INFO-VAX Tue, 19 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 332 Contents: Re: 8086 vs patches Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Console monitoring programs Re: help set host/scsi Re: help set host/scsi Re: help set host/scsi Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: Itanium hardware Q Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Oracle Installation Failure After Installation of VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 Patch Kit Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMASg email servers (was: Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Trade 8.3 IA64 kit for 8.3 Alpha Re: UCX Printer connection Via LPD [OT] GPS and driving was: Re: PLUG: PMAS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Jun 2007 06:59:17 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: 8086 vs patches Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > I though plated wire replaced core some 25 years ago. I know IBM was still > making core (in Böblingen, IIRC) into the early 80's 25 years is a short time in the space business. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:51:31 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > As many here have said, education is a necessary cost of doing business. > > The cost should not be borne by the employee. > > > However, if you are self employed and pitching your services to a > potential customer, it doesn't look good if you want him to not only pay > for your courses, but also consider you will be doing work for them > during the courses (eg: get paid), especially for very short contracts. Not a good enough argument to persuade the UK Paymaster General, I'm afraid. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:52:01 -0400 From: "Hal Kuff" Subject: Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Message-ID: Robert, thanxs for the reply.... nope..! That's not it... so anyone actually have one of these things? You know we have e-mailed the HDS product manager (James Wilson) several times in the past and frankly I'm not sure they really care about OpenVMS....Seems like a nice fellow.... but zip on support... "Rob Brooks" wrote in message news:FmyKWkL7O0nH@cuebid.zko.hp.com... > "Hal Kuff" writes: >> Hi, anyone out there using XP Series Arrays can lend a hand understanding >> why we can present storage but the show dev/multipath command yields >> nothing >> on either 7.3-2 Alpha or 8.3 Itanium? > > I assume you've veried the standard physical layer components (HBA, > cabling, > switches, etc . . .) are all in working order. > > Someone mistakenly set MPDEV_ENABLE = 0? > > -- > > Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 09:09:49 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: Anyone using HDS XP Series Arrays? Message-ID: <$YqBMi7Vbbu$@cuebid.zko.hp.com> "Hal Kuff" writes: > Robert, thanxs for the reply.... nope..! That's not it... so anyone actually > have one of these things? You know we have e-mailed the HDS product manager > (James Wilson) several times in the past and frankly I'm not sure they > really care about OpenVMS....Seems like a nice fellow.... but zip on > support... I know that we resell that storage array, that VMS Engineering has at least one in the lab, and I have seen multipath work correctly on that array, although I wasn't involved in configuring it. You might get better presales support if you contact your HP rep/reseller. -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:43:00 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Console monitoring programs Message-ID: <1182271380.154128.196080@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Has anyone attempted to port Conserver (www.conserver.com) to OpenVMS? Or is there any free or open-source or hobbyist licensed replacement for the Polycenter Cluster Console application? John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:05:25 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: help set host/scsi Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > I use this to talk to the HSG80 controllers, why no HELP, it's been around > for a while? That is a CLD-level hook for the separately-installed and how-retired HSZterm, one of various mechanisms used to connect to storage over the years. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:09:56 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: help set host/scsi Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:05:25 -0700, Stephen Hoffman = wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> I use this to talk to the HSG80 controllers, why no HELP, it's been = >> around >> for a while? > > That is a CLD-level hook for the separately-installed and how-retir= ed = > HSZterm, one of various mechanisms used to connect to storage over the= = > years. > Understood, I was commenting on the fact that there was no help availabl= e = on it although I didn't go farther back than 7.3, and according to the comment= = the hook was added in 1996. In fact, looking at the qualifiers in set.cld there = = appear to be others that aren't documented with help qualifier lat, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_lat qualifier sna, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_sna qualifier bts, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_bts qualifier dup, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_dup qualifier hsc, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_hsc qualifier x29, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_x29 qualifier dte, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_dte qualifier vtp nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_vtp qualifier mop, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_mop qualifier scsi, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_scsi qualifier rlogin, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_rlogin qualifier telnet, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_telnet qualifier tn3270, nonnegatable,syntax=3Dset_host_tn3270 /APPLICATION_PROTOCOL /BUFFER_SIZE /LOG /MOP /RESTORE Examples /DTE /DUP /HSC /LAT /RLOGIN = /TELNET /TN3270 I was mostly just curious what the other undocumented qualifiers, btslin= k, = vtpad, psipad, were used for, to old for google I guess:-). ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 11:52:11 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: help set host/scsi Message-ID: "Tom Linden" writes: > appear to be others that aren't documented with help [...] > qualifier tn3270, nonnegatable,syntax=set_host_tn3270 Most of those are documented with the products that install and make use of them. -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 07:06:06 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: In article <5dobj3F35ajpjU4@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Well, maybe by the usual definition, but I doubt you will find 5 people > involved in government procurements of software that will agree with you. > That's if you can find 5 people involved in government procurements who > have ever even heard of it. I know about 12 people who purchase VMS for the government as a COTS product. Government purchasing agents handle a wide variety of things. They don't all run arond buying $400 hammers. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 07:24:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: In article <4b606$4676e7cb$cef8887a$29134@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > > Wouldn't a byte range lock do the same as a record lock ? > > Don't unixes have the ability to have byte range locks in files ? The failure to have records leads to the inability to alter records. If you look at the C FAQ on how to update a record, it will tell you you don't, instead you rewrite the file. Both UNIX and C were born and bread with byte stream as thier only file concept. This leads to trivial applications using expensive DBMS. And its a real pain for folks who want to write a Fortran library for UNIX, or support any other language that does have record processing concepts, because they then have to write their own RMS, which common utilities like more, cat, and lpr don't understand. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:48:14 -0700 From: yyyc186 Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <1182257294.089420.19570@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 18, 3:14 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > yyyc186 wrote: > > No version of Linux/Unix I have ever looked at has an OS Kernel level > > concept of a record. This means you cannot ever cluster. Without the > > concept of a record, you cannot have a lock manager. > > Wouldn't a byte range lock do the same as a record lock ? > > Don't unixes have the ability to have byte range locks in files ? No. There is no Byte Range Management System through which the Byte Range read request would be issued. No. Applications can impose such (i.e. Relational Databases which provide there own IO operations.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:52:17 -0700 From: yyyc186 Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <1182257537.905883.275600@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 19, 7:06 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <5dobj3F35ajp...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > > Well, maybe by the usual definition, but I doubt you will find 5 people > > involved in government procurements of software that will agree with you. > > That's if you can find 5 people involved in government procurements who > > have ever even heard of it. > > I know about 12 people who purchase VMS for the government as a COTS > product. Government purchasing agents handle a wide variety of > things. They don't all run arond buying $400 hammers. True, Some buy $800 toilet seats and $12.00 wooden pencils. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:24:51 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: In article <1182257537.905883.275600@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, yyyc186 wrote: > On Jun 19, 7:06 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: > > In article <5dobj3F35ajp...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > > Gunshannon) writes: > > > > > Well, maybe by the usual definition, but I doubt you will find 5 people > > > involved in government procurements of software that will agree with you. > > > That's if you can find 5 people involved in government procurements who > > > have ever even heard of it. > > > > I know about 12 people who purchase VMS for the government as a COTS > > product. Government purchasing agents handle a wide variety of > > things. They don't all run arond buying $400 hammers. > > True, > > Some buy $800 toilet seats and $12.00 wooden pencils. It's not just the military, It happens for schools too. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:57:58 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <4677E0E6.8000302@comcast.net> yyyc186 wrote: > On Jun 19, 7:06 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: > >>In article <5dobj3F35ajp...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >>>Well, maybe by the usual definition, but I doubt you will find 5 people >>>involved in government procurements of software that will agree with you. >>>That's if you can find 5 people involved in government procurements who >>>have ever even heard of it. >> >> I know about 12 people who purchase VMS for the government as a COTS >> product. Government purchasing agents handle a wide variety of >> things. They don't all run arond buying $400 hammers. > > > True, > > Some buy $800 toilet seats and $12.00 wooden pencils. > I think the toilet seat is actually $15 or $20. The extra $780 is for certifying compliance with several thousand pages of government specifications and regulations! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:06:35 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: Stone circles filled of fire are seen on the mountaintops, signaling the the faithful from the surrounding countryside. Many and giant frames of logs are roaring in hundreds of separate fires along the beach. Orange light flickers across the faces of the arriving mourners. Mist and fog and smoke mix together, and hang over the inlet. A thunderstorm is just visible over the open ocean, out beyond the entrance of the fjord. Mournful wailing from the c.o.v. chorus reverberates. Members of the family and the royal court assemble. Some cry. Some are stoic. The earthly husk of a rainbow-sheened DVD is carried out on a RL02 disk platter shield, and mounted on a wooden platform amidships on the longboat. A tankard of Guiness is raised in final salute. The sounds of wailing increase, from an increasing wind and some from the mourners. A torch is touched to the longboat, and the long and low-slung vessel slowly begins to burn. Once fully afire, the ship is cast off, and drifts out into the fjord on a steady-increasing wind, out toward the rumbling storm. The pyre continues to increase, and the vessel's sails themselves are now flickering alight. Light from the longboat now dances across the wooded mountainsides, and across the water itself. Ghostly wisps of smoke and fire arise like spirits or ghosts, twist together, and drift away ahead of the longboat, leading the vessel forward. Somewhere, a bagpipe sounds and its lonesome notes echo off the distant peaks, as the longboat slips gracefully from view into the mists of the impending storm. But seriously, if you believe this cancellation is going to arise, then you'll want to look at your particular exposures. Mac OS X and Windows will eventually end. Yes, even Linux. x86-32 is ending now, as we watch. And if a platform doesn't "end", it'll morph into something that few here would ever recognize as being related. This takes years or decades, but it happens. In many environments, little or no extra effort need occur even in the face of the frantic yammering and the FUD storms, prior to the next deployment cycle. ECOs to current, upgrades, etc.; tasks that are normal best-practices tasks. Some folks will even sit on a configuration, sans ECOs and upgrades, and this too can be a perfectly viable and appropriate strategy when the correct considerations are in place. Most folks already in a deployment cycle know if they need long-term sources for parts and services, and will source contracts for that. For smaller deployments, look at how you can deploy dual-use solutions; where upgrades and enhancements also make porting easier. This can involve using XML to get information into and out of the environment, using tools such as ProgreSQL or a commercial SQL rather than RMS, and other similar operations. XML and a good relational database can benefit both the current environment, and can ease a port. This can also include documenting your code and your build procedures and your processes. Barring cases where your porting window is significantly longer than the window your current hardware might survive, the usual course of action is to ignore all frantic yammering and the FUD do what you have been doing; to keep using the software and the hardware. If your hardware is aging and you believe your porting window is potentially longer, you may well want to look at upgrading to a newer VAX, Alpha or Integrity; this to ensure a source of newer parts. You can also acquire a source of spare parts, possibly sourcing and storing several servers. Frantic yammering and FUD often exist solely to get someone (you, a vendor, etc) to spend money on something you might not otherwise spend money on. And yes, a somewhat contrarian approach: if you believe your platform is going away, then you should seriously consider a move to the most current versions and configurations. Don't stay on ill-supported or already-ancient hardware and software. Why? That'll tend to force your hand and force your port sooner than with a configuration using more recent hardware and software. And an upgrade to a current configuration will (almost?) inevitably be easier than a port to a different configuration. And look around: there are still some folks around that are dealing with and that are specializing in moving forward from truly ancient hardware and software. Some will point to emulation, and that's a reasonable option. That's an easy way to get off of failing hardware. Realize that emulation does tie you to a lower-level software and hardware stack; if what software and hardware your emulator is based on goes away and your chosen emulator doesn't get upgraded, you are again in an environment no different than having your hardware go away. An emulation environment is inherently somewhat harder to maintain. In particular, it is both more complex; you have to manage and maintain the underlying "hardware" with new virus definitions or kernel patches or... and from where ever you are getting those. As for the correctness of an emulation, even successfully booting OpenVMS itself tests only a fraction of the full architected environment. Some of the errors can be quite subtle. A good emulator will have these worked out, though a good emulator is still a large and complex project, and an emulator is still based on another operating system, and all of that stack must be maintained to keep your client environment running. Support for x86 hardware is itself no panacea. More than a few applications based on 8086 are impossible to move forward to current-generation hardware, meaning these 8086 applications are trapped on dead-end iron. (Where have I heard that phrase before?) And there are various x86-based environments that have been discontinued over the years, when a key vendor exited the market, or when an or open-source team evaporated. As for some other discussions relevant to OpenVMS itself... http://64.223.189.234/node/225 http://64.223.189.234/node/226 Some folks can and do profit from getting you to port, so there'll be no end to the yammering and the FUD; FUD sells, after all. (I'd certainly seek to profit if I convinced you to use HoffmanLabs to port your code from OpenVMS to Mac OS X and Xserve and Xserve RAID gear, for instance.) There are other ways that folks can profit from yammering, it doesn't have to be financial. There are other forms of "profit". If you remember nothing else here, do remember that any effort and any expenditures involved with porting your applications are wasted until and unless you succeed; until the code is ported and operational. And if you are deploying a wholly new system, the considerations are the same regardless of the vendor and the platform -- how much do you pay up front, and how much do you pay over time. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 14:22:51 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <5dq75qF34k3lsU1@mid.individual.net> In article <4677E0E6.8000302@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > yyyc186 wrote: >> On Jun 19, 7:06 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >> Koehler) wrote: >> >>>In article <5dobj3F35ajp...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>> >>>>Well, maybe by the usual definition, but I doubt you will find 5 people >>>>involved in government procurements of software that will agree with you. >>>>That's if you can find 5 people involved in government procurements who >>>>have ever even heard of it. >>> >>> I know about 12 people who purchase VMS for the government as a COTS >>> product. Government purchasing agents handle a wide variety of >>> things. They don't all run arond buying $400 hammers. >> >> >> True, >> >> Some buy $800 toilet seats and $12.00 wooden pencils. >> > > I think the toilet seat is actually $15 or $20. The extra $780 is for > certifying compliance with several thousand pages of government > specifications and regulations! You know, people always trot out this stuff as examples of contracors ripping off the taxpayers but no one ever bothers to look at the real reason for such absurdities. Consider you are a businessman with a forging plant. You are contracted to tool-up and make a hammer. But not a standard hammer. This one has to be made out of a special alloy of steel with a different mixture of materials like the percentage of Nickel. Oh yes, and it can't be a standard 12 oz. hammer. This one has to weigh 11,37 oz. +/- .25 oz. Got it so far? OK, let's price it. Oh, wait, the customer is only going to buy three of them. Now, take all the costs of doing this, add a little profit (your a business, not a charity) and what do you have to charge for them? I spent plenty of time doing contracting, on both sides of the table. Most of the blame for this stupidity lies on the government side. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:16:27 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:22:51 -0700, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <4677E0E6.8000302@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> yyyc186 wrote: >>> On Jun 19, 7:06 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob >>> Koehler) wrote: >>> >>>> In article <5dobj3F35ajp...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu >>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well, maybe by the usual definition, but I doubt you will find 5 >>>>> people >>>>> involved in government procurements of software that will agree with >>>>> you. >>>>> That's if you can find 5 people involved in government procurements >>>>> who >>>>> have ever even heard of it. >>>> >>>> I know about 12 people who purchase VMS for the government as a COTS >>>> product. Government purchasing agents handle a wide variety of >>>> things. They don't all run arond buying $400 hammers. >>> >>> >>> True, >>> >>> Some buy $800 toilet seats and $12.00 wooden pencils. >>> >> >> I think the toilet seat is actually $15 or $20. The extra $780 is for >> certifying compliance with several thousand pages of government >> specifications and regulations! > You know, people always trot out this stuff as examples of contracors > ripping off the taxpayers but no one ever bothers to look at the real > reason for such absurdities. > > Consider you are a businessman with a forging plant. You are contracted > to tool-up and make a hammer. But not a standard hammer. This one has > to be made out of a special alloy of steel with a different mixture of > materials like the percentage of Nickel. Oh yes, and it can't be a > standard 12 oz. hammer. This one has to weigh 11,37 oz. +/- .25 oz. > Got it so far? OK, let's price it. Oh, wait, the customer is only > going to buy three of them. Now, take all the costs of doing this, add > a little profit (your a business, not a charity) and what do you have to > charge for them? > > I spent plenty of time doing contracting, on both sides of the table. > Most of the blame for this stupidity lies on the government side. In the early 70's I was responsible for the design of major portions of the ground segment for the first Meteosat. When writing the specs to put the work to tender for industry, both HW and SW, I was unable to get any guidance regarding availability requirements. The mission was to collect image, IR data from a 100 rpm satellite scanning the earth two lines at a time with a step mirror to produce an image of 5K x 5K 6bit pixels, thus 25 minutes, allowing 5 minutes to return the mirrors to start position and damping the concomitant nutation. A second mission was as a communications satellite to disseminate the data to the European Met centres every 1/2 hour. So unable to get a figure from the mission planners, I wrote TBD in the document, but my boss said I had to put in a number, so I wrote 0.9999 We ended receiving quotations for an elborate design not unlike what Tandem and Stratus came up with some years later, and a brand new OS from ICL that supported real-time. I pointed later that I had made up the number and was planning to put in the 'real' number when given it, but never was. Given the nature of the mission (largely scientific) and the processes involved 4 9s was certainly excessive, likely 2 or 3 would have been accurate. I suspect the price is probably proportional to the exponent of the number of places:-) So it cost a lot, but the money just rotates in society anyway, in the case, a positive net for France:-) Tom > > bill > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:44:23 -0700 From: BaxterD@tessco.com Subject: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: <1182267863.430476.158840@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> We have an issue with displaying multipath devices presented from an XP10000 to OpenVMS 7.3-2 (Alpha) and OpenVMS 8.3 (IA64). We would love to hear from ANYone who is running XP storage with OpenVMS!! Dave. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 11:54:24 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: BaxterD@tessco.com writes: > We have an issue with displaying multipath devices presented from > an XP10000 to OpenVMS 7.3-2 (Alpha) and OpenVMS 8.3 (IA64). > > We would love to hear from ANYone who is running XP storage with > OpenVMS!! Why don't you ask the vendor for a list of references? -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:05:54 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:44:23 -0700, wrote: > We have an issue with displaying multipath devices presented from > an XP10000 to OpenVMS 7.3-2 (Alpha) and OpenVMS 8.3 (IA64). > > We would love to hear from ANYone who is running XP storage with > OpenVMS!! > > Dave. > Have 3 XP1000s each with 2 HBA to two switches to two controllers. running 7.3-2, 8.2, 8.3. What is the problem? h -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:07:30 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Is NOONE using XP10000 & OpenVMS??? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:05:54 -0700, Tom Linden wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:44:23 -0700, wrote: > >> We have an issue with displaying multipath devices presented from >> an XP10000 to OpenVMS 7.3-2 (Alpha) and OpenVMS 8.3 (IA64). >> >> We would love to hear from ANYone who is running XP storage with >> OpenVMS!! >> >> Dave. >> > Have 3 XP1000s each with 2 HBA to two switches to two controllers. > running 7.3-2, 8.2, 8.3. What is the problem? > > h Sorry, misread. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:27:54 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article <3f119ada0706182034ge42965aje56dd4c0ce7d788b@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW wrote: > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. > While they're getting that sorted and obtaining one (one way or > another) can anyone tell me if the one in my RX2600 work (for > straightforward "plug and play" values of work, so I can get some > software onto this thing? > > Amongst other things, I need to get some EFI modules onto it... and if > I succeed in doing that, I'll have to reload the OS. > > Any other options? The rx2600 DVD drive probably won't fit mechanically in the rx3600. If you solve that problem, there's a reasonable chance it will work. A random off-the-shelf USB DVD drive would likely work in one of the USB ports. For moving EFI files, it is straightforward to use a USB flash drive and a windows-based PC, if you have access to those. There are other ways, but they are not particularly documented or supported. I'm assuming you want to load VMS... Configure a recent VMS Alpha or Integrity server with the Infoserver software and bootp and tftp services. Make the V8.3 Integrity installation DVD (or an image of same) into an Infoserver service. Boot the rx3600 via the Infoserver and install VMS. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:26:38 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: DeanW wrote: > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. > While they're getting that sorted and obtaining one (one way or > another) can anyone tell me if the one in my RX2600 work (for > straightforward "plug and play" values of work, so I can get some > software onto this thing? Haven't tried that particular pair for a swap, but (surprisingly) some of the Integrity servers used different mechanicals for their disk mounts; the kits were unique between the rx1600 and the rx2600, for instance. The drive kernel was the same, but the rails and retaining clips were different. > Amongst other things, I need to get some EFI modules onto it... and if > I succeed in doing that, I'll have to reload the OS. Robert mentions USB devices, and a good-quality DVD will usually work via MOUNT and such, as will USB key (flash) disks. There are tools to read FAT on OpenVMS for console-level operations including getting the bits from an ODS-2 or ODS-5 disk burned elsewhere into the EFI FAT partition, and there are some details around; you'll end up using EFI$CP to get the bits into the console environment -- this assuming the firmware disk itself isn't bootable. If it is, then things are rather easier. All that aside, the easiest and most direct approach to load a couple of modules is usually via the EFI console-level FTP, assuming the firmware files are on an FTP server and you have IP (and preferably DHCP) available. http://64.223.189.234/node/317 -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:45:08 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <4677DDE4.1060200@comcast.net> Stephen Hoffman wrote: > DeanW wrote: > >> A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. >> While they're getting that sorted and obtaining one (one way or >> another) can anyone tell me if the one in my RX2600 work (for >> straightforward "plug and play" values of work, so I can get some >> software onto this thing? > > > Haven't tried that particular pair for a swap, but (surprisingly) some > of the Integrity servers used different mechanicals for their disk > mounts; the kits were unique between the rx1600 and the rx2600, for > instance. The drive kernel was the same, but the rails and retaining > clips were different. Could it be that the same idiots who played this game at DEC for many years now work for HP? I can remember when there were at least twenty different models of the RZ-26 disk! The difference between models? The mounting hardware! It was not until comparatively late in the game that DEC developed StorageWorks. During the same period, no two systems used the same case or the same power supply. Everything was designed from scratch! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:09:32 -0700 From: DeanW Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: <3f119ada0706190709td956361yad82192bd5d6e644@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/07, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > DeanW wrote: > > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. > > While they're getting that sorted and obtaining one (one way or > > another) can anyone tell me if the one in my RX2600 work (for > > straightforward "plug and play" values of work, so I can get some > > software onto this thing? > > Haven't tried that particular pair for a swap, but (surprisingly) > some of the Integrity servers used different mechanicals for their disk > mounts; the kits were unique between the rx1600 and the rx2600, for Lovely. > Robert mentions USB devices, and a good-quality DVD will usually work > via MOUNT and such, as will USB key (flash) disks. OK, those are my options. I was under the impression that USB memory or DVD devices were still pretty much hit-or-miss, but if some reasonable percentage of those are expected to work, I can probably make this go. One of the big concerns was re-installing VMS after RAIDing the disks; if I can get it to boot off a USB DVD drive, I think I'm good. The InfoServer is a neat idea, but the prod VMS Alpha is an AS1200 on the far side of town (and a firewall or two); I'd pull out my last two handfuls of hair just trying to get it set up, and I'm saving them for something special. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:21:19 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: DeanW wrote: > On 6/19/07, Stephen Hoffman wrote: >> Haven't tried that particular pair for a swap, but (surprisingly) >> some of the Integrity servers used different mechanicals for their disk >> mounts; the kits were unique between the rx1600 and the rx2600, for > > Lovely. You can usually disassemble the drives down to the kernels and swap the rail and retaining clip kits -- if you have an existing drive kit for the target platform. Some of the Alpha configurations used a Multibay CD or DVD drive, which I thought was a slick solution. The drive was permanently mounted, and an adapter converted the Multibay drive connection into the requisite host cabling. >> Robert mentions USB devices, and a good-quality DVD will usually work >> via MOUNT and such, as will USB key (flash) disks. > > OK, those are my options. I was under the impression that USB memory > or DVD devices were still pretty much hit-or-miss, but if some > reasonable percentage of those are expected to work, I can probably > make this go. One of the big concerns was re-installing VMS after > RAIDing the disks; if I can get it to boot off a USB DVD drive, I > think I'm good. These are somewhat hit-or-miss. If you need to boot from the drive, do try it before going into production. (Do Not Ever Assume Any Form Of Compatibility Across Two CD or Two DVD Drives, Even Two From The Same Manufacturer. Emphasis Intended.) > > The InfoServer is a neat idea, but the prod VMS Alpha is an AS1200 on > the far side of town (and a firewall or two); I'd pull out my last two > handfuls of hair just trying to get it set up, and I'm saving them for > something special. Why not get a spare, and look at using that to cycle into production and to provide a way to service these boxes. Over time, migrate forward and use the existing AlphaServer 1200 as a backup. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:04:30 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: **BOOT** support for USB DVD disks on Itanium will not arrive until V8.3-1H1. You *MAY* be able to load VMS onto a USB hard drive and boot it on V8.3 - I'm not 100% sure. "DeanW" wrote in message news:3f119ada0706190709td956361yad82192bd5d6e644@mail.gmail.com... > On 6/19/07, Stephen Hoffman wrote: >> DeanW wrote: >> > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. >> > While they're getting that sorted and obtaining one (one way or >> > another) can anyone tell me if the one in my RX2600 work (for >> > straightforward "plug and play" values of work, so I can get some >> > software onto this thing? >> >> Haven't tried that particular pair for a swap, but (surprisingly) >> some of the Integrity servers used different mechanicals for their disk >> mounts; the kits were unique between the rx1600 and the rx2600, for > > Lovely. > >> Robert mentions USB devices, and a good-quality DVD will usually work >> via MOUNT and such, as will USB key (flash) disks. > > OK, those are my options. I was under the impression that USB memory > or DVD devices were still pretty much hit-or-miss, but if some > reasonable percentage of those are expected to work, I can probably > make this go. One of the big concerns was re-installing VMS after > RAIDing the disks; if I can get it to boot off a USB DVD drive, I > think I'm good. > > The InfoServer is a neat idea, but the prod VMS Alpha is an AS1200 on > the far side of town (and a firewall or two); I'd pull out my last two > handfuls of hair just trying to get it set up, and I'm saving them for > something special. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:48:48 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article , "FredK" wrote: > **BOOT** support for USB DVD disks on Itanium will not arrive until > V8.3-1H1. The native DVD drives for rx2600/rx3600/rx6600 are USB, and VMS V8.3 boots just fine. That's why I suggested this as something to try. Actually the DVD drives are IDE devices behind a USB->IDE bridge. Anyway they look like USB to VMS. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:50:48 GMT From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article <3f119ada0706190709td956361yad82192bd5d6e644@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW wrote: > On 6/19/07, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > > DeanW wrote: > > > A customer just took delivery of an RX3600, which has no DVD drive. > > > While they're getting that sorted and obtaining one (one way or > > > another) can anyone tell me if the one in my RX2600 work (for > > > straightforward "plug and play" values of work, so I can get some > > > software onto this thing? > > > > Haven't tried that particular pair for a swap, but (surprisingly) > > some of the Integrity servers used different mechanicals for their disk > > mounts; the kits were unique between the rx1600 and the rx2600, for > > Lovely. > > > Robert mentions USB devices, and a good-quality DVD will usually work > > via MOUNT and such, as will USB key (flash) disks. > > OK, those are my options. I was under the impression that USB memory > or DVD devices were still pretty much hit-or-miss, but if some > reasonable percentage of those are expected to work, I can probably > make this go. One of the big concerns was re-installing VMS after > RAIDing the disks; if I can get it to boot off a USB DVD drive, I > think I'm good. > > The InfoServer is a neat idea, but the prod VMS Alpha is an AS1200 on > the far side of town (and a firewall or two); I'd pull out my last two > handfuls of hair just trying to get it set up, and I'm saving them for > something special. Rather than having customers jump these hoops to save a relatively small amount of money, we actually require that VMS Integrity servers have a DVD drive. But I know the ordering system gets screwed up and lets orders slip through without DVD drives. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 12:39:21 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Itanium hardware Q Message-ID: In article , Stephen Hoffman writes: > > Haven't tried that particular pair for a swap, but (surprisingly) > some of the Integrity servers used different mechanicals for their disk > mounts; the kits were unique between the rx1600 and the rx2600, for > instance. The drive kernel was the same, but the rails and retaining > clips were different. Prior to StorageWorks and its pizza box, we bought SZ12 SCSI storage bricks. I now have a few of these at home filled with drives purchased separately from the same vendor over time. When you know you're not going to be moving them around a lot, and you know you're the only person who will be moving them, sticky tape makes a great disk mount. Just watch out for proper grounding. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 07:40:59 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Message-ID: In article <467745B0.2725F089@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > JF Mezei wrote: >> >> Michael Moroney wrote: >> > VMS is smart enough to figure out that a CD is nonwritable without needing >> > to be told with /NOWRITE. >> >> For a DK device you are right. But with a different type of controller >> that makes a CD appear as a DUAx device, VMS doesn't know it is a CD >> and the mount will fail without /NOWRITE (sometime between 5.5.-2 and >> 7.2 on vax). > > On Alpha, read-only media are successfully detected as such. As far back as VMS 2.x we could mount write-locked disks without /nowrite, but an error would be logged. Since VMS 3.0 this was no longer considered an error. Contrast this behaviour with TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 where a tape would fail to mount with a write ring in place unless /write (don't recall the syntax) was specifically requested. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:24:10 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Message-ID: David J Dachtera writes: >JF Mezei wrote: >> >> Michael Moroney wrote: >> > VMS is smart enough to figure out that a CD is nonwritable without needing >> > to be told with /NOWRITE. >> >> For a DK device you are right. But with a different type of controller >> that makes a CD appear as a DUAx device, VMS doesn't know it is a CD >> and the mount will fail without /NOWRITE (sometime between 5.5.-2 and >> 7.2 on vax). >On Alpha, read-only media are successfully detected as such. VAX as well, at least as of V7.2. I just tried it. This is for a DK based CDROM. I don't have access to any sort of DU controller based writelocked drive to see if JF is right about that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 04:22:21 -0700 From: "george.pagliarulo@hp.com" Subject: Oracle Installation Failure After Installation of VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 Patch Kit Message-ID: <1182252141.285030.255140@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Hello, The following Customer Advisory has been released. I thought it worthwhile to also post it here. George Pagliarulo ECO Release Process OpenVMS Sustaining Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company SUPPORT COMMUNICATION - CUSTOMER ADVISORY Document ID: c01080145 Version: 1 Oracle Installation Failure After Installation of VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 Patch Kit NOTICE: The information in this document, including products and software versions, is current as of the Release Date. This document is subject to change without notice. Release Date: 2007-06-14 Last Updated: 2007-06-18 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- DESCRIPTION The VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit contained several changes to correct BACKUP case handling problems. These changes, although correcting BACKUP, will cause installation of Oracle OpenVMS RDMBS Server products to fail. Installation of Oracle patch updates may also fail. The error manifests itself with a pop-up box from the Oracle GUI OUI (Oracle Universal Installer) indicating that there is an error and instructing the user to select RETRY, ABORT or CANCEL. There is no explanation of the problem listed within the pop-up box and the user can only select ABORT or CANCEL. Selecting RETRY simply loops with the pop-up appearing again. SCOPE This problem affects OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 systems with the VMS82A_BACKUP- V0200 patch kit installed. RESOLUTION Engineering is aware of the problem and is developing a solution that will be distributed in the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0300 patch kit. It is expected that this kit will ship within the next two to three weeks. Until that kit is available, customers who are installing Oracle OpenVMS RDMBS or Oracle patches should not install the VMS82A_BACKUP- V0200 patch kit. If you have installed the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit and are not planning to install Oracle OpenVMS RDMBS or Oracle patches, no action is necessary. Customers who have installed the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit and are experiencing Oracle installation failures can take one of the following actions: o Use PRODUCT UNDO patch to remove the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit. Note that if the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit was not the last patch kit installed, users will need to first UNDO any patch kit installed after the BACKUP patch kit in order to UNDO the BACKUP patch kit. o When installing the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0200 patch kit, if you chose the option to save replaced files as _OLD, you can rename the SYS$COMMON: [SYSLIB]BACKUPSHR.EXE_OLD file to SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]BACKUPSHR.EXE o The BACKUPSHR.EXE image on the OpenVMS installation disk can be copied from [VMS$COMMON.SYSLIB]BACKUPSHR.EXE to the SYS$COMMON: [SYSLIB] directory on the system disk. o If recovery data was saved, users can copy the BACKUPSHR.EXE image from the recovery data set to the SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB] directory. To locate the correct BACKUPSHR.EXE image to restore, execute the command DIRECTORY/DATE SYS$SYSDEVICE:[PCSI$UNDO_*.PCSI$SCOPE_BOOTSTRAP.SYSLIB] BACKUPSHR.EXE Since the BACKUPSHR.EXE image has shipped in the VMS82A_BACKUP-V0100 patch kit, and all V8.2 Alpha UPDATE KITS, there will be several directory results. Copy the BACKUPSHR.EXE image dated 13-JUL-2005 14:55:12.66 to the SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB] directory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Hardware Platforms Affected: Not Applicable Operating Systems Affected: OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 Software Affected: Not Applicable Support Communication Cross Reference ID: IA01080145 =A9Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P. Hewlett-Packard Company shall not be liable for technical or editorial errors or omissions contained herein. The information provided is provided "as is" without warranty of any kind. To the extent permitted by law, neither HP or its affiliates, subcontractors or suppliers will be liable for incidental, special or consequential damages including downtime cost; lost profits; damages relating to the procurement of substitute products or services; or damages for loss of data, or software restoration. The information in this document is subject to change without notice. Hewlett-Packard Company and the names of Hewlett-Packard products referenced herein are trademarks of Hewlett- Packard Company in the United States and other countries. Other product and company names mentioned herein may be trademarks of their respective owners. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:18:26 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > 550 5.7.1 Dynamic IP Addresses See: > http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml? > > which _is_ a helpful message. > > I've just looked up the price of a fixed IP address, and it appears that > I'd have to go to a business account to get one. At 5 times the price, I > think I'll pass at the moment. Again, let me recommend http://www.dynaccess.com/ . I have a dynamic IP address and do EVERYTHING locally except that outgoing email goes through an SMTP relay server provided by this dynamic-DNS provider. (Fortunately, my ISP, 1&1, has all ports open in both directions. I could send email via 1&1, but I would either have to have a fixed, non-obvious from address (which I don't want) or use SMTP authentication (which HP TCPIP doesn't provide).) Alternate gateway: SMTP-RELAY.DYNACCESS.DE He only accepts email from customers whose dynamic IP address has recently updated the corresponding DNS entry. Having said that, the IP address is the ONLY criterion, provided of course that one is not spamming. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:45:48 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5doc46F35ajpjU5@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <4676F6CC.1010705@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> > >> Just look at the > >> drivers here in PA. It's obfvious that the car dealers don't take > >> inteligence into consideration. :-) > > > > You mean the drivers who seem to have mistaken the Interstate Highway > > Number for the speed limit? I think that the ONLY reason drivers are > > not going 276 MPH on the turnpike is that their vehicles are simply not > > capable of it. :-) On I-95 now. . . . > > That little part of I-95 in PA is nothing compared to down south. My > last trip back up from Ft. Gordon I locked the cruise on 85 and stayed > there all the way to Ft. Belvoir. I had to stay in the far right-hand > lane as I was part of the slow traffic!!! I did get real good gas > mileage, though. :-) > > And anyway, driving fast isn't a problem. If they could actually drive. > PA drivers seem to lack a basic understanding of things like red lights, > stop signs, yield signs. And then we have the left turn on red. > > Oh wait, then we have the gal who tried to make a left turn into a one > way street and when she saw she couldn't do that she just drove up over > the curb and went down the sidewalk. (I am not joking!!!) > > bill Not restricted to PA. A VW Beetle tried to go down the underground in Germany recently: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6705323.stm -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 11:58:44 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dpunkF35bbu9U5@mid.individual.net> In article <4676FC32.5020305@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <4676F6CC.1010705@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>> Just look at the >>>>drivers here in PA. It's obfvious that the car dealers don't take >>>>inteligence into consideration. :-) >>> >>>You mean the drivers who seem to have mistaken the Interstate Highway >>>Number for the speed limit? I think that the ONLY reason drivers are >>>not going 276 MPH on the turnpike is that their vehicles are simply not >>>capable of it. :-) On I-95 now. . . . >> >> >> That little part of I-95 in PA is nothing compared to down south. My >> last trip back up from Ft. Gordon I locked the cruise on 85 and stayed >> there all the way to Ft. Belvoir. I had to stay in the far right-hand >> lane as I was part of the slow traffic!!! I did get real good gas >> mileage, though. :-) >> >> And anyway, driving fast isn't a problem. If they could actually drive. >> PA drivers seem to lack a basic understanding of things like red lights, >> stop signs, yield signs. And then we have the left turn on red. >> >> Oh wait, then we have the gal who tried to make a left turn into a one >> way street and when she saw she couldn't do that she just drove up over >> the curb and went down the sidewalk. (I am not joking!!!) >> >> bill >> > > Pennsylvania has no monopoly! I think it was in New York state that I > saw a woman who had missed her exit backing up on the interstate! The > least she could have done was put her children in a taxi; they only have > half her genes. . . . Did you look at the license plates? It was probably a Pennsylvanian. They do that around here all the time. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 11:59:43 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dpupfF35bbu9U6@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <5doc46F35ajpjU5@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <4676F6CC.1010705@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >> >> Just look at the >> >> drivers here in PA. It's obfvious that the car dealers don't take >> >> inteligence into consideration. :-) >> > >> > You mean the drivers who seem to have mistaken the Interstate Highway >> > Number for the speed limit? I think that the ONLY reason drivers are >> > not going 276 MPH on the turnpike is that their vehicles are simply not >> > capable of it. :-) On I-95 now. . . . >> >> That little part of I-95 in PA is nothing compared to down south. My >> last trip back up from Ft. Gordon I locked the cruise on 85 and stayed >> there all the way to Ft. Belvoir. I had to stay in the far right-hand >> lane as I was part of the slow traffic!!! I did get real good gas >> mileage, though. :-) >> >> And anyway, driving fast isn't a problem. If they could actually drive. >> PA drivers seem to lack a basic understanding of things like red lights, >> stop signs, yield signs. And then we have the left turn on red. >> >> Oh wait, then we have the gal who tried to make a left turn into a one >> way street and when she saw she couldn't do that she just drove up over >> the curb and went down the sidewalk. (I am not joking!!!) >> >> bill > > Not restricted to PA. A VW Beetle tried to go down the underground in > Germany recently: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6705323.stm Well, based on what I have been reading in the German press they were probably just following their GPS. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:14:51 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , "John E. Malmberg" writes: >Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> Believe it or not, this is one of the upsides to my idea. It would, >> hopefully, spawn some new businesses specifically to provide "clean" >> email sites. But the reality today is that probably 90% of the current >> MTA servers are run by clueless sys admins. > >It is my understanding that all servers by RFC are required to have a >valid rDNS. > >Several major e-mail providers have tried to enforce this check and >found that they could not because too many real mail servers that they >could not afford to block did not have the basic competency to set an rDNS. > >A strict rDNS check will eliminate zombies from being able to easily >pretend to be real mail servers, and will significantly impact the >ability to send spam. > >Essentially the spam problem is from three points: > >1. Network owners that do not act on complaints. > >2. Network owners that do not configure their mail server identification >correctly according to RFCs. > >3. Network owners that are willingly spam havens. > > >A new mail protocol will not eliminate these problems. > > >Some parts of this discussion are becoming repetitive. I have made >several points, that have not been refuted, mainly just ignored. > >1. The state of the art of automated spam filtering is that over 99% of >spam can be removed with out impacting real messages. > >Just because there are popular spam filters and techniques that do not >do it right does not invalidate that point. It just demonstrates that >those filters are not state of the art. > >I have seen nothing posted today or on any other day that disputes point >number 1. > It's the without impacting real messages part that is being disputed. I'll repeat this again DNSBLs just blacklist IP addresses. If you use them alone to classify mail as spam you risk losing legitimate mail. To most people this is an acceptable trade-off since it reduces the load on their mailhubs if they reject mail from listed addresses and hopefully complaints from the ISPs users will force them to clean up their act. However it is a trade-off - you will lose legitimate mail and you cannot know how much legitimate mail. Hence as far as DNSBLs are concerned figures such as 99% correct without losing legitimate mail is a total lie. Listings on conservative DNSBLs being 99% (or in fact much higher) correct - ie the systems listed really are spam sources , open-relays etc is probably correct but that is a different point. Anti-spam content scanners are generally advertised as about 98% accurate. On a good day they may be more accurate on a bad day less. Unfortunately spammers are constantly refining their strategies in order to make it as bad a day as possible for the content scanners. Hence content scanner vendors are constantly playing catch-up against the latest spammer tricks. Even with automatic or semi-automatic updates from the vendor it still takes time for the vendor to become aware of the new tricks being used and to write rules for their product to cope with them. In the meantime the spammers will be sending as many mails as possible during the window of opportunity. > >2. There is a large misconception and a lot of posts on many forums >claiming high error rates of DNSbls. I have seen none backed up with a >real example from a mainstream used blocking list. In fact I have not >seen an example from an aggressive blocking list known for false > OK try http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/t23820.html in particular the posting at the bottom of the page which refers to the spamhaus SBL blocking of wanadoo mail servers in January. ( Unfortunately since the issue has since been resolved the link to spamhaus in the posting no longer gives details of the issue. ) I hope you are not going to argue that all of wanadoos customers were sending spam. Note. I and others are not arguing that spamhaus was wrong to list wanadoo - they were emitting lots of spam. Just that claiming that such blocks do not result in lost legitimate mail is patently absurd. In a similar case blueyonder mailservers were on the MAPS RBL+ at the end of May 2007 see http://www.lancs.ac.uk/iss/email/mail-blocking.htm >Unfortunately it appears here that perception remains with those that >previously held it, even though no one has produced any evidence to show >a specific real e-mail rejected for being in a mainstream used blocking >list. > > >3. There seems to be a great concern about having a real e-mail >accidentally rejected because of a DNSBL, but no concern about it being >lost from other causes, including end user spam filters, which can not >notify the sender of misclassification. SMTP does not guarantee >delivery or notification of non-delivery. > SMTP was specifically designed to guarantee that mail was either delivered or where that was not possible a non-delivery notification was sent. That was the reason for the setting up of a store-and-forward mail system and the insistence in the RFCs of producing bounce messages. (Sure nothing is 100% guaranteed - your mail could be delivered to the user's mailhub just before it's hard disk crashes and therefore be lost.). Unfortunately the mechanisms were designed when the internet was a smaller friendlier place where forgery of FROM addresses for the sending of malicious content was unknown, where providing an open-relay was a service to the community. Things have had to adapt to the new reality. However as far as possible such adaptation should be in keeping with the original goals of SMTP. Hence, where possible, reject mail during the SMTP dialogue rather than accepting it and bouncing to a possibly forged address. If you accept then find that your anti-spam product thinks it is spam then either tag it and deliver it or quarantine it - don't just delete it. It's then up to the user to decide what they want to do. Sure the user may delete it - but then SMTP never guaranteed that the recipient would read your mail only that it would deliver it. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >The less effective spam filtering is, the higher the odds of e-mail >getting lost for other reasons. That is not being taken into account in >the criticisms of DNSbls use. > > >-John >wb8tyw@qsl.network >Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 12:17:42 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dpvr5F35i1raU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "John E. Malmberg" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> Believe it or not, this is one of the upsides to my idea. It would, >> hopefully, spawn some new businesses specifically to provide "clean" >> email sites. But the reality today is that probably 90% of the current >> MTA servers are run by clueless sys admins. > > It is my understanding that all servers by RFC are required to have a > valid rDNS. IP stacks and applications violate the RFC's every day. RFC does not stand for law. Heck, you might say they're not even suggestions. The name is "Request for Comments"!! :-) > > Several major e-mail providers have tried to enforce this check and > found that they could not because too many real mail servers that they > could not afford to block did not have the basic competency to set an rDNS. I reject servers when there are conflicts between the IP address they come in on, the rDNS mapping and who they say they are with HELO. Stops lot's of SPAM. Has resulted in a few problems. I have told admins at remote sites about their problem and had them fix it. But then, I have also had some who refused to fix it. Their problem, not mine. > > A strict rDNS check will eliminate zombies from being able to easily > pretend to be real mail servers, and will significantly impact the > ability to send spam. > > Essentially the spam problem is from three points: > > 1. Network owners that do not act on complaints. > > 2. Network owners that do not configure their mail server identification > correctly according to RFCs. > > 3. Network owners that are willingly spam havens. I would sum it up much simpler. Stupid managers and incompetent admins. Of course, number two is usually the result of number one. > > > A new mail protocol will not eliminate these problems. I am not proposing a new one. I am proposing an old one. > > > Some parts of this discussion are becoming repetitive. I have made > several points, that have not been refuted, mainly just ignored. > > 1. The state of the art of automated spam filtering is that over 99% of > spam can be removed with out impacting real messages. I don't agree. I think much more real email is lost and the recipient has no way of ever knowing he did not receive the email. > > Just because there are popular spam filters and techniques that do not > do it right does not invalidate that point. It just demonstrates that > those filters are not state of the art. > > I have seen nothing posted today or on any other day that disputes point > number 1. When you don't receive an email, how do you know you didn't receive it? That always reminded me of the places around here that offer rewards to anonymous tipsters. Duh....... > > > 2. There is a large misconception and a lot of posts on many forums > claiming high error rates of DNSbls. I have seen none backed up with a > real example from a mainstream used blocking list. In fact I have not > seen an example from an aggressive blocking list known for false > > Unfortunately it appears here that perception remains with those that > previously held it, even though no one has produced any evidence to show > a specific real e-mail rejected for being in a mainstream used blocking > list. Huh? I just told you yesterday that I had an email form some that was rejected because a major site is RBLed. It wasn't SPAM it was real email. I have a friend locally who send stuff to me at my Army email address because he has a Comcast account and some number of their servers are on various RBL's so he can never be sure his emails will get thru. These are not SPAM, theae are real messages from major players. How can you say that only SPAM gets stopped? > > > 3. There seems to be a great concern about having a real e-mail > accidentally rejected because of a DNSBL, but no concern about it being > lost from other causes, Other causes not related to SPAM have become highly unlikely in todays networks. The net doesn't just loose emails. Servers keep trying for several days before giving up. > including end user spam filters, which can not > notify the sender of misclassification. But that is part of the same problem. Eliminate the need to filter so\ agressively and this problem goes away, too. > SMTP does not guarantee > delivery or notification of non-delivery. That's true, but I owuld bett that the number of emails lost because of having to deal with SPAM is orders of magnitude larger than the number of emails lost through other methods. > > The less effective spam filtering is, the higher the odds of e-mail > getting lost for other reasons. That is not being taken into account in > the criticisms of DNSbls use. Your right. If it weren't for the hundreds of emails lost thru SPAM filtering the five lost by other methods would look really bad. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 12:30:39 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dq0jfF35i1raU2@mid.individual.net> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:50:56 -0700, Bill Gunshannon > wrote: > >>> Why not be your own ISP? I am. My 'ISP' only provides me with a T1 >>> pipe. >>> So I run my own DNS and Mail, in fact, it runs on each node under >>> loadbroker. >>> You could do the same even with DSL. >> How does your running your own ISP fix the email for the guy who wants >> to do business with you but his ISP is BLed? he will end out taking >> his business to someone who runs as shoddy an email system as his own. >> Talk about the mediocre winning the battle. > > That is not what I was responding to, but rather the notion of you being > control of the filtering, rather than the ISP. > >> But, let me throw this out for consideration. You don't have to >> answer publicly, just give it some thought. How many customers >> do you have? Wouldn't it be better for all concerned if you could >> establish a trust relationship such that you could know with 100% >> certainty that all of their emails to you and all of yours to them >> would get thru? If you knew that all of your existing customers >> had a guaranteed pipe into your system wouldn't filtering for new >> potential customers be easier than trying to filter for SPAM? >> Keywords: PLI PL/I PL1 PL/1 PL-I PL-1 PLM SPL "Subset G" >> How much SPAM is likely to match that? > > Yes I have given that some that some thought, and I do have a solution. > With a new website under construction (you may preview it at my site with > /kednos/ tacked on to the URL, I can provide customer login and secure mail > with SOYmail. With MX as the smtp I am only getting 10 to 20 or so spams > a day. While an interesting solution, let's look at it from the other end. How many differnt email accounts in how many different places is the potential customer supposed to have? One for each vendor he deals with? Now we are back to punishing the victim again. A solution needs to be developed that does not change the way the user does things. Needing a separate email account for every vendor is not going to scale very well. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 07:32:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5doc46F35ajpjU5@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > And anyway, driving fast isn't a problem. If they could actually drive. > PA drivers seem to lack a basic understanding of things like red lights, > stop signs, yield signs. And then we have the left turn on red. If your driving through PA one evening on an interstate in a fairly remote section with light traffic and you find the only car for the next mile and a half is alone in the left lane, you can be sure: It's got Maryland tags. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 12:34:03 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dq0prF35i1raU3@mid.individual.net> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > In article <5dnrfgF32rpkjU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>In article , >> "Tom Linden" writes: >>> On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 01:05:55 -0700, P. Sture >>> wrote: >>> >>>> In article <1378kfui13fk00@corp.supernews.com>, >>>> Mark Daniel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> > In article , >>>>> > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >>>>> reply) >>>>> > writes: >>>>> > >>>>> >>In article <1378bo75v2pl6a1@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel >>>>> >> writes: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I >>>>> just >>>>> >>>opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search >>>>> for >>>>> >>>it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a while >>>>> >>>(obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the >>>>> >>>2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". >>>>> >>>That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 >>>>> days! >>>>> >>> This is something like 328 per day!! >>>>> >> >>>>> >>That seems about average. I've resorted to using ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG as >>>>> an >>>>> >>RBL. That gets rid of the lion's share. >>>>> > >>>> >>>> I've just started using that zen.spamhaus.org as well, and the spam on >>>> my VMS system has dropped significantly as a result. >>>> >>>>> > So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start >>>>> > looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical >>>>> > solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or >>>>> > the load it puts on the system? >>>>> > >>>>> > bill >>>>> >>>>> Isn't this a little like suggesting a social solution to the problem of >>>>> crime :-) I'd guess that as long as there is profit to be made there >>>>> will be such activities. >>>>> >>>>> I have a telephone answering machine primarily to screen tele-marketers. >>>>> Best AU$50 I ever spent. But the marketers will continue to call as >>>>> long as people respond to those calls (with interest, dollars, etc.) >>>>> Those who wish to speak to me leave a message (or I pick-up). Not had a >>>>> single message from a marketer or charity asking me to call them back. >>>> >>>> FWIW, I've discontinued my land line and survive with a cell phone at >>>> the moment. That's obviously not an option for everyone, but it's been >>>> effective for me. My snail-mail box is now under attack, but that's >>>> still nowhere near as bad as it was in the UK a decade ago. >>>> >>>>> The solution surely will be technological, perhaps digital signatures >>>>> and associated PKI, to reduce the effectiveness of general SPAMing thus >>>>> reserving the activity for specialised crime rather than the general >>>>> mugging we all endure now. >>>> >>>> My ISP has recently tightened things up, as a couple of months ago the >>>> spam volume dropped. Unfortunately, I believe I lost some valid emails >>>> as well :-( >>>> >>>> About 18 months ago they implemented SMTP authentication, but I don't >>>> think they were enforcing it for quite a while. >>>> >>>> The latest development is that the appear to be enforcing the use of my >>>> registered address in the From: field. Until recently, I could happily >>>> cc a news group posting via email using the munged .nospam sending >>>> address you see above, but now that fails unless I use my real address >>>> (a bit more research needed here to confirm this theory). >>>> >>>> Not what I want to keep my real address munged for news groups, but a >>>> pretty minor inconvenience if it really does stop zombies connected to >>>> my ISP from spewing spam. >>>> >>> Why not be your own ISP? I am. My 'ISP' only provides me with a T1 pipe. >>> So I run my own DNS and Mail, in fact, it runs on each node under >>> loadbroker. >>> You could do the same even with DSL. >> >>How does your running your own ISP fix the email for the guy who wants >>to do business with you but his ISP is BLed? he will end out taking >>his business to someone who runs as shoddy an email system as his own. >>Talk about the mediocre winning the battle. >> >>But, let me throw this out for consideration. You don't have to >>answer publicly, just give it some thought. How many customers >>do you have? Wouldn't it be better for all concerned if you could >>establish a trust relationship such that you could know with 100% >>certainty that all of their emails to you and all of yours to them >>would get thru? If you knew that all of your existing customers >>had a guaranteed pipe into your system wouldn't filtering for new >>potential customers be easier than trying to filter for SPAM? >>Keywords: PLI PL/I PL1 PL/1 PL-I PL-1 PLM SPL "Subset G" >>How much SPAM is likely to match that? >> > > What's that a keyword for every customer ? That's really going to scale. How do you draw that conclusion? Tom deals in PLI Compilers. Every customer is going to be looking for the stuff in the same class of keywords. Now, if you're Sears or Kmart this method may not work well, but then, email isn't likely to be their primary method of communicating with customers, either. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:55:44 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5dpvr5F35i1raU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > "John E. Malmberg" writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>> Believe it or not, this is one of the upsides to my idea. It would, >>> hopefully, spawn some new businesses specifically to provide "clean" >>> email sites. But the reality today is that probably 90% of the current >>> MTA servers are run by clueless sys admins. >> >> It is my understanding that all servers by RFC are required to have a >> valid rDNS. > >IP stacks and applications violate the RFC's every day. RFC does not >stand for law. Heck, you might say they're not even suggestions. >The name is "Request for Comments"!! :-) > Many of the RFCs are also STDs (ie STANDARDS) see http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/std/std-index.html David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >> >> Several major e-mail providers have tried to enforce this check and >> found that they could not because too many real mail servers that they >> could not afford to block did not have the basic competency to set an rDNS. > >I reject servers when there are conflicts between the IP address they >come in on, the rDNS mapping and who they say they are with HELO. Stops >lot's of SPAM. Has resulted in a few problems. I have told admins at >remote sites about their problem and had them fix it. But then, I have >also had some who refused to fix it. Their problem, not mine. > >> >> A strict rDNS check will eliminate zombies from being able to easily >> pretend to be real mail servers, and will significantly impact the >> ability to send spam. >> >> Essentially the spam problem is from three points: >> >> 1. Network owners that do not act on complaints. >> >> 2. Network owners that do not configure their mail server identification >> correctly according to RFCs. >> >> 3. Network owners that are willingly spam havens. > >I would sum it up much simpler. Stupid managers and incompetent admins. >Of course, number two is usually the result of number one. > >> >> >> A new mail protocol will not eliminate these problems. > >I am not proposing a new one. I am proposing an old one. > >> >> >> Some parts of this discussion are becoming repetitive. I have made >> several points, that have not been refuted, mainly just ignored. >> >> 1. The state of the art of automated spam filtering is that over 99% of >> spam can be removed with out impacting real messages. > >I don't agree. I think much more real email is lost and the recipient >has no way of ever knowing he did not receive the email. > >> >> Just because there are popular spam filters and techniques that do not >> do it right does not invalidate that point. It just demonstrates that >> those filters are not state of the art. >> >> I have seen nothing posted today or on any other day that disputes point >> number 1. > >When you don't receive an email, how do you know you didn't receive it? >That always reminded me of the places around here that offer rewards to >anonymous tipsters. Duh....... > >> >> >> 2. There is a large misconception and a lot of posts on many forums >> claiming high error rates of DNSbls. I have seen none backed up with a >> real example from a mainstream used blocking list. In fact I have not >> seen an example from an aggressive blocking list known for false >> >> Unfortunately it appears here that perception remains with those that >> previously held it, even though no one has produced any evidence to show >> a specific real e-mail rejected for being in a mainstream used blocking >> list. > >Huh? I just told you yesterday that I had an email form some that was >rejected because a major site is RBLed. It wasn't SPAM it was real >email. I have a friend locally who send stuff to me at my Army email >address because he has a Comcast account and some number of their >servers are on various RBL's so he can never be sure his emails will >get thru. These are not SPAM, theae are real messages from major players. >How can you say that only SPAM gets stopped? > >> >> >> 3. There seems to be a great concern about having a real e-mail >> accidentally rejected because of a DNSBL, but no concern about it being >> lost from other causes, > >Other causes not related to SPAM have become highly unlikely in todays >networks. The net doesn't just loose emails. Servers keep trying for >several days before giving up. > >> including end user spam filters, which can not >> notify the sender of misclassification. > >But that is part of the same problem. Eliminate the need to filter so\ >agressively and this problem goes away, too. > >> SMTP does not guarantee >> delivery or notification of non-delivery. > >That's true, but I owuld bett that the number of emails lost because of >having to deal with SPAM is orders of magnitude larger than the number >of emails lost through other methods. > >> >> The less effective spam filtering is, the higher the odds of e-mail >> getting lost for other reasons. That is not being taken into account in >> the criticisms of DNSbls use. > >Your right. If it weren't for the hundreds of emails lost thru SPAM >filtering the five lost by other methods would look really bad. :-) > >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:54:25 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article , "P. > Sture" writes: > > > 550 5.7.1 Dynamic IP Addresses See: > > http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml? > > > > which _is_ a helpful message. > > > > I've just looked up the price of a fixed IP address, and it appears that > > I'd have to go to a business account to get one. At 5 times the price, I > > think I'll pass at the moment. > > Again, let me recommend http://www.dynaccess.com/ . I have a dynamic IP > address and do EVERYTHING locally except that outgoing email goes > through an SMTP relay server provided by this dynamic-DNS provider. > (Fortunately, my ISP, 1&1, has all ports open in both directions. I > could send email via 1&1, but I would either have to have a fixed, > non-obvious from address (which I don't want) or use SMTP authentication > (which HP TCPIP doesn't provide).) > > Alternate gateway: SMTP-RELAY.DYNACCESS.DE > > He only accepts email from customers whose dynamic IP address has > recently updated the corresponding DNS entry. Having said that, the IP > address is the ONLY criterion, provided of course that one is not > spamming. Thanks for the reminder, but I have an existing .ch address, and it appears that even the Business C rate won't let me do that (although it appears able to do .de, .com, .net etc) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:04:43 -0400 From: sol gongola Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/18/07 10:31, sol gongola wrote: >> Ron Johnson wrote: >>> On 06/17/07 03:05, P. Sture wrote: >>> [snip] >>>> My ISP has recently tightened things up, as a couple of months ago the >>>> spam volume dropped. Unfortunately, I believe I lost some valid emails >>>> as well :-( >>> You mean they just *delete* emails they think are spam???? My ISP at >>> least sends them to the "Spam" folder where I can see them with web >>> mail. >>> >>> But I guess people complaines, and now there is a configuration option >>> of putting "-- Spam --" in the subject line of emails they score as >>> spam. I now get all emails, and filter them into my own Spam folder >>> where I can quick-scan for false-negatives. >>> >> So, you haven't reduced your unwanted spam traffic on your network >> and you are still getting all the spam. Maybe it easier to to deal >> with them when they are all in the same folder. > > That's the idea. I eyeball for false-spams then delete all the mails. > Very fast and simple. > But you aren't gaining very much. Having to deal with the spam itself is just part of the problem. You can handle much of it by configuring a mail client (outloook, thunderbird) for junk mail filtering. An other significant problem is the amount of bandwidth being taken up by spam entering your network. You still have that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:29:08 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5dq0prF35i1raU3@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> In article <5dnrfgF32rpkjU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>In article , >>> "Tom Linden" writes: >>>> On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 01:05:55 -0700, P. Sture >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> In article <1378kfui13fk00@corp.supernews.com>, >>>>> Mark Daniel wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>> > In article , >>>>>> > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >>>>>> reply) >>>>>> > writes: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>In article <1378bo75v2pl6a1@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel >>>>>> >> writes: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I >>>>>> just >>>>>> >>>opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search >>>>>> for >>>>>> >>>it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a while >>>>>> >>>(obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the >>>>>> >>>2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". >>>>>> >>>That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 >>>>>> days! >>>>>> >>> This is something like 328 per day!! >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>That seems about average. I've resorted to using ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG as >>>>>> an >>>>>> >>RBL. That gets rid of the lion's share. >>>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> I've just started using that zen.spamhaus.org as well, and the spam on >>>>> my VMS system has dropped significantly as a result. >>>>> >>>>>> > So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start >>>>>> > looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical >>>>>> > solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or >>>>>> > the load it puts on the system? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > bill >>>>>> >>>>>> Isn't this a little like suggesting a social solution to the problem of >>>>>> crime :-) I'd guess that as long as there is profit to be made there >>>>>> will be such activities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a telephone answering machine primarily to screen tele-marketers. >>>>>> Best AU$50 I ever spent. But the marketers will continue to call as >>>>>> long as people respond to those calls (with interest, dollars, etc.) >>>>>> Those who wish to speak to me leave a message (or I pick-up). Not had a >>>>>> single message from a marketer or charity asking me to call them back. >>>>> >>>>> FWIW, I've discontinued my land line and survive with a cell phone at >>>>> the moment. That's obviously not an option for everyone, but it's been >>>>> effective for me. My snail-mail box is now under attack, but that's >>>>> still nowhere near as bad as it was in the UK a decade ago. >>>>> >>>>>> The solution surely will be technological, perhaps digital signatures >>>>>> and associated PKI, to reduce the effectiveness of general SPAMing thus >>>>>> reserving the activity for specialised crime rather than the general >>>>>> mugging we all endure now. >>>>> >>>>> My ISP has recently tightened things up, as a couple of months ago the >>>>> spam volume dropped. Unfortunately, I believe I lost some valid emails >>>>> as well :-( >>>>> >>>>> About 18 months ago they implemented SMTP authentication, but I don't >>>>> think they were enforcing it for quite a while. >>>>> >>>>> The latest development is that the appear to be enforcing the use of my >>>>> registered address in the From: field. Until recently, I could happily >>>>> cc a news group posting via email using the munged .nospam sending >>>>> address you see above, but now that fails unless I use my real address >>>>> (a bit more research needed here to confirm this theory). >>>>> >>>>> Not what I want to keep my real address munged for news groups, but a >>>>> pretty minor inconvenience if it really does stop zombies connected to >>>>> my ISP from spewing spam. >>>>> >>>> Why not be your own ISP? I am. My 'ISP' only provides me with a T1 pipe. >>>> So I run my own DNS and Mail, in fact, it runs on each node under >>>> loadbroker. >>>> You could do the same even with DSL. >>> >>>How does your running your own ISP fix the email for the guy who wants >>>to do business with you but his ISP is BLed? he will end out taking >>>his business to someone who runs as shoddy an email system as his own. >>>Talk about the mediocre winning the battle. >>> >>>But, let me throw this out for consideration. You don't have to >>>answer publicly, just give it some thought. How many customers >>>do you have? Wouldn't it be better for all concerned if you could >>>establish a trust relationship such that you could know with 100% >>>certainty that all of their emails to you and all of yours to them >>>would get thru? If you knew that all of your existing customers >>>had a guaranteed pipe into your system wouldn't filtering for new >>>potential customers be easier than trying to filter for SPAM? >>>Keywords: PLI PL/I PL1 PL/1 PL-I PL-1 PLM SPL "Subset G" >>>How much SPAM is likely to match that? >>> >> >> What's that a keyword for every customer ? That's really going to scale. > >How do you draw that conclusion? Tom deals in PLI Compilers. Every >customer is going to be looking for the stuff in the same class of >keywords. Now, if you're Sears or Kmart this method may not work well, >but then, email isn't likely to be their primary method of communicating >with customers, either. > I'm sure that Tom's company receives tons of legitimate mail which doesn't mention PL1 (or any variant) by name. I have this problem at the University where we have certain well known accounts which are contacted by new and prospective students from all over the world to ask about the University, Degree courses etc Since they are one off inquiries we can't , as users can with normal email accounts, whitelist addresses communicated with on a regular basis to reduce false positives. On the otherhand these are well known addresses so they get lots of spam. Also the standard spam rules for obfuscation etc are often falsely triggered by course codes (often mistyped) or abbreviated course names or qualifications. But we definitely don't want to put off prospective students by not responding to their queries. The answer is to try to identify keywords and phrases expected for these types of enquiries in messages directed to these accounts and to use those to offset the anti-spam products spam scoring. It takes a lot of effort to get anything reasonable. People misuse english - especially if it isn't their first language. You can't use certain words because they mean other things in other circumstances which appear in well known spam. These accounts now let through much more spam than normal accounts but still tag the majority correctly ie the balance is shifted to false negatives rather than false positives eg Fake degree spam may well get through. I definitely don't think detecting non SPAM by looking for positive phrases would work for normal email accounts which get all sorts of mail. It is much much simpler to look for the tricks used by spammers. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:11:04 -0400 From: sol gongola Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5uRdi.12$P41.1@newsfe12.lga> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <5dq0prF35i1raU3@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article , >> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >>> In article <5dnrfgF32rpkjU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> In article , >>>> "Tom Linden" writes: >>>>> On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 01:05:55 -0700, P. Sture >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In article <1378kfui13fk00@corp.supernews.com>, >>>>>> Mark Daniel wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>>>> In article , >>>>>>>> helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >>>>>>> reply) >>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In article <1378bo75v2pl6a1@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel >>>>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I >>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a while >>>>>>>>>> (obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the >>>>>>>>>> 2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". >>>>>>>>>> That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 >>>>>>> days! >>>>>>>>>> This is something like 328 per day!! >>>>>>>>> That seems about average. I've resorted to using ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG as >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> RBL. That gets rid of the lion's share. >>>>>> I've just started using that zen.spamhaus.org as well, and the spam on >>>>>> my VMS system has dropped significantly as a result. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start >>>>>>>> looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical >>>>>>>> solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or >>>>>>>> the load it puts on the system? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> bill >>>>>>> Isn't this a little like suggesting a social solution to the problem of >>>>>>> crime :-) I'd guess that as long as there is profit to be made there >>>>>>> will be such activities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a telephone answering machine primarily to screen tele-marketers. >>>>>>> Best AU$50 I ever spent. But the marketers will continue to call as >>>>>>> long as people respond to those calls (with interest, dollars, etc.) >>>>>>> Those who wish to speak to me leave a message (or I pick-up). Not had a >>>>>>> single message from a marketer or charity asking me to call them back. >>>>>> FWIW, I've discontinued my land line and survive with a cell phone at >>>>>> the moment. That's obviously not an option for everyone, but it's been >>>>>> effective for me. My snail-mail box is now under attack, but that's >>>>>> still nowhere near as bad as it was in the UK a decade ago. >>>>>> >>>>>>> The solution surely will be technological, perhaps digital signatures >>>>>>> and associated PKI, to reduce the effectiveness of general SPAMing thus >>>>>>> reserving the activity for specialised crime rather than the general >>>>>>> mugging we all endure now. >>>>>> My ISP has recently tightened things up, as a couple of months ago the >>>>>> spam volume dropped. Unfortunately, I believe I lost some valid emails >>>>>> as well :-( >>>>>> >>>>>> About 18 months ago they implemented SMTP authentication, but I don't >>>>>> think they were enforcing it for quite a while. >>>>>> >>>>>> The latest development is that the appear to be enforcing the use of my >>>>>> registered address in the From: field. Until recently, I could happily >>>>>> cc a news group posting via email using the munged .nospam sending >>>>>> address you see above, but now that fails unless I use my real address >>>>>> (a bit more research needed here to confirm this theory). >>>>>> >>>>>> Not what I want to keep my real address munged for news groups, but a >>>>>> pretty minor inconvenience if it really does stop zombies connected to >>>>>> my ISP from spewing spam. >>>>>> >>>>> Why not be your own ISP? I am. My 'ISP' only provides me with a T1 pipe. >>>>> So I run my own DNS and Mail, in fact, it runs on each node under >>>>> loadbroker. >>>>> You could do the same even with DSL. >>>> How does your running your own ISP fix the email for the guy who wants >>>> to do business with you but his ISP is BLed? he will end out taking >>>> his business to someone who runs as shoddy an email system as his own. >>>> Talk about the mediocre winning the battle. >>>> >>>> But, let me throw this out for consideration. You don't have to >>>> answer publicly, just give it some thought. How many customers >>>> do you have? Wouldn't it be better for all concerned if you could >>>> establish a trust relationship such that you could know with 100% >>>> certainty that all of their emails to you and all of yours to them >>>> would get thru? If you knew that all of your existing customers >>>> had a guaranteed pipe into your system wouldn't filtering for new >>>> potential customers be easier than trying to filter for SPAM? >>>> Keywords: PLI PL/I PL1 PL/1 PL-I PL-1 PLM SPL "Subset G" >>>> How much SPAM is likely to match that? >>>> >>> What's that a keyword for every customer ? That's really going to scale. >> How do you draw that conclusion? Tom deals in PLI Compilers. Every >> customer is going to be looking for the stuff in the same class of >> keywords. Now, if you're Sears or Kmart this method may not work well, >> but then, email isn't likely to be their primary method of communicating >> with customers, either. >> > I'm sure that Tom's company receives tons of legitimate mail which doesn't > mention PL1 (or any variant) by name. > > I have this problem at the University where we have certain well known accounts > which are contacted by new and prospective students from all over the world > to ask about the University, Degree courses etc > Since they are one off inquiries we can't , as users can with normal email > accounts, whitelist addresses communicated with on a regular basis to reduce > false positives. On the otherhand these are well known addresses so they get > lots of spam. Also the standard spam rules for obfuscation etc are often > falsely triggered by course codes (often mistyped) or abbreviated course names > or qualifications. > But we definitely don't want to put off prospective students by not responding > to their queries. > > The answer is to try to identify keywords and phrases expected for these types > of enquiries in messages directed to these accounts and to use those to offset > the anti-spam products spam scoring. It takes a lot of effort to get anything > reasonable. People misuse english - especially if it isn't their first > language. You can't use certain words because they mean other things in other > circumstances which appear in well known spam. These accounts now let through > much more spam than normal accounts but still tag the majority correctly ie > the balance is shifted to false negatives rather than false positives eg > Fake degree spam may well get through. > > I definitely don't think detecting non SPAM by looking for positive phrases > would work for normal email accounts which get all sorts of mail. It is much > much simpler to look for the tricks used by spammers. > > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University Rather than relying on standard email, wouldn't it be better, in your case to have a web based form to deliver email directly into your system. You can allow for attachments and for anti spam mesaures such as a captcha. Heck. at least they won't get the email address wrong when they send in the application. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 11:57:24 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMASg email servers (was: Message-ID: <5dpul3F35bbu9U4@mid.individual.net> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <5doagvF35ajpjU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> Ummm.... I have received over 20 Reject: messages today all claiming >> to be from the mail server "cs.uofs.edu". My server didn't generate >> any of them. > > The administrator of cs.uofs.edu should configure it to reject forged > messages. It does. One got through out of what appears to be several hundred over the past week. That's better than most SPAM filtering. But that doesn't change the fact that people here keep recommending that people shold actually read these meaningless messages and even follow their instructions. These messages may have been useful at one time, but then, so was email in general. I miss those days. If this is progress, give me back my horse and buggy. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:21:01 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Message-ID: <6b24d$467775db$cef8887a$22200@TEKSAVVY.COM> Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: >>$DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$FTP_WINDSIZ 4096 > > Remove the "I". That is TCPIP$FTP_WNDSIZ > Damned you ! You found a bug/typo I've had in my startup procedure for a very very long time. :-) :-) :-) (thanks for finding it!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:06:22 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Message-ID: In article <07061823453382_202003EE@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: "P. Sture" > > > [...] Alphas > > are typically not very good at auto-negotiating network speeds. > > > > I came across an example of this recently, where a NIC was set at the > > console to "Fast". The resulting network speed appeared to be OK for SSH > > sessions, but FTP was chugging along at modem speeds. > > And they're particularly bad at auto-negotiating network speeds when > the system manager manually sets the network speed instead of letting > them auto-negotiate. So once set, how does one clear the console value? > I've never had any trouble with auto-negotiation, but that's probably > due to my state-of-the-art hardware (AlpSta 200 4/233, PWS 500a, XP1000; > cheapest, stupidest network swtiches I could find; and so on). > Ah. Since I first got my PWS 600au I've changed the router (twice) and swapped the hub out for a switch. I'll try again. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:04:59 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Message-ID: <07061908045909_202003EE@antinode.org> From: "P. Sture" > So once set, how does one clear the console value? There may be some dependence on SRM details, but, for example, on an XP1000 (with its latest-but-obsolete firmware), "set eXXX_mode" provides a list of "valid selections" between "bad value: complaints, one of which is "Auto-Negotiate". ("eXXX" in my case includes device names like "eia0" ($2.50) and "ewa0" (built-in).) So, you don't _clear_ it, you set it to something else. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:47:21 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Question about TCPIP$ftp - copy taking a long time Message-ID: In article <07061908045909_202003EE@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: "P. Sture" > > > So once set, how does one clear the console value? > > There may be some dependence on SRM details, but, for example, on an > XP1000 (with its latest-but-obsolete firmware), "set eXXX_mode" provides > a list of "valid selections" between "bad value: complaints, one of > which is "Auto-Negotiate". ("eXXX" in my case includes device names > like "eia0" ($2.50) and "ewa0" (built-in).) So, you don't _clear_ it, > you set it to something else. > Thanks. I'll have a look at the next reboot. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:36:47 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" wrote: > In article <5dhn45F34vdo8U2@mid.individual.net>, > Michael Unger wrote: > > > On 2007-06-15 22:12, "Stephen Hoffman" wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > > > > Replacing the entire OpenVMS kernel was discussed, and prototyped. > > > (There's an engineering study that was published, and that is still > > > around. qv: A Model and Prototype of VMS Using the Mach 3.0 Kernel, the > > > filename is usually usenix_vms-on-mach.ps.) > > > > A lot of the references Google Search lists are unavailable now -- I've > > finally found that document at Nettverksgruppa [1]. > > > > > [...] > > > > VMSONE.COM [2] which is listed as well on Google seems to be down currently. > > > > Michael > > > > [1] > > [2] > > Thanks Michael. > > For those who can't read .PS files, I've put it up as a .PDF (188KB) at > > Apologies to those who have already downloaded this, as the graphic on page 4 is messed up. Thanks to Michael Unger for pointing this out, and providing a clean version, which is now available at the above URL. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:26:30 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:36:47 -0700, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" wrote: > >> In article <5dhn45F34vdo8U2@mid.individual.net>, >> Michael Unger wrote: >> >> > On 2007-06-15 22:12, "Stephen Hoffman" wrote: >> > >> > > [...] >> > > >> > > Replacing the entire OpenVMS kernel was discussed, and >> prototyped. >> > > (There's an engineering study that was published, and that is still >> > > around. qv: A Model and Prototype of VMS Using the Mach 3.0 >> Kernel, the >> > > filename is usually usenix_vms-on-mach.ps.) >> > >> > A lot of the references Google Search lists are unavailable now -- >> I've >> > finally found that document at Nettverksgruppa [1]. >> > >> > > [...] >> > >> > VMSONE.COM [2] which is listed as well on Google seems to be down >> currently. >> > >> > Michael >> > >> > [1] >> > [2] >> >> Thanks Michael. >> >> For those who can't read .PS files, I've put it up as a .PDF (188KB) at >> >> I didn't see a date on this, but judging by the refs it would appear to be ca. 1991. So what happened to this effort? > > Apologies to those who have already downloaded this, as the graphic on > page 4 is messed up. > > Thanks to Michael Unger for pointing this out, and providing a clean > version, which is now available at the above URL. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:02:43 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > I didn't see a date on this, but judging by the refs it would appear to be > ca. 1991. > > So what happened to this effort? The paper was published. The Mach changes that were prototyped for OpenVMS and described in the paper were not deployed into production. Interestingly, Apple did deploy a Mach kernel port for its Mac OS X product, re-hosting the existing Mac OS 9 platform onto the Mach kernel. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 15:08:46 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: <5dq9ruF33f287U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Stephen Hoffman writes: > Tom Linden wrote: > >> I didn't see a date on this, but judging by the refs it would appear to be >> ca. 1991. >> >> So what happened to this effort? > > The paper was published. > > The Mach changes that were prototyped for OpenVMS and described in the > paper were not deployed into production. > > Interestingly, Apple did deploy a Mach kernel port for its Mac OS X > product, re-hosting the existing Mac OS 9 platform onto the Mach kernel. > I'll bet the guys doing FreeVMS never heard of this. Might have had an effect on where they chose to start from. Hmmm.... Hey Tom, have you got a PLI compiler that can generate code suitable for Mach? We could start another project to clone VMS. All written in PLI and running on top of Mach. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:09:21 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: > Interestingly, Apple did deploy a Mach kernel port for its Mac OS X > product, re-hosting the existing Mac OS 9 platform onto the Mach kernel. As my wording is likely going to be confusing here: the result was a Mach-flavored kernel, with FreeBSD and MkLinux and other flavors also present in Mac OS X. Were Mach to be deployed under OpenVMS, it too would have seen changes from "classic Mach". For particular details on the xnu kernel of Mac OS X, do see the available Darwin-related materials. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:53:39 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: <5dqanuF36332jU1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-06-19 16:26, "Tom Linden" wrote: > I didn't see a date on this, but judging by the refs it would appear to be > ca. 1991. >From the contents of the PostScript file: | %!PS-Adobe-2.1 | %%Creator: DECwrite T2.0 EFT | %%+Copyright (c) 1990 DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION. | %%+All Rights Reserved. > So what happened to this effort? That has to be answered by others ... Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:32:14 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:08:46 -0700, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Stephen Hoffman writes: >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> I didn't see a date on this, but judging by the refs it would appear >>> to be >>> ca. 1991. >>> >>> So what happened to this effort? >> >> The paper was published. >> >> The Mach changes that were prototyped for OpenVMS and described in the >> paper were not deployed into production. >> >> Interestingly, Apple did deploy a Mach kernel port for its Mac OS X >> product, re-hosting the existing Mac OS 9 platform onto the Mach kernel. >> > > I'll bet the guys doing FreeVMS never heard of this. Might have had an > effect on where they chose to start from. > > Hmmm.... Hey Tom, have you got a PLI compiler that can generate code > suitable for Mach? We could start another project to clone VMS. All > written in PLI and running on top of Mach. :-) > I can do much better than that. Gene Amdahl who is a friend transferred his rights in the Keykos (google) operating system to me some 10 years ago. This is a lot more sophistacted than Mach, employing message passing (keys which convey authority) rather than traditional call-return mechanisms, and it is all written in PL/I. This was work initiated by Tymshare in the late 70's under the name Gnosis. It is a highly secure system (The Air Force once bought a copy for 370 architecture.) There are mechanisms for resolving the Mutually Suspicious user problem. Documentation at UPenn. The L4 Microkernel developed by Jochen Liedtke at Dresden (he died a few years ago) was based on similar design. > bill > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:44:42 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:53:39 -0700, Michael Unger wrote: > On 2007-06-19 16:26, "Tom Linden" wrote: > >> I didn't see a date on this, but judging by the refs it would appear to >> be >> ca. 1991. > >> From the contents of the PostScript file: > > | %!PS-Adobe-2.1 > | %%Creator: DECwrite T2.0 EFT > | %%+Copyright (c) 1990 DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION. > | %%+All Rights Reserved. That is the date for DECwrite. There were three references from 1991. > >> So what happened to this effort? > > That has to be answered by others ... > > Michael > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:49:15 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: In article <5dq9ruF33f287U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > Stephen Hoffman writes: >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> I didn't see a date on this, but judging by the refs it would appear to be >>> ca. 1991. >>> >>> So what happened to this effort? >> >> The paper was published. >> >> The Mach changes that were prototyped for OpenVMS and described in the >> paper were not deployed into production. >> >> Interestingly, Apple did deploy a Mach kernel port for its Mac OS X >> product, re-hosting the existing Mac OS 9 platform onto the Mach kernel. >> > >I'll bet the guys doing FreeVMS never heard of this. Might have had an >effect on where they chose to start from. > I seem to remember years ago when there was first discussions about creating a freeVMS there was talk about building it on a Mach kernel. It looks like FreeVMS is not doing too badly see http://www.systella.fr/~bertrand/FreeVMS/IndexGB.html David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Hmmm.... Hey Tom, have you got a PLI compiler that can generate code >suitable for Mach? We could start another project to clone VMS. All >written in PLI and running on top of Mach. :-) > >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:19:12 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Trade 8.3 IA64 kit for 8.3 Alpha Message-ID: Have one too many Itanium kits and one too few Alpha for 8.3 Anybody with opposite problem? Tom -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2007 11:39:51 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: UCX Printer connection Via LPD Message-ID: <5dptk7F35bbu9U1@mid.individual.net> In article <467749CA.1904B16B@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > Chris wrote: >> >> We have a situation where it seems that the LPD prints going to the >> printer are not RFC1179 compliant. Instead of the traditional Control >> file / Data file (or Data file / control file) we are getting two data >> file requests. >> >> One is dfA the other is dfB and no control file. >> >> This is DEC TCP Services. >> >> Anyone have any ideas to force this to follow RFC1179, or is just some >> other issue? > > Huh? Unless it has changed, the exhibited behavior is correct: first the print > data is sent, then the control data telling how to print it is sent. The > receiver must be prepared to buffer the entire print job so that when the > control data is received, the job can be printed as directed. > > I don't keep up with it, but I've not been previously apprised of any changes to > it, either here or in the Solaris/x86 or AIX newsgroups. > > Up until now, there was, AFAIK, never an RFC to DEFINE the lp protocol, only an > RFC that DOCUMENTS existing behavior based on observation and some reverse > engineering. > > If it weren't bed time, I'd look it up myself. A little more info might help. What is the decice on the receiving end? An actual printer or a spooling device or another computer with the printer hooked to it? I can tell you that if VMS sticks strictly to the spec and the receiving end is a Linux box there is a chance it won't work. I don't know the whole story, but apparently they didn't stick to the spec (no surprise there) and there are versions that do that will not work with Linux. Or, in other words, it may not be VMS's fault. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:51:16 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: [OT] GPS and driving was: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: Change of subject to reflect content. In article <5dpupfF35bbu9U6@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" writes: > > In article <5doc46F35ajpjU5@mid.individual.net>, > > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > > >> In article <4676F6CC.1010705@comcast.net>, > >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Just look at the > >> >> drivers here in PA. It's obfvious that the car dealers don't take > >> >> inteligence into consideration. :-) > >> > > >> > You mean the drivers who seem to have mistaken the Interstate Highway > >> > Number for the speed limit? I think that the ONLY reason drivers are > >> > not going 276 MPH on the turnpike is that their vehicles are simply not > >> > capable of it. :-) On I-95 now. . . . > >> > >> That little part of I-95 in PA is nothing compared to down south. My > >> last trip back up from Ft. Gordon I locked the cruise on 85 and stayed > >> there all the way to Ft. Belvoir. I had to stay in the far right-hand > >> lane as I was part of the slow traffic!!! I did get real good gas > >> mileage, though. :-) > >> > >> And anyway, driving fast isn't a problem. If they could actually drive. > >> PA drivers seem to lack a basic understanding of things like red lights, > >> stop signs, yield signs. And then we have the left turn on red. > >> > >> Oh wait, then we have the gal who tried to make a left turn into a one > >> way street and when she saw she couldn't do that she just drove up over > >> the curb and went down the sidewalk. (I am not joking!!!) > >> > >> bill > > > > Not restricted to PA. A VW Beetle tried to go down the underground in > > Germany recently: > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6705323.stm > > Well, based on what I have been reading in the German press they were > probably just following their GPS. :-) > Did you see this one? If you follow the links, apparently driving rain contributed, but it started with a GPS mis-direction. From Risks Digest: http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/24.67.html#subj9 "Another sat-nav accident: car destroyed, driver escapes" -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.332 ************************