INFO-VAX Wed, 20 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 333 Contents: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Ope Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Ope Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Ope Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! OpenV Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mentionOpenVMS! mentio Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Re: Console monitoring programs Example of SMTP symbion not properly reporting errors Re: help set host/scsi Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Re: Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Re: Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Re: Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: Proof that, at least once, DEC had a marketing budget Re: Question for the Group Re: Question for the Group Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) Re: UCX Printer connection Via LPD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:58:39 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Ope Message-ID: Ken Robinson wrote: > Posted with no comment.... Well, did anyone think that *I* would be able to widthhold comments about this ? Ann Livermore: ## In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP platform. ## This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being a glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to kill VMS, I don't know what it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:12:09 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Ope Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Ken Robinson wrote: > >> Posted with no comment.... > > Well, did anyone think that *I* would be able to widthhold comments > about this ? > > Ann Livermore: > ## > In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our > installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when > they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP platform. > ## Yep, it's the same kind of bullshit that I even heard in the Digital days. "We love our VMS customers, but should they want to move to Windows-NT or Unix we will be most happy to .. blah blah blah blah > > This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being a > glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. > > If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to kill > VMS, I don't know what it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:46:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Ope Message-ID: <799a8$46786ad5$cef8887a$18382@TEKSAVVY.COM> DaveG wrote: > I read the words "if and when they ever want to migrate". I don't > interpret that statement as being an "official announcement" to kill > VMS. It is close to an announcement as can be made without actually killing VMS. It is a warning to get the hell off VMS ASAP because HP's intentions are to convince VMS customers to migrate to other HP platforms. Combine this with the fact that VMS was the only major product whose future was not announced until after the merg3er was signed on May 7th, and on that day, after months of waiting, we are told by Stallard that he expects VMS customer to migrate to HP-UX. Combine that with the total lack of marketing even after VMS ran on that IA64 thing, not even allowing a press release to the news wires about VMS now running on HP blades. Combine this with Cerner having struck a deal with HP to drop VMS and port to HP-UX, and Gembase having been told that VMS was dead and thus dropping plans for further upgrades. If that Ann Livermore thing think she has what it takes to make a good CEO, and this absolute blunder was truly intentional, then she is far more incompetant than anyone could have imagined. If she is not incompetant, then this was not a blunder and was a very strong message to the VMS user community. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:24:36 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: <7dd80f60706191324k5c0c4b9ch2ae8e4895e970946@mail.gmail.com> The articles are "Q&A: HP's Ann Livermore addresses company's services issues" and "Hurd: HP will show users how to run IT" Posted with no comment.... Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:35:53 -0700 From: DaveG Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: <1182288953.376856.161760@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 19, 3:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Ken Robinson wrote: > > Posted with no comment.... > > Well, did anyone think that *I* would be able to widthhold comments > about this ? > > Ann Livermore: > ## > In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our > installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when > they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP platform. > ## > > This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being a > glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. > > If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to kill > VMS, I don't know what it. I read the words "if and when they ever want to migrate". I don't interpret that statement as being an "official announcement" to kill VMS. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 18:39:18 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: DaveG writes: > On Jun 19, 3:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> Ken Robinson wrote: >>> Posted with no comment.... >> Well, did anyone think that *I* would be able to widthhold comments >> about this ? >> Ann Livermore: >> ## >> In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our >> installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when >> they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP platform. >> ## >> This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being a >> glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. >> If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to kill >> VMS, I don't know what it. > I read the words "if and when they ever want to migrate". I don't interpret > that statement as being an "official announcement" to kill VMS. I don't think it's the phrase you quote, I think it's the statement that "we are very focused on our installed base" that has people tolling the knell: If they are focused on the installed base, that doesn't bode well for expansion of same. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:58:59 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:58:39 -0700, JF Mezei wrote: > Ken Robinson wrote: > >> Posted with no comment.... > > Well, did anyone think that *I* would be able to widthhold comments > about this ? > > Ann Livermore: > ## > In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our > installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when > they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP > platform. > ## From a bottom line perspective this is really stupid. Why would HP want to migrate a high margin VMS customer to a lower margin HP-UX customer, or even lower Winodws. Can you think of any other business that operates in this fashion? > > This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being a > glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. > > If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to kill > VMS, I don't know what it. It demonstrates a serious lack of business acumen. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:04:32 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:45:09 -0700, David J Dachtera wrote: >> [snip] Can >> you think of any other business that operates in this fashion? > Government? You missed the point, a company has two products, A has 20% margins and sells 100 units B has 10% margin and sells 500 units. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.co ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:45:09 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mention OpenVMS! OpenV Message-ID: <467886A5.98136915@spam.comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > > [snip] Can > you think of any other business that operates in this fashion? Government? > > > > This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being a > > glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. > > > > If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to kill > > VMS, I don't know what it. > > It demonstrates a serious lack of business acumen. ... and you expected ... what? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:41:38 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Amazing, two new articles on Computerworld.com actual mentionOpenVMS! mentio Message-ID: <467885D2.9B2D74BE@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > Ken Robinson wrote: > > > Posted with no comment.... > > Well, did anyone think that *I* would be able to widthhold comments > about this ? > > Ann Livermore: > ## > In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our > installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when > they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP platform. > ## > > This pretty much confirms the Stallard memo of May 7th 2002 not being a > glitch but truly representing HP corporate policy. > > If that Livermore isn't an official announcement that HP intends to kill > VMS, I don't know what it. Well, you can take that two (or more) ways, JF. "Another HP platform" could mean hardware platform (I64, x86-64) or software platform (OpenVMS-I64, PH-UX) ... and various combinations ... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 20:52:56 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Message-ID: <46784228$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <7tydi.4492$a84.109@newsfe21.lga>, "Hal Kuff" writes: >Hi, anyone out there using XP Series Arrays can lend a hand understanding >why we can present storage but the show dev/multipath command yields nothing >on either 7.3-2 Alpha or 8.3 Itanium? What is XP Series? I heard of Thunder and Lightning and ... http://www.hds.com/products/storage-systems/ Isn't (StorageWorks) XP Series an HP product? http://www.compaq.com/storage/enterprisestorage.html And in case of FC storage, you know SYSMAN IO FIND_WWID/LIST_WWID/REPLACE_WWID? -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:44:53 GMT From: "Hal Kuff" Subject: Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Message-ID: <9M_di.9271$jb5.352@trndny09> Hi folks... answer via the now great Mr Wilson's folks is that you need LUN 0 presented to the OpenVMS systems... nowhere in the DOC for XP or the OpenVMS guide to XP Arrays... (Not that a mere mortal could find anything through the HP web site search) "Rob Brooks" wrote in message news:$YqBMi7Vbbu$@cuebid.zko.hp.com... > "Hal Kuff" writes: >> Robert, thanxs for the reply.... nope..! That's not it... so anyone >> actually >> have one of these things? You know we have e-mailed the HDS product >> manager >> (James Wilson) several times in the past and frankly I'm not sure they >> really care about OpenVMS....Seems like a nice fellow.... but zip on >> support... > > I know that we resell that storage array, that VMS Engineering has > at least one in the lab, and I have seen multipath work correctly on that > array, although I wasn't involved in configuring it. > > You might get better presales support if you contact your HP rep/reseller. > > -- > > Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:38:33 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Console monitoring programs Message-ID: <46788519.46D53D47@spam.comcast.net> "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" wrote: > > Has anyone attempted to port Conserver (www.conserver.com) to > OpenVMS? Or is there any free or open-source or hobbyist licensed > replacement for the Polycenter Cluster Console application? Good question. Gotta lookup whether Tecsys Development has a hobbyist license for ConsoleWorks... (http://www.tditx.com/) -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:34:10 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Example of SMTP symbion not properly reporting errors Message-ID: The postmaster message advising non delivery says: ---- Transcript of session follows ---- 554 %TCPIP-E-SMTP_XFAIL, remote transaction failure, nl.rogers.com But when on does a trace of the symbion, here is where the remote SMTP server said : ## recv buf=554 delivery error: dd Sorry your message to anne.greengables@nl.rogers.com cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102]. - mta106.rog.mail.scd.yahoo.com\0d\0a ## This is a clear example of the SMTP symbion not advising the sender of the real error message and synthetising some text that hides valuable information. In this case, the fact that the destination mailbox ha been disabled. (eg: in this case, it isn't an issue with my relationship with that SMTP server, it is one where the email address is truly no longer functional. Since I have been with TCPIP Services, I have seen many examples of the symbiont not returning the actial error message thus giving the sender misleading information on why the message bounced. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 21:18:51 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: help set host/scsi Message-ID: <4678483b$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > qualifier lat, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_lat Documented in VMS > qualifier sna, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_sna Documented in SNA Software > qualifier bts, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_bts Don't know. > qualifier dup, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_dup Documented in DSSI and VMS > qualifier hsc, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_hsc Documented in HSC and VMS > qualifier x29, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_x29 Documented in P.S.I. and DECnet-Plus > qualifier dte, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_dte Documented in VMS > qualifier vtp nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_vtp Documented in DECnet-Plus > qualifier mop, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_mop Documented in DECnet-Plus and VMS > qualifier scsi, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_scsi Documented in HSZ > qualifier rlogin, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_rlogin > qualifier telnet, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_telnet > qualifier tn3270, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_tn3270 All 3 documented in TCPIP and VMS > /APPLICATION_PROTOCOL /BUFFER_SIZE /LOG /MOP > /RESTORE > Examples /DTE /DUP /HSC /LAT /RLOGIN /TELNET > /TN3270 > >I was mostly just curious what the other undocumented qualifiers, btslink, >vtpad, psipad, were used for, to old for google I guess:-). Don't know what /BTS is, the rest see above... (eg. X.29 is the remote terminal over the X.25 packet switching interface transport, while PSImail PSI% - that means PSI%dte-number::username - is the mail transport over X.25) -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:16:08 -0700 From: rtk Subject: Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Message-ID: <1182305768.160083.279130@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> I asked a question about licenses a couple of days back and was very happy to see all the helpful replies! Thank you! I'm now trying to install the C compiler on the Alpha Hobbyist CD. I got the FORTRAN compiler installed with PRODUCT INSTALL FORTRAN / SOURCE=... but when I try to get C installed I don't seem to know the product name (nor does help reveal anything to me about how to find it) I'm assuming the directory in the KITS directory called CC065_KIT is the right directory to use but I've tried C, CC, CC065, etc as the name and it never works. I looked around online and in the newsgroup but no one seems to have run into the same problem. What am I missing? (this time :) Ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:31:12 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Message-ID: <07061921311283_202003EE@antinode.org> From: rtk > I'm now trying to install the C compiler on the Alpha Hobbyist CD. I > got the FORTRAN compiler installed with PRODUCT INSTALL FORTRAN / > SOURCE=... but when I try to get C installed I don't seem to know the > product name (nor does help reveal anything to me about how to find > it) > [...] PRODUCT INSTALL is for PCSI kits. If you have an older-style xxx.A (xxx.B, ... -- BACKUP save sets) kit, you need to use SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL.COM. And watch the 9.3-character spelling of "VMSINSTAL.COM". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:43:09 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Message-ID: In article <1182305768.160083.279130@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, rtk wrote: > I asked a question about licenses a couple of days back and was very > happy to see all the helpful replies! Thank you! > > I'm now trying to install the C compiler on the Alpha Hobbyist CD. I > got the FORTRAN compiler installed with PRODUCT INSTALL FORTRAN / > SOURCE=... but when I try to get C installed I don't seem to know the > product name (nor does help reveal anything to me about how to find > it) > > I'm assuming the directory in the KITS directory called CC065_KIT is > the right directory to use but I've tried C, CC, CC065, etc as the > name and it never works. I looked around online and in the newsgroup > but no one seems to have run into the same problem. > > What am I missing? (this time :) The C compiler still supports the older, clunkier VMSINSTAL installation method and, as far as I know, does not support the newer PCSI method. I think it has to do that so it can still be installed in truly ancient VMS versions. Basically you want to poke around in the documentation for VMSINSTAL. The following example is the first thing that came up in Google: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/DOC/82final/6398/6398pro_002.html Or, something like the following should do the trick: $ @sys$update:vmsinstal cc065 -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:56:32 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Installing C compiler from Hobbyist CD Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:16:08 -0700, rtk wrote: > I asked a question about licenses a couple of days back and was very > happy to see all the helpful replies! Thank you! > > I'm now trying to install the C compiler on the Alpha Hobbyist CD. I > got the FORTRAN compiler installed with PRODUCT INSTALL FORTRAN / > SOURCE=3D... but when I try to get C installed I don't seem to know t= he > product name (nor does help reveal anything to me about how to find > it) > > I'm assuming the directory in the KITS directory called CC065_KIT is > the right directory to use but I've tried C, CC, CC065, etc as the > name and it never works. I looked around online and in the newsgroup > but no one seems to have run into the same problem. > > What am I missing? (this time :) Better yet, you can install PL/I, why muck about with such a pedestrian language. www.kednos.com and click on hobbyist link > > Ron > -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:05:12 -0400 From: Pete Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: Out of curosity what does wwidmgr see ? Pete ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:35:57 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: <137g8gfhi9d7bad@news.supernews.com> Is there a WWIDMGR on the XP1000? I never noticed it "Pete" wrote in message news:ea6g73lbdivfpak636dunchit0cubk0fk8@4ax.com... > > Out of curosity what does wwidmgr see ? > > Pete ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:49:29 -0400 From: Pete Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:35:57 -0400, "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: >Is there a WWIDMGR on the XP1000? >I never noticed it > > >"Pete" wrote in message >news:ea6g73lbdivfpak636dunchit0cubk0fk8@4ax.com... >> >> Out of curosity what does wwidmgr see ? >> >> Pete > I don't believe there is a wwidmgr on the alpha xp1000. I assumed a larger system would be connected to a HDS XP10000 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:52:12 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:35:57 -0700, David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > Is there a WWIDMGR on the XP1000? > I never noticed it > > > "Pete" wrote in message > news:ea6g73lbdivfpak636dunchit0cubk0fk8@4ax.com... >> >> Out of curosity what does wwidmgr see ? No there is not, and I made the same mistake. >> >> Pete > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:35:48 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: <46788474.490F494C@spam.comcast.net> Rob Brooks wrote: > > BaxterD@tessco.com writes: > > We have an issue with displaying multipath devices presented from > > an XP10000 to OpenVMS 7.3-2 (Alpha) and OpenVMS 8.3 (IA64). > > > > We would love to hear from ANYone who is running XP storage with > > OpenVMS!! > > Why don't you ask the vendor for a list of references? I assume the vendor would be HP, then? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:18:02 -0700 From: DeanW Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <3f119ada0706191118w520bc144hbbd4e710ce869b0b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/07, Robert Deininger wrote: > In article > <3f119ada0706190709td956361yad82192bd5d6e644@mail.gmail.com>, > DeanW wrote: > > > On 6/19/07, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > > > DeanW wrote: > > > > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. > > Rather than having customers jump these hoops to save a relatively small > amount of money, we actually require that VMS Integrity servers have a > DVD drive. But I know the ordering system gets screwed up and lets > orders slip through without DVD drives. That's what I thought. Calls are in to the tech who was supposed to do the initial setup (but didn't, not his fault- the shipment was delayed) and to the call center. Meanwhile, here I sit... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:29:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <1d4c$46782e97$cef8887a$10903@TEKSAVVY.COM> FredK wrote: > **BOOT** support for USB DVD disks on Itanium will not arrive until > V8.3-1H1. I you are starting off from an IA64, fresh out of the factory, still in its birthday suit and virgin disk drive, would it be able to boot from a USB DVD drive containing the VMS installation kit ? or is the problem that EFI would boot from the DVD, but once the VMS portion starts to take control, it would be unable to continue because it lacks the smarts to access itself via USB/DVD ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:33:34 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <5ed8f$46782f9f$cef8887a$11485@TEKSAVVY.COM> Robert Deininger wrote: > Rather than having customers jump these hoops to save a relatively small > amount of money, we actually require that VMS Integrity servers have a > DVD drive. Except for blades of course, which come with nothing. Correct ? Say a customer has no VMS at all and buys a blade with ia64 board in it. What would be the recommended procedure to install VMS ? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 15:17:45 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article <3f119ada0706191118w520bc144hbbd4e710ce869b0b@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW writes: > On 6/19/07, Robert Deininger wrote: >> In article >> <3f119ada0706190709td956361yad82192bd5d6e644@mail.gmail.com>, >> DeanW wrote: >> >> > On 6/19/07, Stephen Hoffman wrote: >> > > DeanW wrote: >> > > > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. >> >> Rather than having customers jump these hoops to save a relatively small >> amount of money, we actually require that VMS Integrity servers have a >> DVD drive. But I know the ordering system gets screwed up and lets >> orders slip through without DVD drives. > > That's what I thought. Calls are in to the tech who was supposed to do > the initial setup (but didn't, not his fault- the shipment was > delayed) and to the call center. Meanwhile, here I sit... But even if none of that had happened, the DVD drive could have taken a bullet on the loading dock :-) So it is good for the rest of us to have these periodic discussions of workarounds. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:56:26 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Robert Deininger wrote: >> Rather than having customers jump these hoops to save a relatively small >> amount of money, we actually require that VMS Integrity servers have a >> DVD drive. > > Except for blades of course, which come with nothing. Correct ? > > Say a customer has no VMS at all and buys a blade with ia64 board in it. > > What would be the recommended procedure to install VMS ? Right now: no way. You need an OpenVMS I64 8.3 system as an installation server. See ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/i64/V8.3/VMS83I_BLADE-V0100.txt cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:07:34 -0400 From: Forrest Kenney Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <46784596.A8500E9D@hp.com> As of V8.3 you should be able to use any DVD drive to install from. Having said that we only qualified the built in drives in the 3600/6600/2660 with V8.3. That is not to say that even with the built in drives you might not encounter problems. I know of at least 2 cases where the factory media in the factroy drive did not work and got hung in an infinite mount verify loop. (Note the infinite loop is fixed in an upcoming remedial kit for DVD buring.) Problem was bad media that tripped over some less than wonderful error handling in the driver. Also ever drive is a little different so while they should work they do not always work. If you happened to purchase the iLO2 advanced features license you can an unsupported installation. Using the iLO2 web interface you can enable a DVD in your local PC to look like a DVD in the system. We never tested that with V8.3 but is should work. Forrest Kenney OpenVMS resident USB expert DeanW wrote: > > On 6/19/07, Robert Deininger wrote: > > In article > > <3f119ada0706190709td956361yad82192bd5d6e644@mail.gmail.com>, > > DeanW wrote: > > > > > On 6/19/07, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > > > > DeanW wrote: > > > > > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. > > > > Rather than having customers jump these hoops to save a relatively small > > amount of money, we actually require that VMS Integrity servers have a > > DVD drive. But I know the ordering system gets screwed up and lets > > orders slip through without DVD drives. > > That's what I thought. Calls are in to the tech who was supposed to do > the initial setup (but didn't, not his fault- the shipment was > delayed) and to the call center. Meanwhile, here I sit... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:00:00 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article <5ed8f$46782f9f$cef8887a$11485@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: > Robert Deininger wrote: > > > Rather than having customers jump these hoops to save a relatively small > > amount of money, we actually require that VMS Integrity servers have a > > DVD drive. > > Except for blades of course, which come with nothing. Correct ? The available blade configurations are in the QuickSpecs and other documents. There are too many options and combinations to make me want to comment here. > Say a customer has no VMS at all and buys a blade with ia64 board in it. > > What would be the recommended procedure to install VMS ? For V8.3, it's documented. (Look for the "errata" document for VMS on blades.) I'll not try to repeat the instructions here. For V8.3-1H1, the process will be streamlined. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:01:00 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article , Robert Deininger wrote: > In article , > "FredK" wrote: > > > **BOOT** support for USB DVD disks on Itanium will not arrive until > > V8.3-1H1. > > The native DVD drives for rx2600/rx3600/rx6600 are USB, and VMS V8.3 > boots just fine. That's why I suggested this as something to try. I typo'd this. rx2600 should have been rx2660. Sorry. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:23:06 -0700 From: DeanW Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <3f119ada0706191723le1f9079md993ccbcfacc2803@mail.gmail.com> Tomorrow, I'll be packing up my 2600 and bringing it with me, just in case everything else fails... The connectors between a 2600 and 3600 are different, otherwise I could have gotten that to work. We do have a USB DVD drive hooked up to it; which EFI likes. (I understand that doesn't mean anything in relation to VMS installation...) We'd have tried it today, but the media is across town. Or, we are- did I already rant about nobody specifying the proper power supply, so we had to haul the machine across town to find 220V until the facilities electricians can get a 220 drop in the room it belongs in? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:24:25 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Message-ID: <579f5$46782d7a$cef8887a$10903@TEKSAVVY.COM> Michael Moroney wrote: > > I don't have access to any sort of DU controller based writelocked drive > to see if JF is right about that. DILOG'S controllers would make CD drives appears as RA82s. At 5.5-2, VMS would just complain that the drive is write locked during mount but still mount it. At 7.2, VMS would fail to mount it unless you specified /NOWRITE in the mount command. With this controller, VMS wouldn't have direct access to the device. It spoke MSCP to the DILOG controller. This is quite diffent from the DK drives where VMS speaks SCSI to the disks directly and has more intimate knowledge of their private bits. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:23:04 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >Michael Moroney wrote: >> >> I don't have access to any sort of DU controller based writelocked drive >> to see if JF is right about that. >DILOG'S controllers would make CD drives appears as RA82s. At 5.5-2, VMS >would just complain that the drive is write locked during mount but >still mount it. At 7.2, VMS would fail to mount it unless you specified >/NOWRITE in the mount command. >With this controller, VMS wouldn't have direct access to the device. It >spoke MSCP to the DILOG controller. This is quite diffent from the DK >drives where VMS speaks SCSI to the disks directly and has more intimate >knowledge of their private bits. In a normal mount, MOUNT modifies some volume specific fields such as bitmaps for caching, and wouldn't like it if it found the volume writelocked when trying to do so. If it sees the drive already writelocked or if /NOWRITE was specified, it won't, of course, try to modify anything. Sounds like the writelock bit is not set. The MSCP protocol passes a writelocked status from the server to the client (in two forms, hardware & software writelocked) so the client (DUDRIVER) sets writelocked appropiately. Since you mentioned using DILOG controllers, my guess is they didn't get the protocol quite right. Since I don't believe DEC/CPQ/HP published the MSCP spec, they may have reverse engineered it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:00:06 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > Alternate gateway: SMTP-RELAY.DYNACCESS.DE > > > > He only accepts email from customers whose dynamic IP address has > > recently updated the corresponding DNS entry. Having said that, the IP > > address is the ONLY criterion, provided of course that one is not > > spamming. > > Thanks for the reminder, but I have an existing .ch address, and it > appears that even the Business C rate won't let me do that (although it > appears able to do .de, .com, .net etc) I believe the SMTP-Relay-Server kicks in at HeartBeat A. (It is of course independent of the HeartBeat feature, which might be interesting for other reasons. Some providers offer various services and one can mix and match. DynAccess has more and more services the more you pay, so you might "pay" for something you don't need, but on the other hand if you look at the total price it is probably cheaper than the competition.) With regard to the .ch address: I don't know if DynAccess will host a .ch domain, but there is nothing to stop you from listing the DynAccess DNS servers with whoever hosts your .ch domain. (I have some .info domains hosted by Schlund, and for the DNS I use DynDns.org.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:00:29 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <44df5$467827df$cef8887a$9446@TEKSAVVY.COM> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Huh? I just told you yesterday that I had an email form some that was > rejected because a major site is RBLed. It wasn't SPAM it was real > email. I have a friend locally who send stuff to me at my Army email > address because he has a Comcast account and some number of their > servers are on various RBL's so he can never be sure his emails will > get thru. These are not SPAM, theae are real messages from major players. > How can you say that only SPAM gets stopped? One can flip this around. If you need to deliver an important package, you will choose a professional courier company that has a good reputation with both you and the recipient. (internationally, this makes a difference). If you instead choose a courier that has bad reputation and the package doesn't get delivered, do you blame the recipient ? Your ISP is the "courier company". They need to work well with you, but also have a good reputation within the internet. If you choose to stay with an ISP whose SMTP servers are often on RBLs, then it is your own fault when some of your emails don't make it. Conversly, if you insist on staying with MSN/HOTMAIL which now drops emails instead of filing them in the user's spam folder, then it is your responsability when you don't receive emails. HOTMAIL is not following accepted procedure. It should either reject message during SMTP dialogue, issue a bounce message or file the message in the user's mailbox (either in a spam folder or in the real inbox). MSN/HOTMAIL now offer a paid service to have smaller ISP registered for "assured delivery". So dropping emails from small shops is part of their strategy to get senders to pay to ensure their emails get to hotmail/msn recipients. RBL services are now standard. And with an RBL, you do not violate the spirit of RFC821 because you block the message before accepting responsability and the sending SMTP server then has responsability to advise user that message was refused. It is up to the sender to then inquire why his ISP cannot deliver emails. And if the sender insists on staying with an ISP that is constantly on RBLs because they do not manage their network properly, then that is his responsability, not that of the recipient SMTP servers who do their job and block mail coming for disreputable IPs. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 19:20:11 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dqojaF35nb2oU1@mid.individual.net> In article <44df5$467827df$cef8887a$9446@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Huh? I just told you yesterday that I had an email form some that was >> rejected because a major site is RBLed. It wasn't SPAM it was real >> email. I have a friend locally who send stuff to me at my Army email >> address because he has a Comcast account and some number of their >> servers are on various RBL's so he can never be sure his emails will >> get thru. These are not SPAM, theae are real messages from major players. >> How can you say that only SPAM gets stopped? > > One can flip this around. > > If you need to deliver an important package, you will choose a > professional courier company that has a good reputation with both you > and the recipient. (internationally, this makes a difference). If you > instead choose a courier that has bad reputation and the package doesn't > get delivered, do you blame the recipient ? > > > Your ISP is the "courier company". They need to work well with you, but > also have a good reputation within the internet. If you choose to stay > with an ISP whose SMTP servers are often on RBLs, then it is your own > fault when some of your emails don't make it. You're not listening. We still have lots of places here where there is no choice. We all don't live in the city. There are places in the US where there are no ISP's and the nearest is a long distance call way. And, let's take the case of Comcast. That's like giving your package to FedEx. Big name. See it on TV all the time. You kind of assume they actually work. But guess what, they don't. And most users never know it. The first hint I had that my friend was having trouble was when he sent me an email from his government account to my government account asking why I never resoponded to any of his messages. I take that to mean either he never got the Reject messages (my server sends them) or he couldn't decipher them and jus deleted them anyway. > > Conversly, if you insist on staying with MSN/HOTMAIL which now drops > emails instead of filing them in the user's spam folder, then it is your > responsability when you don't receive emails. HOTMAIL is not following > accepted procedure. Isn't HOTMAIL an MS operation? MS doesn't follow procedures, it establishes them. Where have you been? > It should either reject message during SMTP > dialogue, issue a bounce message or file the message in the user's > mailbox (either in a spam folder or in the real inbox). So you say. But you don;t own or run their servers and like it or not they are free to do whatever they want. Caveat Emptor. > MSN/HOTMAIL now > offer a paid service to have smaller ISP registered for "assured > delivery". So dropping emails from small shops is part of their strategy > to get senders to pay to ensure their emails get to hotmail/msn recipients. And this suprises you? Now I am sure this an MS operation. > RBL services are now standard. And with an RBL, you do not violate the > spirit of RFC821 because you block the message before accepting > responsability and the sending SMTP server then has responsability to > advise user that message was refused. With a message that may not get through or even if it does likely won't be understood. So, might as well not send them. I have also told people here I get piles of bogus Reject messages every day. Most carry another interesting payload. And I certainly wouldn't visit some random webpage because a Reject mesage who's validity I can not verify told me to. > > It is up to the sender to then inquire why his ISP cannot deliver > emails. If he even knows. > And if the sender insists on staying with an ISP that is > constantly on RBLs because they do not manage their network properly, > then that is his responsability, not that of the recipient SMTP servers > who do their job and block mail coming for disreputable IPs. Unless he only has one ISP to choose from or much more likely doesn't have a clue what you just said. The average user doesn't have a clue what RBL means. That's geek speak. It's nice to sit here and blame the user or one of the thousands of Mom&Pop ISP's out there that haven't got a clue what their doing and run on a shoestring so thin their idea of an IT Pro is that 14 year old Linux weenie down the street. But none of this is fixing the problem. The methods being used today have proven ineffective. The Pro SPAMers can adapt faster than you you can come up with new ideas. And the Mom&Pop ISP's don't know how to implement any of it anyway. At some point people will have to admit that the system is broken and very likely not repairable. Then maybe we can start looking at a new way of doing it that eliminates the weaknesses that make the old system so vulnerable. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 21:01:31 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Proof that, at least once, DEC had a marketing budget Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/18/07 08:09, Bob Koehler wrote: > > In article , Ron Johnson > > writes: > >> http://computerworld.com.edgesuite.net/digital_mainframe_11981.jpg > >> > > > > Note that they weren't marketing VMS. > Yeah, I saw that... :\ Also, that ad is from 1981, Jupiter was canceled in 1983. Zane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:01:35 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Question for the Group Message-ID: <1182304895.309585.293700@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 18, 10:45 am, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote: > In article <1182170373.940695.261...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, AEF > > writes: > > > I thought VMS was a higher-margin product than that. Maybe not. I > > think it certainly used to be and people were willing to pay more for > > quality. > > I don't know either, since the numbers at openvms.org aren't further > specified and I"m not inclined to wade through HPs entire business > report. > > > > > One failure doesn't prove anything. If Windows didn't succeed through > > marketing, then how did it succeed? Certainly not through techincal > > excellence! > > Sure it was also marketing, but Windoze, as buggy as it may be, > gave the masses what they wanted, some toy they could play games, > edit their letters and (later) surf the internet. > That those boxes crashed 10 times a day didn't matter much, > apparently. It was second rank. Pardon my ignorance, but didn't Apple do the same? What did they do wrong? > > > WTC success stories. > > And how often should I assume WTC-like events will happen ? And how often do the stories in North Star ads happen? (From the viewpoint of an individual, i.e.?) There are other disasters as JF pointed out. > > > Just general promotion to at least keep things > > from sliding further. There's some good promotional material on HP's > > Web site. Make a few ads from it. Nothing expensive. What would it > > hurt? > > Well, I agree, some "we're still there" message wouldn't hurt. > I seem to remember IBM ads for their legacy systems > carrying a similar message, every now and then. > But beating the big marketing drum without real new stuff behind > would be a waste of money. OK, so let's at least have some "maintenance" ads. > > > Others advertise security. Why not VMS? Why not back it up with > > something? What would it hurt? > > Nothing, but would it help ? Everybody claims to be "secure" > these days. Now if VMS would have some security certificate > from NSA or whoever issues such things, putting them five notches > above the usual Unix crowd, that would be something to brag about. And those who claim security are doing better than VMS. So, if VMS claimed security, it should do better, too, no? > OTOH, "security" these days means to organize your IT so > that it has minimum cross section to the evil internet, > rather than the choice of a particular OS. > Raise a firewall, hide business critical systems and > important databases etc. Which isn't really enough. Make ads claiming so and that demonstrate how VMS does more than that. > > But they need security and quality. I'm not convinced VMS's clustering > > is so bad. > > I wouldn't say it's bad, but the vast majority of sites > apart from the usual suspect won't need it that desperately. > So it would not be the great differentiator. > A vehicle on 6 wheels might be great off-road, > but isn't such an advantage if one just drives down-town for shopping > (apart from trying to impress people, but thats neither economical > nor ecological) Yeah, not everyone needs clustering. But I think many would benefit from it. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:07:49 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Question for the Group Message-ID: <1182305269.552071.29800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jun 18, 11:33 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1182170604.972712.141...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > > On Jun 18, 7:45 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <1182136373.566444.243...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > >> AEF writes: > > >> > On Jun 13, 4:46 am, Michael Kraemer wrote: > >> >> AEF schrieb: > >> > [...] > >> >> > Again you're justifying letting the patient die by saying, "Look, the > >> >> > patient is dying. Let's go home." It's the POTENTIAL profits. High- > >> >> > margin profits. > > >> >> > History has proved that companies are willing to spend more for VMS if > >> >> > it weren't allowed to languish as it is. Would it kill HP to try? > >> >> > Would the shareholders revolt if profits from VMS increased? Doesn't > >> >> > it make sense to market your high-margin products? > > >> >> Well, I'm not in HPs shoes and I have no business > >> >> in defending their actions, I just find their strategy comprehensible. > >> >> Why should they put extra effort on such a tiny fraction of their business ? > > >> > Because VMS systems have higher margins. Suppose that HP replaced all > >> > its customers' Windows systems with VMS systems. > > >> That wold be a mighty big supposition as it is impossible. > > >> > This would cause a > >> > big increase in profits, no? This would have the added advantage of > >> > not having to deal with MS or Linux. And HP would have a hold on the > >> > customers. And the customers would greatly benefit from a very > >> > superior operating system. What horrors am I missing in this scenario? > > >> How about the fact that it can't be done and that the investment that > >> wold be needed to do it would be astronomical with little cahnce to > >> rrecoup the investment as your just not going to displace Windows. > >> Other options exist today and they never get more than a tiny percent > >> of the market dominated by Windows. > > > So do what you can! > > I and others have. In the end, we lost. It's not is our hands and the one > in who's hands it is just plain doesn't care. I appreciate your and others' efforts. A big thank you! > >> > And how much extra effort would it really take? Just take a reasonable > >> > fraction of VMS's profits to do some marketing and see what happens. > >> > Would it kill anyone to do so? > > >> It would take millions of dollars and god only knows how many man years > >> to come up with equivalent software for VMS to displave Windows. > > > So start small. You don't have to completely displace Windows to just > > try to increase sales a little. It's not an all-or-nothing thing. > > If you start small then the money will just appear to run down the > toilet with no return and the spigot will be shut back off real fast. Maybe. > >> >> Even if VMS revenue was several times larger at the time of > >> >> the Compaq takeover, it still was dwarfed by HPs ink ocean. > > >> > So were its calculator revenues. Should they let their calculator > >> > business whither away? > > >> I kinda thought they had. My latest calculator is a Casio and I really > >> don't remember the last time I saw an HP calculator anywhere but in the > >> junk drawer of desk at home (I have two of them, onde dating back to my > >> high school days!) > > > Hmmm. I haven't checked recently. > > >> > So why don't they just drop everything else and re-brand themselves as > >> > INKS R US? They could rewrite their motto: The hell with invent. Ink > >> > it up! > > >> Because they are making money the way the do it now. "If it ain't broke, > >> don't fix it." And from their point of view it ain't. > > > That doesn't mean they can't do better. > > But "they" don't see any reason to do at all. But "they" could be wrong. > >> >> As far as the potential goes: I think (as does probably HP) > >> >> you vastly overestimate that, the hey-days of VMS are long gone. > > >> > Again you repeat the self-defeating logic: "Why fix something that's > >> > broken?" Well, you don't fix something that's not broken!!! > > >> > So if VMS is so lame, why doesn't HP sell it? > > >> Cash cow. It is returning money on a basicly near zero investment. > > Well, all the more reason to do at least a little advertising to keep > > the cash coming! Would it kill anyone to try? > > I think you miss the point of a cash cow. You milk it all you can while > not putting a dime in the slot. And when it goes dry you send it to the > slaughter house. Well, cows do need to eat some grass every now and then. If I had a cash cow I certainly wouldn't want to let it wither away. At least some marketing/feeding would seem appropriate, at least something more than just what's on the Web site. > >> > In fact, why don't they > >> > sell the entire BCS division if it's such tiny a portion of HP's > >> > revenues or profits? (I don't really know how big BCS is in HP, so > >> > maybe ignore this last statement. Correction welcome.) > > >> See above. :-) > > >> >> The few companies who still believe VMS is indispensable for their > >> >> IT will buy it anyway, without marketing. > > >> > That's EXACTLY why VMS needs marketing: To be sold to people who may > >> > not find it "indispensable", but to whom VMS would still be a better > >> > choice. ... Hey, VMS is always the better choice, no? :-) > > >> Not when you make most of your money selling Windows boxes. > > > But couldn't you make MORE money selling VMS? > > Not necessarily. Depends on what it costs and how it compares to what > you get back. It could end up costing money. And HP seems unwilling > to take that risk. > > > > >> > Yet again you return with your self-defeating "Why fix something > >> > that's broken?" logic. > > >> But it isn't broken in their view, only in ours. > > > Can't argue with that! > > Your points are interesting but, unfortunately, you are once again > preaching to the choir. The people who control the situation are > never going to see this and, right or wrong, it is going to have > no influence ont heir decisions regarding the future of VMS. At least I won't be kicking my own butt for not having tried. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:48:13 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) Message-ID: <1182307693.937246.310980@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> OK, here's the link: http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/customgo.asp?find=P38_FEATURE&id=18488&pageid=29&country=United+States Apologies if it wraps badly. OK, here's my question: Is this good or bad as regards VMS? (This question is for everyone EXCEPT JF as I already know what his answer will be :-) Excerpt: "In fact, the harder you try to declare a technology dead, it seems, the more you turn up evidence of its continuing existence." Is this JF's motivation? ;-) JF: I appreciate your enthusiasm for VMS, but your recent death declaration based on Ken Robinson's posted Computerworld articles is interpreting Ann's comments in the worst possible way -- stretching, even. Yes, they don't give any hope for HP to try to grow VMS, but neither do they mean its death is imminent (where is Rob Young?). AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:19:46 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) Message-ID: <8660a3a10706192019n376a5f64ld5dca7a02600ebfd@mail.gmail.com> ------=_Part_66672_30317123.1182309586148 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/19/07, AEF wrote: > > > OK, here's the link: > > > http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/customgo.asp?find=P38_FEATURE&id=18488&pageid=29&country=United+States > > Apologies if it wraps badly. > > OK, here's my question: Is this good or bad as regards VMS? (This > question is for everyone EXCEPT JF as I already know what his answer > will be :-) > > Excerpt: > > "In fact, the harder you try to declare a technology dead, it seems, > the more you turn up evidence of its continuing existence." > > Is this JF's motivation? ;-) > > JF: I appreciate your enthusiasm for VMS, but your recent death > declaration based on Ken Robinson's posted Computerworld articles is > interpreting Ann's comments in the worst possible way -- stretching, > even. Yes, they don't give any hope for HP to try to grow VMS, but > neither do they mean its death is imminent (where is Rob Young?). > > AEF > > He's in Pennsylvania. I met with him recently. WWWebb ------=_Part_66672_30317123.1182309586148 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 6/19/07, AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

OK, here's the link:

http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/customgo.asp?find=P38_FEATURE&id=18488&pageid=29&country=United+States

Apologies if it wraps badly.

OK, here's my question: Is this good or bad as regards VMS? (This
question is for everyone EXCEPT JF as I already know what his answer
will be :-)

Excerpt:

"In fact, the harder you try to declare a technology dead, it seems,
the more you turn up evidence of its continuing existence."

Is this JF's motivation? ;-)

JF: I appreciate your enthusiasm for VMS, but your recent death
declaration based on Ken Robinson's posted Computerworld articles is
interpreting Ann's comments in the worst possible way -- stretching,
even. Yes, they don't give any hope for HP to try to grow VMS, but
neither do they mean its death is imminent (where is Rob Young?).

AEF

He's in Pennsylvania.  I met with him recently.

WWWebb
 
------=_Part_66672_30317123.1182309586148-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:36:10 -0700 From: "winston19842005@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) Message-ID: <1182317770.300327.22650@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jun 19, 10:48 pm, AEF wrote: > OK, here's the link: > > http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/customgo.asp?find=P38_FEATURE... > > Apologies if it wraps badly. > > OK, here's my question: Is this good or bad as regards VMS? (This > question is for everyone EXCEPT JF as I already know what his answer > will be :-) > > Excerpt: > > "In fact, the harder you try to declare a technology dead, it seems, > the more you turn up evidence of its continuing existence." > > Is this JF's motivation? ;-) > > JF: I appreciate your enthusiasm for VMS, but your recent death > declaration based on Ken Robinson's posted Computerworld articles is > interpreting Ann's comments in the worst possible way -- stretching, > even. Yes, they don't give any hope for HP to try to grow VMS, but > neither do they mean its death is imminent (where is Rob Young?). > > AEF This was already beat to death on alt.folklore.computers if anyone is interested... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:33:46 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: UCX Printer connection Via LPD Message-ID: <467883FA.BCE8E9C6@spam.comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > [snip] > Or, in other words, it may not be VMS's fault. VMS's fault? Certainly not! Now, UCX on the other hand... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.333 ************************