize that there solutions here that are less-expensive and widely available; HPTC isn't a market where DEC, Compaq nor HP has classically aimed OpenVMS. Having MPI or a grid could certainly be very entertaining. And a point of clarification: that text cited is of a user posting a question to the HL site. The response to that question was not included in the original posting here. Should you wish to discuss it with the user, questioners can typically be contacted by another registered user though the HL web site contact form, save for users that have selected an opt-out. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:33:40 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <8uuli.20550$wG2.9713@newsfe17.lga> On 07/12/07 10:52, David Mathog wrote: > Anton Shterenlikht wrote: >> from AskHL: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? >> http://64.223.189.234/node/396 >> >> Posted July 3rd, 2007 by Hoff >> >> "How about the use of OpenVMS in High Performance computing? A recent >> question from a scholar on the possibility of using OpenVMS in this >> area forced me to give the rather embarrasing answer that you're >> pretty >> much on your own if you want to explore this on OpenVMS." >> >> Good! What could be better for a research project on parallel or >> distributed computing on VMS.. That means anything we can do in this area >> will be publishable. > > Unless things have changed greatly in the last few releases of VMS, > which I doubt, then I addressed many of these issues years ago in a > series of posts about IO on VMS. In a nutshell, VMS is very much > concerned with data integrity, and so it goes to great lengths to see > that the data actually hits the disk. This causes an immense hit in > IO performance compared to the default situation on > Unix/Linux/Windows/(every other OS more or less) where the default is > to use a lot of memory caching and let the data hit the disk eventually, > whenever convenient, if then! Even if disk caching is enabled VMS > is still at a disadvantage because of RMS overhead, which all by itself > accounted for about a factor of 3 slow down of VMS compared to linux. > This was all carried out on DS10 boxes, google to find the posts. > > So, the bottom line is, VMS is actually not very well suited for High > Performance computing for scientific and engineering applications, where > speed is everything, and data integrity is usually not that much of a > concern. Ie, if the system does happen to crash during a run the job > is just restarted, and nobody is out millions of dollars in lost > transactions. It would probably be possible to write some sort of > high performance subsystem for VMS, but it would need to bypass RMS, > and by the time you've done that, why bother using VMS? Now VMS > may have a place in "High Performance Transaction computing", > which would be some sort of distributed billing or other record keeping > system, but that seems to be pretty much where VMS clustering is right > now. Am I missing something? Rdb is pretty darned high-performance, and bypasses RMS to directly use QIO$ calls. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:25:19 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > Am I missing something? [around the relative speeds of file and disk > I/O on OpenVMS, as compared with Linux -hoff] > > Rdb is pretty darned high-performance, and bypasses RMS to directly use > QIO$ calls. Quite true. Most applications in this space are using native file system calls, and not SQL or such. It's entirely feasible for Dark Helmet to set I/O engines for ludicrous speed here -- if you're willing to go around the file system and around (or intercept) the C standard library calls -- but then you're supporting it all yourself, right up and into the application stack. And then you have the relative platform costs to contend with, and a whole stack of tools to write and/or extend and/or support. I can purchase a basic 1U grid system building block for US$3000 (new), this for a quad-core Xeon 5100-series with dual GbE, remote management, one disk and two open bays, 1 GB FB-DIMM, grid controller software, and developer tools all included. Everything. These boxes can add FC SAN with 10 TB per 3U box, if needed. If I went to a Linux HPTC vendor, I could very likely see a lower price-point, and I can probably find specific 1U or blade configurations and cheaper hardware and roll a Beowulf myself -- if I don't factor in my own time. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:02:52 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: > HPTC isn't a market where DEC, Compaq nor HP has classically aimed > OpenVMS. VMS was a leader in HPTC early on -- IIRC, Parallel Virtual Machine (PVM) was first developed on an LAVC. That was before DEC started thinking VMS would die and OSF/1 (now Tru64) and TruClusters would replace it. That story has turned out much differently, in the end. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:10:21 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <20070712221021.GA52098@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 08:52:01AM -0700, David Mathog wrote: > > Unless things have changed greatly in the last few releases of VMS, > which I doubt, then I addressed many of these issues years ago in a > series of posts about IO on VMS. In a nutshell, VMS is very much > concerned with data integrity, and so it goes to great lengths to see > that the data actually hits the disk. This causes an immense hit in > IO performance compared to the default situation on > Unix/Linux/Windows/(every other OS more or less) where the default is > to use a lot of memory caching and let the data hit the disk eventually, > whenever convenient, if then! Even if disk caching is enabled VMS > is still at a disadvantage because of RMS overhead, which all by itself > accounted for about a factor of 3 slow down of VMS compared to linux. > This was all carried out on DS10 boxes, google to find the posts. Thanks a lot. I'll try to search for your previous posts. Perhaps it's time I read the RMS manual, though I thought the use of RMS is optional. In other words I was not going to use RMS in my fortran programs. > > So, the bottom line is, VMS is actually not very well suited for High > Performance computing for scientific and engineering applications, where > speed is everything, and data integrity is usually not that much of a > concern. Ie, if the system does happen to crash during a run the job > is just restarted, and nobody is out millions of dollars in lost > transactions. Some extra stability would be very welcome. I know of at least one case when a finite element code crashed after running for 4 months on a particular solid mechanics problem. This might, of course, have nothing to do with the OS, which I believe was some unix, but with the FE code, or with hardware, or whatever. A system crash in academia does not, perhaps, lead to a colossal money loss. Nevertheless, lost staff time can be very upsetting. On a happy note, our new supercomputer (first installment) is "experiencing problems" again: www.acrc.bris.ac.uk thanks again anton -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:32:45 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <20070712223245.GA52283@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 02:28:20PM -0400, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > >from AskHL: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? > >http://64.223.189.234/node/396 > > > > Posted July 3rd, 2007 by Hoff > > > > "How about the use of OpenVMS in High Performance computing? A recent > > question from a scholar on the possibility of using OpenVMS in this > > area forced me to give the rather embarrasing answer that you're pretty > > much on your own if you want to explore this on OpenVMS." > > > >Good! What could be better for a research project on parallel or > >distributed computing on VMS.. That means anything we can do in this area > >will be publishable. > > The typical OpenVMS solution here is a cluster and ICC, and that can be > a fairly expensive solution as compared to other commercially-available > servers, both in terms of the hardware and the software. And then there > are the file system and tool issues to contend with. (The non-HP gear > that Mr Mathog (AFAIK) and I both deal with on a regular basis can be > configured and run in a grid; I've been considering activating the > in-built support just for grins and giggles; to brute-force a few > applications I've been dealing with. Hunting fleas with anvils is > nothing if not entertaining and educational, after all.) > > Would I seek to dissuade you here? No. Of course not. Simply realize > that there solutions here that are less-expensive and widely available; > HPTC isn't a market where DEC, Compaq nor HP has classically aimed > OpenVMS. Having MPI or a grid could certainly be very entertaining. Many thanks for a detailed reply. I was not aware of this file systems issue, will do some more reading. I do use MPI clusters as well, but I'm still interested to see what is possible to achieve with VMS. And yes, I was thinking about using ICC, which to me seemed similar, at least superficially, to the basic MPI calls. > And a point of clarification: that text cited is of a user posting a > question to the HL site. The response to that question was not included > in the original posting here. Should you wish to discuss it with the > user, questioners can typically be contacted by another registered user > though the HL web site contact form, save for users that have selected > an opt-out. yes, I'll do that, thanks -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:14:26 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <1184282066.484375.205310@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 5:10 pm, Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 08:52:01AM -0700, David Mathog wrote: > > > Unless things have changed greatly in the last few releases of VMS, > > which I doubt, then I addressed many of these issues years ago in a > > series of posts about IO on VMS. In a nutshell, VMS is very much > > concerned with data integrity, and so it goes to great lengths to see > > that the data actually hits the disk. This causes an immense hit in > > IO performance compared to the default situation on > > Unix/Linux/Windows/(every other OS more or less) where the default is > > to use a lot of memory caching and let the data hit the disk eventually, > > whenever convenient, if then! Even if disk caching is enabled VMS > > is still at a disadvantage because of RMS overhead, which all by itself > > accounted for about a factor of 3 slow down of VMS compared to linux. > > This was all carried out on DS10 boxes, google to find the posts. > > Thanks a lot. I'll try to search for your previous posts. > Perhaps it's time I read the RMS manual, though I thought the use > of RMS is optional. In other words I was not going to use RMS in > my fortran programs. > > > > > So, the bottom line is, VMS is actually not very well suited for High > > Performance computing for scientific and engineering applications, where > > speed is everything, and data integrity is usually not that much of a > > concern. Ie, if the system does happen to crash during a run the job > > is just restarted, and nobody is out millions of dollars in lost > > transactions. > > Some extra stability would be very welcome. I know of at least one case > when a finite element code crashed after running for 4 months on > a particular solid mechanics problem. This might, of course, have > nothing to do with the OS, which I believe was some unix, but with > the FE code, or with hardware, or whatever. > > A system crash in academia does not, perhaps, lead to a colossal > money loss. Nevertheless, lost staff time can be very upsetting. > > On a happy note, our new supercomputer (first installment) is > "experiencing problems" again:www.acrc.bris.ac.uk > Since "super computing" can involve different needs depending upon the application, VMS certainly is worth considering for any CS lab that wishes to offer a broad spectrum of experience to the student. Offloading data access worries from the OS is pretty easy today, and as has been said, there are many options. But if some data needs to be stabilized, OpenVMS/RMS is a fine example of one way to do it. Doing something like, say weather modeling as an example, involves the need for fast number crunching and both fast working disk as well as stable and more loss-resistant transaction processing. For VMS to keep going and growing, its use by installations like yours is vital. HP should be ringing you up and knocking at your door. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jul 2007 00:00:47 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <5fntlfF3dlt7dU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1184282066.484375.205310@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > Since "super computing" can involve different needs depending upon the > application, VMS certainly is worth considering for any CS lab that > wishes to offer a broad spectrum of experience to the student. Sorry guy, that ship has sailed. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:18:21 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: >> File systems are a significant performance issue for HPTC on OpenVMS as > Mr Mathog has referenced; writing to disk is massively more slow than > the far faster in-memory lazy-write capabilities. Out of curiosity, if VMS writes to disks hosted by one of them fancy SAN subsystems, does VMS really know when the write was absolutely written to the disk platter ? Or does the disk array system report a succesfull write once the request has been made and before the disk arrays has had time to actually physically write the data to whatever physicical disk drive onto which the disk is mapped ? IF VMS insists on getting the "real" write confirmation from the disk array, how difficult would it be to add some sort of flag in the MOUNT command to let VMS be happy with just the disk subsystem's confirmation of receipt of the request ? Wouldn't that solve the performance problem since the disk arrays would then report an almost instantaneous write confirmation to VMS ? (with the risk of the data not being written if there is a power failure in the meantime) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:56:19 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <005401c7c4f1$021b1440$06513cc0$@com> When talking to a SAN device, the 'real' disk write confirmation will come from the SAN, whether it has physically written it to the array or not. It is usually, though not always presented to an opern systems host as a SCSI target. Essentially, the OpenVMS system would not know the difference at all. The SAN system, assuming you are not talking about a PC loaded with iSCSI or something like that, will ensure the stuff gets written, even in the event of a power failure. (All the ones I know of, IBM, Hitachi, EMC, etc all have short duration batteries in the box just for that purpose. Also, the machines are usually on a UPS...) A SAN is, IMNSHO, a GodSend to those of us with data centers of any size. You can manage all your storage centrally, including replication to a physically remote site, without need for or reference to the multiple host operating systems in use. As well, they are usually very fast. San Virtual Controllers are the new thing, which address the one big lack we have had in DASD storage systems, which is flexibility. For example, I can carve up a Terabyte Rank on a Shark to have open systems partitions of any size I want; but if I want to change one of those carved up partitions- I have to reformat the entire rank. This leads to carving up ranks into small chunks and building them up on the host systems to just about any desired size. 4gb chunks are pretty common, as are 8, 16, 32, and 64gb chunks. 4gb is of course, too small for a Windows boot partition (though amazingly, not too small at all for *other* OS's! :) so it becomes a real planning nightmare to deal with a batch of windows servers - unless you virtualize the pests with VMWare or the like. A SVC eliminates that problem as you can carve and recarve chucks of space all your want, to your heart's desire. Of course, different systems have different requirements; mainframes for instance, have no trouble at all with hundreds or thousands of virtual drives - say 3390-3's with are 2.3gb. I tend to keep a batch of those around (just the right size for a web server or an ftp server or whatever...) and then a batch of 3390-9's around for building data storage. I also try to hold my backup partitions to 100gigs each for general use, as our enterprise backup software is most easily tuned at that size. I've been looking at some of the large VMS sites, and I am amazed at some of the inventive solutions that are being used for them. I am also amazed at how large some of the largest ALPHA machines are- 64 processor beasties. I have not been able to totally equate the VMS ways of doing things with what my experience tells me yet, but I am coming closer. I still cannot build in theory a VMS system capable of handing a mid-sized mainframe load, but as I said before, that is most ignorance of the platform. It is also made somewhat more difficult by HP not having direct products to support the platform. MMm- what I mean there may not be very clear; basically I am saying that from say, IBM, I can buy the hardware, the OS, the database, the transaction server, the middleware, the web software, the SOX compliance software, the security software, the compilers, the ... well you get the idea. From HP, I can buy a subset of that, but I have to go off and integrate some number of other vendors products to get everything. Probably a good strategy for HP, at least in a business sense. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:18 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? > > Stephen Hoffman wrote: > >> File systems are a significant performance issue for HPTC on OpenVMS > as > > Mr Mathog has referenced; writing to disk is massively more slow than > > the far faster in-memory lazy-write capabilities. > > > Out of curiosity, if VMS writes to disks hosted by one of them fancy > SAN > subsystems, does VMS really know when the write was absolutely written > to the disk platter ? Or does the disk array system report a succesfull > write once the request has been made and before the disk arrays has had > time to actually physically write the data to whatever physicical disk > drive onto which the disk is mapped ? > > IF VMS insists on getting the "real" write confirmation from the disk > array, how difficult would it be to add some sort of flag in the MOUNT > command to let VMS be happy with just the disk subsystem's confirmation > of receipt of the request ? > > Wouldn't that solve the performance problem since the disk arrays would > then report an almost instantaneous write confirmation to VMS ? (with > the risk of the data not being written if there is a power failure in > the meantime) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:30:46 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: On 07/12/07 20:56, Paul Raulerson wrote: [snip] > > I still cannot build in theory a VMS system capable of handing a mid-sized > mainframe load, but as I said before, that is most ignorance of the > platform. It is also made somewhat more difficult by HP not having direct > products to support the platform. MMm- what I mean there may not be very > clear; basically I am saying that from say, IBM, I can buy the hardware, the > OS, the database, the transaction server, the middleware, the web software, > the SOX compliance software, the security software, the compilers, the ... > well you get the idea. From HP, I can buy a subset of that, but I have to go > off and integrate some number of other vendors products to get everything. > > Probably a good strategy for HP, at least in a business sense. DEC used to have all that stuff (except, of course, for the SOX compliance software...) but then He Who Shall Not Be Named started selling things off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Equipment_Corporation#Closing_DEC.27s_business -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:10:12 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: HoffmanLabs: High-performance Interconnects, MPI? Message-ID: <49FB2C8D-5C47-4433-A46D-12C13C51CFCF@raulersons.com> Just so! DEC was truely a top competitor in those days. -Paul On Jul 12, 2007, at 9:30 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/12/07 20:56, Paul Raulerson wrote: > [snip] >> I still cannot build in theory a VMS system capable of handing a >> mid-sized >> mainframe load, but as I said before, that is most ignorance of the >> platform. It is also made somewhat more difficult by HP not having >> direct >> products to support the platform. MMm- what I mean there may not >> be very >> clear; basically I am saying that from say, IBM, I can buy the >> hardware, the >> OS, the database, the transaction server, the middleware, the web >> software, >> the SOX compliance software, the security software, the compilers, >> the ... >> well you get the idea. From HP, I can buy a subset of that, but I >> have to go >> off and integrate some number of other vendors products to get >> everything. >> Probably a good strategy for HP, at least in a business sense. > > DEC used to have all that stuff (except, of course, for the SOX > compliance software...) but then He Who Shall Not Be Named started > selling things off. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Digital_Equipment_Corporation#Closing_DEC.27s_business > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! > ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 13:35:12 -0500 From: frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon) Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: In article <139c8af6niont94@news.supernews.com>, "David Turner, Island Computers" writes: > Please .... if you have an Itanium running VMS or soon will have in a > commerical environment we would love to hear from you. > > We are not trying to accrue contact names etc, just trying to get an idea of > how many users are transitioning or will transition to Itanium VMS > We are gradually upgrading our customers to Integrity servers running VMS. Hard to give you a good count, but roughly 2 or 3 a year. Each one is a cluster of two nodes, with small storage arrays - Sharon "Gravity... is a harsh mistress!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:50:58 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: <1184266258.319745.97620@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 11:06 am, "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: > ok > > that works > > answer that if you can, y'all ! > > ;0) > > dt"John Smith" wrote in message > > news:f2cd$469616aa$cef89807$3121@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free... > > > David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > >> Please .... if you have an Itanium running VMS or soon will have in a > >> commerical environment we would love to hear from you. > > >> We are not trying to accrue contact names etc, just trying to get an > >> idea of how many users are transitioning or will transition to > >> Itanium VMS > > > Maybe additional parts to your question ought to be: > > > a) What percentage of your production VMS environment (# of systems) do > > the > > Itanic boxes represent? ie. 25% (1 of 4 installed systems) > > > b) What percentage of your UAT environment do Itanic boxes represent? > > > c) What percentage of your development environment do Itanic boxes > > represent? > > > d) At what rate do you expect to add Itanic boxes (#/year, or 33% more per > > year, etc....) > > > e) When do expect to phase out Vax/Alpha systems you currently own? > > >> -- > >> David B Turner > >> Island Computers US Corp > >> 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 > >> Savannah GA 31404 > > >> T: 877-6364332 x201 > >> Intl: 001 912 447 6622 > > >> E: dtur...@islandco.com > >> F: 912 201 0402 > >> W:http://www.islandco.com > > > -- > > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV > > base. In house: Alpha DS10, insufficient memory but its the main system MicroVAX 3100-30, to support remaining VAX customers RX2620, just coming up VS3100-30, my desktop terminal and CD recorder AS200 4/233, catch-all test system so... (A) 33% of each architecture (since my desktop and the test box don't really count) (B) Define UAT? (C) 33% of each architecture; our customer development boxes are also used for in house production. (D) In house, nil. Customers: 1 new itanic and 1 alpha replacement/ year unless HP screws us on Alpha maintenance, which might drive more replacements or might drive more customers off the platform entirely. (E) MV3100 - 2 years. Customer demand may extend that. DS10, maybe 7-8 years. VS3100 - when it dies (18 years and counting); alpha test box - when it dies. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:39:36 -0700 From: "Russell E. Owen" Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: In article <139c8af6niont94@news.supernews.com>, "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: > Please .... if you have an Itanium running VMS or soon will have in a > commerical environment we would love to hear from you. > > We are not trying to accrue contact names etc, just trying to get an idea of > how many users are transitioning or will transition to Itanium VMS We have no Itanium boxes and no plans to get any. We have a few Alpha VMS boxes running one mission-critical application (and doing it very well). However, that application is is written in DEC FORTRAN and was written 20 years old (and regularly improved since). We expect to rewrite it within the next few years, probably in python and definitely on linux. I will miss VMS's robustness, deadlock-detecting lock manager and excellent task scheduling, but I sure won't miss FORTRAN. -- Russell P.S. the lack of a VMS svn client has been very painful. I thought modern versions of Python were also not available, but a google search suggests I was wrong about that. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:00:08 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Turner, Island Computers [mailto:dturner@no-spam- > islandco.com] > Sent: July 12, 2007 12:06 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS > > ok > > that works > > answer that if you can, y'all ! > > ;0) > > > dt David, You likely are aware of this, but the vast majority of OpenVMS Customers ha= ve few if any of their folks that hang out in newsgroups like c.o.v., hence= any sample you get will be a small one at best. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:33:09 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: <9ewli.11452$Sb4.6016@newsfe21.lga> On 07/12/07 14:39, Russell E. Owen wrote: > In article <139c8af6niont94@news.supernews.com>, > "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: > >> Please .... if you have an Itanium running VMS or soon will have in a >> commerical environment we would love to hear from you. >> >> We are not trying to accrue contact names etc, just trying to get an idea of >> how many users are transitioning or will transition to Itanium VMS > > We have no Itanium boxes and no plans to get any. > > We have a few Alpha VMS boxes running one mission-critical application > (and doing it very well). However, that application is is written in DEC > FORTRAN and was written 20 years old (and regularly improved since). We > expect to rewrite it within the next few years, probably in python and > definitely on linux. I will miss VMS's robustness, deadlock-detecting > lock manager and excellent task scheduling, but I sure won't miss > FORTRAN. If you aren't using VMS-specific LIB$, SYS$, etc calls, then gfortran might be able to use your code with "little" porting effort. > P.S. the lack of a VMS svn client has been very painful. I thought > modern versions of Python were also not available, but a google search > suggests I was wrong about that. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:55:03 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: sad they might learn something if they hung out in cov once in a while ;0) dt "Main, Kerry" wrote in message news:C72D63EB292C9E49AED23F705C61957BD0BEE22B4C@G1W0487.americas.hpqcorp.net... > -----Original Message----- > From: David Turner, Island Computers [mailto:dturner@no-spam- > islandco.com] > Sent: July 12, 2007 12:06 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS > > ok > > that works > > answer that if you can, y'all ! > > ;0) > > > dt David, You likely are aware of this, but the vast majority of OpenVMS Customers have few if any of their folks that hang out in newsgroups like c.o.v., hence any sample you get will be a small one at best. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:40:50 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: <6_yli.4499$mS3.2152@trnddc03> Rich Jordan wrote: > On Jul 12, 7:40 am, "David Turner, Island Computers" islandco.com> wrote: > >>Please .... if you have an Itanium running VMS or soon will have in a >>commerical environment we would love to hear from you. >> >>We are not trying to accrue contact names etc, just trying to get an idea of >>how many users are transitioning or will transition to Itanium VMS >> >>-- >>David B Turner >>Island Computers US Corp >>2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 >>Savannah GA 31404 >> >>T: 877-6364332 x201 >>Intl: 001 912 447 6622 >> >>E: dtur...@islandco.com >>F: 912 201 0402 >>W:http://www.islandco.com >> >>-- >>David B Turner >>Island Computers US Corp >>2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 >>Savannah GA 31404 >> >>T: 877-6364332 x201 >>Intl: 001 912 447 6622 >> >>E: dtur...@islandco.com >>F: 912 201 0402 >>W:http://www.islandco.com > > > > One in use here, but just starting. We have two customers looking at > moving on from Alpha so we needed it here to be ready for them. We > also want to try some of the newer tools (like netbeans) which our > Alpha is too strained to support well. > > We still need to decide if we're going to leave it standalone and keep > the Alphaserver and the MicroVAX clustered, or if we de-cluster the > VAX and cluster the itanium. > Similar situation, except our intended customer postponed a decision until the next fiscal year, but in the meanwhile we ported the app over and are using it for other stuff... It's a development system, not a production system, and we just clustered it in with our Alphas and single remaining VAX. It may not be officially supported in a cluster with VAXes, but it works fine. (Some issues with MON CLUS and the VAX can't see all the files on ODS-5 disks, but those are really V8.x vs. V7.3 issues, rather than Itanium vs. VAX issues.) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 05:38:06 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS Message-ID: Russell E. Owen wrote: > P.S. the lack of a VMS svn client has been very painful. Did you see http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=3D07/02/07/7115309 ? I haven't looked at it (yet), so I have no idea whether it's usable outside of a Java environment. cu, Martin -- = One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martin= v/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 21:58:58 GMT From: "Niels S. Eliasen" Subject: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Message-ID: Hi I have just aquired an Alphastation 200/233 .. and would like to install VMS on it... (Just for old time's sake....) What are the gotcha's in doing this? -- kind regards/mvh Niels ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:14:10 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Message-ID: <1184278450.538747.136830@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 4:58 pm, "Niels S. Eliasen" wrote: > Hi > I have just aquired an Alphastation 200/233 .. and would like to install VMS on it... > (Just for old time's sake....) > What are the gotcha's in doing this? > > -- > kind regards/mvh > Niels Niels, Really, there are no obstacles. I would recommend verifying that you are running the SRM console, and I would verify that the console firmware is the last one issued. Then boot from the CDROM and away you go. On the hardware end, I would recommend investigating upgrading the memory capacity to the maximum supported, particularly if you are planning on playing with a Java or other related tools. A second disk is also a good idea. In any event, the AlphaStation 200 series is a good workhorse system. It does not make too much noise, burn too much power, or take up too much space. It is also generally compatible with many of the KVM switches made for PC systems, so it is possible to avoid having more monitors, keyboards, and mice than necessary. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 23:38:42 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Message-ID: Niels S. Eliasen wrote: > ok ....two questions... > 1. I akways dread dealing with firmware.... how do I make certain I do not > fall into some bear-trap with firmware that needs to be upgraded and > then won't > .. ?? This scares me as well, however, I've never had any problems with the AS200. > 2. Perhaps a lame question.... How do I check whether I use the SRM > console ? Blue background with white letters? "SHOW DEV" works? Isn't ARC at least semi-graphical (I've only seen it long enough to switch my PWS 433au to the SRM console. IIRC, the SRM prompt is >>> Zane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:41:09 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Message-ID: <4696CA25.1946C0CB@spam.comcast.net> "Niels S. Eliasen" wrote: > > On 2007-07-12, Bob Gezelter wrote: > > On Jul 12, 4:58 pm, "Niels S. Eliasen" > konsult.com> wrote: > >> Hi > >> I have just aquired an Alphastation 200/233 .. and would like to install VMS on it... > >> (Just for old time's sake....) > >> What are the gotcha's in doing this? > >> > >> -- > >> kind regards/mvh > >> Niels > > > > Niels, > > > > Really, there are no obstacles. I would recommend verifying that you > > are running the SRM console, and I would verify that the console > > firmware is the last one issued. > ok ....two questions... > 1. I akways dread dealing with firmware.... how do I make certain I do not fall into > some bear-trap with firmware that needs to be upgraded and then won't .. ?? You'll need to find out the current firmware version. This should appear in the banner just before the "P00>>> " prompt. That said, be aware of how much memory the machine has. Sometimes before a firmware upgrade you must increase the size of the "heap" that the SRM uses when loading. Trouble is, it's not documented as far as I know. Google around for that, also. > 2. Perhaps a lame question.... How do I check whether I use the SRM console ? Well, if you get "P00>>> " prompt, that's the SRM. If you get a blue-screen with a menu or other text on it, that's likely to be the ARC - don't want that. Google around - there's plenty of info about on how to change it to SRM. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:32:25 -0500 From: Chris Scheers Subject: Re: Install VMS on a Alphastation 200 ? Message-ID: <5fodiqF3dbh12U1@mid.individual.net> Niels S. Eliasen wrote: > Hi > I have just aquired an Alphastation 200/233 .. and would like to install VMS on it... > (Just for old time's sake....) > What are the gotcha's in doing this? There is one possible "gotcha" that I know of. According to DEC's documentation, an AlphaStation 200 has enough flash memory to hold both the ARC and SRM firmwares. You can switch between them with keyboard commands and reboots. A good number of AlphaStation 200s were sold with "half-flash". These only have enough memory to hold ARC or SRM, but not both. If you have a half-flash machine with ARC, it can be changed to SRM, but it is a bit tricky. To switch a half-flash machine, you need to do a firmware upgrade, even if you are at the latest version. Check the firmware upgrade directions for the exact incantation necessary. FWIW: All of the half-flash machines I know of came from Onsale a while back. They were part (all?) of a special order of machines that never got deployed. There are two empty PLCC sockets. They can be converted to full flash machines by putting the correct chips in these sockets. I don't remember the chip number anymore, but it is the same as the other two nearby flash chips. Likewise, my AlphaStation 255 is half-flash. Can that be converted to full flash? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com Fax: 817-237-3074 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:00:48 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <1184195489.370869.129160@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > >>On Jul 11, 3:02 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >>>In article <4694c...@mvb.saic.com>, >>> Mark Berryman writes: >>> >>> >>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>>>In article <8nUH01ZJY...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, >>>>> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>>> >>>>>>In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>>ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>>>>>>V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >>> >>>>>> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that >>>>>> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was >>>>>> done at VMS 3.0. >>> >>>>>> Or are my old grey cells misfiring? >>> >>>>>I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal >>>>>how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is >>>>>a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely >>>>>reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, >>>>>logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal >>>>>use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? >>> >>>>Pressing the Break key would terminate any process running and initiate >>>>the login dialog. If the user pressed the Break key to begin a login >>>>session, the attempt you describe would be thwarted. >>> >>>We know that. But the unsophisticated users of the period did not. >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>>So you ask, "So what happens if the user sees a login prompt and doesn't >>>>press the Break key but just starts typing"? The answer is: the same >>>>thing that happens today on Windows desktops, users typically do not >>>>press ctrl-alt-del if the login prompt is already on the screen - they >>>>just start typing. >>> >>>True. >> >>What about the fact that the Username prompt normally times out? While >>not everyone will catch on, this is an additional clue that the >>Username prompt that's still sitting there by the time the user gets >>to it. Yeah, many will miss that, but it's still a clue. > > > And how many Business Majors are going to know that? Remember, this > is a time when VMS still held sway in academia. It is not all CS > students (or faculty) it's everyone. This is the machine they get > their email on and the only way to read it is logon and run MAIL. > These are not geeks or even nerds. These are ver non-computer > literate, average users. Some seeing a computer for the first time. > > >>>>In both cases it is a matter of user education. When I managed VMS >>>>systems with thousands of interactive users, new users were provided >>>>with instructions that included the need to start with pressing the >>>>Break key and why. >>> >>>And how many of them actually read the instructions or understood them? >> >>Too bad for those that didn't! > > > Don't know much about human nature, huh? :-) Among all the other > crap they have to do for the first time as college students those > instructions probably rank pretty low. All they want to do is > read their email in case the professor has sent them something > they need to know before the next class session. They don't want > to become computer geeks, just read their email. > > >>>> When terminal servers were added to the mix, we also >>>>taught users how to tell if one was creating a new session or joining an >>>>existing one. These instructions tended to be sufficient. >>> >>>Unless your audience was considerably more sophisticated than the average >>>1980's college student (or faculty for that matter) they probably shook >>>their heads up and down and then proceeded to not press the break key. >>> >>>The only point of all of this was not who did what and how effective those >>>methods were it was to show that contrary to popular belief int his group >>>VMS was successfully attacked by various methods. Granted, the methods >>>were as unsophisticated as the users, but they, nonetheless, worked. >>>The only question that remains (and will have to remain unanswered for >>>obvious reasons) would VMS really have remained as relatively unsullied >>>as it has if it had not faded into realtive obscurity before the user >>>community (and the associated hacker community) became more sophisticated. >> >>Yeah, but isn't this not terribly far from social engineering? Didn't >>some ex-DEC employee trick a still-DEC employee into giving him one or >>more passwords? >> >>This is hardly the fault of the OS. > > > So then why is it MS fault that all the users don't know not to run > everything from an administrator account? And, again even that isn't > the point. The point is no one has ever claimed that any other OS > is and always has been immune from this. Only VMS fanatics. > > bill > No, if anyone got fooled by this, it is *not* the user's fault. It is *definitely* not VMS's fault. It is *YOUR* fault for failing to properly educate the users before providing them with their usernames and passwords. Unlike many other O/S's, VMS provides (and has provided for decades) an absolutely foolproof way to get a clean login. You type BREAK first. Since logging in is the first thing you have to do to use the system, it should be the first thing in the instructions. The instructions should say "Always type BREAK to get a fresh USERNAME: prompt before logging in. Even if the USERNAME: prompt is already displayed on the terminal, still type BREAK. This is to keep someone from stealing your password." And the instructions should emphasize password security through out, right from page 1, paragraph 1. A password stealing trojan is not a security fault in the O/S (unless there is no way to circumvent one if it is already running.) It is social engineering, pure and simple. It is convincing people to violate normal security procedures by telling them a convincing, but false, story. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:01:14 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184270474.141005.195600@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 8:17 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <1184191252.652185.181...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > > > > BTW, the break key got me a few "the computer keeps crashing" calls > > when the console was set to go to >>> on break and/or when the console > > terminal was turned off (don't remember which machines --- DEC > > installed the systems and they seemed to like that console setting --- > > maybe PDP's or early Alpha?) > > Consoles should not be accessable to folks who are not properly > trained. That's why we have locks on our computer room doors. > > Also keeps out those who are trained, but not authorised. They > probably know how to do the things you don't want them to do, they > may even be capable of reading FAQs. Of course what you say is true, but Mr. Reality doesn't always listen to Mr. Should. As I recall after thinking about it, one such event was happening to a small Alpha with a four-user license (I think) and the computer and console and user terminals were all in the accounting office. To them, the console was just a "handy" terminal to use when the others were occupied (4 user license = 4 users + console = 5 logins.) and someone wanted to run a report or do a quick inquiry. It was their machine, and it was their budget. Telling them they should buy more licenses at $190 or whatever per (and I think a 4-pack was the least you could buy then) wasn't met with great enthusiasm. I've stated my position (in old discussions here and elsewhere) regarding DEC's user-licensing practices and it's nice to see that HP has finally "seen the light." (hope it's not too late) Just as in Bill Gunshannon's situation, if procedures are allowed to get sloppy, they will. Especially so in small installations where there is *no* in-house computer expertise. Back before I could access every systems remotely, I was constantly amazed by the things I found when I made a site visit. Well, That's Life. (Sinatra:-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:08:24 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > John Santos writes: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>>In article <1184030627.421742.326360@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, >>> AEF writes: >>> >>> >>>>On Jul 9, 8:58 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>In article , >>>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On 07/09/07 15:44, AEF wrote: >>>>>>[snip] >>>>> >>>>>>>A Unix admin who used to work here once claimed he could break into my >>>>>>>VMS boxes. I gave him the IP address of one of my test boxes and said >>>>>>>go ahead. He never broke in and he never mentioned it again. >>>>> >>>>>>If VMS were as popular in 2007 as it was in 1987 (when breaking into >>>>>>VMS systems was a favorite college pastime), he'd have had a dozen >>>>>>tricks up his sleeve. >>>>> >>>>>Well, I have always avoided bringing this up, but I guess it is time. >>>>>I have constantly heard the claim that there has never been a virus >>>>>or a trojan on VMS. When I first got to the University we were still >>>> >>>>*I* didn't make that claim. >>> >>> >>>Didn't say you had, I did say I "contantly heard" it. It has been >>>flatly stated here as fact too many times to even count. >>> >> >>For some values of "constantly", which occasionally equals "never"... >> >>I have heard the claim that there have only ever been 2 VMS viruses, >>both proof of concept (and neither of which would work with current >>versions of VMS), which were never extant in the wild. >> >>I have *never* heard the claim that there has never been a trojan >>on VMS. In fact, I think the existence of fake loginout trojans was >>the reason that SET TERMINAL/SECURE_SERVER was invented. > > > Short or selective memory. How about as recently as June 6, right here? > > "Lets not forget that VMS have never been hit by hackers, virus and > Trojan for over 30 years and still ticking." > Okay, I'm short on selective memory. I don't know who said this. Who the F*** did? If it was Boob, go away for a week and come back when you have something to say that isn't totally pointless. Otherwise, please ask the person who made this claim to retract or clarify or justify it. Don't come after the 99.99% of us who know the difference between "never" and "almost never". > bill > > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:15:44 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: AEF wrote: > On Jul 11, 1:04 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >>In article <1184098978.766888.177...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> >> >>>On Jul 10, 3:00 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>> >>>>In article <1184091535.554932.208...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, >>>> AEF writes: >> >>>>>On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, >>>>>> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>>>>>Bob Koehler wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>>>>>>>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >>>>>>>>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >> >>>>>>>> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >> >>>>>>>ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>>>>>>V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> >>>>>>Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but >>>>>>they certainly wouldn't have back then. >> >>>>>I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log in. >> >>>>So did I. But what about the 4000 computer illiterate students and >>>>several hundred computer illiterate faculty? Remember, this is over >>>>10 years ago. The INTERNET, for all intents and purposes, does not >>>>even exist yet and most people arriving at college have never had to >>>>use a computer before. There are not PC's in every room of the house!! ;-) >> >>>Tell them, too! (See below.) >> >>You really have no experience dealing with a university environment, do you? > > > Hi Bill! > > Not in the IT dept. I have a Ph.D. in physics. > > >>>>>That's the solution! Don't just set the Break feature: Tell the users >>>>>they have to press the Break key. >> >>>>Tell them when? When do you think you are going to be given the >>>>opportunity to hold a class on computer use for everyone? >> >>>Include it with the Username / Password instructions. >> >>Which no one will read. > > > Then it's their own fault. ... Too bad. > > >>>them a username and password, no? >> >>Sure, but you can't make them read the instructions. > > > So then it's the user's fault. What's your point? That you can lead a > horse to water ...? > > OK, you're saying that you can't put something in the operating system > that's 100% idiot-proof against password grabbers. So? > > >>> Tell them then. >> >>If oyu mean tell them in person, I don't see any of my users til the >>first time they have a problem or cause one. :-) > > > Then tell them when all else fails, read the instructions! > > >>> Besides, unless >>>these spoof programs are running continually, most users won't get in >>>at all without learning the Break sequence, so they'll be foreced to >>>learn it then. >> >>No, it runs once, it exits after the first time someone types their >>userid and password into it. It then returned the terminal to normal >>use. If it didn't exit after the first time even an idiot would have >>figured out something was wrong. > > > I meant that if things weren't so bad that someone kept running around > terminal rooms putting his password grabbers up. > > >>>>> :-) Ya know, most of the time you >>>>>log in you're not getting the password grabber so unless you have the >>>>>bad luck to do your first login in a password grabber and not know to >>>>>press the Break key, you'll be forced to learn to use the Break key in >>>>>time. >> >>>>>Well, like you said about programmers and languages, it's a poor >>>>>workman who blames his tools. >> >>>>I wasn't blaming the tools. The tools are what made it possible. :-) >>>>I was only pointing out the fact that contrary to popular belief >>>>VMS can have security problems, too. I have had it pointed out >>>>to me that user would notice when he logged in that VMS would not >>>>inform him of the failed login so he would then know he had been >>>>spoofed. I would hope you can see the problem with this, but in >>>>case you can't, how would the computer illiterate even know he was >>>>supposed to get the message? >> >>>Yes, there have been security problems with VMS. My impression is that >>>they've been few and far between. The same can't be said for Windows. >> >>Well, I would need to see some statistics comparing number of problems >>to number of systems and users. 50 trojan attacks on VMS would be >>statistically more sugnificant than 5000 on windows based on the sheer >>numbers involved. I know there were more than 50 incidients here in the >>first semester I worked here. > > > I'm talking the number and severity of security problems, not the > number of actual attacks. Of course more systems gives more attacks. I > was taking that into account in my statement. You're trying to pull a > fast one here, eh? :-) > > >> >> >>>Include the login-failure point with the Username/password >>>instructions. OK, many won't get that, but most will be forced to >>>learn the Break sequence. Anyway, this is not a problem specific to >>>VMS! >> >>Of course it isn't. But noone else is claiming imunity. > > > Then what is your point? You said there was this grabber-program > problem. I said VMS had a defense for it. You said it only worked if > the users knew about it. Well, if the users can't be bothered to learn > something so simply that's just too bad for them. These users probably > are unprivileged anyway, so it's not like the system itself is > vulnerable. > > >>>>And trying to teach/train faculty is even harder and less likely. >>>>You can offer the class, but you can't make them attend it. Something >>>>about herding cats..... >> >>>OK, but again, this is not a VMS-specific problem. >> >>>>>Many users of Windows recently didn't know not to open attachments >>>>>without being certain it was from a trusted source. And I recall that >>>>>many didn't know about spoofing and phishing and the like. >> >>>>And the largest majority still do not. I have people here, CS faculty, >>>>who are constantly sending out messages with things like: "visit this >>>>funny webpage." I know I just delete them, but how many of the other >>>>faculty do you think just blindly go there. And these are supposed to >>>>be the ones who know how things like computers and the INTERNET actually >>>>work!! >> >>>Not a VMS-specific problem. >> >>No, but it shows how hard it is to teach people about the common >>platform. Now thing about trying to teach the same people about >>an obscure platform. People today are much more computer literate >>and savvy and yet they still fall for the simplest of schemes. >>Expecting that better luck would have been possible when they were >>much less savvy is just plain silly. > > > People would probably pay more attention when learning the obscure > platform, no? > > All this completely ignores standard newbie behavior anyway. They get their instructions for logging in. The follow them step by step because they know if they don't, the computer won't work. They use the cheat sheet. The refer to it every time they log in, until they've got it memorized. If it says, type BREAK even if you already see the username: prompt, that's exactly what they'll do. It isn't the computer-illiterate newbies that are the problem. It's the know-it-all's who already have experience on insecure operating systems. (I know this isn't exactly a followup to anything Alan said, but I wanted to get my 2 cents in on the subject.) >>>>>So how did other OSes handle the password-grabber problem and when? >> >>>>No idea. But I can tell you that I, personally, know how to do the >>>>same thing for Unix, Primos and CTS under Exec8. :-) Not that I >>>>would ever do something like that, :-) >> >>>>>My Break adventures at the remote lab date back to 1987 so the Break >>>>>feature was certainly available by then. >> >>>>All it required was knowledge. Something the majority of computer >>>>user in the late 80's lacked. >> >>bill >> >>-- >>Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >>b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >>University of Scranton | >>Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > > > AEF > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:33:46 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fnoibF3dsgb1U1@mid.individual.net> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Kerry, > >> One thing I have always liked about OpenVMS is that on logon, >> it states when you last logged on - both interactively and via > [non-inter]. >> At least that is one way which can be used to flag the user that >> someone else may have access their account. > > Now imagine that after clicking on a web page and enetering your VMS > credentials you could be presented with that very same information > (including login failures since last successful login) - Now that'd be > bloody useful! *Well wouldn't it?* And it would be very easy to write a program to do that on VMS (I'm not offering! ) to query the SYSUAF and return that information. You could implement it via whatever hook your VMS middleware requires, like a service under TCPIP/IP (or a DECnet object) if you want, or you if the VMS system is running a web server, it could run under that. > If only there was some middleware out there that let you do this. . . For someone who does serious programming like yourself, it seems like less than an afternoon's worth of design and coding. :-) -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:18:49 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/12/07 09:29, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <$ppMxrFkHlRD@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <5fl9phF3cdmnbU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> In article <1184196830.456916.24640@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >>> Doug Phillips writes: >>>> I thought it was interesting that in one of the experiments all but >>>> one chimp exhibited altruism --- a relative of yours maybe? (I hope >>>> you know I'm just kidding;-))) >>> >>> Are you referig perhaps to Jane Goodall's research? Sadly, research >>> into gorilla behavior was quite different and finally shot down the >>> myth that only man killed indiscriminately and without a reason. But >>> then, maybe both are wrong as we also have learned that merely observing >>> changes behavior. :-) >> Will you ever venture near reality? Gorillas are not chimps. > > I know they're not. They are however primates. And if you are > going to compare man to a lower order primate in order to draw > conclusions about man why limit yourself to just the ones that > exhibit the behavior you wanted? Isn't that like hand-picking > your sampling in statistics? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae http://nmnhgoph.si.edu/msw/ Chimps, gorillas, orangutans & *humans* are all Great Apes. According to the current classification system. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:30:15 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184265015.204447.44640@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 12:46 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/11/07 18:48, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Jul 11, 6:27 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/11/07 18:14, Doug Phillips wrote: > > >>> On Jul 11, 6:03 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>> On 07/11/07 14:58, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>>> [snip] > >>>>> The Governments of France, Germany & Russia stood up for sanity but > >>>>> were criticized for having "vested interests" and close dealings with > >>>>> Iraq. 'Okay,' I thought at the time, 'so if they know more about Iraq > >>>>> than we do, why aren't we listening to them?' > >>>> "vested interests" doesn't mean "they know more about Iraq than we do". > >>>> It means "they have selfish reasons for wanting to keep Saddam in > >>>> power". > >>> It says that they have (or, had) close association with the subject. > >>> Unless you think they held those vested interests blindly (in which > >>> case, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying;-). > >> Blindly??? Of course not. > > >> But it sure as hell wasn't charity or the milk of human kindness. > > >> It was *MONEY*, man, *money*. You've got to be old enough to > >> remember "follow the money". > > > Really? Was it money? Of course it was money. So *what* of the > > motivation. You still think France, Germany and Russia were *wrong* in > > taking the stance they did? You think they didn't have a bit more > > "insider" knowledge of what was going on in Iraq than the US? Get > > real. They supported the UN inspection efforts 100% and we didn't. If > > there had been WMD's, they wanted them eliminated --- okay, to protect > > their selfish interests, then? We were wrong then, and if you can't > > see that they were right, then I don't know what else to say. > > Deception. > > After UNSCOM said, "woo hoo! we've found it all!", Hussein Kamel > defects and spills his guts and tells "us" (the US, and the UN > including UNSCOM) that they've found *squat*. > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/unscom/experts/defector... > > If the Iraqis deceived "us" once, what's to stop them from deceiving > us again? > > > Just how old do you have to be to remember "follow the money" anyway? > > Is that something Jack Benny said? I don't know. I'm so old that in > > order for me to remember anything new I have to forget something. > > /All The President's Men/ > "Follow the money" has been a rule of investigation used since there has been such a thing. ATPM didn't invent the concept. That money drives most things is a fact that I suspect most people realize. Actually, Freud and his like took it to another level, but we won't get into that. Anyway, I remember what happened preceding the invasion, what was in the news, and the feelings of that time. I *do* pay attention to current events and I haven't lost *all* of my marbles yet;-) Like I said: We already had "feet on the ground" and "eyes in the sky" and had pulled the teeth of that tiger back in '91. That fact was presented in the UN inspectors reports, all of them, and we have since validated their reports. There was no justification for our attack and Kamal was believed because the administration *wanted* to believe him. All other real intel said "no WND's" but W dismissed it --- and we know why. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:37:44 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184265464.656803.28570@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 9:29 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <$ppMxrFkH...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > In article <5fl9phF3cdmn...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> In article <1184196830.456916.24...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > >> Doug Phillips writes: > > >>> I thought it was interesting that in one of the experiments all but > >>> one chimp exhibited altruism --- a relative of yours maybe? (I hope > >>> you know I'm just kidding;-))) > > >> Are you referig perhaps to Jane Goodall's research? Sadly, research > >> into gorilla behavior was quite different and finally shot down the > >> myth that only man killed indiscriminately and without a reason. But > >> then, maybe both are wrong as we also have learned that merely observing > >> changes behavior. :-) > > > Will you ever venture near reality? Gorillas are not chimps. > > I know they're not. They are however primates. And if you are > going to compare man to a lower order primate in order to draw > conclusions about man why limit yourself to just the ones that > exhibit the behavior you wanted? Isn't that like hand-picking > your sampling in statistics? > Please don't read the article. You might then actually post something that's relevant. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:46:41 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184266001.980899.55580@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 4, 2:56 am, Didier_Toulouse wrote: > HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY to my US Friends ! > Thank you, Didier. Since I probably won't be on line much Saturday, have a happy F=EAte du 14 juillet! **** It seems even the sweetest sentiment can be turned sour. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:16:17 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184271377.936177.9250@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 2:30 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/12/07 13:30, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Jul 12, 12:46 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/11/07 18:48, Doug Phillips wrote: > > >>> On Jul 11, 6:27 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>> On 07/11/07 18:14, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 11, 6:03 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>>>> On 07/11/07 14:58, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>>>>> [snip] > >>>>>>> The Governments of France, Germany & Russia stood up for sanity but > >>>>>>> were criticized for having "vested interests" and close dealings with > >>>>>>> Iraq. 'Okay,' I thought at the time, 'so if they know more about Iraq > >>>>>>> than we do, why aren't we listening to them?' > >>>>>> "vested interests" doesn't mean "they know more about Iraq than we do". > >>>>>> It means "they have selfish reasons for wanting to keep Saddam in > >>>>>> power". > >>>>> It says that they have (or, had) close association with the subject. > >>>>> Unless you think they held those vested interests blindly (in which > >>>>> case, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying;-). > >>>> Blindly??? Of course not. > >>>> But it sure as hell wasn't charity or the milk of human kindness. > >>>> It was *MONEY*, man, *money*. You've got to be old enough to > >>>> remember "follow the money". > >>> Really? Was it money? Of course it was money. So *what* of the > >>> motivation. You still think France, Germany and Russia were *wrong* in > >>> taking the stance they did? You think they didn't have a bit more > >>> "insider" knowledge of what was going on in Iraq than the US? Get > >>> real. They supported the UN inspection efforts 100% and we didn't. If > >>> there had been WMD's, they wanted them eliminated --- okay, to protect > >>> their selfish interests, then? We were wrong then, and if you can't > >>> see that they were right, then I don't know what else to say. > >> Deception. > > >> After UNSCOM said, "woo hoo! we've found it all!", Hussein Kamel > >> defects and spills his guts and tells "us" (the US, and the UN > >> including UNSCOM) that they've found *squat*. > > >>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/unscom/experts/defector... > > >> If the Iraqis deceived "us" once, what's to stop them from deceiving > >> us again? > > >>> Just how old do you have to be to remember "follow the money" anyway? > >>> Is that something Jack Benny said? I don't know. I'm so old that in > >>> order for me to remember anything new I have to forget something. > >> /All The President's Men/ > > > "Follow the money" has been a rule of investigation used since there > > has been such a thing. ATPM didn't invent the concept. > > > That money drives most things is a fact that I suspect most people > > realize. Actually, Freud and his like took it to another level, but we > > won't get into that. > > > Anyway, I remember what happened preceding the invasion, what was in > > the news, and the feelings of that time. I *do* pay attention to > > current events and I haven't lost *all* of my marbles yet;-) > > > Like I said: We already had "feet on the ground" and "eyes in the sky" > > and had pulled the teeth of that tiger back in '91. That fact was > > presented in the UN inspectors reports, all of them, and we have since > > validated their reports. There was no justification for our attack and > > Kamal was believed because the administration *wanted* to believe him. > > That's just out and out *wrong*. > > From the above pbs.org link: > > Hussein Kamel's defection tells UNSCOM that not only have > they been missing something, but they've been missing a > huge, huge amount of what they were supposed to be finding. > Way more than they had ever suspected. Their worst nightmare > scenario was eclipsed by the documents on this chicken farm, > and it meant the beginning of a major new phase of biological, > missile, chemical, and nuclear investigations. > I don't see the part of what I said that you've shown to be wrong. What Kamel told anyone should have been held suspect just based on the man's character. Quoting one thing he said proves nothing new, I'd say. The "mobile labs" turned out to be a real threat, too, didn't they? Study the man's history a bit more and get back to me. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 16:00:45 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > Chimps, gorillas, orangutans & *humans* are all Great Apes. > According to the current classification system. Well, at least we're in good company. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:55:00 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184277300.788157.263140@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 3:28 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/12/07 15:16, Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Jul 12, 2:30 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/12/07 13:30, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>> On Jul 12, 12:46 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>> On 07/11/07 18:48, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 11, 6:27 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>>>> On 07/11/07 18:14, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 11, 6:03 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 07/11/07 14:58, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>>>>>>> [snip] > >>>>>>>>> The Governments of France, Germany & Russia stood up for sanity but > >>>>>>>>> were criticized for having "vested interests" and close dealings with > >>>>>>>>> Iraq. 'Okay,' I thought at the time, 'so if they know more about Iraq > >>>>>>>>> than we do, why aren't we listening to them?' > >>>>>>>> "vested interests" doesn't mean "they know more about Iraq than we do". > >>>>>>>> It means "they have selfish reasons for wanting to keep Saddam in > >>>>>>>> power". > >>>>>>> It says that they have (or, had) close association with the subject. > >>>>>>> Unless you think they held those vested interests blindly (in which > >>>>>>> case, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying;-). > >>>>>> Blindly??? Of course not. > >>>>>> But it sure as hell wasn't charity or the milk of human kindness. > >>>>>> It was *MONEY*, man, *money*. You've got to be old enough to > >>>>>> remember "follow the money". > >>>>> Really? Was it money? Of course it was money. So *what* of the > >>>>> motivation. You still think France, Germany and Russia were *wrong* in > >>>>> taking the stance they did? You think they didn't have a bit more > >>>>> "insider" knowledge of what was going on in Iraq than the US? Get > >>>>> real. They supported the UN inspection efforts 100% and we didn't. If > >>>>> there had been WMD's, they wanted them eliminated --- okay, to protect > >>>>> their selfish interests, then? We were wrong then, and if you can't > >>>>> see that they were right, then I don't know what else to say. > >>>> Deception. > >>>> After UNSCOM said, "woo hoo! we've found it all!", Hussein Kamel > >>>> defects and spills his guts and tells "us" (the US, and the UN > >>>> including UNSCOM) that they've found *squat*. > >>>>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/unscom/experts/defector... > >>>> If the Iraqis deceived "us" once, what's to stop them from deceiving > >>>> us again? > >>>>> Just how old do you have to be to remember "follow the money" anyway? > >>>>> Is that something Jack Benny said? I don't know. I'm so old that in > >>>>> order for me to remember anything new I have to forget something. > >>>> /All The President's Men/ > >>> "Follow the money" has been a rule of investigation used since there > >>> has been such a thing. ATPM didn't invent the concept. > >>> That money drives most things is a fact that I suspect most people > >>> realize. Actually, Freud and his like took it to another level, but we > >>> won't get into that. > >>> Anyway, I remember what happened preceding the invasion, what was in > >>> the news, and the feelings of that time. I *do* pay attention to > >>> current events and I haven't lost *all* of my marbles yet;-) > >>> Like I said: We already had "feet on the ground" and "eyes in the sky" > >>> and had pulled the teeth of that tiger back in '91. That fact was > >>> presented in the UN inspectors reports, all of them, and we have since > >>> validated their reports. There was no justification for our attack and > >>> Kamal was believed because the administration *wanted* to believe him. > >> That's just out and out *wrong*. > > >> From the above pbs.org link: > > >> Hussein Kamel's defection tells UNSCOM that not only have > >> they been missing something, but they've been missing a > >> huge, huge amount of what they were supposed to be finding. > >> Way more than they had ever suspected. Their worst nightmare > >> scenario was eclipsed by the documents on this chicken farm, > >> and it meant the beginning of a major new phase of biological, > >> missile, chemical, and nuclear investigations. > > > I don't see the part of what I said that you've shown to be wrong. > > What Kamel told anyone should have been held suspect just based on the > > man's character. Quoting one thing he said proves nothing new, I'd > > say. The "mobile labs" turned out to be a real threat, too, didn't > > they? Study the man's history a bit more and get back to me. > > If the Saddam gov't hid a *LOT* from The Hallowed UN Inspectors at > one little chicken farm, what else could they have been hiding in > who-knows-how-many-other chicken farms? > That's the argument W used. They did it then, so they could still be doing it. >From a CNS article about a presentation of our surveillance on said "chicken farm" : ### The first slide shows an image of the Haidar farm, commonly known as the chicken farm. You see on this picture, taken on 26 July 1995, that containers have been brought to this farm, which belongs to Hussein Kamal, the son-in-law of Saddam Hussein. The containers can be seen there, between two sheds. There are about ten of them. Iraq has since claimed that these containers were used to transport the annual potato harvest. However an examination of imagery for previous years, as well as the years since 1995, revealed no indication that such containers or for that matter any like them, were present for his purpose at the Haidar Farm. On 8 August 1995, Hussein Kamal left the country On 9 August, as seen on the next slide, there are no more containers in front of the farm. A lot of trucks are coming in and out. Boxes and crates are stacked up in this location, near where the Commission eventually discovered boxes and crates of similar dimensions containing documentation relating to Iraq's past proscribed weapons programs. On the third slide, you see a picture taken on 19 August, a day before the arrival on the spot of the Executive Chairman and his team. You can see that there are no more trucks or containers. In one of those containers present when UNSCOM inspected the site, documents on the biological program were found, along with documents pertaining to all areas of Iraq's proscribed weapons programs. . ### Read the last part of the last sentence again. That happened in August of 1995. Millions of pages of documents were found, some quite damning. Saddam admitted that Iraq had WMD programs on-going during the years after the '91 war. Instructions to move and hide materials and move or destroy secret documents were also found. But, all this happened long before the current mess started, and the later UN inspections found that there was no evidence of *real* and *current* on-going WMD development. There were suspicions and rumors. The laboratories that were found then and more recently had not been in use for years, and no on-going programs have been discovered. And, we've now had eyes and feet in a great deal more of Iraq. Were his later failures to report *everything* actually intended deceit or just a symptom of the chaotic state of his government? Maybe a little of both? None of what happened then can justify our invasion. Kamal hadn't even been in Iraq for years and had little if any new inside knowledge --- a few rumors maybe. His "help" was not offered for altruistic reasons (which would have mattered little if he had told only the truth.) Read more about the man and tell me if you'd buy a used car from him;-) Our concerns did justify an escalation of our support for more exhaustive inspections and a "measured" increase of military presence to back the inspectors. I said so then, and I say so now, and the current situation speaks for itself. Did Saddam try to keep secrets? Sure. Did he finally realize his covert WMD effort wasn't worth the bother? Probably. Did some of the "evidence" get moved to Syria or elsewhere? More than likely. Have we found a history of evil and deception in Iraq? Sure. But, what would we find in *any* nation were it to be placed under such a microscope. And there is as much or more blatant "evil" being done in the world now, today, as any we've so far found in Iraq. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:30:50 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184297450.147384.128230@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 12, 9:54 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/12/07 20:25, JF Mezei wrote: > > > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> Hussein Kamel's defection tells UNSCOM that not only have > >> they been missing something, but they've been missing a > >> huge, huge amount of what they were supposed to be finding. > > > During the buildup to the War, the USA was asked by the UN to provide > > any/all of the evidence the USA claimed it had of WMDs in Iraq. The UN > > inspectors checked out EVERY report given by the USA and found nothing. > > > And after the invasion, the USA weren't even able to plan WMD evidence > > Plan? Or /plant/? > > > and also had to conclude that there was none. > > > HINT: those defectors to the USA got paid by the CIA and the Massad to > > provide any/all evidence they could invent to stain Hussein and help > > with the Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Cheney war justification. > > And if, since they *didn't* plant false evidence, and since the > "investigation group" (or whatever they were called) sat in front of > a Republican congress and freely admitted that there were no WMDs, > maybe, just *maybe*, the neo-cons truly believed that there were WMDs. > > Soon after that testimony, Chris Matthews (no right-winger he!!!) > stated (and I was watching him say it) "(Saddam and his pals) > ginned up a war with an empty gun." > > If Saddam had thrown open the doors and stopped stone-walling > UNSCOM, the neo-cons wouldn't have been able to feed off of the > mistrust and bad behavior by the Saddam gov't. > Something else we agree on! By the time we "shocked and awed" Saddam, he was like a tiger with its teeth and claws pulled; no longer as dangerous, but still a tiger. He ruled by strength and ego, and acquiescence was not in his nature. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:28:06 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Linux (was Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS) Message-ID: On 07/12/07 08:29, Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > David Turner, Island Computers wrote: >> Please .... if you have an Itanium running VMS or soon will have in a >> commerical environment we would love to hear from you. >> >> We are not trying to accrue contact names etc, just trying to get an >> idea of how many users are transitioning or will transition to Itanium >> VMS >> >> > So far we have 6 running OpenVMS and 3 running SUSE Linux. I expect the > rest of the production systems (3) to be gone by year end. Why run Linux on Itanium? Any particular affirmative reason, or just because you have the boxes and didn't want to waste assets? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:09:31 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: John Smith wrote: > HP should have also blown up current Solaris and AIX > configurations -- configured as fairly as any of the others - as part of the > demo. Maybe even a zOS config too. Keith.... does HP have any extra C4 to > do this? NTS (National Technical Systems, http://ntscorp.com/) supplied the C-4. If someone paid them to blow up Sun and IBM systems, they'd happily provide the explosives. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:02:21 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Solved: SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000 - cannot connect to serial of rj-45 po Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > USB is not peer to peer. You have a "server" which provides the polling > and power, and the clients which wait for the polling. Sorta. Check the OTG extensions. There's a host and a target, yes, and the classic USB stuff did/does assume the host and the target would have fixed roles, but various current USB V2.0 gear can negotiate which end is the host; see the OTG extensions and the mini-A/B connectors. Philips/NXP has/had various A/B OHCI chips here. Alternatively, and though nobody I've yet seen has both a USB B-gazouta and an A-gazinda on the same box, dragging wires both ways is also feasible for bi-directional communications over USB. As for alternatives, FireWire can offer target disk mode, which is a way to reverse the direction of the connection on FireWire IEEE 1394 wiring. Haven't looked at SAS in this regard; the underlying SCSI itself can be multi-initiator, depending on the bus. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:31:46 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Solved: SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000 - cannot connect to serial of rj-45 port r Message-ID: <4696C7F2.D7BFAEE0@spam.comcast.net> Anton Shterenlikht wrote: > > > I'm trying to setup SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000. > > When I use serial port I just get > > > > # cu -l /dev/cuad0 > > Connected > > > > I used the same null modem (cross-over) cable to connect to serial ports > > on ds10l and rx2620 with no problems. > > I'm an idiot, I missed "This cable must be a straight through cable" in > the manual. > > On a side note, this RS232 is a very tricky thing - so many options. > Somebody recently ordered a book on RS232 for our library - the whole > book just on RS232 - amazing! Yes - unlike M$ dictates, RS232 and friends actually *ARE* published standards! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:39:05 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <4696BB99.7E6DC602@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Not relevant, since we do not set off car bombs, hijack commercial aircraft, or > > anything of the sort. > > Humm, You can sometimes fix that by replacing the filter capacitor, unless you have a leaky diode... > I recall a certain saudi that got training an funcing from a US > organisationcalled the CIA to do just that. I need not name him. So, who did it? Us or him? > You are naive if you really think that the USA doesn't do nasty stuff to > further its public rethoric. [snip] Go back and re-read the earlier post, and I believe that takes care of itself. See especially the paragraph that begins "Yes, as corrupt and despicable as our government has become..." and the ones which follow. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:45:42 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/12/07 18:43, David J Dachtera wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/10/07 20:17, David J Dachtera wrote: >> [snip] >>> ...which brings us back to the discussion of what can be done vs. >>> what should be done. Given the MIB's tendency to go "ape shit" >>> these days, I'm not sure I'd want to be "seen" in a public forum >>> fomenting insurrection and/or siding with the sworn enemies of >>> the U.S. >>> >>> Hope you don't plan any air travel anytime during the remainder >>> of your lifetime... >> >> Bill can rant all he wants about the evils of our government, and I >> *guarantee* you that no MIBs are going to visit him and he'll be >> able to fly anywhere in this country he wants. > > Go back and re-read the earlier post and you should notice that was not the > point: > > David J Dachtera wrote: >> ... I'm not sure I'd >> want to be "seen" in a public forum fomenting insurrection and/or >> siding with the sworn enemies of the U.S. > > Big difference. Then what did "Hope you don't plan any air travel..." refer to? >> How do I know? >> >> If the MIBs were that out of control, 3/4 of the people who >> regularly participate on the Daily Kos and all the tens (hundreds?) >> of thousands of people who horribly vilify W on a daily basis would >> have been detained by now. >> >> But they haven't. > > Vilify "dubya" all you want - he and his lackeys deserve it and then some. Just > don't make threats or side with the enemy. > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:49:35 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <4696E83F.E938B10B@spam.comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 07/12/07 18:43, David J Dachtera wrote: > > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/10/07 20:17, David J Dachtera wrote: > >> [snip] > >>> ...which brings us back to the discussion of what can be done vs. > >>> what should be done. Given the MIB's tendency to go "ape shit" > >>> these days, I'm not sure I'd want to be "seen" in a public forum > >>> fomenting insurrection and/or siding with the sworn enemies of > >>> the U.S. > >>> > >>> Hope you don't plan any air travel anytime during the remainder > >>> of your lifetime... > >> > >> Bill can rant all he wants about the evils of our government, and I > >> *guarantee* you that no MIBs are going to visit him and he'll be > >> able to fly anywhere in this country he wants. > > > > Go back and re-read the earlier post and you should notice that was not the > > point: > > > > David J Dachtera wrote: > >> ... I'm not sure I'd > >> want to be "seen" in a public forum fomenting insurrection and/or > >> siding with the sworn enemies of the U.S. > > > > Big difference. > > Then what did "Hope you don't plan any air travel..." refer to? You CAN'T be serious???!!! You're not that dumb, Ron! Read it again, and read further on down here. You'll get it. Keep your brain turned on and believe in yourself. You'll get it. > >> How do I know? > >> > >> If the MIBs were that out of control, 3/4 of the people who > >> regularly participate on the Daily Kos and all the tens (hundreds?) > >> of thousands of people who horribly vilify W on a daily basis would > >> have been detained by now. > >> > >> But they haven't. > > > > Vilify "dubya" all you want - he and his lackeys deserve it and then some. Just > > don't make threats or side with the enemy. There's your clue, right there! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.379 ************************