INFO-VAX Fri, 08 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 311 Contents: Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Re: Comparative patch installation (was Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt) Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Re: HOWTO: Ignoring wildly OT threads Perl on VMS 8.3 w osu web server Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: Questions about changing backup devices/methods Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Re: SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL and ERRLOG.SYS Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time RE: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: using RBLs interactively Re: We can now sell & rent RX2660 with VMS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 17:38:08 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... Message-ID: <9b5a2$46687af5$cef8887a$29024@TEKSAVVY.COM> Galen wrote: > No effect (already had an empty TCPIP$NETWORK.DAT anyway) I recall having a problem very similar to yours some years ago, but can't seem to find my posts on this subject. If I were you, I would try $SET WATCH FILE/CLASS=all and then issue the TCPIP command you know will generate the error. Just prior to the error, you will see which file TCPIP is trying to access and this may give you a clue. once done, $SET WATCH FILE /CLASS=NONE Also make sure that the logicals TCPIP$CONFIGURATION, TCPIP$HOST TCPIP$NETWORK etc are all defined to point to an existing file. (or not defined at all. Also note that if you are to delete the files, they are clusterwide files and you will also lose config informtion for other nodes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 19:39:55 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... Message-ID: <4668974B.6010306@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Galen wrote: > >> No effect (already had an empty TCPIP$NETWORK.DAT anyway) > > > > I recall having a problem very similar to yours some years ago, but > can't seem to find my posts on this subject. > > If I were you, I would try > $SET WATCH FILE/CLASS=all > > and then issue the TCPIP command you know will generate the error. > Just prior to the error, you will see which file TCPIP is trying to > access and this may give you a clue. > > once done, $SET WATCH FILE /CLASS=NONE > > > Also make sure that the logicals TCPIP$CONFIGURATION, TCPIP$HOST > TCPIP$NETWORK etc are all defined to point to an existing file. (or not > defined at all. > > > Also note that if you are to delete the files, they are clusterwide > files and you will also lose config informtion for other nodes. JF, I think that, when recommending SET WATCH, you should mention that it can crash a system. I've never had it happen but, unless it has been fixed since I last used it, it CAN crash a system. It's also undocumented and unsupported. It can be a valuable tool but you want to be very careful when and where you use it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:56:50 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... Message-ID: <46689B42.1256A6E4@spam.comcast.net> Galen wrote: > > We're running TCP/IP V5.3 (no TCP/IP ecos) ... There's your problem right there - UCX *ALWAYS* has ECOs! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 19:16:05 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Message-ID: In article , norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > Actually, this becomes moot, because after the UPDATE patch is release, it > starts to become a prerequisite for new patches. > Thus, even if one has installed all ECO's in the latest UPDATE ECO, one > must perforce install the UPDATE ECO in order to > have later-released ECO's install successfully. OK, but by knowing what new stuff is in it, I can decide if I want to install it soon, or perhaps later (maybe even just before the ECO after it). > I once asked if the UPDATE ECO could check for the presence of installed > ECO contained within and just either install the ones > not yet present or (since if some we not there it may well be because the > are unwanted/unneeded--non-category-one ECO's > somehow get into these UPDATE ECO's), provide a switch to just mark the > database so later ECO's don't fail; IOW trust the > system manager--what a concept. The comment was that this was too hard to > do. Are you saying that one ECO is a TECHNICAL requirement for installing future ones? I've certainly skipped some updates. Of course, although they are cumulative, if the stuff is already installed, it doesn't get installed again. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:17:52 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Message-ID: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote on 06/07/2007 03:16:05 PM: > In article > , > norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > > > Actually, this becomes moot, because after the UPDATE patch is release, it > > starts to become a prerequisite for new patches. > > Thus, even if one has installed all ECO's in the latest UPDATE ECO, one > > must perforce install the UPDATE ECO in order to > > have later-released ECO's install successfully. > > OK, but by knowing what new stuff is in it, I can decide if I want to > install it soon, or perhaps later (maybe even just before the ECO after > it). You might could tell from the release dates in the included list, if you could trust the editing - which you cannot. > > > I once asked if the UPDATE ECO could check for the presence of installed > > ECO contained within and just either install the ones > > not yet present or (since if some we not there it may well be because the > > are unwanted/unneeded--non-category-one ECO's > > somehow get into these UPDATE ECO's), provide a switch to just mark the > > database so later ECO's don't fail; IOW trust the > > system manager--what a concept. The comment was that this was too hard to > > do. > > Are you saying that one ECO is a TECHNICAL requirement for installing > future ones? Yes, often the UPDATE ECO's are made prerequisites for ECO's that come out after them. > I've certainly skipped some updates. Of course, although > they are cumulative, if the stuff is already installed, it doesn't get > installed again. > AFAIK, the UPDATE reinstalls ECO's unless there are NEWER version of the files being replaced. It's not if the old one is (greater than or equal) that it skips, but only (greater than). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:28:37 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Message-ID: In article , norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: > AFAIK, the UPDATE reinstalls ECO's unless there are NEWER version of the > files being replaced. It's not if the old one is (greater than or equal) > that it skips, but only (greater than). Yep. Just had a bunch of those with V83A-UPDATE 3.0: The following product will be installed to destination: DEC AXPVMS VMS83A_UPDATE V3.0 DISK$ALPHASYS:[VMS$COMMON.] %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]IO_ROUTINES.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]IO_ROUTINES.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]IO_ROUTINES_MON.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]IO_ROUTINES_MON.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]PROCESS_MANAGEMENT.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]PROCESS_MANAGEMENT.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]PROCESS_MANAGEMENT_MON.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]PROCESS_MANAGEMENT_MON.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$CLUSTER.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$CLUSTER.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$CLUSTER_MON.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$CLUSTER_MON.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$PEDRIVER.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$PEDRIVER.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$VM.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYS$LDR]SYS$VM.STB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYSLIB]DECC$SHR.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYSLIB]DECC$SHR_EV56.EXE was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, file [SYSUPD]DECC$RTLDEF.TLB was not replaced because file from kit has lower generation number %PCSI-I-RETAIN, imglib module DECC$SHR was not replaced because imglib module from kit has lower generation number Portion done: 0%...10%...20%...30%...40%...50%...60%...70%...80%...90%...100% The following product has been installed (and a recovery data set created): DEC AXPVMS VMS83A_UPDATE V3.0 Patch (maintenance update) DEC AXPVMS VMS83A_UPDATE V3.0: OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 UPDATE V3.0 VMS83A_UPDATE-V0300 Release notes available Release notes for the VMS83A_UPDATE-V0300 kit and all included kits are available at SYS$COMMON:[000000.SYSHLP] -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 05:19:06 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article > , > norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > > >>Actually, this becomes moot, because after the UPDATE patch is release, it >>starts to become a prerequisite for new patches. >>Thus, even if one has installed all ECO's in the latest UPDATE ECO, one >>must perforce install the UPDATE ECO in order to >>have later-released ECO's install successfully. > > > OK, but by knowing what new stuff is in it, I can decide if I want to > install it soon, or perhaps later (maybe even just before the ECO after > it). > What do you mean by "new" stuff? ECOs that haven't previously been released as separate kits? Or ECOs that you haven't already installed? If the 1st meaning, the answer is "NONE". AFAIK, there has *never* been an ECO included in an UPDATE kit that wasn't previously issued as a separate kit. > >>I once asked if the UPDATE ECO could check for the presence of installed >>ECO contained within and just either install the ones >>not yet present or (since if some we not there it may well be because the >>are unwanted/unneeded--non-category-one ECO's >>somehow get into these UPDATE ECO's), provide a switch to just mark the >>database so later ECO's don't fail; IOW trust the >>system manager--what a concept. The comment was that this was too hard to >>do. > > > Are you saying that one ECO is a TECHNICAL requirement for installing > future ones? I've certainly skipped some updates. Of course, although > they are cumulative, if the stuff is already installed, it doesn't get > installed again. > Generally, ECOs issued more than a short while (a few days, weeks, or maybe a month?) after an UPDATE kit require that UPDATE version as a prerequisite, assuming they have any prerequisites at all. Is that what you mean by a TECHNICAL requirement? You could always hack the PCSI database to make it think the ECO was there, but that is completely unsupported and undocumented, and anyway it's much easier to just install the UPDATE. And after many years of UPDATEs, it is certainly much easier, faster and safer to install the latest UPDATE than to install dozens if not hundreds of individual ECOs. Plus the latest ECOs have only been tested with the listed prerequisites, and not with all possible random sets of previous ECOs, so you would be swimming in shark-infested waters (VMS joke :-) if you tried to hack it and had left out some "I don't really need this" ECOs. Why are you trying so hard to avoid just installing the UPDATE? If your scared of breaking something, don't install at all until you need to, or wait for a month or two to see if anything problematic crops up. (The original March 07 V7.3-2 UPDATE (V10.0) had a bug in it and was replaced a few days later by V11.0. If there's a serious problem, they usually notice pretty quickly. And all the component ECOs had been out for at least a month when it was released.) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:00:00 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Comparative patch installation (was Re: ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt) Message-ID: <4v4ai.170661$mJ1.116163@newsfe22.lga> On 06/07/07 18:46, David J Dachtera wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> You know... installing "patches" in Linux is a *lot* simpler. > > You're joking, right? Dead serious. In Debian/Ubuntu, it's as simple as: # apt-get update && apt-get upgrade Then it shows you the outstanding critical bugs and you answer Y or N. If you're stupid, it's even easier: # apt-get update && apt-get -y upgrade (The "-y" switch means, "answer yes to all questions.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 17:41:29 -0400 From: Broderick Crawford Subject: Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Message-ID: <46687bba$0$4684$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > why will not Andrew listen to his own English scientists? :) > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1896266.ece > The storms are the same as always. More and more people are getting in the way of storms because there is more people, not storms getting more and bigger. Also, news coverage is more wide spread and over dramatized. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:55:00 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Message-ID: <46689AD4.BC19D97@spam.comcast.net> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > > why will not Andrew listen to his own English scientists? :) > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1896266.ece Why will Boob not heed his colleagues who beg him to stop posting such off-topic things (especially without flagging them as such)? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:32:34 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Message-ID: <677af$4668a3d8$cef8887a$12563@TEKSAVVY.COM> Broderick Crawford wrote: > The storms are the same as always. More and more people are getting in > the way of storms because there is more people, not storms getting more > and bigger. Also, news coverage is more wide spread and over dramatized. Weather is MONITOR SYSTEM to look at what is happening right now, and using a CCTV camera in a ATM vestibule to predict incoming transactions within a few minutes of a person walking in. (aka: satellite images and radar). Climate is using long term stored MON SYS results to work on long term capacity planning for your systems. And yes, looking at MON SYSTEM, you will see times when CPU goes 100% and when the processes waiting for CPU. (aka: bad storms). But when you do capacity planning, you look at overall performance, and yes, you do look at the number and duration of times the CPU goes 100% to see if there is a trend over time. Weather looks at short term predictions of individual events. Predicting where a storm will head and with what force. Not a precice science. Climate looks at trends. It can't predict specific events, but it can predicts odds of specific events. Here is an example: Back in 1998, we had a bad ice storm in Quebec. The CEO of the electric utility had stated that they had used statistics made during 50 years to decide how strong the utility poles and wiring should be and that this event was a "once time freak event" that they could not have planned for. He was challenged by the media on this. The next day, he came back and admitted that upon looking at statistics, they noticed that the number of freezing rain events in Quebec had risen dramatically in the last 10 years compared to the overall 50 year statistics, and that inside those 10 years, they also saw an trend on the increase. Because freezing rain events don't always hit the same place, one individual doesn't see the whole picture. Sicne 1998, Hydro has been using bigger gauge wiring and sturdier poles (including all the stuff that had crumbled like match sticks due to weight of ice). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 05:31:16 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: HOWTO: Ignoring wildly OT threads Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote: > On Jun 7, 8:43 am, Paul Anderson wrote: > >>In article , >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> >> >>>Any dedicated newsreader worth it's salt has an "Ignore thread" >>>feature. >> >>I heard that doing that contributes to global warming. >> > > > Only if we don't observe the thread. Weisenheimer's theory of thread > entanglement says that an off-topic thread in one newsgroup will spawn > an OT discussion in another group and lead to global warming if the OT > thread is not observed. Thread noodling by the Flying Spaghetti > Monster can cause the entanglement to appear random. > > So says the great Weisenheimer. > > ;-) > Is this an example of quantum thread entanglement? AEF, care to comment? -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:39:31 -0400 From: Chuck Aaron Subject: Perl on VMS 8.3 w osu web server Message-ID: Where can I download the latest version of PERL that will run on vms 8.3 with osu web server 3.10a? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 15:59:51 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: <81ac4$466863ae$cef885cb$21522@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> davidc@montagar.com wrote: > On Jun 6, 10:48 pm, "Craig A. Berry" > wrote: >> In article <5cl99aF307t9...@mid.individual.net>, >> b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >>> Someone else hinted that porting >>> Unix/Linux Open Source Software was somehow trivial and could be >>> done by the people here in their spare time. >> >> To whomever isn't doing something non-trivial in his or her spare >> time, I pity you. And anyone who thinks that all porting work that >> is of value is non-trivial (or is done entirely by volunteers in >> their spare time) is not well-informed about either porting or about >> open source software. > > Never said it was trivial. But I do believe that in many/most cases > it is possible and worthwhile. I agree that sometimes very > complicated things work trivially, while some simple things end up > being a pain. In some cases, it might be worthwhile to just rewrite > it for VMS. > > As noted by others, sometimes it isn't the app that's the problem, but > the dependencies on a bunch of other smaller packages. You can't port > the app without also porting the dependencies. This is where I think > we can provide benefit, by helping with some of these dependencies and > creating a growing library of these that continue to provide base > support, and feeding back updates to the maintainers to provide for > future VMS support. Things like this have been done for Samba and > other projects, where you can download from the main site, and theres > a BUILD.COM or DESCRIP.MMS right there in the distribution. I'm sure > there would be little argument from many of these projects if you > asked them to include a functional DESCRIP.MMS and VMS config.h file > as part of the codebase. > > Since many of these libraries are commonly used in a wide variety of > apps/libraries, a lot of good is possible from it. Any not just for > the sake of porting OSS apps. Many of these libraries are fairly > native on other platforms, and making them "native" on VMS further > eases software portability to VMS, too. What HP ought to do is take some of their $8 billion profits and fund some greybeards to port the still-as-yet un-ported necessary bits. Grease the wheel a bit. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:07:30 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: <1181250450.465201.66020@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 7, 2:59 pm, "John Smith" wrote: > What HP ought to do is take some of their $8 billion profits and fund some > greybeards to port the still-as-yet un-ported necessary bits. Grease the > wheel a bit. Well, something along those lines is worth asking about. Maybe some kind of contest? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:12:46 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: On 06/07/07 14:59, John Smith wrote: [snip] >> >> Since many of these libraries are commonly used in a wide variety of >> apps/libraries, a lot of good is possible from it. Any not just for >> the sake of porting OSS apps. Many of these libraries are fairly >> native on other platforms, and making them "native" on VMS further >> eases software portability to VMS, too. > > > What HP ought to do is take some of their $8 billion profits and fund some > greybeards to port the still-as-yet un-ported necessary bits. Grease the > wheel a bit. That's what HP does with Linux, by writing HP-specific drivers (which usually get merged into the main kernel tree). http://www.hp.com/linux -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:18:31 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei wrote: > And since Mozilla needs GTK, you also need to build GTK, and to do so, > they probably eithe had to hack GTK or X-windows because the X-window on > VMS isn't exactly current. I find it odd that you think this is such a big deal that you have to bring it up over and over and yet the guy porting GTK+ 2.x to VMS never complains about the age of the X implementation (though he is struggling along with truly ancient hardware): http://fafner.dyndns.org/~alexey/gtk-openvms/index.html and the people porting OpenOffice have a long list of challenges they are facing: http://www.oooovms.dyndns.org/ but they too, never mention any trouble with the current X implementation. And I (among others) don't have any particular trouble getting Java-based GUI applications to work on VMS. So other than version number envy, what exactly are you trying to do that you can't do with the version of X on VMS? -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:21:27 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article , "Craig > A. Berry" writes: [my comments snipped] > I'm reminded of a quote by Dave Jones (author of the "OSU" HTTP server): [David Jones's remarks snipped] Was there something in particular about my comments that reminded you of Jones's statement, or are you just free associating? -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 22:55:59 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: On 06/07/07 18:18, Craig A. Berry wrote: > In article , > JF Mezei wrote: > >> And since Mozilla needs GTK, you also need to build GTK, and to do so, >> they probably eithe had to hack GTK or X-windows because the X-window on >> VMS isn't exactly current. > > I find it odd that you think this is such a big deal that you have to > bring it up over and over and yet the guy porting GTK+ 2.x to VMS never > complains about the age of the X implementation (though he is > struggling along with truly ancient hardware): Because the X protocol hasn't changed in a decade. > http://fafner.dyndns.org/~alexey/gtk-openvms/index.html > > and the people porting OpenOffice have a long list of challenges they > are facing: > > http://www.oooovms.dyndns.org/ > > but they too, never mention any trouble with the current X > implementation. > > And I (among others) don't have any particular trouble getting > Java-based GUI applications to work on VMS. > > So other than version number envy, what exactly are you trying to do > that you can't do with the version of X on VMS? Run a 3D compositing window manager which needs OpenGL, AIGLX and transparencies. GPU-assisted MPEG4 decoding also won't work on old versions of X (and old, 3D unaccelerated video cards, for that matter.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 19:57:51 +0100 From: Alan Fay Subject: Re: Questions about changing backup devices/methods Message-ID: <2007060719575116807-alanfay@symanteccom> On 2007-06-06 16:44:10 +0100, Tad Winters said: > I have been asked about changing the way some VMS systems are backed > up. Currently, each system has a directly attached SCSI (single-ended) > tape drive. Each system runs a command procedure on a daily basis, > which uses the native VMS backup program to create image backups of all > the data disks, each in separate save sets. The systems in question > are: > AlphaServer ES40 with OpenVMS V7.3 (data center 1) > AlphaServer 1200 with OpenVMS V7.1-1H1 (data center 1) > AlphaServer 1000A with OpenVMS V6.2-1H3 (data center 2) > AlphaServer 1000 with OpenVMS V6.2 (data center 2) > > The personnel who handle the backup tapes are interested in a more hands- > off approach. They wish to use an autoloader or a tape library. The > current systems do not include any additional software to manage tape > storage. (Also, the only system with a fiber card is the ES40, and > it's not currently being used.) > > Since I've never had any experience with autoloaders or tape libraries, > I'd like to know what it would take to make these work with these > systems. Specifically: > > Will any of these systems require an OS upgrade? If so, which ones? > > What additional software is required? (The proposed library is an HP > MSL6030 and the proposed autoloader is a Quantum SuperLoader 3.) > > Can multiple systems take advantage of one of these devices? If so, can > it be done over TCP/IP? > > If there is a solution here, what does this mean for a system disk > failure? Is it possible to boot from a VMS CD and create (and restore) > an image backup of the system disk? > > Would direct attached tape drives still be required or desirable? > > Thanks for your responses! > > Tad Tad, If you are looking for a more "hands off" approach to backing up your OpenVMS systems you could backup all your systems over TCP/IP to a NetBackup Media server tape robot which could then share the robot and all tapes when backing up all of your systems. You'd need a single UNIX or Windows NetBackup Master and Media server and the NetBackup OpenVMS client to do this, and it does make a very efficient use of your expensive resources. Performance is also very good and your OpenVMS 6.2 systems are supported. Please see the NetBackup Users Guide for OpenVMS which is available from Veritas support:- ftp://ftp.emea.veritas.com/pub/support/Products/NetBackup_OpenVMS/nbu_v6_0_vms_pdf.zip Alan Fay NBU Client Team Roseville Engineering ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:41:38 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: <136grc3q1ml3n80@corp.supernews.com> Hello ! I need to restore an image backup (40GB) onto a bind set (2 x 36GB) Since I must mount /FOREIGN for the restore, there is not bind set... Is there a way around this ? Other than doing a normal restore on a mounted drive (or bind set...) Thanks -- Syltrem http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en français) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 17:13:09 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: <466874E5.4010604@comcast.net> Syltrem wrote: > Hello ! > > I need to restore an image backup (40GB) onto a bind set (2 x 36GB) > > Since I must mount /FOREIGN for the restore, there is not bind set... > > Is there a way around this ? > Other than doing a normal restore on a mounted drive (or bind set...) > > Thanks > Now you know one of the many reasons why a bound volume set should be a last resort! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 17:58:14 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: Syltrem wrote: > I need to restore an image backup (40GB) onto a bind set (2 x 36GB) > > Since I must mount /FOREIGN for the restore, there is not bind set... I do not believe you can do this. Backup restores files maintaining the same file IDs. But in a bound volume set, the file ID contains the physical device where the file begins. (the first of the 3 digits in the file ID). In other words, the file ID is tied to the location of the file. And when backup/image recreates a disk, while it preserves the file ID, it does not preserve location (hence its ability to defragment a disk). So it cannot garantee that your files would be placed the same physical drive and hence maintain the same file ID. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 22:29:01 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: <1181255341.660073.81650@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 7, 4:41 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > Hello ! > > I need to restore an image backup (40GB) onto a bind set (2 x 36GB) > Since I must mount /FOREIGN for the restore, there is not bind set... > > Is there a way around this ? Will the result be for long term production use? Can yo still find that old, retired Polycenter OpenVMS Striping tool? Or some Virtuad Disk driver from Hunter's collection? http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software.html I supposed you could mount-bind the two drives and then use the LDdriver (now that JFM tested that :-) and restore to the LD device?! Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 00:39:02 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: In article <1181255341.660073.81650@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > On Jun 7, 4:41 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > > Hello ! > > > > I need to restore an image backup (40GB) onto a bind set (2 x 36GB) > > Since I must mount /FOREIGN for the restore, there is not bind set... > > > > Is there a way around this ? > > Will the result be for long term production use? > > Can yo still find that old, retired Polycenter OpenVMS Striping tool? > > Or some Virtuad Disk driver from Hunter's collection? > http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software.html > > I supposed you could mount-bind the two drives > and then use the LDdriver (now that JFM tested that :-) and restore to > the LD device?! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ROTFL my socks off. LDDRIVER link: http://www.digiater.nl/lddriver.html If in doubt about which version to use, drop Jur van der Burg an email. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:34:16 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: <93d2d$4668a43d$cef8887a$12563@TEKSAVVY.COM> Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > I supposed you could mount-bind the two drives > and then use the LDdriver (now that JFM tested that :-) and restore to > the LD device?! Remember to NOT use the LDdriver that came with VMS 8.3 for bound volume sets. I think the later version directly from the developper fixes that. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:51:51 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: <1181274711.772917.227000@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Syltrem wrote: > Hello ! > > I need to restore an image backup (40GB) onto a bind set (2 x 36GB) > > Since I must mount /FOREIGN for the restore, there is not bind set... > > Is there a way around this ? > Other than doing a normal restore on a mounted drive (or bind set...) > > Thanks > > -- > Syltrem > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en fran= =E7ais) Syltrem, First, I would want to make sure precisely what the contents of the save set are. Are they the contents of both volumes of the bound volume set? or are they an image backup of one member of the volume set? With all due respect, I will disagree with those who question the usability of bound volume sets, They are one option to achieve certain goals. When used correctly, they are a reasonable solution. Depending on the contents of your backup save set, I would recommend different approaches. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 01:22:36 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Re: Restoring an IMAGE backup to a BIND volume set ? Message-ID: <136hpt6881j1368@corp.supernews.com> "Syltrem" a écrit dans le message de news: 136grc3q1ml3n80@corp.supernews.com... > Hello ! > > I need to restore an image backup (40GB) onto a bind set (2 x 36GB) > > Since I must mount /FOREIGN for the restore, there is not bind set... > > Is there a way around this ? > Other than doing a normal restore on a mounted drive (or bind set...) > > Thanks > > -- > Syltrem > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en > français) > > I finally did a plain restore to the mounted bind-set, and fixed the directory alias names that needed to be fixed, afterward. I resumed the backups /incremental to it and all is well. This disk is on our disaster recovery machine. I can't have the same capacity disks on that machine, unfortunately. But bind sets usually work just nice. Thanks to all who responded, I will have a look at these utilities... Syltrem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:42:08 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL and ERRLOG.SYS Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > Back in the old days, it was common to have one system disk with lots of > nodes booting from it, either boot servers or satellites. These days, > it's probably more common to have several boot nodes in a cluster, each > with its own system disk. Particularly so with the advent of geographically spread clusters. > Thus, SYS$SPECIFIC/SYS$COMMON is not so > important in practice, whereas cluster-common stuff is, especially > considering the fact that many files in this area (e.g. SYSUAF) > actually define the personality of the cluster. I'll just add a reminder here that SYLOGICALS.TEMPLATE contains a list of candidates for moving off the system disk to a separate cluster common disk. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:56:57 -0700 From: - Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: >> On 06/06/07 10:30, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> In article , >>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>> On 06/06/07 07:58, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> In article , >>>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>>>> On 06/05/07 13:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>> All of which applies to BSD equally except that BSD had several years >>>>>>> headstart (including the development that continued despite the AT&T >>>>>>> lawsuit which everyone involved in the technical side of the game knew >>>>>>> was never going to go anywhere). The only thing Linux has that BSD >>>>>>> does not is marketing. And look at the difference in awareness and >>>>>>> interest. BSD's license is much more business friendly than the GPV. >>>>>> Two words: Unix Wars. >>>>> People keep mentioning that but unless your a techie it really means >>>>> nothing. >>>> I *am* a techie, and I *do* remember when all the various vendors >>>> took BSD or licensed SVRx and "compatible" C & Unix became a >>>> mismash, and then there was the OSF, Unix International, etc, none >>>> of which really unified Unix. >>> Ancient history. And irrelevant to the discussion of current BSD vs. >>> Linux. >> I think that it *is* relevant because it was the "business friendly" >> BSD license (which allows each company to keep it's own changes) >> that caused the Unix Wars in the first place. > > What you call the Unix Wars is nothing different than the battling > between all proprietary OSes. It's called business and yes, it is > war. And while many of those Unixes are still around and kicking > today they don't enter into the debate because we were comparing > Free Unixes. A CIO who is going to buy AIX is going to buy AIX and > the superiority of BSD over Linux doesn't enter into it. But when > one is going to base their strategy on a Free Unix then one has to > ask why one over the other and more importantly, why did the inferior > product win the market? The only good thing that Linux has over BSD > is hype and that is totally the result of strong marketing. > >> The (smart) big vendors remember these things. >> >> Counterintuitively, the "viral" GPL (which says, in essence, "freely >> you get other people's work, freely you must share your own work") > > Is that like forced volunteerism that is all the rage today? I can't > be coerced into giving something "freely". > >> ensures that the Unix Wars can not happen again. > > Not hardly. There is at least one distro that has two versions. One > they give away for free and the other you have pay for. And they openly > admit the two are different. And the one you pay for has additional > features not in the free one. And there are other GNU Programs that > while living up to the letter of the agreement do not live up to the > spirit in that they have made the source code they provide useless > without paying them for the tools to work with it. > >> Thus, it's sort of a neutral platform where binary compatibility is >> almost guaranteed. > > Your joking, right? Debian won't run RedHat. RedHat won't run Slackware, > etc. Pig ignorant rant. Since you've not taken the trouble to understand the linkage among various Linux distros, you're just contributing FUD. > >> And now both IBM & HPaq are selling boat-loads of Linux-installed >> servers & blades, making both very happy. IBM is probably also >> selling lots of Linux-running POWER systems in compute farms where >> AIX isn't needed. > > Yeah, I know and that is even more confusing (and I fear does not bode > well for the industry). Why would IBM push Linux? I admit to being > baffled by that one. Because you haven't bothered to approach the issue with an open mind. "Give away the razor and sell the blades" >>> Considering how unlikely it is that any CIO today has ever heard >>> of BSD it is even more unlikely that they know what the "Unix Wars" were. >>> >>> >>>> And while the Unix vendors were fighting, VMS slid and MSFT became >>>> unstoppably dominant. >>> And yet, Linux is rapidly moving into the datacenter. And the whole >>> point of what I said was, "Why Linux? Why not BSD?" >> See the previous paragraphs regarding the BSD & GPL licenses. > > I doubt the license has anything to do with it. The BSD is much more > business friendly and the GPL is extremely dangerous (in the business > sense). The only real difference I can see is they all know what Linux > is, afterall it's in all the trade journals everyday. When have you > ever seen more than a casual mention of a current BSD in one? Sound > like VMS again? Wrong. Wrong and wrong. You've clearly bought the MS argument. You don't understand the GPL. Clearly, IBM, HP, Oracle, Sun, Novell, MS don't think that the GPL is "... extremely dangerous..." >>> And the answer >>> remains the same as the answer to. "Why not VMS?" >> Up-front costs and COTS hardware. > > While that may contribute, I think the lack of knowledge caused by > the current stealth marketing is much more to blame. Even back in > my days selling systems it was always pointed out to me that the > cost of the hardware was in most cases a rather insignificant portion > of the overall cost of establishing and operating a system. And, it's > write-off money anyway. Business looks for solutions. Linux is one solution. BSD is another solution, VMS is another solution. VMS will never be marketed like BSD or Linux (nor should it). Deal. >>>>> There are currently three popular BSD distributions. How >>>>> many Linux distros are out there today? And anyone running commodity >>>>> COTS boxes is going to learn with very little research that FreeBSD >>>>> is the one that concentrated on and optimized for that platform. >>>> I remember when ftp.cdrom.com ran off a modestly powered FreeBSD box. >>> I have been running this department off of modeswtly powered FreeBSD >>> boxes for years. I ran a news server that actually made it into the >>> top 100 (I don't remember how high it actually got but it was impressive >>> considering my total lack of a budget to support it!) running FreeBSD >>> on comodity boxes. >>> >>>> Anyway, Linux has commercial products like Oracle and engineering >>>> CAD apps, important free packages like Sun Java (although >>>> compatibility modules might let it run on FreeBSD) and the drivers >>>> to get full usage of my NVIDIA video card. >>> Which comes back to the same issue. Why not FreeBSD? It is empirically >>> provable that it is better, technically, than Linux. And the answer is, >>> once agsain the same as why ISV's are leaving the VMS camp in favor of >>> Linux. >>> >>>> Overall, though, you won't hear me complaining because you run FreeBSD. >>> Well, you certainly won't hear me complain. We once tried to use Linux >>> to do the job because people wanted the more popular option. It took >>> less than one semester to have all of them learn what a mistake Linux >>> really was. We have never looked back and Linux will never have a >>> place in our server farm as long as I am the Admin here. >> I'd *REALLY* like to hear what the problem with Linux was. > > Are you really serious? Broken LPD. Badly broken NFS. Extremely > inefficient IP stack because of NIH Syndrom. > Whose LPD? NFS is a steaming pile and always has been. What's an "extremely inefficient IP stack" and how could you tell? >>>>> Now, >>>>> if your running 15 year old Sparc boxes...... >>>> NetBSD, anyone? :) >>>> >>>> Linux (Debian, specifically) will also run on most of those boxes. >>> Of course it will, But if you are trying to set up an efficient operation >>> running on commodity COTS x86 boxes why would you want to use something >>> that has code in it targeted at other architectures. Give me the one >>> optimized for my platform every time. >> And if you chose the losing platform... > > The industry has chosen x86. Why would I want to run a version of an > OS that had to do or not do something in order to maintain support for > Sparc or PARisc? That was my point. Of course, I assume Linux falls > into the same catagory as Open|Net BSD as it also claims support for > all these other oddball systems. Hmmmm... Maybe that explains some > of the inefficiency. Wrong again. All it explains is your desire to bloviate. > >> (Not that x86 will lose any time soon, but you get my point.) >> >> [snip] >>>>>> You'd be stunned by the disagreements between major kernel >>>>>> developers on the linux-kernel mailing list (lkml). >>>>> Actually, no I wouldn't. Children squabble all the time. >>>> Oh, you mean Theo de Raadt?? :0 >>> Yeah, but then he doesn't control FreeBSD, does he? >> He leads a BSD. > > And not the one I would recommend to anyone planning on using x86 COTS > boxes. So, irrelevant to the discussion at hand. When someone says, > "It's my ball and we play by my rules." I usually just go find another > game. Please, please, please find another game! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:18:34 -0700 From: - Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/06/07 09:33, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > [snip] > > >> It's not clear to me why a VMS programmer should want/need a Unix >> style fork. If you really need a Unix environment, use Unix. FWIW, I >> believe that many or most of the useful Unix utilities can be, or >> already have been, ported to VMS. I have both grep and gawk for VMS >> as well as GVG Make. Make is already on my web page and I'll be glad >> to make grep and gawk available if anyone needs such things. There >> was a "tail" utility in the days before TYPE /TAIL was implemented. > > I don't necessarily *want* Unix. But I *really* like the programming > control structures in bash. On one line, you can whip out for-looping > "if-then-else"ing ad-hoc utility that would require a 20 line script in > DCL. Agreed. But then you would have the bloated turd that is Bash. I choose Perl for those brilliant one-liners. Awk is also a great tool for those parsing situations where DCL is just hopeless. But, you already knew that... BTW, check out urxvt. It links to the Perl engine. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:35:35 -0700 From: - Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: June 5, 2007 10:12 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Story Time >> >> In article >> > t>, >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] >> On >>>> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >>>> Sent: June 5, 2007 8:50 AM >>>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>> Subject: Re: Story Time >>>> =20 >>>> In article <1181020029.542678.272580@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, >>>> davidc@montagar.com writes: >>>>> On Jun 4, 5:13 pm, Sue wrote: >>>>>> Dear Newsgroup, >>>>>> So why am I telling you this, because I get mail and I see posts >>>>>> everyday saying the same thing. >>>>> True. I get tired of reading posts by the same folks telling me >>>> (and >>>>> others that stumble into this group) how OpenVMS is dying, what >> next >>>>> faux pas HP has committed to accelerate the death of OpenVMS, >> yada >>>>> yada yada. No good deed seems to go unpunished, every win is >> back- >>>>> spinned into a loss. >>>>> >>>>> By these standards, Linux should not exist, there was no money, >> no >>>>> support, no marketshare. Worse than what OpenVMS has. But it >>>> exists. >>>> =20 >>>> But Linux has the one thing that the people in this group you >>>> denigrate >>>> have repeatedly said was needed, marketing. I personally have >> stated >>>> numerous times that if marketing can do what it has for a puile of >>>> crap >>>> like Linux just imagine what it could do for a gem like VMS!! >>>> =20 >>>>> Because for the most part, people don't complain, they >> contribute. >>>>> There's fewer applications available you say? Then port >> something. >>>>> There are tons of quality applications that are GPL'd than would >> be >>>>> great to port to OpenVMS. Not anything useful? I call BS. >> After >>>>> all, what exactly do you think make a Linux distribution today, >>>>> anyway. >>>> =20 >>>> Except that the largest majority of those truly useful applications >>>> can not be ported to VMS. Why? Because half of them require >> fork() >>>> and the other half require a current version of X11. Neither of >> which >>>> VMS has or is likely to have in the near (or even distant) future. >>>> =20 >>> Please, lets forget the hype here ok? >>> >>> Are you saying that because OpenVMS does not support fork (a UNIX >> way of >>> doing IO), that its future is doomed? >> That's not what I said at all. Someone else hinted that porting >> Unix/Linux Open Source Software was somehow trivial and could be >> done by the people here in their spare time. I merely pointed out >> that porting from Unix/Linux to VMS is anything but trivial unless >> the program itself is trivial (and therefore of little if any value.) >> > > There are major UNIX applications that have been ported to OpenVMS and > other platforms for that matter and while there are always some OS > specific things that might need to be done another way, it certainly is > not something that is a showstopper. > > Hey, what do you think Oracle does for OpenVMS? For Windows? > >> Oh, and fork() is not "a UNIX way of doing IO". >> >>> Geez, I guess Microsoft will be heart broken to hear their platform >> is >>> doomed because it does not support fork either. >> Microsoft's OSes already support all the useful applications they >> need. >> They are not in need of someone porting OSS in their spare time. And, >> >> Funny, I have fork() on the XP box on my desk (at least under Cygwin, >> I haven't done any native Windows development in a long time so I >> can't >> say if they have it now, too.) >> >>> There are many ways to accomplish a given task. In some cases, there >> are >>> better ways of doing the same thing. >> OK, so how would you accomplish the equivalent of fork() in all this >> OSS people think we should be porting to VMS? If you know a "better >> way" stop keeping it under your hat. >> > > Simple - you start with research 101 and enter "fork OpenVMS" into > google or you read the VMS FAQ's. > > As examples: > http://lists.samba.org/archive/rsync/2002-March/001754.html > >>> As far as the University scene goes, they are under huge, huge >> pressure >>> to reduce costs, so the various Colleges and Departments within the >>> University are jumping on the open source, Linux stuff not because >> it is >>> technically better, but rather because it is low cost (at least when >> you >>> look at the initial cost only).=20 >> Nice excuse, but I just told you they have a VMS machine here for >> academic >> use. It is running all the time. No one uses it. Now, why would >> that be? >> > > Probably because they do not even know it is there or what ever IT > service is offered on the OpenVMS system is not of interest to them. > >>> However, like the old saying goes, "the grass is not always greener >> on >>> the other side" and these same Universities are now struggling with >>> monthly security patching, version control, license monitoring, >> change >>> management and yet still keep in line with regulatory requirements >> like >>> FERPA, SOX, HIPPA etc.=20 >> Yeah, keep telling yourself that. They are "struggling" so hard I'll >> bet you get a thousand calls a day asking for you to deliver new >> Itanium >> VMS systems to Universities all over the world. :-) >> > > They are struggling big time "no staff, to many patches, to many > regulatory concerns, to many things to do etc etc .." were common > complaints from the IT survey we did (and this environment was all > Windows and Solaris. > > Their big mandate was to migrate from Solaris to Linux - ASAP was the > speed I was told. Which was technically better made no difference as up > front costs were all they were worried about. Unfortunately, when I > pointed out all of the monthly security patches for Linux, they were > amazed (shocked?) because they were not aware that there are so many > released every month. Quantity and quality. New hacks/attacks appear every day; the zero-day hack. Always take VMS security over *nix security. But, VMS security over SELinux? That's an open question. BTW, which distro? Let the distribution handle and merge kernel updates; the end user shouldn't be doing this. Layered application updates... could be an issue. Linux isn't kernel+layered applications, unlike BSD, Solaris or VMS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 15:54:34 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <27773$46686271$cef885cb$21314@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> davidc@montagar.com wrote: > On Jun 7, 8:44 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> Nice thought, but not reality. The fate of VMS is toatlly in the >> hands of HP. The community can do anything it wants to put apps >> on VMS but unless HP is willing to sell it to potential customers >> (and such customers exist) VMS will wither on the vine, except maybe >> in the basements of hobbyists. > > Read that carefully - VMS, by itself, is simply a platform. If HP > sells you the platform, what are you going to do with it? You need > support from a developer community so you can sell a solution that > does something. There's an active developer community, and tons of > code, out there able to be capitalized on. I think we, as a > community, can help take advantage of that. > > Although you dismiss them, the ports of Apache, MySQL, PHP are an > example of some of the enabling technologies where OpenVMS is actively > competing in the data center against Sun, MS, IBM, and others. > There's an incredible amount of PHP code available for doing cool > things, and having it backed by the extra security of OpenVMS is a > value added. And commercially, are probably where most of the Linux > installations are situated, not the desktop. > >>> That's why HP has been doing programs like the HP Integrity >>> Developers Workshops (which, I think is a marketing effort costing >>> in the hundreds of thousands of dollars), >> >> That's not marketing, that's preaching to the choir. > > Okay, so you think they shouldn't do this program? I think it's a > benefit since it promotes continued development, and the free hardware > doesn't hurt. > >> >>> free downloads of software for >>> DSPP, free Integrity SDK kits shipped to you simply for the asking, >>> and more. >> >> But only the VMS faithful know about any of this. > > Actually, I've told many people about it. In fact, that's actually > one of the "intentions" of the Hobbyist Program, is to encourage use > of OpenVMS, and even software development on OpenVMS. Of course, if > you develop a commercial product for OpenVMS, you'll need to sign up > for DSPP or something to get non-Hobbyist licenses before you sell the > first copy, but DSPP is pretty cheap, too. David, It's great that you've told some/many people about the programs -- but so have we all here. HP dodn't try to punch its way out of a paper bag to get to the rest of the world with that message. They are only interested (or so it appears by their actions) to reach a tiny subset of the, ie. those who still develop for VMS. Rather than seeding the market by spending several hundred thousand buck advertising the existence of the programs in any of the Linux magazines or banner advertising, or even in Oracle Magazine to reach those that use Oracle on Windows or Linux, or making a deal with 100 CS or Engineering departments @ universities to *give* VMS distro DVD's to all 1st year students along with low-end refurb'd Alpha's or old-model Itanics, HP does nothing. And as a consequence, businesses, new grads, and even the old-timers all have neither heard of VMS or firmly believe that it's dead already. I know from my days as a student government leader in my days at university, that we would have foud a way to arrange that for each freshman, even if the faculty/department didn't want to formally participate in such a giveaway. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:25:37 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article , - wrote: > Because you haven't bothered to approach the issue with an open mind. > "Give away the razor and sell the blades" LOL! I don't know if that was intentional, but "sell the blades" is very apt. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 00:11:38 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article <1181227232.012679.272560@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Andrew wrote: > On 7 Jun, 00:33, "P. Sture" wrote: > > In article , > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > > VMS is secure from the get-go, but Linux not so much. Is SELinux > > > enabled? If so, then what profiles are enabled/created? (SELinux > > > was designed to bring mainframe/VMS-style security to Linux.) > > > > is SELinux widely available, and if so, widely adopted? > > > > It is widely available but it tends to get turned off because many > admins struggle to get it to work. > > RedHat have started a campaign to get admins to use it rather than > turn it off which is getting a mixed reception. > > There is currently a discussion about it on Slashdot. > > http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/007218 > Thanks for the link. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 21:32:12 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Story Time Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: June 6, 2007 9:07 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Story Time >=20 > In article <6b73a$4665e85d$cef882ba$14597@teksavvy.com-free>, > "John Smith" writes: > > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > >> In article <5cl50bF2v760eU3@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu > >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> > >>> This is more meaningful than you might think. We still have a VMS > >>> machine here for academic use. And every faculty, staff and > student > >>> has an account on it. How does this show up in the VMS constant? > I > >>> am sure that the existence of this machine is counted in HP's > numbers > >>> somewhere. Only problem is, no one uses it. Students haven't > used > >>> it for years. The last users were dinosaur faculty who still read > >>> their email there. But the University Datacenter fixed that. > They > >>> stopped letting it receive or send email. Now, it sits int he > >>> computer room consuming electricity and generating heat. I ran > the > >>> last VMS machines for academic use and as everyone here already > >>> knows, they were shutdown last year. So, I guess at least here, I > >>> was that ONE GUY. > >> > >> OK, you're one guy, and I know another one guy. That's two guys. > It > >> used to be, not 2 users, but several thousand users. > > > > > > At this rate of growth of 'continuing' academic use, pretty soon VMS > will > > again be running at all universities world-wide :-( >=20 > What growth? This university was a net loss. I shut ours down for > the > last time last year. As a matter of fact, I will be rolling the > hardware > out the door this week. Attempts to save them have failed and the > floor > space they occupy is worth way more than any percieved value in the > actual > machines. Sad really.... >=20 > bill >=20 Bill, Just to clarify something ... are you talking business admin or academic computing ? Did I note in one of your other replies that you stated your University was running Banner on OpenVMS? Thx Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 04:12:28 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/05/07 23:55, John Santos wrote: > >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> >>> On 06/05/07 08:23, Main, Kerry wrote: >>> [snip] >>> >>>> >>>> fork (a UNIX way of >>>> doing IO) >>> >>> >>> >>> Say what? >>> >> >> I think what Kerry means :-) is VMS needs a UNIX way of doing I/O >> in order to implement a UNIX style fork. (I.E. fork clones the >> I/O environment so that the child process can access the FILEs >> previously open by the parent process.) Yeah, that's the ticket! > > > But I thought VMS was perfect? > Perfect? Certainly not. It is the *worst* operating system, except for all the others. :-) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:11:14 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: Rick Jones wrote: > Apart from those someone mentioned from DEC, HP did sell a 10/100 PCI > NIC for HP 9000's. The NIC had three connectors on it - BNC, AUI and > RJ45. IIRC it used a Digital 21140 chip. Been so long though I > cannot recall the part number, only that it was driven by the btlan6 > driver (pre grand btlanN merge in HP-UX 11.11). Some of the HP ones are 100baseVG not 100baseTX on the 100Mb port. If you use the 10Mb/s port that won't matter, though. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:40:51 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: <1181252451.529645.88170@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 7, 12:45 pm, Keith Parris wrote: > Jim Mehlhop wrote: > > Anyone know of a particular Ethernet board with Thin Wire Coax (10MB) > > connectorr that will run on an Alpha?? > > I believe the DE425, DE435, and DE450 PCI cards would qualify. Check the > Supported Options list for the particular Alphaserver model on the HP > website. If you had to, you can get an adapter box with RJ45 on one side and RG48 on the other. They used to include those with Alpha's (like the DEC 3000's) when there was still a lot of thin-wire infrastructure. I probably have one in a closet somewhere... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 19:11:33 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: In article , "John E. Malmberg" writes: > How does it work with zen.spamhaus.org ? Do you mean lowercase? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:11:37 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article , "John E. Malmberg" > writes: > > > How does it work with zen.spamhaus.org ? > > Do you mean lowercase? Here's what I see on my system: $ type spam_check.com $ ADDRESS = P1 - "[" - "]" $ if p2 .eqs. "" then p2 = "zen.spamhaus.org" $ A = F$ELEMENT(0,".",ADDRESS) $ B = F$ELEMENT(1,".",ADDRESS) $ C = F$ELEMENT(2,".",ADDRESS) $ D = F$ELEMENT(3,".",ADDRESS) $ TCPIP SH HOST 'D'.'C'.'B'.'A'.'P2' $ EXIT $! $ @spam_check [200.34.32.20] ! from a piece of spam BIND database Server: aa.bb.cc.dd my.dns.server Host address Host name 127.0.0.4 20.32.34.200.ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG But, using an address not in spamhaus: $ @spam_check 192.6.234.17 ! one found by "nslookup hp.com" %TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found -RMS-E-RNF, record not found -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:38:47 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article , "John E. Malmberg" > writes: > >>How does it work with zen.spamhaus.org ? > > Do you mean lowercase? No. Look at your original post. :-) -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:44:05 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: <9L0ai.92062$n_.79632@attbi_s21> P. Sture wrote: > In article , > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > reply) wrote: > > >>In article , "John E. Malmberg" >> writes: >> >> >>>How does it work with zen.spamhaus.org ? >> >>Do you mean lowercase? > > > Here's what I see on my system: > > $ @spam_check 192.6.234.17 ! one found by "nslookup hp.com" > %TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found But it is listed in zen.spamhouse.org. I suspect all of IPv4 is listed. $ nslookup 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhouse.org Name: 17.234.32.20.ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG Address: 127.0.0.2 -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:52:39 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: <46689A47.E1842627@spam.comcast.net> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > I have my TCPIP stuff set up to use ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG as an RBL and it > seems to work. However, when using the following procedure to query > directly, I ALWAYS get 127.0.0.2 as a response. On the other hand, if I > use the query form at spamhouse.org, I get the expected result. > > $ ADDRESS = P1 > $ A = F$ELEMENT(0,".",ADDRESS) > $ B = F$ELEMENT(1,".",ADDRESS) > $ C = F$ELEMENT(2,".",ADDRESS) > $ D = F$ELEMENT(3,".",ADDRESS) Out of curiosity, what is the purpose of all this? Why not just symbol substitute with P1, raw? > $ TCPIP SH HOST 'D'.'C'.'B'.'A'.'P2' ! adding a final "." makes no difference ...and if there are not exactly four (0-3) elements in the dot-delimited list (P1), the result will be syntactically incorrect. (Example: "mynode.......", where "mynode" is a valid - if unqualified - nodename in the local domain.) > $ EXIT -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:38:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: <2c142$4668a551$cef8887a$13093@TEKSAVVY.COM> John E. Malmberg wrote: > $ nslookup 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhouse.org You should try nslookup 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhaus.org instead :-) ^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 02:22:09 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: David J Dachtera writes: >Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> >> I have my TCPIP stuff set up to use ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG as an RBL and it >> seems to work. However, when using the following procedure to query >> directly, I ALWAYS get 127.0.0.2 as a response. On the other hand, if I >> use the query form at spamhouse.org, I get the expected result. >> >> $ ADDRESS = P1 >> $ A = F$ELEMENT(0,".",ADDRESS) >> $ B = F$ELEMENT(1,".",ADDRESS) >> $ C = F$ELEMENT(2,".",ADDRESS) >> $ D = F$ELEMENT(3,".",ADDRESS) >Out of curiosity, what is the purpose of all this? Why not just symbol >substitute with P1, raw? You have to reverse the bytes, plus add the (necessary) periods. >> $ TCPIP SH HOST 'D'.'C'.'B'.'A'.'P2' ! adding a final "." makes no difference >...and if there are not exactly four (0-3) elements in the dot-delimited list >(P1), the result will be syntactically incorrect. (Example: "mynode.......", >where "mynode" is a valid - if unqualified - nodename in the local domain.) The way RBLs work is they create a virtual node name from the IP address, and if the nodename exists, it's listed. IP addresses always have 4 fields. Say you get a email (SMTP) connection from spam-sewer.com. Spam-sewer.com has an IP address of, say, 10.20.30.40. Is it listed? You use the com file to look up whether address 40.30.20.10.zen.spamhaus.org exists. If it does, it is listed as a known source of spam. If it doesn't exist, it's not listed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 03:15:20 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: Michael Moroney wrote: > David J Dachtera writes: > > >>Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> >>>I have my TCPIP stuff set up to use ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG as an RBL and it >>>seems to work. However, when using the following procedure to query >>>directly, I ALWAYS get 127.0.0.2 as a response. On the other hand, if I >>>use the query form at spamhouse.org, I get the expected result. >>> >>>$ ADDRESS = P1 >>>$ A = F$ELEMENT(0,".",ADDRESS) >>>$ B = F$ELEMENT(1,".",ADDRESS) >>>$ C = F$ELEMENT(2,".",ADDRESS) >>>$ D = F$ELEMENT(3,".",ADDRESS) > > >>Out of curiosity, what is the purpose of all this? Why not just symbol >>substitute with P1, raw? > > > You have to reverse the bytes, plus add the (necessary) periods. > > >>>$ TCPIP SH HOST 'D'.'C'.'B'.'A'.'P2' ! adding a final "." makes no difference > > >>...and if there are not exactly four (0-3) elements in the dot-delimited list >>(P1), the result will be syntactically incorrect. (Example: "mynode.......", >>where "mynode" is a valid - if unqualified - nodename in the local domain.) > > > The way RBLs work is they create a virtual node name from the IP address, > and if the nodename exists, it's listed. > > IP addresses always have 4 fields. This is because the program presenting the I.P address will always present it that way, even though other representations are valid in other context. > Say you get a email (SMTP) connection from spam-sewer.com. > Spam-sewer.com has an IP address of, say, 10.20.30.40. > Is it listed? You use the com file to look up whether > address 40.30.20.10.zen.spamhaus.org exists. If it does, it > is listed as a known source of spam. If it doesn't exist, it's not > listed. What is missing from the original poster's program is that when he gets a match, he should look up the text record that goes with the I.P. TCIPIP show host will not do that. $ @sys$startup:tcpip$define_commands.com nslookup [-opt ...] host server # just look up 'host' using 'server' $ nslookup -type=txt 1.0.0.127.zen.spamhouse.org Server: eagle.xile.realm Address: 192.168.0.2 Non-authoritative answer: 1.0.0.127.zen.spamhouse.org text = "This is not the DNSBL you're looking for." The txt record for a DNSbl entry should be included verbatim with the reject code, because it has important information should a real message be classified as spam. $ nslookup -type=txt 1.0.0.127.lists.dsbl.org Server: eagle.xile.realm Address: 192.168.0.2 Non-authoritative answer: 1.0.0.127.lists.dsbl.org text = "Your mail has been rejected because the server you are sending to is misconfigured and using dsbl.org incorrectly" By convention on most DNSbls, 127.0.0.1 should return not listed, and 127.0.0.2 should return listed. $ nslookup -type=txt 2.0.0.127.zen.spamhaus.org Server: eagle.xile.realm Address: 192.168.0.2 Non-authoritative answer: 2.0.0.127.zen.spamhaus.org text = "http://www.spamhaus.org/query/bl?ip=127.0.0.2" 2.0.0.127.zen.spamhaus.org text = "http://www.spamhaus.org/SBL/sbl.lasso?query=SBL233" -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 06:16:41 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: using RBLs interactively Message-ID: In article <2c142$4668a551$cef8887a$13093@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: > John E. Malmberg wrote: > > $ nslookup 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhouse.org > > You should try > > nslookup 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhaus.org instead :-) > ^^^^ Ah: $ nslookup 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhouse.org Non-authoritative answer: Name: 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhouse.org Address: 127.0.0.2 but: $ nslookup 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhaus.org *** my.dns.server can't find 17.234.32.20.zen.spamhaus.org: Non-existent host/domain -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 2007 18:57:31 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: We can now sell & rent RX2660 with VMS Message-ID: IanMiller wrote: > On Jun 1, 12:41 am, "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" > wrote: > > As for VMS - I can't see it going away for some time. A little birdy > > told me that even though HP has stopped selling to the public they are > > actually still manufacturing for "long term contract clients" that are > > continuing to use and develop their apps on VMS. > I assume by this you mean VMS on Alpha, not Itanium. I would sure hope so, other wise this sounds like the final nail in the coffin. Zane ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.311 ************************