INFO-VAX Sat, 07 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 368 Contents: Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) IA64 clusters with eva Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Printing pre-setup (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) SEARCH: expected result? Re: SEARCH: expected result? Re: SEARCH: expected result? Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS Re: XMODEM for VMS [OT] Re: July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:38:46 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468FB386.E86D8BDC@spam.comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: > >> But if you have scripting requirements that are beyond a normal > >> level of DCL, then installing something extra should not be a > >> problem. > > > > Never worked in a U.S. Gov't (FDA) regulated industry, have you? > > No. > > But if the kit was available official from HP, then I assume > that even the FDA could be convinced. Time is a luxury we often we don't have. Gov't == snail -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:28:54 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468f6ae8@mvb.saic.com> David J Dachtera wrote: > Mark Berryman wrote: >> David J Dachtera wrote: >>> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>> David J Dachtera wrote: >>>>> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>>>>> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years >>>>>>> ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) >>>>>> If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. >>>>>> >>>>>> More and better control structure, more data types, extension >>>>>> mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think it will happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> A server shell language is not a sales point today. >>>>>> >>>>>> If a VMS user wants something else, then they can >>>>>> look at Perl or Python. >>>>> Which of those ships as part of the base o.s. and so is guaranteed to be found >>>>> on every VMS installation, past and present? >>>> None. >>>> >>>> But if you have scripting requirements that are beyond a normal >>>> level of DCL, then installing something extra should not be a >>>> problem. >>> Never worked in a U.S. Gov't (FDA) regulated industry, have you? >> I have. It wasn't a problem. It simply required a few more steps to >> get the necessary software installed. The length and difficulty of >> those steps was determined mainly by whether or not installing the >> software involved a cost to the government, secondarily by whether or >> not they perceived that the software in question imposed a risk. >> >> Case in point, the last time I was involved in this, I had no problem >> getting permission to install ZIP (which was free) but it took >> considerably longer to get approval to install a TCP/IP stack (which >> wasn't free). > > My point centered more on certification than procedure. If, for example, perl > were going to be used to extend the application at some level in the back-end > server tier, certification issues could easily arise. Very true. If Perl were to become part of the application then certification would definitely be involved. However, if the purpose of installing Perl was simply to aid in system administration and maintenance and was separate from the application, then it is a simple matter of following procedure to get permission. On the other hand, having dealt with a number of government projects, one can easily be reminded that faceless governments are really made up of individual people. Some of those people will say "sure, once you've shown it helps and doesn't interfere with the application, use whatever gets the job done better". Others will say "I bought this system with a particular application and nothing else will touch it no matter what your reasons are". In my experience, it depends as much or more on what kind of person you are dealing with than whether it is a government-related contract or not. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 09:11:10 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: July 6, 2007 11:25 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > On 07/06/07 20:49, Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- From: Arne Vajh=F8j > >> [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] Sent: July 6, 2007 8:40 PM To: > >> Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha > >> market is so so quiet? > >> > >> Main, Kerry wrote: > >>>>> With 50-60% of all security issues being internal > >>>>> related, that is a huge risk. > >>>> I don't think so. > >>> How can one not think that having important or critical > >>> systems > >> with > >>> a huge number of outstanding and documented security patches > >>> is > >> not a > >>> risk to the business? > >> Answered twice - you apparently did not read it. > >> > > > > It just blows me away that anyone with DC or IT experience (that > > I know you have) would even attempt to argue that outstanding > > security patches are not a risk to the business. Anyway, moving > > on .. >=20 > Because most of those systems are internal and have controlled > access? >=20 Why is so hard for folks to understand that external access through = firewalls are only a minor part of the overall security issues?=20 Sure, that's what gets publicity, but that's not where the big breaches = typically occur. How do you ensure your employee laptops, PDA's, cell phones and memory = sticks that access external (home, airport, hotel, conference) and = internal networks almost every day and then get plugged directly into = your internal network do not have "buggies" that are designed to poke = these internal systems that according to you are not running the latest = security patches? Or perhaps you think the "buggies" these personal devices might pick up = on one of these external networks are dumb and would not be looking for = servers with known holes? =20 Ever run Ad-ware or Spybot on your laptop lately? Ever come up clean - = even with Norton or McAfee running? And PDA's do not even get scanned for bugs and trojans, even though they = are simply miniature Microsoft laptops (or Palm etc) that often use = wireless connections to connect directly to the network. > That "they" trust employees not to be malicious might be foolish, > but it makes my job easier to have full privs, and not having to > fill out a form with 3 paragraphs of justification why I need an > extra priv. >=20 > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA >=20 > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! So, you do not believe what security analysts state about 50-60% of = security incidents are internally initiated e.g. laptop, PDA, memory = stick, disgruntled employee (especially with mergers) etc.? Well that's fine, but med to large firms typically have a different = view. They take issues associated with ensuring their servers have the = latest security patches very seriously.=20 They understand the dangers associated with so many personal devices = coming from external networks and connecting directly to their internal = network with little recent scanning each and every day is a huge risk to = their servers and company data. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:21:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <761b2$468fafc3$cef8887a$9169@TEKSAVVY.COM> Ron Johnson wrote: > Well, I really don't think that Windows malware can infect Unix or VMS. Infect, probably not. But they can impose a heavy toll/load on them. Consider all the spam being sent by infected windows boxes acting on behalf of the commercial spammers. And when the big time viri were spreading via email, those large email messages coming in by the hundreds/thousands did impose quite a load of email servers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:29:12 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <002001c7c0b3$f42c2040$dc8460c0$@com> Also, buggers like Code-Red were known to bring down non-Windows HTTP servers not sufficiently prepared to face them. Also, remember history - the pesky Morris Wornm hit BSD & Sun systems, including a particular Vax/11-780 I needed. :) -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:22 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > Well, I really don't think that Windows malware can infect Unix or > VMS. > > Infect, probably not. But they can impose a heavy toll/load on them. > Consider all the spam being sent by infected windows boxes acting on > behalf of the commercial spammers. > > And when the big time viri were spreading via email, those large email > messages coming in by the hundreds/thousands did impose quite a load of > email servers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:22:32 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] >>Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:30 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> >>Paul Raulerson wrote: >> >>>Unfortunately, the message you sent arrived in HTML format, >> >>Not possible. Netscrape won't send HTML unless configured to do so. >>This one is configured for plain text only, even when replying to HTML >>or "quoted printable" Some of your postings are showing up in HTML and some in plain text. The HTML is very bothersome to character cell news readers. Most of the GUI news readers and mail clients can disable or defang the HTML so that it does not appear to be sent. Some of the GUI products have made it a serious quest to disable HTML e-mail. And in some cases it has been alleged that the mail server was actually converting all plain-text e-mail to HTML. And the behavior can vary greatly with the version of the same product. With some versions of Outlook, the reply in same format overrides the plain text setting in the address book, and it appears that the mail/news client then only had to see one HTML message in that session from that address or news group to start sending all subsequent messages in HTML. If you have access to a newsreader and server, you can look at your messages and the others. If you turn the HTML view on, you will see the difference. If you use a character cell news reader as many here do, you will see how bad HTML makes reading the news group. > > Ah- I think I discern the issue. I am not sending to a newsgroup, rather to > a mailing list. It is quite inconvenient for me to access a newsgroup in > many locations, while my e-mail follows me around like a loyal puppy. I > strongly suspect something in the gateway is causing you grief. I doubt it is in the gateway. Usually the only thing mail/news gateways do is strip HTML and attachments from postings that go through them. And if it were the gateway, it would be affecting much more than the handful of posters here that do send in HTML. If you have access to external ssh or telnet, then you can set up an account on encompasserve.org and use a character cell news reader to access this news group / mailing list. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:27:43 -0700 From: magalettac@hotmail.com Subject: IA64 clusters with eva Message-ID: <1183829263.498539.178160@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> Is there a step by step guide on building VMS clusters in an ia64 environment with dual eva0's. Questions I have 1. booting the vms server puts me into a fis mode to build VMS onlocal attached drives, do I need to do this first before I build on the EVA disks I would assume so because you would need information on the VMS system .ie. HBA card info and disks would need to be carved up so I could do this. I want this to be a homogenous cluster. 2. It is a 2 node cluster so do I need a crossover ethernet cable to be in the mix for cluster comminications like I do with Windows clusters ? 3. Is the multipath software part of version 8.3 of VMS software or do I need an add on like we use with Windows platforms. I am VERY familiar with standard ci clusters but this is new to me any information is greatly apprieciated. Thanks, Carmine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 02:39:07 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <3d27$468f353d$cef8887a$23917@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: > JF, > > Not sure what is wrong with your client or my client, but others have > reported being able to read my responses with no issues. Wrapping > included. > > The Outback 2007 client I use says Internet plain text format. *I* was able to read your post, I use Mozilla on VMS (aka: Netscape). However, I noticed you were not in a normal font, so I did a "view source" of your post and saw you were in base64 encoding. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 02:44:07 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <69c2e$468f3669$cef8887a$24437@TEKSAVVY.COM> David J Dachtera wrote: > Maybe I can get permission to post some T4 graphs on my freeware site to show > how the Alphas are currently doing - no promises. Actually, I am more interested in "big picture" general ideas on why your shop needs so much horsepower. Wouldn't most searches focus on a single patient (get his medical records) as opposed to finding all patients with a mole on the left arm? Or is it the fact that a patient's medical records contain a lot of data that results in high CPU utilisation ? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 07:33:41 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <3d27$468f353d$cef8887a$23917@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > Main, Kerry wrote: > > JF, > > > > Not sure what is wrong with your client or my client, but others have > > reported being able to read my responses with no issues. Wrapping > > included. > > > > The Outback 2007 client I use says Internet plain text format. > > *I* was able to read your post, I use Mozilla on VMS (aka: Netscape). > However, I noticed you were not in a normal font, so I did a "view > source" of your post and saw you were in base64 encoding. Perhaps "Internet plain text format" IS base64-encoded. After all, it IS plain text (in the sense that PostScript is also plain text); perhaps the "Internet" refers to base64-encoding. It says something like "plain text", to the user using the Microsoft stuff it looks like plain text, so he assumes that it IS plain text. At the other end, for someone who has the gall to use non-Microsoft software which, however, does respect the corresponding RFCs, it looks strange, garbled etc. Many people will be told to get a Microsoft (or "industry standard") browser and things will be OK (leaving aside the whole issue of whether one should be reading newsgroups with a web browser in the first place). This is the Microsoft business model---disrespect the standards and lead people into thinking that standard-conforming stuff looks OK only with the Microsoft stuff. Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad. How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? Zero; they just redefine darkness as the industry standard. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 06:32:27 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468F6BBB.5040308@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: > >> Maybe I can get permission to post some T4 graphs on my freeware site >> to show >> how the Alphas are currently doing - no promises. > > > Actually, I am more interested in "big picture" general ideas on why > your shop needs so much horsepower. > > Wouldn't most searches focus on a single patient (get his medical > records) as opposed to finding all patients with a mole on the left arm? > If you are doing medical research, that query might be a very real one! A lot of medical research is based on statistics and correlating the people with moles on the left arm and amputations of the left arm for cancer. How do you think they make the case that taking Vioxx can increase your risk of having a heart attack? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:55:32 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468FA964.98D9FCB6@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Maybe I can get permission to post some T4 graphs on my freeware site to show > > how the Alphas are currently doing - no promises. > > Actually, I am more interested in "big picture" general ideas on why > your shop needs so much horsepower. > > Wouldn't most searches focus on a single patient (get his medical > records) as opposed to finding all patients with a mole on the left arm? Be careful about comparing Google/Yahoo! to multi-tier healthcare applications. For example: EVERY time the user's GUI needs to populate a drop-down list is likely to generate a query to the associated database table(s) to collect all the valid entires, which may be further filtered by applicability rules which themselves may generate more queries... and that is, of course, after the patient's data is called in from multiple database tables and the fields on the window populated. Also, just like on some javascript-driven browser windows, a choice in one drop-down list may determine the available choices in one or more other drop-down lists, which generates more and more and more ... database queries. It's actually kinda mind blowing after a while... One place I worked, a co-worker remarked that he was amazed at how everything worked, to which I responded that I was amazed THAT everything worked ... well, most of the time it worked, anyway. > Or is it the fact that a patient's medical records contain a lot of data > that results in high CPU utilisation ? The bulk of the CPU power is eaten up by Oracle on the database node and Cerner's code on the other nodes. The database node runs 1200 to 1500 points (out of 1600 max.) during peak times. The others generally peak circa. 1350 or so. Remember that this does not include transient spikes that MONITOR collector and/or T4 may miss or disregard. You may be assuming that databases/applications are optimized for best performance. They're not. Such things tend to be written, somewhat debugged, certified and then "released into the 'wild'". If it happens to run efficiently, it's fluke. If it runs at all, the burden for supplying enough resources to keep it running falls on the customer (hospital). -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:56:41 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468FA9A9.79AC0BAE@spam.comcast.net> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > >> I replied to JF privately. > >> > > > > I can confirm receiving a private reply to my question. > > > > Out of curiosity though, what determines the computing capacity needed > > for a hospital ? > > > > I take it no hospital is large enough to have "transactions per second" > > in the X-ray department ? Nor would they have stadium style turnstyles > > at the admissions office processing patients per second ? > > > > Now do they measure surgeries in "surgeries per second"... > > > > Or is this really a question of having many many smaller "applications" > > (from admissions to medication inventories), none of which require great > > amounts of CPU horsepower, but when put together they do ? > > I think it's mostly medical and business records and the two might not > go on the same computer. The billing department needs to know that you > had an X-ray but not the radiologist's findings. The medical staff > needs access to the patient's medical history and records but is not > concerned with how much the patient is charged for each medication or > procedure. > > A hospital system might have anywhere from several dozen to several > hundred simultaneous users. ...or, in our case, several thousand. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:57:46 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468FA9EA.F37CC247@spam.comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 07/06/07 20:31, David J Dachtera wrote: > [snip] > >> > >> $ help mount/bind > >> > >> MOUNT > >> > >> /BIND > >> > >> /BIND=volume-set-name > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > He wants stripe-sets (RAID-0). > > Close enough for government work? Maybe you forgot the smiley there, eh? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:58:48 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468FAA28.EB35CA60@spam.comcast.net> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > > John Vottero wrote: > > "Ron Johnson" wrote in message > > news:sNyji.1747$JR6.878@newsfe18.lga... > > > >> On 07/06/07 15:05, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> > >>> Unfortunately, the message you sent arrived in HTML format, and to > >>> take it to text means I have to do exactly as you did - cut and > >>> paste. Netscape doesn't do HTML or RTF? Let me introduce you to > >>> Safari... Anyway, if I did screw up on the cut/paste job below, it > >>> wasn't intentional. :) > >> > >> > >> And this email that you sent was also HTML. (Netscape has been doing > >> HTML mail since at least v2.) > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >>> > >>> I'm impressed by VMS - even if trying to get it to do simple things > >>> can be - complex. For example, talk to a laserjet out a parallel > >>> port, and compress the print so as to print 132 column listings in > >>> the right size. > >> > >> > >> Do Alphas and VAXes (much less Itaniacs) even *have* parallel ports? > >> We plugged our laser printers into LAT servers. > >> > >>> Or better yet, HOW do you tell initialize to make four or five > >>> identical drives into a RAID-0 array and write 64mb stripes on each > >>> drive? > >> > >> > >> Easy: MOUNT/BIND. > >> > >> VMS has had it since at least 1989, and probably earlier. > >> > > > > MOUNT/BIND creates a bound volume set which is NOT the same as RAID0. > > Creating a RAID0 array from two disks will give you a volume with twice > > the space and roughly twice the transfer rate of a single disk. A bound > > volume set will give you twice the space but very little (if any) > > performance improvement. > > > > $ MOUNT /BIND > does create RAID sets. It needs more qualifiers; e.g. > $ MOUNT /BIND DSA123 /SHADOW=(......) That's still only a volume-set made up of multiple shadow-sets, not RAID-0. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:59:40 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468FAA5C.80473D31@spam.comcast.net> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > > >>$ HELP MOUNT/BIND > > > > > > That's VOLUME-sets, not stripe-sets. > > > > But MOUNT /BIND DSA123 /SHADOW= is?????? ...a volume-set made up of shadow-sets. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 16:46:45 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article <3d27$468f353d$cef8887a$23917@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei > writes: > > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > > JF, > > > > > > Not sure what is wrong with your client or my client, but others have > > > reported being able to read my responses with no issues. Wrapping > > > included. > > > > > > The Outback 2007 client I use says Internet plain text format. > > > > *I* was able to read your post, I use Mozilla on VMS (aka: Netscape). > > However, I noticed you were not in a normal font, so I did a "view > > source" of your post and saw you were in base64 encoding. > > Perhaps "Internet plain text format" IS base64-encoded. After all, it > IS plain text (in the sense that PostScript is also plain text); perhaps > the "Internet" refers to base64-encoding. > > It says something like "plain text", to the user using the Microsoft > stuff it looks like plain text, so he assumes that it IS plain text. At > the other end, for someone who has the gall to use non-Microsoft > software which, however, does respect the corresponding RFCs, it looks > strange, garbled etc. > > Many people will be told to get a Microsoft (or "industry standard") > browser and things will be OK (leaving aside the whole issue of whether > one should be reading newsgroups with a web browser in the first place). > This is the Microsoft business model---disrespect the standards and lead > people into thinking that standard-conforming stuff looks OK only with > the Microsoft stuff. > > Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad. > > How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? Zero; > they just redefine darkness as the industry standard. There's a pretty comprehensive article entitled "Configuring Mail Clients to Send Plain ASCII Text". It covers all manner of clients: http://www.expita.com/nomime.html -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:37:43 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468FB347.3DA22F1D@spam.comcast.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 8:30 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately, the message you sent arrived in HTML format, > > > > Not possible. Netscrape won't send HTML unless configured to do so. > > This one is > > configured for plain text only, even when replying to HTML or "quoted > > printable" > > Ah- I think I discern the issue. I am not sending to a newsgroup, rather to > a mailing list. It is quite inconvenient for me to access a newsgroup in > many locations, while my e-mail follows me around like a loyal puppy. I > strongly suspect something in the gateway is causing you grief. Indeed. This is a known issue with Exchange ("Microsoft Mail Service"). > > > >...and my motivation to do what HP doesn't want done is ... what? > > > > > > You keep insisting you know what HP does an does not want done. Are > > you then > > > on HP's board or something? > > > > No; however, I'm neither blind nor stupid, either. > > > > > (I'm about half serious about that, do you have > > > some inside knowledge?) > > > > Even if I did, I couldn't breach those confidences. > > Never suggested you were stupid. Perhaps a little tunnel vision though. Most > people are allowed to say they are under non-disclosure or have other > reasons they cannot discuss confidential material. I was simply asking if > that was case with you - no insinuating any nefarious motives. Acknowledged. However, it is difficult to look at what is going on with VMS and paint any kind of optimistic picture, unless HP is somewhow "blowing sunshine up your skirt" as they we know they do with their employees, who then post it here in various forms. > > > > > One of my customers called up HP and they were eager as puppies to > > put him in > > > touch with a partner to sell him OpenVMS. > > > > Please attempt to recreate this most exceptional experience so we can > > tell > > others how to do it and make the exception become the rule rather than > > the other > > way around. > > > > Lead a horse to water... *I* did not put him up to it. It's real. It > happens. How? The great bulk of field experience tends in another direction. > > > Yes, they also mentioned they have > > > Windows and Linux and HP-UX on the Itanium box, but who wouldn't? He > > called me > > > to say he liked the idea of being a little special - as in VMS. And > > he had a > > > great comfort in it being HP. > > > > The reason why would be fodder for a multi-prong success story. Please > > correspond with Sue Skonetski. > > > > I don't know her. I have very few contacts into the HP world, and none of > those are at the technical level. Well, except for the kind people here that > is. :) You'll see Sue posting here. Google this group for her name. She manages the OpenVMS Ambassadors, among other things. > > > That's your average joe out there who runs a shoe factory of all > > things. > > > > Hhmmm... An "average joe" running a shoe factory. The word "paradox" > > comes to > > mind. > > > > ??? He *is* a average Joe -he isn't rich, or a politician; nor does he come > from a moneyed background. He is smart, and savvy, and a very interesting > person to be around. But then, so are an awful lot, even most of the people > I know. Come to Austin, I'll buy you a beer and introduce you to some of > 'em. > :) The "average joe" lacks sufficient financial acumen to even balance a checkbook, much less run a company with any degree of success. Successful people, no matter how modest they or their success may be, should recognized as such, and modelled by those "average joe"s who aspire to success. > [snipped most of the discussion about large/medium/small datacenters. Kerry > and David are automatically right in this area, because they know a hell of > a lot more about it than I do. I would love to talk to someone at a VMS data > center of that size though - would easily be work a steak dinner or so! ] Would it be worth a trip to Chicago? > > > >> Know anyone who does not know who HP is? > > > > > > > >Knowing who HP is is not the issue, knowing what they sell is the > > issue. > > > > > > Oh! But it IS. Knowing what they sell is OUR job, not the CUSTOMERS. > > > > Our job is to explain to the customers what they've seen in HP ads that > > never > > air/appear. > > No, that makes it easier perhaps. We disagree here, and will just have to > agree to disagree. From my point of view, you seem to be blaming HP for > things beyond their control. How is HP's refusal to market VMS in the mainstream media anyone's fault but their own? (Granted, the OpenVMS group may be "under corporate's thumb"; however, the fault then lies with "corporate", not with the OpenVMS Group.) > You also disagree with or discount the points I > brought up about HP being rather fundamentally different that say, IBM or > Sun. I certainly look at the company prospectus, annual report, press > releases, technical information / web sites / etc. and draw that conclusion. > Your milage may vary! Indeed. > [snip] > > > complex. For example, talk to a laserjet out a parallel port, > > > > Not really part of VMS's primary focus, but a good point, none the > > less. > > > > > and compress the > > > print so as to print 132 column listings in the right size. > > > > I find setting the orientation to landscape, selecting fixed-pitch font > > such as > > Courier and pitch to circa 12cpi to be rather effective. > > Actually, I want line printer font at 16.66cpi, 8 lines per inch, and 84 > lines on a portrait page. Ooohhh... Too unreadable for me (think ADA: low vision). > I know the PCL to set that up, and indeed, I know > how to do it PostScript. What I don't know how to do is to tell VMS that is > what I want. Pass the text through A2PS first. That's what I do (taking a WhineBloze tack, rather than a UN*X one). > [snip] > > > > > Or better yet, HOW > > > do you tell initialize to make four or five identical drives into a > > RAID-0 > > > array and write 64mb stripes on each drive? > > > > Better to be done on the array than via the host, really. > > > > INITIALIZE will set up RAID-1 (shadow-)sets for you so they don't do a > > full-copy > > when first MOUNTed, but does not provide for striping (RAID-0) "out of > > the box". > > > > VMS does not do this? Is there some underlying technical reason? Not the o.s.'s job. Better to spend CPU cycles on more productive work and let the array handle such things (RAID, snap-clones, etc.) > Raid-0 > striping provides significant advantages in terms of IO balancing and speed. Speed? Certainly. I/O balancing? What is your thinking there? I'd never have made that association with striping. All stripe-set members get "hit" the same to retrieve/write all the necessary chunks for any given I/O operation, AFAIK - no "balancing" involved. Read I/O balancing DOES occur in shadowing, however, so long as the shadow-set is in a stable condition. > I do NOT like Shadowing - waste of expensive DASD. ...and array-based RAID-1 is ... what? (BTW: Disk prices are falling rapidly, except in the "legacy" after-market where they are rising alarmingly these days.) > I tend to configure disks > into arrays of 8, 5+2 plus one spare. I get the speed I want, especially in > read intensive online and batch applications, and I get data protection. I > have had DASD units die off, and not notice it until the CE came in to > replace the thing. I'm very sure HP units have the same capabilities. Your're talking RAID-3/5 or similar. Write penalty is intolerable in our shop, except where writeback caching (on the array) can compensate. [snip] > > Heck, I never > > > saw em proposed against *windows* machines. And this is in over 300 > > proposals > > > dealth with in the past 28 years. > > > > How many of those applications were actually AVAILABLE on OpenVMS? > > ...on Tru64? > > Well now, isn't that precisely the point I was asking? Why are developers > not writing new applications for VMS? I believe that's been covered in extensive depth repeatedly over the course of the past many years here in this group. Google Groups is your friend: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms?hl=en -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:28:05 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: July 7, 2007 11:38 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 [snip...] > > > > Well now, isn't that precisely the point I was asking? Why are > developers > > not writing new applications for VMS? >=20 > I believe that's been covered in extensive depth repeatedly over > the course of > the past many years here in this group. Google Groups is your > friend: >=20 > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms?hl=3Den >=20 For the latest in partner OpenVMS Integrity applications, one can always go to the following site: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/partners/index.html (click on the various letters for vendor app's) Regards ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:33:39 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: July 7, 2007 2:39 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > JF, > > > > Not sure what is wrong with your client or my client, but others > have > > reported being able to read my responses with no issues. Wrapping > > included. > > > > The Outback 2007 client I use says Internet plain text format. >=20 > *I* was able to read your post, I use Mozilla on VMS (aka: > Netscape). > However, I noticed you were not in a normal font, so I did a "view > source" of your post and saw you were in base64 encoding. Ok, the plot thickens .. after Paul provided the earlier pointer on plain text formatting, it led to the following Microsoft KB on the types of plain text formatting: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=3Dkb;EN-US;q278134 "How to Override the Encoding Type by using a Registry Key" Unfortunately there was no InternetMailTextEncoding key in Outlokk 2007, but there was a key called "AutoFormatPlainText" - I modified it to =3D = 3, so we shall see if it makes any difference in my subsequent replies. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 13:39:34 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468FCFD6.9060208@comcast.net> David J Dachtera wrote: > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > >>John Vottero wrote: >> >>>"Ron Johnson" wrote in message >>>news:sNyji.1747$JR6.878@newsfe18.lga... >>> >>> >>>>On 07/06/07 15:05, Paul Raulerson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Unfortunately, the message you sent arrived in HTML format, and to >>>>>take it to text means I have to do exactly as you did - cut and >>>>>paste. Netscape doesn't do HTML or RTF? Let me introduce you to >>>>>Safari... Anyway, if I did screw up on the cut/paste job below, it >>>>>wasn't intentional. :) >>>> >>>> >>>>And this email that you sent was also HTML. (Netscape has been doing >>>>HTML mail since at least v2.) >>>> >>>>[snip] >>>> >>>> >>>>>I'm impressed by VMS - even if trying to get it to do simple things >>>>>can be - complex. For example, talk to a laserjet out a parallel >>>>>port, and compress the print so as to print 132 column listings in >>>>>the right size. >>>> >>>> >>>>Do Alphas and VAXes (much less Itaniacs) even *have* parallel ports? >>>>We plugged our laser printers into LAT servers. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Or better yet, HOW do you tell initialize to make four or five >>>>>identical drives into a RAID-0 array and write 64mb stripes on each >>>>>drive? >>>> >>>> >>>>Easy: MOUNT/BIND. >>>> >>>>VMS has had it since at least 1989, and probably earlier. >>>> >>> >>>MOUNT/BIND creates a bound volume set which is NOT the same as RAID0. >>>Creating a RAID0 array from two disks will give you a volume with twice >>>the space and roughly twice the transfer rate of a single disk. A bound >>>volume set will give you twice the space but very little (if any) >>>performance improvement. >>> >> >>$ MOUNT /BIND >>does create RAID sets. It needs more qualifiers; e.g. >>$ MOUNT /BIND DSA123 /SHADOW=(......) > > > That's still only a volume-set made up of multiple shadow-sets, not RAID-0. > No, that mounts and, if necessary, creates a shadow set. Forgive me for not looking up the exact incantation to create a RAID-0 set. I don't have the RAID software handy, I never needed it for my poor old Alphastation 200. . . . It has been many years since I worked with a system that had the necessary licenses. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 07:40:48 -0500 From: bradhamilton@comcast.net (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article , Bill Todd wrote: [...] >Actually, most of the hate developed only after our post-9/11 insanity >emerged (despite the fact that some of our actions in Kosovo were >considered excessive as well). > >Amazing how over a half-century of good will and (for the most part) >respect can be squandered so quickly, if a nation puts its mind to it. Not a nation - just an administration with a weak president, a wanna-be dictator as VP, and a complaisant population that largely refuses to vote about anything except who will be the next "American Idol" :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:06:59 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Brad Hamilton wrote: > In article , > Bill Todd wrote: > [...] >> Actually, most of the hate developed only after our post-9/11 insanity >> emerged (despite the fact that some of our actions in Kosovo were >> considered excessive as well). >> >> Amazing how over a half-century of good will and (for the most part) >> respect can be squandered so quickly, if a nation puts its mind to it. > > Not a nation - just an administration with a weak president, a wanna-be > dictator as VP, and a complaisant population that largely refuses to vote > about anything except who will be the next "American Idol" :-) Sorry: as a nominal democracy we are each individually responsible for the acts of our country - at least when they have gone on through multiple election cycles and no concerted effort to change them has become evident. We had opportunities to change course in both 2004 and 2006. In 2004 we voted to maintain the status quo, and so far at least any changes voted in in 2006 have been essentially cosmetic. The absence of widespread visible outrage in the American population after a half-decade of this crap properly indicts us in the eyes of the world. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:16:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Brad Hamilton wrote: > Not a nation - just an administration with a weak president, a wanna-be > dictator as VP, and a complaisant population that largely refuses to vote > about anything except who will be the next "American Idol" :-) When that nation re-elected that administration in 2004, with full knowledge of their lies (but still refusing to allow this to sink in), then from the point of the view of the rest of the world, the people of the USA condoned what that administration has done. Yes, there are a few educated individuals here and there who realised what was going on and were dead set against that administration. But the USA electoral system concluded that the majority of americans supported that administration and that is what the rest of the world sees. Electoral systems can be very unfair/weird. In Canada, the now opposition party chose a new leader. Neither of the 2 top candidates won the leadership, it was the 3rd one who did. As a result, the Liberals are now stuck with a boring, unelectable candidate who barely speaks english. So instead of immediatly topling the current minority government to force an election , the Liberals are letting the right wing Reform party continue to govern canada because they know they would lose an election if held with the current leader. The French system for presidential elections makes more sense: 2 rounds of voting. Only 2 survive the first round. This ensures that the leader is one of the 2 most popular persons. In the USA, the whole "primaries" process is still stuck in the horse carriage days except that now, voters in some states get to know the results of the election held in others states and hence this skews the votes. And in both the last democratic race and the liberal race in Canada, the winner wasn't chosen on electability, he was chosen based on his political ingenuity to win the votes AT THE CONVENTION. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:40:33 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <468FB3F1.AD892209@spam.comcast.net> Bill Todd wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Didier_Toulouse wrote: > >> HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY to my US Friends ! > > > > UFB... Even here we can see how hated the US has become since WWII. > > Actually, most of the hate developed only after our post-9/11 insanity > emerged (despite the fact that some of our actions in Kosovo were > considered excessive as well). > > Amazing how over a half-century of good will and (for the most part) > respect can be squandered so quickly, if a nation puts its mind to it. Saw a bumper sticker I liked: There's a village in Texas that's missing an idiot. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:01:19 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/07/07 10:40, David J Dachtera wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >> David J Dachtera wrote: >>> Didier_Toulouse wrote: >>>> HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY to my US Friends ! >>> UFB... Even here we can see how hated the US has become since WWII. >> Actually, most of the hate developed only after our post-9/11 insanity >> emerged (despite the fact that some of our actions in Kosovo were >> considered excessive as well). >> >> Amazing how over a half-century of good will and (for the most part) >> respect can be squandered so quickly, if a nation puts its mind to it. > > Saw a bumper sticker I liked: > > There's a village in Texas that's missing an idiot. That's soooo 2001. When Boob goes (went?) on his religious rants, he was shouted down. But when OT topics are politically fashionable, it's ok? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 05:05:07 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1183809907.484102.171240@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 8:08 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <94OdnXychoolWRfbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdn...@metrocastcablevision.com>, Bill Todd writes: > > > I have no doubt that there is pressure to *ship with* known bugs rather > > than take the time to eliminate them. I'm less convinced that they > > create them deliberately in order to make the next release more > > attractive - especially given the typical delay before a next release > > appears (during which the currently-selling product would be *less* > > attractive), and the fact that they actually attempt to fix bugs on the > > fly rather than just say "Fixed in next release". > > The pressure to include bugs is not of the form "you must include > bugs", it's the business model. > > Microsoft's business model assumes that the only real competition > they get is from their own products. This year's sales don't depend > so much on beating thier competitors as it depends on beating the > product they sold last year. (Most of thier potential customers are > running the last thing Microsoft shipped). This means new features > and fewer bugs. While other software vendors will put guarrantees While they do add new features, I question the "fewer bugs" part. At work we switched from Outlock 2000 to Outlock 2003 a while ago (I switched later than the others as I didn't like the new version and only got it when I had to get a new PC to replace my (more than usual) troublesome old PC) and often I wish I could "upgrade" back to the 2000 version. However, the name completion feature for the To and CC fields is very cool. And the new feature telling me that the client is attempting to read data from Exchange at least ostenibly tells me why it's hanging or "not responding", which it does just as often as the old version, if not more. > on thier features and ship bug fixes for free, Microsoft does not > put guarrantees on thier products and ships limited bug fixes, but > they'll sell you a new version with bug fixes next year. > > The pressure is due to next year's product having to have fewer bugs > than this year's product. Not malicious pressure, but real. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 02:57:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Message-ID: OK, I need to have a reality check here. A PowerPC G3, 450mhz from a MAC versus a DS10L EV6 at 466mhz. Both are circa 1999. The MAC is MUCH cooler. In fact, it doesn't have a blower on its CPU, while the DS10L does, and the air out of the mac is fairly cool while the air out the DS10L is HOT. Does the Alpha provide much more bang for the heat it produces considering it is roughly the same Mhz as the PowerPC chip ? (aka: smarter execution, pipelining etc) ? Or is the Alpha chip roughly the same performance, but has much worse power consumption/heat generation ? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:18:28 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > OK, I need to have a reality check here. > > A PowerPC G3, 450mhz from a MAC versus a DS10L EV6 at 466mhz. Both are > circa 1999. > > The MAC is MUCH cooler. In fact, it doesn't have a blower on its CPU, > while the DS10L does, and the air out of the mac is fairly cool while > the air out the DS10L is HOT. > > Does the Alpha provide much more bang for the heat it produces > considering it is roughly the same Mhz as the PowerPC chip ? (aka: > smarter execution, pipelining etc) ? > > Or is the Alpha chip roughly the same performance, but has much worse > power consumption/heat generation ? Well, since you have both machines available you might benchmark it yourself. From my humble measurements with PPC based IBM boxes (F50,43P) vs alphas (PWS,AS500) I'd say they are about on par (by extrapolation, since the IBMs max out at 375MHz). I'd be cautious, however, when one of the combatants is a notebook. I've seen G4 Mac notebooks running at 1.5 GHz not being significantly faster than those ancient IBM parts @ 3xx MHz. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 04:21:27 -0700 From: abbn90@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Message-ID: <1183807287.620941.275090@g13g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On 7 juil, 08:18, Michael Kraemer wrote: > JF Mezei schrieb: > > > OK, I need to have a reality check here. > > > A PowerPC G3, 450mhz from a MAC versus a DS10L EV6 at 466mhz. Both are > > circa 1999. > > > The MAC is MUCH cooler. In fact, it doesn't have a blower on its CPU, > > while the DS10L does, and the air out of the mac is fairly cool while > > the air out the DS10L is HOT. > > > Does the Alpha provide much more bang for the heat it produces > > considering it is roughly the same Mhz as the PowerPC chip ? (aka: > > smarter execution, pipelining etc) ? > > > Or is the Alpha chip roughly the same performance, but has much worse > > power consumption/heat generation ? > > Well, since you have both machines available you might benchmark > it yourself. > From my humble measurements with > PPC based IBM boxes (F50,43P) vs alphas (PWS,AS500) > I'd say they are about on par (by extrapolation, since > the IBMs max out at 375MHz). > I'd be cautious, however, when one of the combatants is > a notebook. I've seen G4 Mac notebooks running at 1.5 GHz > not being significantly faster than those ancient IBM parts @ 3xx MHz. you want to call any time from you pc to any phone and mobile free calling pc to phone,here is a liste of websites that give that servise ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:50:50 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Printing pre-setup (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <_nQji.19147$Fc.12272@attbi_s21> Paul Raulerson wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] >> >>Paul Raulerson wrote: >> > >>>complex. For example, talk to a laserjet out a parallel port, Worked very well the few times I tried it. I generally used terminal servers or printers with network cards. >>Not really part of VMS's primary focus, but a good point, none the >>less. >> >> >>>and compress the print so as to print 132 column listings in >>>the right size. Not two hard to do. >>I find setting the orientation to landscape, selecting fixed-pitch font >>such as Courier and pitch to circa 12cpi to be rather effective. > > Actually, I want line printer font at 16.66cpi, 8 lines per inch, and 84 > lines on a portrait page. I know the PCL to set that up, and indeed, I know > how to do it PostScript. What I don't know how to do is to tell VMS that is > what I want. It ain't BSD style LPR/LPD, CUSP, InfoPrint, RSA, BARR, or any > other system I am aware of. > And I tend to start simple. One little printer, one little port... :) I and others have posted that information before. I think that there is also information in the Ask The Wizard archive at HP. The basic steps to do this are documented in the system manager guide. First you create a device control text library, with each module doing a specific function. I use a different one for each model that I have to use, and one with empty modules for printers that can not be remotely programmed. You have a module for reset (to what should be default) and a module for each specific setting. While I needed separate device control files for LN03, LN05/6, and DCPS, I have only needed one device control library for all PCL printers. Then you create a print queue to that printer and associate the device control library with that queue. You can have it always do the reset module between jobs. Then you create a set of forms for each style of output that you will want, making sure that they all have compatible sheet definitions. By having separate device control libraries for each printer model that have all the model names, you can then use the same form name and get the desired result on different models of printers. For network printers, I also use "dummy" LTA devices that are spooled to the print queue, so that I can redirect output streams to them from applications that are not print queue aware. You can also access a spooled device through DECNET file notation. For network printers, you can also have multiple print queues pointing at them with different defaults. This is handy for software that knows how to specify a print queue, but not the attributes. Some gotchas: 1. On your test print page to verify your settings, put a test line of characters separated by tabs underneath a set of numbers making a ruler. The tabs (unless you specifically changed this) should be at every 8 characters. If this does not happen, then you need to find the flaw in your escape sequence. This has not been an issue for me on PCL, but has been an issue on LN03, LN05/6, and the DCPS/CPS ANSI translator. 2. If you share a printer with a certain PC based operating system, it may at the start of each and every print job change the power up defaults of the printer, particularly the margins and the duplex settings, so that a simple reset to power up will not restore the printer to the expected parameters. 3. Watch the sheet definition, margins, and wrap settings on your forms. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:32:24 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: SEARCH: expected result? Message-ID: The next line has some spaces at the beginning The previous line is empty SEARCHing for "" (empty string) gives: Files searched: 1 Buffered I/O count: 4 Records searched: 4 Direct I/O count: 1 Characters searched: 77 Page faults: 63 Records matched: 3 Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.00 Lines printed: 0 Elapsed time: 0 00:00:00.03 In other words, the difference between "Records searched" and "Records matched" gives me the number of completely blank records in the file. I suppose this could be useful. On the other hand, is it "consistent" that "" (empty string) is considered to exist in non-zero-length records, but not in zero-length records? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 15:43:48 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: SEARCH: expected result? Message-ID: <1183823028.214398.111770@g13g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Fwiw... it is consistent with the /KEY behaviour. $ cre tmp.txt 1 12 123 1234 $ sea /stat tmp.txt ""/key=(pos:3,size=999) 123 1234 Records searched: 5 Direct I/O count: 1 Records matched: 2 Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.01 $ sea /stat tmp.txt ""/key=(pos:1,size=999) 1 12 123 1234 Records searched: 5 Direct I/O count: 1 Records matched: 4 Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.00 $ sea /stat tmp.txt " 1 12 123 1234 Records searched: 5 Direct I/O count: 1 Records matched: 4 Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.00 $ $ perl -ne "$empty++ if /^$/}{ print qq($. lines, $empty empty.)" tmp.txt 5 lines, 1 empty. Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:46:23 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: SEARCH: expected result? Message-ID: <468FB54F.A9E0FF2D@spam.comcast.net> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > The next line has some spaces at the beginning > > > The previous line is empty > > SEARCHing for "" (empty string) gives: > > Files searched: 1 Buffered I/O count: 4 > Records searched: 4 Direct I/O count: 1 > Characters searched: 77 Page faults: 63 > Records matched: 3 Elapsed CPU time: 0 00:00:00.00 > Lines printed: 0 Elapsed time: 0 00:00:00.03 > > In other words, the difference between "Records searched" and > "Records matched" gives me the number of completely blank records in the > file. > > I suppose this could be useful. > > On the other hand, is it "consistent" that "" (empty string) is > considered to exist in non-zero-length records, but not in zero-length > records? Zero-length records contain no data to compare. So, yes, I'd consider that consistent. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:36:12 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > I've installed V8.3 on a system and configured TCPIP. However, when I > go to use ssh, I get a stack dump. > > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual > address=000000000000 > 0000, PC=00000000000EA240, PS=0000001B > > Improperly handled condition, image exit forced. > Signal arguments: Number = 0000000000000005 > Name = 000000000000000C > 0000000000000000 > 0000000000000000 > 00000000000EA240 > 000000000000001B > > Register dump: > R0 = 0000000000000000 R1 = 0000000000000014 R2 = 0000000000015E80 > R3 = 0000000000000000 R4 = 0000000000510B18 R5 = 000000000005AA40 > R6 = 0000000000000001 R7 = 000000000005AA40 R8 = 0000000000000001 > R9 = 0000000000000000 R10 = 0000000000000001 R11 = 0000000000000000 > R12 = 0000000000000001 R13 = 00000000004E8708 R14 = 00000000005199B8 > R15 = 0000000000519B60 R16 = 0000000000000000 R17 = 00000000000615E0 > R18 = 0000000000060C70 R19 = 0000000000000CF4 R20 = 0000000000015C78 > R21 = 0000000000000000 R22 = 0000000000519CA2 R23 = 0000000000000019 > R24 = 0000000000021999 R25 = 0000000000000001 R26 = 00000000000FD918 > R27 = 0000000000013EA0 R28 = 0000000000000000 R29 = 000000007AE26D50 > SP = 000000007AE26D40 PC = 00000000000EA240 PS = 000000000000001B > > Any suggestions? A long shot here, as the PC looks nothing like the example, but an access violation is documented in TCPIP056.RELEASE_NOTES. There are some other gotchas there too. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:39:32 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > >In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG >wrote: > >> I've installed V8.3 on a system and configured TCPIP. However, when I >> go to use ssh, I get a stack dump. >> >> %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual >> address=000000000000 >> 0000, PC=00000000000EA240, PS=0000001B >> >> Improperly handled condition, image exit forced. >> Signal arguments: Number = 0000000000000005 >> Name = 000000000000000C >> 0000000000000000 >> 0000000000000000 >> 00000000000EA240 >> 000000000000001B >> >> Register dump: >> R0 = 0000000000000000 R1 = 0000000000000014 R2 = 0000000000015E80 >> R3 = 0000000000000000 R4 = 0000000000510B18 R5 = 000000000005AA40 >> R6 = 0000000000000001 R7 = 000000000005AA40 R8 = 0000000000000001 >> R9 = 0000000000000000 R10 = 0000000000000001 R11 = 0000000000000000 >> R12 = 0000000000000001 R13 = 00000000004E8708 R14 = 00000000005199B8 >> R15 = 0000000000519B60 R16 = 0000000000000000 R17 = 00000000000615E0 >> R18 = 0000000000060C70 R19 = 0000000000000CF4 R20 = 0000000000015C78 >> R21 = 0000000000000000 R22 = 0000000000519CA2 R23 = 0000000000000019 >> R24 = 0000000000021999 R25 = 0000000000000001 R26 = 00000000000FD918 >> R27 = 0000000000013EA0 R28 = 0000000000000000 R29 = 000000007AE26D50 >> SP = 000000007AE26D40 PC = 00000000000EA240 PS = 000000000000001B >> >> Any suggestions? > >A long shot here, as the PC looks nothing like the example, but an >access violation is documented in TCPIP056.RELEASE_NOTES. There are some >other gotchas there too. I owe you a mega-beer! I agree that the documented stack dump doesn't look at all like the stack dump I was seeing; however, there was a problem with the SYSTEM identifier for the SYSTEM account. I assumed, when I saw just a [1,4] showing in directory listings, that they had deleted the SYSTEM ident- ifier. $ MCR AUTHORIZE UAF> MODIFY/IDENTIFIER SYSTEM/VALUE=UIC=[1,4] fixed the problem. I now need to discuss this with the client to find out why another account had the SYSTEM identifier assigned its UIC. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 2007 07:25:44 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > I owe you a mega-beer! I agree that the documented stack dump doesn't look > at all like the stack dump I was seeing; however, there was a problem with > the SYSTEM identifier for the SYSTEM account. I assumed, when I saw just a > [1,4] showing in directory listings, that they had deleted the SYSTEM ident- > ifier. > > $ MCR AUTHORIZE > UAF> MODIFY/IDENTIFIER SYSTEM/VALUE=UIC=[1,4] > > fixed the problem. > > I now need to discuss this with the client to find out why another account > had the SYSTEM identifier assigned its UIC. On a somewhat related note, in code I endeavor to use only the binary values of facility-specific identifiers, reducing the chance for system manager mistakes to undermine that particular step. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 16:12:39 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: ssh stack dumps on new V8.3 install Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > >>I owe you a mega-beer! I agree that the documented stack dump doesn't look >>at all like the stack dump I was seeing; however, there was a problem with >>the SYSTEM identifier for the SYSTEM account. I assumed, when I saw just a >>[1,4] showing in directory listings, that they had deleted the SYSTEM ident- >>ifier. >> >>$ MCR AUTHORIZE >>UAF> MODIFY/IDENTIFIER SYSTEM/VALUE=UIC=[1,4] >> >>fixed the problem. >> >>I now need to discuss this with the client to find out why another account >>had the SYSTEM identifier assigned its UIC. > > > On a somewhat related note, in code I endeavor to use only the binary > values of facility-specific identifiers, reducing the chance for system > manager mistakes to undermine that particular step. While there are quite a few people that claim that code should not expect that a username and an identifier of the same name have the same UIC, unfortunately it has become a requirement for a significant amount of software. As there is no supported API for doing a sequential lookup of the SYSUAF database by UIC, the method that almost all software uses is to use the documented and supported lookup up of the rightslist identifier name for it, and then lookup the SYSUAF record for that name. If there is a mis-match, then problems will occur. Currently the UAF lookup routines in the C runtime library make that assumption, and the third party open source code that I have seen to implement the same routines for VMS versions prior to those routines being added also make the same assumptions. I also see the same algorithm used in finding allegedly unused UIC and group numbers for the automatic creation of new accounts. I am aware of at least one security audit software package that will flag such problems in username and rightslist match ups. Due to the way that the Authorize utility copies and changes UICs on accounts, it is very easy for a new system mangler to cause this problem. Especially if they do not use command files to add users. Another issue is incompletely removing users, causing old identifiers to match different new user names. I resolve the issues there by never removing users, just disabling the accounts. As long as there is anything on the system that could be referencing that identifier, including log files, the SYSUAF record should be maintained. It is probably worth while to have a procedure to at least check that every UAF USER account has a unique UIC and a matching identifier, and to also make sure that every group also has a unique identifier assigned to it. I generally assign the identifier "VMS" to group 1 for consistency. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 2007 08:17:19 -0500 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: >> You might look into the old standby KERMIT. A quick scan of the >> documentation leads me to think it does XMODEM file transfers. > > I got caught by the same thing. The references to XMODEM are how to > download the kermit executable onto your VMS machine to get started. And > I think that XMODEM may be supported on the windows version. But it > didn't appear to be on VMS. > > I found some "VMODEM" software which required some editing and function > prototype declaration to compile (as well as checking of a 3 character > array being used as integer for terminal characteristics) and it SEEMED > to work. Spend 45 minutes downloading the image file for the switch only > to find the file to be corrupt. (a number of kilobytes bigger). I then > changed the "open" statement to add ctx=bin ctx=stm and got the transfer > going and this time, the file difference was < 512 bytes and the switch > was able to reboot. I made a callable version of this program 15 years ago, and the software using it is still running - we have a few clients who just don't seem to be able to update their software to get off of X.25 dialup (but since the X.25 network is shutting down the issue will soon be forced on them). vmodem.c is a rather ugly port of program umodem.c from the Unix world and needed extensive work to operate reliably. Assuming you can say that Xmodem ever operates reliably. Using single character ACK, NAK, and EOT packets with a half-duplex, rigidly defined timeout based retry scheme, just doesn't make it in a noisy world or in a world of unpredictable timings such as X.29 (telnet analogue) over X.25 , not to mention weirdness associated with error correcting modems [Ever try to configure an error-correcting modem so it will _not_ fall back to non-error- correcting mode? Ever try to find a way to get anything near deterministic timings?] Luckily, Xmodem does work OK with direct hardware links where you don't have timing oddities and where you typically have no problem keeping the noise level down to essentially zero data loss. A PC or a VMS host cannot guarantee response times given that they are running multiuser operating systems, but the 10 second timing designed into Xmodem is relaxed enough that a light to moderately loaded system has no problems meeting it. I don't recall your particular issue with vmodem, though. I thought vmodem was capable of transmitting and receiving binary properly, but perhaps that was _after_ I started modifying it. I would offer my working copy to you, but unfortunately, it appears that most of my changes were to my callable variant and not the stock vmodem.c . > I think VMS engineers should have really set a very strong strandard for > "binary" files on VMS from day 1 so that all apps that deal with file > transfer of binary files would have used that. When you have a file of > 1473 bytes, you should be reading only 1473 bytes. -- George Cornelius cornelius(at)eisner.decus.org cornelius(at)mayo.edu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 2007 08:34:23 -0500 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: In article <468e3091$1@mvb.saic.com>, Mark Berryman writes: >> Doing a SET FILE CONFIG.TEXT/ATTRIB=(RFM=STMLF,RAT=NONE) not only allows >> me to edit the config.text on VMS but safely send it back to the switch ! > > > There are many many reasons why I do not use the TCPIP services product > for VMS. In your various postings, you have hit on some of them. Since > you are running a hobbyist system, do yourself a favor and switch to > Multinet. Literally none of the problems I have seen you post about > exist in that stack (including this one). Actually, Mark, when it comes to ftp transfers UCX has traditionally done a better job than Multinet at transferring pure binary. I believe it was in picking up .OBJ files off DECUS tapes at your site that I most commonly saw the problem: Multinet considered "binary" to mean that only the _content_ was transferred and no count information - so the arriving .OBJ had no record information and no means of reconstructing it. Multinet to Multinet tended to work because Multinet had its own method of transferring the VMS attribute information. I could track down the thread here on EISNER in which I raised the issue and had one of the TGV folks admit it was a problem for them. UCX would serve up the file as pure bytes, and the file received at the other end only needed to be changed from STREAMLF to VARIABLE to be completely restored as a usable object file. This is one of the rare cases, at least prior to the current TCPIP Services product, where I have seen clear evidence of UCX being better at something than Multinet was. -- George Cornelius cornelius(at)eisner.decus.org cornelius(at)mayo.edu > Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:43:41 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: XMODEM for VMS Message-ID: <468FB4AD.4575432D@spam.comcast.net> George Cornelius wrote: > > In article <468e3091$1@mvb.saic.com>, Mark Berryman writes: > >> Doing a SET FILE CONFIG.TEXT/ATTRIB=(RFM=STMLF,RAT=NONE) not only allows > >> me to edit the config.text on VMS but safely send it back to the switch ! > > > > > > There are many many reasons why I do not use the TCPIP services product > > for VMS. In your various postings, you have hit on some of them. Since > > you are running a hobbyist system, do yourself a favor and switch to > > Multinet. Literally none of the problems I have seen you post about > > exist in that stack (including this one). > > Actually, Mark, when it comes to ftp transfers UCX has traditionally > done a better job than Multinet at transferring pure binary. I believe > it was in picking up .OBJ files off DECUS tapes at your site that I > most commonly saw the problem: Multinet considered "binary" to mean > that only the _content_ was transferred and no count information - > so the arriving .OBJ had no record information and no means of > reconstructing it. Multinet to Multinet tended to work because > Multinet had its own method of transferring the VMS attribute > information. I could track down the thread here on EISNER in > which I raised the issue and had one of the TGV folks admit it was > a problem for them. For various reasons, there are few ways to reliably transfer VMS .OBJ files other than via DECnet or physical media, unless those .OBJs are first "encapsulated" in .OLB or .ZIP files. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 11:02:45 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: [OT] Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/06/07 23:36, Bill Todd wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: >> Didier_Toulouse wrote: >>> HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY to my US Friends ! >> >> UFB... Even here we can see how hated the US has become since WWII. > > Actually, most of the hate developed only after our post-9/11 insanity > emerged (despite the fact that some of our actions in Kosovo were > considered excessive as well). > > Amazing how over a half-century of good will and (for the most part) > respect You're *joking*, right? > can be squandered so quickly, if a nation puts its mind to it. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.368 ************************