INFO-VAX Sun, 01 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 355 Contents: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac RE: Application transparent file encryption (supported)? Re: EVA/ Itanium question Re: expanding shadow size Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* RE: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: Question on FCS vs RMS on PDP11 RSX Re: Question on FCS vs RMS on PDP11 RSX Re: Question on FCS vs RMS on PDP11 RSX Question to Kerry Main RE: SOA and VMS stuff Re: SOA and VMS stuff Re: SOA and VMS stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:24:02 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <46871e3b$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > Yep, new tools and technologies are good, but one needs to understand > the bigger cultural and organization challenges when making major > directional changes. Those organizations not capable of changing will eventually go the way of the dinosaurs. > Usually, if there is a very strong centralized IT group, then SOA (or > DCE - SOA's older twin from the past) has a much larger chance of > success vs a distributed IT org. DCE is a specific standard. SOA is a concept. > As an example, for an enterprise SOA architecture strategy to be > successful, various Application and OPS groups in different Business > Units need to agree on how they will share code, libraries, Completely wrong. The whole point in SOA is to provide services independent of implementation behind the interface. > how they > will implement a common data security strategy, how they will handle > numerous different data model differences (that is where common data > dictionary failed), how will access to existing data be shared, how they > will handle common authentication and auditing, how they will > Operationally manage all of these different environments (monitoring, > managing, backups, archiving etc), how will they handle things like data > encryption, what will all of this mean to the network traffic bandwidth > etc... All theese problem (except the security aspect) are not SOA specific indeed SOA should make the problems smaller. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:30:33 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: And the question was? (Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com ac Message-ID: <46871fc3$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > Re: "modern developer" > > Well, if modern tools means SOA type technologies, then imho, I have to > smile at this. SOA is usually developed with the same tools as other stuff, so ... > While there are no doubt a few areas where these technologies might be > useful, the sad reality is that App developers and tools vendors are > telling the world "move to SOA or be lost forever", but they have no > idea of how really tough this is and/or the huge culture shift in their > entire business that this requires. > > Way to much hype, but "modern" App folks are off saying "we need SOA > tools, we need SOA technologies ..we need SOA staff .." There are indeed a lot of hype around SOA. > Reality check - think about the issues that DCE and common data > dictionary initiatives had. Anyone ever experienced how difficult it is > for multiple App groups to share stds, processes, and agree on data > models? > > SOA is all this Actually it is not. > Anyway, perhaps a bit OT and not so much related to OpenVMS, but when > ever I hear this "modern developer" term, it starts my blood boiling. At > some point, someone has to tell the King (industry "modern developer") > they are wearing no clothes. People are interested in the skills that can get them a job. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:03:40 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Application transparent file encryption (supported)? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Jordan [mailto:jordan@ccs4vms.com] > Sent: June 21, 2007 12:20 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Application transparent file encryption (supported)? >=20 > I've got a customer who is looking for the ability to encrypt on-disk > data files in an application transparent manner; sort of the way some > peecee utilities can encrypt an entire disk but apps running on the > system are presented with a view of a normal unencrypted filesystem > and file data after authenticating. >=20 > I know about the VMS encryption product, which can provide file > encryption and encrypted backups. However the docs imply that > encrypting an RMS indexed file would produce a file unusable until its > decrypted _outside_ of the application that needs it; the application > could not directly use the encrypted file. That would leave cleartext > data on disk, which is what we need to avoid. >=20 > Is there anything currently available (and supported) for VMS on Alpha > or itanic? I saw posts by Glenn Everhart mention the possibility of > using VDDRIVER to do it but I don't believe thats a supported option > (at least not by HP). >=20 > Thanks for any info. Not sure if this will meet your requirements or not, but OpenVMS V8.3 integrates AES with the OS and replaces the older separate LP install. Reference: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/83FINAL/6679/6679pro_002.html#enceas "OpenVMS Version 8.3 integrates the former Encryption for OpenVMS software product into the operating system. This eliminates the requirement for a separate product installation and product license. In addition, OpenVMS Version 8.3 now includes support for the Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) algorithm, which allows OpenVMS users, system managers, security managers, or programmers to secure their files, save sets, or application data with AES encryption." See link for info on API access .. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:02:54 -0700 From: BaxterD@tessco.com Subject: Re: EVA/ Itanium question Message-ID: <1183266174.272094.237990@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jun 26, 2:02 pm, "Don.Z...@gmail.com" wrote: > we have a system disk on eva say $1$dga21, now we snapcloned the > system disk say $1$dga22, and we would like to test $1$dga22, can we > just change the lun assignment $1$dga22 to $1$dga21, and boot the > server as it usually does, is that simple? is there anything we need > to change on EFI side ie re-config boot options etc ? when you look at your existing boot disk, and your new disk, in the EFI shell, device mapping, to they appear the same except for the disk unit number and the filesystem assignment (e.g. fs1:) ?? if they answer is yes, then I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. If the answer is no, then you might still give it a try (what do you have to lose except 5 minutes for the attempt.) In the end you might still need to run the "BOOT_OPTIONS" script. I am new to Itanium too, so my answer might be a load of dung anyway. I would be interested to hear what the result is anyway. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 15:08:21 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: expanding shadow size Message-ID: <4686B835.B4DAF096@spam.comcast.net> Bob Gezelter wrote: > > On Jun 29, 8:55 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > "Klaus-D. Bohn" wrote: > > > > > Hello all together, > > > > > I have an existing problem with a shadow disk. I would like to increase the > > > shadow size without to dismount all the shadow members. > > > [snip] > > > What must i do to get the full volume size 17773524? > > > > As Hoff pointed out, can't be done without downtime. > > > > You'll need to negotiate a scheduled downtime with your customer. Be sure to > > explain that this is necessary if they want to realize the desired benefit. > > David, > > A small note on the comment about downtime. > > If all that is needed is the SET VOLUME/LIMIT command, it is almost > wrong to call it downtime. Planned properly (and executed with a > command file) the downtime is limited to the availability of that > volume for a matter of seconds. It will take longer to restart those > applications that cannot quiesce and reacquire a file than it will > take to do the actual change. It is, in my experience, far shorter > than even a reboot (and if this is a data disk and not involved in the > actual running of the cluster) will not be needed. > > It is true that even such a "blip" is a downtime, and needs to be > handled appropriately, but there is a large difference between such a > "blip" and a multi-hour downtime. Indeed, depending on what data is > involved, it may not even meet the organization's definition of > critical information, at least on the scale of a few minutes. > > Just my US$ 0.02 to ensure a clean record of the discussion. Well, it's generally considered that "downtime" means the application is not available to the users, regardless of the cause. Large applications - and their underlying software infrastructure (databases, etc.) can, indeed, impose extensive periods of unavailability just to allow a single volume to be DISMOUNTed, MOUNTed privately, prepared for DVE, then DISMOUNTed and reMOUNTed back to the system so that the software layers can be restarted in the proper order. In my case, at work, it's two(2) hours, minimum. The OP simply stated that his client is downtime averse in that they will not allow the steps needed to permit this. Hence, my comment, as it was. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:56:36 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Message-ID: <468717cc$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >>> Same here. I currently do SOAP client > > We don't really to know what you do to your clients :-) > > I use SOAP in the shower every morning though :-) You don't capitalize all letters in that SOAP. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:02:31 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: gSOAP on OpenVMS? VMS as Web Service *client* Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 19:56:36 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >>>> Same here. I currently do SOAP client >> We don't really to know what you do to your clients :-) >> I use SOAP in the shower every morning though :-) > > You don't capitalize all letters in that SOAP. > Well it is an acronym Soil Off All Parts > Arne -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:47:49 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <001f01c7bb4f$8a8fd140$9faf73c0$@com> Well said Kerry! Well said indeed! Add to your equation the cost of decentralized applications that are basically out of control. You have the accountant that thinks he is a hot programmer and can figure out all that the company needs to know using Excel and VBA macros. (*sigh*) Or worse yet, the smart-a** who thinks he knows more about databases than the DBA's and so puts critical and sensitive financial company data in an Access database - loads it on the laptop, which he later trades in for a new model and does not wipe the disk. Worse - nobody in IT even knows the data has gotten loose or been compromised. Sales goofs with the entire company customer list on their laptop - and without any strong morals. They get pissed and sell the list to a competitor with even less morals. Or just jump ship for the competitor and then use the information they have stolen in various, often nefarious ways. Can you control this with the average Windows tools? Well - actually, yes you can. But most of the buffoons who feel they know so much more than the IT people (what *is* it about accounting degrees that make people feel they understand how database systems work?) just google at you and said - whatever for? Ack!! Without windows, my job would have 5% of the issues to deal with I have to deal with. Often I, among others, have been heard to voice a desire to go back to nothing but green screens. That is the reason why. The same people who would never DREAM of arguing with the doctor, will argue till they are blue in the face with IT - because they are sure they know THE answer to all our problems - they read all about it in PC World of course. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 9:26 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > > Sent: June 29, 2007 3:07 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option > > > > In article , > > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > In article <5ekdm1F38esk5U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu > > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >> > > >> And that is a management problem and not a Windows problem. > > Management > > >> should mandate who can do what on any machine and what is not to > be > > done > > >> on a server. > > > > > > Management mandates are not a good tool for overcoming poor > > quality. > > > Management may mandate no surfing from the server console, but > > that > > > won't stop it from happening. > > > > It will if you counsel him the first time and fire him the second > > time. :-) > > > > [snip ...] > > Bill, > > As I alluded to earlier, if you are mandating that browsers not be used > from servers, then with all due respect, you really do not understand > med-large DC and server environment management. > > You need to understand that many of today's server management tools and > utilities have browser interfaces. Which typically means servers > require > things like IIS, Apache or some other web server running. So right > away, > all those IIS/IE issues need to be considered as potentially serious > server issues. > > And while you can argue all you want about "real sysadmins use command > line, cryptic commands with exciting qualifiers", that is simply not > how > modern day DC's are managed and/or monitored on a large scale - > especially in the Windows space. Heck, even large SAN environments > today > use Windows or Web based based mgmt interfaces to Mgmt appliances and > have NO access to the console because there often is none. > > > > > > > Poor quality in Microsoft's product is a Microsoft problem and a > > > problem for each of thier products, the only fault on the part > of > > > management is failing to block its use. > > > > Bull crap. Just because some people have an axe to grind doesn't > mean > > the fault is all MS's. The products have come a long way (as have > > other > > products, like Linux). They can be used securely and efficiently and > > they > > can be made stable. And, that is the job of the sys admin. > Otherwise, > > why have them? Why not just let the secretary do it? What's that > old > > adage about a workman and his tools? > > > > Just how secure would a VMS system be if the sys admin just turned on > > all > > the ports and services, needed or not. The SYSTEM account had no > > password. > > And everyone who used the machine just logged in as SYSTEM anyway. > > You > > would never consider running a VMS system like this, so why accept it > > with Windows and then blame MS for the problems? > > > > bill > > Both of the Bill's are missing the point. Again, with all due respect, > both of you do not appear to have any real experience in med to large > DC > operations. > > Let me explain the typical medium DC environment. > > [Large ones simply take what follows and multiply x 5-10 times. One > large US Customer bank server consolidation external RFP stated they > had > 10K servers WW of which 70-80% were Wintel based (they had no idea if > that was real or not since it was a SWAG which was part of the reason > for the RFP. The other reason was that they estimated that average peak > utilization of those 8K Wintel servers was less than 20%)] > > Again, assume well managed Windows (Linux), UNIX and OpenVMS servers > are > the baseline. Cust has trained their staff well in terms of secure > processes like disclosing sensitive information over the phone etc. > Fine, no issue here. In this environment, there are likely something > like 200-400 applications and/or utilities running of varying > importance > and significance. Before patches are rolled out, they are tested > against > the important applications. > > That's the baseline. > > A single typical medium DC has say 300-500 servers of which about 60- > 70% > (approx 200-400) are Wintel/Linux based. For discussion, lets assume > 300. That means about 200+ Wintel based. About 25% (50) of these will > be > IT infrastructure/operations based so IT OPS has a good feel for what > is > running on these. That leaves 150+ prod/dev/test Wintel App/DB servers. > > That's also part of the baseline. > > Most IT operations staff have little to no understanding of what the > applications running on the 150 Wintel/Linux App servers require in > terms of things like ActiveX, COM, LDAP, Apache, IIS, what services are > running and/or not running. Also, remember that dev/test environments > are run by many different App groups who freely install whatever they > want. For prod environments, IT Operations simply follow vendor or App > provided instructions for installing new software (click set-up.exe and > answer default questions) in prod environments. > > That's also part of the baseline. > > Now. Introduce 5-20 well documented security issues each and every > month > for Windows and Linux. Also, keep in mind that most security analysts > state that 50-60% of all security issues are internally initiated. Some > are inadvertently caused via Trojans, worms on laptops, PDA's, memory > sticks, cell phones etc looking for known holes and that regularly > travel to and from external networks. > > So, what is the real cost to an organization like this that now needs > to > test their important app's against a subset of these monthly security > patches? [which really means little as an App test is an App test > regardless of 1 or 20 patches applied] > > And please do not say the IT OPS should have a detailed understanding > of > what is running on every server because while in theory that might be > true in Wonderland, the reality is that they are all under staffed and > just trying to keep their nose above water with day to day support > issues - let alone planning monthly testing of applications and patch > deployments across all these servers because of these monthly > Windows/Linux security patches. > > So, now you see the difference in terms the impact and costs of 1 or 2 > security patches every couple of years for OpenVMS vs. 5-20 released > *each and every* month for Windows/Linux. > > And so, yes, regardless of the initial costs, long term OS platform > quality really does mean a big difference to the organization. > > This is likely the issue facing medium to large companies today - one > of > the true "hidden" reasons why IT costs are so high today as compared to > the past. > > Regards > > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:05:44 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1183233944.654390.92850@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 30, 10:26 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > Both of the Bill's are missing the point. as they do most of the time ... :) > Now. Introduce 5-20 well documented security issues each and every month > for Windows and Linux. lets not forget unix as well ... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:53:02 -0400 From: Glenn Everhart Subject: Re: Question on FCS vs RMS on PDP11 RSX Message-ID: <468708FE.8000705@gce.com> Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Jun 28, 9:07 pm, Jeff Cameron wrote: >> I would like some clarification on FCS (File Control Services) and RMS >> (Record Management System) in RSX 11M+ for the PDP-11. >> >> I have been told by one of the original MACRO-11 developers for our PDP-11 >> system that our file system on the RSX systems only supports FCS files and >> not RMS files. While I fully understand that support for RMS files is a >> Sysgen option, I don't believe that the files are either in FCS format or >> RMS format. I had always thought that FCS was a set of basic file control >> services for manipulating, reading and writing files in RSX, and NOT a file >> format. Further more, I was under the impression that RMS record management >> was layered on top of FCS. >> >> Our old Macro developer was quite vehement that the format of the two types >> of files are very different, specifically the file headers. This seemed very >> wrong to me since the format of file headers are a Files-11 volume >> attribute. >> >> Now this macro developer is an older man who is not to familiar with newer >> technologies, who often replies with "It is not true just because you want >> it to be true." for things I already know to be true. For example we had >> quite an argument concerning file headers on a Files-11 disk (even ODS1 for >> RSX); It was my position that the actual header information was stored in >> the volume index file, while he insisted that it was actually a reserved >> block at the beginning of the physical file. >> >> So, if any of you have any information concerning the FCS/RMS issue, if you >> could site some resource, it would be extremely valuable. >> >> The point of contention is that I am considering using the Process Software >> TCP Stack, TCPWare. The TCPWare SPD says it supports RMS files, but says >> nothing about FCS, and our developer says it will not work because our files >> are all FCS format. I need irrefutable evidence that it will work, since he >> is the roadblock to my proceeding with this plan. >> >> Jeff Cameron > > Jeff, > > First, a note on my background. I have worked with most versions of > the RSX-11 family since 1976 (e.g., RSX-11M, RSX-11M-PLUS, RSX-11S, > RSX-11D, P/OS, and Micro/RSX). At one point, I was actually a field- > test site for four of the products simultaneously. > > All of the following details are subject to verification from the > documentation, it has been a while since I checked it in detail. > > FCS provides a variety of services for the management of simple > sequential files. Most notably, it did not support Indexed files, this > support was provided by an add-on kit referred to as RMS-11K (RMS-11 > Keyed). There was a more basic version of RMS, RMS-11, that did not > support keyed files, as I recall. I would have to check my archived > documentation as to whether simple relative files (supported by > FORTRAN) were operable using FCS. > > The key obstacle to using RMS was address space and memory size. RMS > was substantially larger than FCS, and until the advent of 22-bit > addressing, space was an overwhelming obstacle. When P/OS required the > use of RMS, there were many who had address space problems. > > Without reviewing the Process Software specification, I would > interpret the phrase "supports RMS files" as meaning exactly that, it > supports the transfer of all RMS file types. This DOES NOT mean that > it cannot transfer FCS files. > > In any event, FCS and RMS were merely libraries for accessing files. > The format of the most common files on the system are governed by the > FILES-11 specification, and are the same. > > WADR, your colleague appears to be mis-informed in some areas. > > If I can be of assistance, please feel free to contact me. > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com > I wonder whether the fellow who makes these claims got confused by the fact that dump and other utilities treat the index file block as block 0 of a normal file, so it kinda/sorta acts like a dedicated file block, but lives in indexf.sys. Also I recall (a bit vaguely now - it HAS been a number of years) discussion around isam file index format 3 as the common format. I don't recall ever hearing explicitly of format 1 or 2, but such might have been around back at the time RSX11D V1, V2, or even V4 were out. I seem to recall that the ODS-1 spec came out roughly at the same time as RSX11D V1, so some very old file formats might have existed that would have been novel. They would have been obsolete by the time anyone was really into RMS11K (one might as sensibly worry about details of the old DOS-11 .CIL or .LDA formats). While FCS-11 would have not been able to understand ISAM file indices, it would have been able to access the files as blocks, and non-ISAM files would not have given FCS any trouble. VMS grew some more file headers later on which I am not sure any pdp11 software would have known about, if memory serves, but that were not used heavily either. Glenn Everhart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:01:23 -0400 From: Glenn Everhart Subject: Re: Question on FCS vs RMS on PDP11 RSX Message-ID: <46870AF3.5000807@gce.com> Lee K. Gleason wrote: > "Jeff Cameron" wrote in message > news:C2A9A972.29221%roktsci@ca.rr.com... >> I would like some clarification on FCS (File Control Services) and RMS >> (Record Management System) in RSX 11M+ for the PDP-11. >> >> I have been told by one of the original MACRO-11 developers for our PDP-11 >> system that our file system on the RSX systems only supports FCS files and >> not RMS files. While I fully understand that support for RMS files is a >> Sysgen option, I don't believe that the files are either in FCS format or >> RMS format. I had always thought that FCS was a set of basic file control >> services for manipulating, reading and writing files in RSX, and NOT a > file >> format. Further more, I was under the impression that RMS record > management >> was layered on top of FCS. >> >> Our old Macro developer was quite vehement that the format of the two > types >> of files are very different, specifically the file headers. This seemed > very >> wrong to me since the format of file headers are a Files-11 volume >> attribute. >> >> Now this macro developer is an older man who is not to familiar with newer >> technologies, who often replies with "It is not true just because you want >> it to be true." for things I already know to be true. For example we had >> quite an argument concerning file headers on a Files-11 disk (even ODS1 > for >> RSX); It was my position that the actual header information was stored in >> the volume index file, while he insisted that it was actually a reserved >> block at the beginning of the physical file. >> >> So, if any of you have any information concerning the FCS/RMS issue, if > you >> could site some resource, it would be extremely valuable. >> >> The point of contention is that I am considering using the Process > Software >> TCP Stack, TCPWare. The TCPWare SPD says it supports RMS files, but says >> nothing about FCS, and our developer says it will not work because our > files >> are all FCS format. I need irrefutable evidence that it will work, since > he >> is the roadblock to my proceeding with this plan. >> >> Jeff Cameron >> > > The format of FCS and RMS sequential files, very compatible. FCS can open, > read and write an RMS sequential file just fine, and vice versa. RMS Indexed > and Relative files, not so compatible with FCS routines - I don't know if > it's still true, but there was a time when simply opening and closing an RMS > indexed file with FCS routines was enough to corrupt it beyond use. Even if > opening and closing doesn;'t destroy them anymore, you certainly won't be > reading and writing them with any useful results from FCs code. But, you're > going the other way, FCS files manipulated by RMS code. > > RMS is not layered on top of FCS - both of them do their own QIOs to read > and write blocks. > > However, I'm thinking, in regards to your question, that the Process > Sotware stack, since it uses RMS, should be able to handle FCS created files > just fine. What exactly are you contemplating doing to these files? Just > copying them? Reading and writing records/blocks? Access via NFS? Given a > little more detail, we might be able to come closer to a definitive answer. > -- > Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR > Control-G Consultants > lgleason@houston.rr.com > > FCS worked just fine on random files also, not only sequential. Relative files were not known to it - I agree with that also. On pdp11, RMS and FCS are alternate ways to access files; on VMS, RMS is used at a much more fundamental level and is used in things like directory traversal and deeply embedded into the I/O subsystem (somewhat less so since the spiralog support was put in but some of the source comments around grubbing around under the covers together apply here as well as to the mount verify system). There were also ISAM systems devised for pdp11 which used FCS access routines. If I recall rightly, Bob Denny did some pretty elaborate examples of this. Some of this was done using separate processes for much of the work, to avoid the hideous address space penalties exacted by RMS11K. Glenn Everhart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:05:50 -0400 From: Glenn Everhart Subject: Re: Question on FCS vs RMS on PDP11 RSX Message-ID: <46870BFE.8080003@gce.com> Jeff Cameron wrote: > I would like some clarification on FCS (File Control Services) and RMS > (Record Management System) in RSX 11M+ for the PDP-11. > > I have been told by one of the original MACRO-11 developers for our PDP-11 > system that our file system on the RSX systems only supports FCS files and > not RMS files. While I fully understand that support for RMS files is a > Sysgen option, I don't believe that the files are either in FCS format or > RMS format. I had always thought that FCS was a set of basic file control > services for manipulating, reading and writing files in RSX, and NOT a file > format. Further more, I was under the impression that RMS record management > was layered on top of FCS. > > Our old Macro developer was quite vehement that the format of the two types > of files are very different, specifically the file headers. This seemed very > wrong to me since the format of file headers are a Files-11 volume > attribute. > > Now this macro developer is an older man who is not to familiar with newer > technologies, who often replies with "It is not true just because you want > it to be true." for things I already know to be true. For example we had > quite an argument concerning file headers on a Files-11 disk (even ODS1 for > RSX); It was my position that the actual header information was stored in > the volume index file, while he insisted that it was actually a reserved > block at the beginning of the physical file. > > So, if any of you have any information concerning the FCS/RMS issue, if you > could site some resource, it would be extremely valuable. > > The point of contention is that I am considering using the Process Software > TCP Stack, TCPWare. The TCPWare SPD says it supports RMS files, but says > nothing about FCS, and our developer says it will not work because our files > are all FCS format. I need irrefutable evidence that it will work, since he > is the roadblock to my proceeding with this plan. > > Jeff Cameron > If your files are FCS format they are supported by pdp11 RMS; the support is a strict superset. Look carefully though: TCPWare is as likely as everything else on pdp11 to use FCS at least as an option rather than RMS, to have more address space. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:30:40 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Question to Kerry Main Message-ID: Mr Main, your arguments on c.o.v. are often rebutted as part of normal debating process. (And you rebutt other arguments with your own responses). In real life, do you also find customers and potential customers having similar questions ? Or do you conclude that we, in c.o.v. are a sepcial bunch living in a totally different universe without a clue of what is happening in real life ? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:18:09 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: SOA and VMS stuff Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > Sent: June 24, 2007 4:57 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: SOA and VMS stuff >=20 > Hi Kerry, >=20 > > Well, if modern tools means SOA type technologies, then imho, I have > to > > smile at this. >=20 > I found (and love!) this recent post in the comp.lang.java.programmer > newsgroup: - >=20 > > a funny but true Ads by IBM > > > > try { > > > > installTomcat(); > > integrateAxis(); > > addSecurity(); > > throwInMessaging(); > > } catch (TooComplicatedException e) { >=20 > And a couple of links I post here previously (How hard can it be?): - >=20 > Here's a lovely "little" Hello-World EJB example from HP > thenselves to help you make up your minds: - > http://devresource.hp.com/drc/technical_papers/ejb_jboss/ >=20 >=20 [snip ...] Customer requirement - I need a swing so our programmers can have something to do on their break. Industry response - Those who stick with the simple swing are dinosaurs. The new in thing and what you really want is this huge amusement park as it is much better than a simple swing. Just think how happy your programmers will be with this amusement park to play in on their breaks... What's that? There are no guard rails on the roller coasters to keep riders safe and secure?? Oh yeah, no problem, those will be coming a future version. :-) Pure personal opinion, but this discussion reminds me of controversial Burton report that came out about a year ago that stated J2EE days were numbered (and he inferred .Net as I recall but cant remember for sure) because the recent J2EE architecture updates had gotten so complicated that only the most seasoned OO programmers could do any real high end programming. Ah well, the amusement park sure sounds like a good idea to the programmers though. :-) Anyone remember why DCE and common data dictionary eventually lost their momentum?=20 [hint - the reasons were not technical] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 07:12:28 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: SOA and VMS stuff Message-ID: Hi Kerry > Pure personal opinion, but this discussion reminds me of controversial > Burton report that came out about a year ago that stated J2EE days were > numbered (and he inferred .Net as I recall but cant remember for sure) > because the recent J2EE architecture updates had gotten so complicated > that only the most seasoned OO programmers could do any real high end > programming. Funny you should say that, but with Steve Jobs saying "Java's not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It's this big heavyweight ball and chain...", your reference, and the following from a thread in comp.lang.cobol, there's certainly is a lot of smoke around. "Pete Dashwood" wrote in message news:5edssuF37oamtU1@mid.individual.net... > snip > You should also bear in mind that the SOAP protocol is already obsolete and > will no longer be supported by MS after next year. It is being replaced by > DotNet Web Services (which provide richer facilities and error checking than > SOAP does...) > I assume .NET Web Services still talk SOAP (but maybe that's like saying Internet Explorer supports standards?) The one thing that no one else (in the world) seems too concerned about is that *all* of this crap is layered upon a low-performance, connection-less, context-poor, bollocks protocol such as HTTP. Reconnecting, Session IDs, Session Hijacking, Cookies, Expiration times, Bloated XML messages etc etc and everyone's OK with that? (Then there's your Web Server, WSDL, Tomcat, Axis, PHP, and so on. . . .) If you want to serve up a compound hypertext documents then sure, http is for you. But if you want to talk to your Application Servers with the most secure, high performance and feature-rich middleware protocol available then why would you even look at http? And at the end of the day, none of this "new" technology allows *your* development staff to control server-affinity (a la mode de Tier3) Please show me the SOAP/XML packet for a thousand row result-set. Just like ACMS workspaces of old, you are stuck with this damned, and artificial, "workspace" construct and "Paging". When will they learn? *Parallelism!* The client adding value and enriching the rows as they come from the Application Server one at a time. You've got a fill-duplex Pipe as the parameter to your RPC code. You decide what a converstation or exchange will look like and how long it will last. You have the ability to send an OOB character and interrupt your server in full-flight. But maybe that sort of stuff only appeals to me? So where should I send your Hobbyist License to? :-) Seriously though, if you're running Stunnel on one of your home boxes I'd really appreciate the chance to test the SSL version of my Applet? Why isn't Stunnel bundled with VMS like OpenSSL? Cheers Richard Maher "Main, Kerry" wrote in message news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684024C08B4@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > Sent: June 24, 2007 4:57 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: SOA and VMS stuff > > Hi Kerry, > > > Well, if modern tools means SOA type technologies, then imho, I have > to > > smile at this. > > I found (and love!) this recent post in the comp.lang.java.programmer > newsgroup: - > > > a funny but true Ads by IBM > > > > try { > > > > installTomcat(); > > integrateAxis(); > > addSecurity(); > > throwInMessaging(); > > } catch (TooComplicatedException e) { > > And a couple of links I post here previously (How hard can it be?): - > > Here's a lovely "little" Hello-World EJB example from HP > thenselves to help you make up your minds: - > http://devresource.hp.com/drc/technical_papers/ejb_jboss/ > > [snip ...] Customer requirement - I need a swing so our programmers can have something to do on their break. Industry response - Those who stick with the simple swing are dinosaurs. The new in thing and what you really want is this huge amusement park as it is much better than a simple swing. Just think how happy your programmers will be with this amusement park to play in on their breaks... What's that? There are no guard rails on the roller coasters to keep riders safe and secure?? Oh yeah, no problem, those will be coming a future version. :-) Pure personal opinion, but this discussion reminds me of controversial Burton report that came out about a year ago that stated J2EE days were numbered (and he inferred .Net as I recall but cant remember for sure) because the recent J2EE architecture updates had gotten so complicated that only the most seasoned OO programmers could do any real high end programming. Ah well, the amusement park sure sounds like a good idea to the programmers though. :-) Anyone remember why DCE and common data dictionary eventually lost their momentum? [hint - the reasons were not technical] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:14:49 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: SOA and VMS stuff Message-ID: <46871c12$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard Maher wrote: > "Pete Dashwood" wrote in message > news:5edssuF37oamtU1@mid.individual.net... > snip >> You should also bear in mind that the SOAP protocol is already obsolete > and >> will no longer be supported by MS after next year. It is being replaced by >> DotNet Web Services (which provide richer facilities and error checking > than >> SOAP does...) > > I assume .NET Web Services still talk SOAP (but maybe that's like saying > Internet Explorer supports standards?) .NET web services use SOAP and fully supports WS-I Basic. The only .NET specific thingy I know about is the DISCO protocol that complement/superseede UDDI (which was a complete fiasco). Arne ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.355 ************************