INFO-VAX Wed, 06 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 308 Contents: Re: HP wasting millions of dollars on itanium! Re: HP wasting millions of dollars on itanium! Re: HP wasting millions of dollars on itanium! NFS Mount question Re: NFS Mount question OT: Important for US Readers/Participants of C.O.V. Re: OT: Important for US Readers/Participants of C.O.V. Questions about changing backup devices/methods Re: Questions about changing backup devices/methods Re: Questions about changing backup devices/methods Re: SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL and ERRLOG.SYS Re: SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL and ERRLOG.SYS Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: SSH login with expired password Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Re: [OT] 6-JUN-1944 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:42:41 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: HP wasting millions of dollars on itanium! Message-ID: <1181122961.120199.123580@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On 5 Jun, 21:59, Dirk Munk wrote: > Andrew wrote: > > On 5 Jun, 00:21, Dirk Munk wrote: > >> P. Sture wrote: > >>> In article , > >>> Dirk Munk wrote: > >>>> We all agree that HP has maneuvered itself in a cul de sac with the > >>>> IA64. If you want to look for a way out, you have to look for a way out > >>>> for HP-UX. With some luck, HP will allow OpenVMS to use the same way > >>>> out. Sad but true I'm afraid. > >>> It is a strange twist of fate that VMS should become dependent on the > >>> future success of HP-UX. > >> You're right Paul, but that is the case in my view. > > >> Let's see what the others wrote about the future of HP-UX. > > >> Move it to Linux running on x86-64. Nice idea, but do HP-UX customers > >> want that? And where are the big multi-CPU servers based on x86-64? Is > >> it possible to build such servers for a multi purpose OS? And what kind > >> of x86-64, AMD or Intel? And what is the future of x86? > > >> I think Intel was right when they wanted to replace the x86 with IA64. > >> They wanted to start all over again, just like Digital did when they > >> went from Vax to Alpha (even if there were masks for much faster VAX > >> CPUs). The difference is that Alpha was a success. Many regarded the > >> Alpha as one of the finest CPUs around. The EV9 design was seen as > >> revolutionary. In contrast the IA64 design was never seen as promising > >> by many, and it never took off. So in my view they took the right > >> decision, but the product turned out to be wrong. > > >> Why are we happy with x86-64? Because it can run M$ junk, and quite fast > >> too. That is until Mr. Gates produces a new OS that basically does the > >> same as the previous version, but so much more complex (spaghetti > >> programming) that it consumes all the extra CPU power. Is x86-64 a > >> superior architecture? No, absolutely not. It still contains a lot of > >> junk from previous x86 designs. > > >> And are we really happy with the biodiversity in CPU architectures that > >> we are left with now? Sparc, PowerPC and x86-64 (assuming IA64 does not > >> survive). Only the first two can be found in big servers now, and there > >> is no real proof that x86-64 can be used in big servers. Some attempts > >> have been made, but no one bought these servers. And I have no idea how > >> much stretch there still is in x86-64. > > >> And what about Sparc? I'm quite familiar with Sparc systems, and I'm > >> sure no one buys a Sparc system because of its superior design. For > >> instance there was a time (not so long ago) that a Sun E2900 system was > >> equipped with 12 CPUs, 96GB RAM, and that it had one(!!) 66MHz 64bit PCI > >> slot, and five or so 33MHz 64bit PCI slots. That has changed now, but > >> one wonders who buys such a system for normal commercial production. HP > >> systems had a far better IO architecture. > > > Using the E2900 as an example actually tends to disprove your point > > about SPARC rather than reinforce it. > > > The E2900 was designed specifically for for compute intensive > > workloads so the lack of I/O was deliberate and was to reduce cost and > > save space. If you wanted the same compute resource with more I/O then > > you should have bought the E4900 which has roughly 3x the I/O > > bandwidth of the E2900 but which costed more and which also took up > > more space. > > I get your point Andrew, but Sun never pointed this out on their web > pages. A 'normal' Sun customer who thought he needed more than a 8 cpu > 890 would go for the 12 cpu E2900, I've seen it happen all to often. The > E1280, E2900, E4800 and E4900 are all closely related, they share the > OBP firmware for instance. A very important difference between the E2900 > and the E4900 is that you can split up the latter one into two domains, > and that makes it a far more expensive piece of iron. Happily for Sun > and its customers, someone had the brilliant idea to add the two I/O > cages of the E4900 to the E2900, and now suddenly it became a usable server. > Sun does reference the type of application each server is designed for prominently in the server descriptions. They omit bandwidth intensive applications from the recommended application profile for the E2900 (these apps are included in the recommended workloads for the E4900. Domaining on Solaris requires a minimum of one CPU/memory board and one I/O board. Because of that the E2900 could not be configured as a multi domain system. > > > > The E2900 and the E4900 are older systems, the new M5000 for example > > supports 16 cores and 80 PCI-E slots which should be enough I/O. > > I know, I have seen them on the web pages and I have a presentation on > my laptop. In my view these systems seem to be the first Sun servers > with a serious I/O architecture. > The E6900 and F15K/F25K also had pretty balanced I/O and the E10K was for a long time the king of the hill on I/O intensive workloads it boasted easily industry leading I/O throughput (not to be confused with marketing bandwidth) for large Servers. > > > > At the low end the T2000's using Niagara 1 seem to be popular with our > > customers and they have all shown a lot of interest in the T2000 > > replacement based on Niagara 2. > > Not to mention the T1000. I always nickname these T systems Boeing 737, > because the noise they make seem to suggest they are on a runway ready > to take off to Gran Canaria. > The general comment seems to be that they are noisy, though most people don't seem to care about this when they see how low their their power consumption figures are. Power and throughput per RU seem to figure large in peoples reasons for buying large numbers of T series servers. In that sense Sun seem to have been very clever/very lucky or both in that both families of processors Niagara and Rock would appear to play very well in a low carbon world. > > > >> PowerPC seems to be the most promising, but only IBM has servers based > >> on PowerPC. > > >> Getting back to HP-UX, what to do with it? If customers want Linux > >> instead of HP-UX they could change now. Are there Linux "Superdomes"? I > >> doubt it. Is it possible to port HP-UX to something else as PA-Risc or > >> IA64? I doubt it, given the fact that IA64 was designed with HP-UX in > >> mind. HP_UX seems to be a rather monolithic lump of Unix, not easy to > >> port at all. HP wanted to use Tru64 features in HP-UX, but did not > >> succeed. Tru64, the only unix that was deigned to be 64 bit from the > >> beginning. Tru64, modular not monolithic. Tru64, considered to be the > >> best unix ever designed. Tru64, the unix that runs on Alpha. Rebadge it > >> to HP-UX V12, and run it on new alphas (EV8, EV9) That could be the way > >> out for HP-UX, it would solve the IA64 dead end problem, and it would > >> solve the OpenVMS problem. And it would add to biodiversity of the CPU > >> architectures. It will not happen, but in my view it is the best way out. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:56:21 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: HP wasting millions of dollars on itanium! Message-ID: <1181123781.269952.206480@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On 5 Jun, 15:41, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:24:03 -0700, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > > Michael Kraemer wrote: > >> yes. Alpha came too late, 3 years after POWER, > >> and 1 or 2 years after the HP "Snakes". > >> And when it was finally there, its performance > >> left a lot to be desired. > > > I think Alpha performance was pretty good back then. > > Actually it wasn't. It was good on certain benchmarks, but unlike > Power the Alpha was designed by engineers working without a mission > statement from marketing (of course, that is interesting logic, since > there probably wasn't any:-) and as a result they botched the > instruction set. There was no native support for 16 bit integer > arithmetic or unaligned access, unlike RS6000. I met with some of the > key engineers ca. 1994 and pointed this out and was told that all you > need to do was to recode your application to exploit the longer word > length. Now, that was plain stupid and arrogant. > Alpha was pretty consistently the market leader on single CPU FP and Integer benchmarks such as SPEC. Alpha was pretty consistently a follower on benchmarks that exercised the whole system such as TPC, SAP, Streams (with the exception of the GS1280 by which time it was too late). Most customers running commercial workloads had little or no interest in SPEC as a measure and much more interest in TPC etc and that may be one explanation as to why Alpha never took off in the way that its industry leading SPEC CPU performance could have led people to expect. For commercial workloads the TurboLasers pretty quickly started looking very pedestrian from a platform perspective when compared with medium sized and larger Sun's as well as the HP V Series. The only bright spot from a server perspective was the small 4 way Alpha platform, but you cannot build a market on one good server in a pack of mediocre products. Digital hampered Alpha's chances by under investing in the rest of the platform ecosystem required to make a processor successful such as server interconnects, platform software, ISV's and dare I say it marketing. > BTW, Digital invested money into Mips (the number $9M sticks in my mind, > but not certain) some months later the Digital employee responsible for > the deal becomes a VP at Mips. > > The Mips architecture was actually pretty nice, but they screwed up a > few things in their compiler suite, e.g. omitting frame pointers in leaf > nodes, which made signal handling a real nuisance. > > > > > > >> Their Unix and associated apps weren't ready, which was a must > >> a that time. > > > That could have been good from a DEC perspective. > > > But not particular good from a VMS perspective. > > >>> or maybe those idiots who told the customers to replace VMS by Unix or > >>> Win-NT? > >> there's nothing wrong with that. > > > It was obvious a very risky strategy since there were very > > little guarantee that it would be Unix or WinNT on DEC HW. > > > Arne > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:08:57 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: HP wasting millions of dollars on itanium! Message-ID: <1181135337.726047.191060@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 4, 3:58 am, Michael Kraemer wrote: > JF Mezei schrieb: > > > > > Selling 1 VMS system is probably more profitable to HP than selling 10 > > Windows based systems. > > That's not what counts. Sheer volume counts. And by volume, > VMS boxes are outsold by x86 boxes probably by several orders of magnitude. > And if you look at Linux boxes, they are even more profitable: > marginal development on HPs part, no royalties to M$. This reminds me of the salad dressing episode of I Love Lucy. To make a 30-minute story short: Lucy and Ethel go on TV to advertise their salad dressing. They get way too many orders in part because they are charging 40 cents a jar. Then we see Lucy (wearing roller skates, IIRC) pushing shopping carts filled with bottles of salad dressing. Ricky asks how she made so much salad dressing. She says she bought all this salad at the supermarket for 50 cents a bottle. Ricky asks why she bought it for more than they're charging. She says "We thought we'd make it up in volume"! [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:03:48 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: NFS Mount question Message-ID: <1181120628.240694.134270@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> hi all, I have various winboxes, each one running an NSF servers exporting a folder (say, PC1 exporting folder1 and PC2 exporting folder2) I would like to mount those NSF export in a way that seen from the VMS point of view the structure is DNFSx:[root.folder1] DNFSx:[root.folder2] (YES, the same x) in other terms, I wouls like to hook folder1 and folder2 under a common root. is that feasable ? TIA, Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:10:35 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: Re: NFS Mount question Message-ID: <1181124635.816750.239480@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jun 6, 11:03 am, Pierre wrote: > hi all, > > I have various winboxes, each one running an NSF servers exporting a > folder (say, PC1 exporting folder1 and PC2 exporting folder2) > > I would like to mount those NSF export in a way that seen from the VMS > point of view the structure is > > DNFSx:[root.folder1] > DNFSx:[root.folder2] > > (YES, the same x) in other terms, I wouls like to hook folder1 and > folder2 under a common root. > > is that feasable ? do OpenVMS 8.3's GNV command do the trick ? http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/83final/5763/5763pro_022.html#mount_point may I do it with _regular_ TCPIP mount command ? HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 5 on a AlphaServer ES45 Model 2B running OpenVMS V7.3-2 TIA, Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 07:49:50 -0700 From: DJE Systems Subject: OT: Important for US Readers/Participants of C.O.V. Message-ID: <1181141390.039650.67540@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Folks, Those of you who know me know that I don't normally place postings like this. However, this is important enough that I used one of my Earthlink "anonymous" addresses to create a new Google account so I could post this link: http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/juryduty.asp This is real, according to Snopes and Snopes is widely considered a trust-worthy source. U.S. folks - please pass this around as far and wide as you can. The financial well-being of your loved ones, family, neighbors, co- workers, etc. is too important to let this go by. My apologies to the non-US members of this group. David J Dachtera ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:19:51 -0600 From: Jim Mehlhop Subject: Re: OT: Important for US Readers/Participants of C.O.V. Message-ID: <4666D097.4070100@parsec.com> DJE Systems wrote: > Folks, > > Those of you who know me know that I don't normally place postings > like this. > > However, this is important enough that I used one of my Earthlink > "anonymous" addresses to create a new Google account so I could post > this link: > > http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/juryduty.asp > > This is real, according to Snopes and Snopes is widely considered a > trust-worthy source. > > U.S. folks - please pass this around as far and wide as you can. The > financial well-being of your loved ones, family, neighbors, co- > workers, etc. is too important to let this go by. > > My apologies to the non-US members of this group. > > David J Dachtera > Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:44:10 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Questions about changing backup devices/methods Message-ID: I have been asked about changing the way some VMS systems are backed up. Currently, each system has a directly attached SCSI (single-ended) tape drive. Each system runs a command procedure on a daily basis, which uses the native VMS backup program to create image backups of all the data disks, each in separate save sets. The systems in question are: AlphaServer ES40 with OpenVMS V7.3 (data center 1) AlphaServer 1200 with OpenVMS V7.1-1H1 (data center 1) AlphaServer 1000A with OpenVMS V6.2-1H3 (data center 2) AlphaServer 1000 with OpenVMS V6.2 (data center 2) The personnel who handle the backup tapes are interested in a more hands- off approach. They wish to use an autoloader or a tape library. The current systems do not include any additional software to manage tape storage. (Also, the only system with a fiber card is the ES40, and it's not currently being used.) Since I've never had any experience with autoloaders or tape libraries, I'd like to know what it would take to make these work with these systems. Specifically: Will any of these systems require an OS upgrade? If so, which ones? What additional software is required? (The proposed library is an HP MSL6030 and the proposed autoloader is a Quantum SuperLoader 3.) Can multiple systems take advantage of one of these devices? If so, can it be done over TCP/IP? If there is a solution here, what does this mean for a system disk failure? Is it possible to boot from a VMS CD and create (and restore) an image backup of the system disk? Would direct attached tape drives still be required or desirable? Thanks for your responses! Tad ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:06:43 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Questions about changing backup devices/methods Message-ID: <4666DB93.4070705@comcast.net> Tad Winters wrote: > I have been asked about changing the way some VMS systems are backed up. > Currently, each system has a directly attached SCSI (single-ended) tape > drive. Each system runs a command procedure on a daily basis, which uses > the native VMS backup program to create image backups of all the data > disks, each in separate save sets. The systems in question are: > AlphaServer ES40 with OpenVMS V7.3 (data center 1) > AlphaServer 1200 with OpenVMS V7.1-1H1 (data center 1) > AlphaServer 1000A with OpenVMS V6.2-1H3 (data center 2) > AlphaServer 1000 with OpenVMS V6.2 (data center 2) > > The personnel who handle the backup tapes are interested in a more hands- > off approach. They wish to use an autoloader or a tape library. The > current systems do not include any additional software to manage tape > storage. (Also, the only system with a fiber card is the ES40, and it's > not currently being used.) > > Since I've never had any experience with autoloaders or tape libraries, I'd > like to know what it would take to make these work with these systems. > Specifically: > > Will any of these systems require an OS upgrade? If so, which ones? > > What additional software is required? (The proposed library is an HP > MSL6030 and the proposed autoloader is a Quantum SuperLoader 3.) > > Can multiple systems take advantage of one of these devices? If so, can it > be done over TCP/IP? > > If there is a solution here, what does this mean for a system disk failure? > Is it possible to boot from a VMS CD and create (and restore) an image > backup of the system disk? > > Would direct attached tape drives still be required or desirable? > > Thanks for your responses! > > Tad ISTR using a rented autoloader to backup a VMS V5.5-2 system. This used DLT-III/DLT-IV tapes. It replaced a broken 8mm autoloader and what a POS THAT was. No special software was required. When it finished a tape, it ejected it and loaded the next one from the stacker. I guess there are fancier ones that will let you pick a particular tape to load but I have no experience with such. Hell I KNOW there are fancier units; we used such a thing to backup the PC servers and Unix boxes; give me a few days and I might even remember the name of it; Storage Technology? It used bar codes on the tape cartridges. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:17:27 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Questions about changing backup devices/methods Message-ID: On 06/06/07 10:44, Tad Winters wrote: > I have been asked about changing the way some VMS systems are backed up. > Currently, each system has a directly attached SCSI (single-ended) tape > drive. Each system runs a command procedure on a daily basis, which uses > the native VMS backup program to create image backups of all the data > disks, each in separate save sets. The systems in question are: > AlphaServer ES40 with OpenVMS V7.3 (data center 1) > AlphaServer 1200 with OpenVMS V7.1-1H1 (data center 1) > AlphaServer 1000A with OpenVMS V6.2-1H3 (data center 2) > AlphaServer 1000 with OpenVMS V6.2 (data center 2) > > The personnel who handle the backup tapes are interested in a more hands- > off approach. They wish to use an autoloader or a tape library. The > current systems do not include any additional software to manage tape > storage. (Also, the only system with a fiber card is the ES40, and it's > not currently being used.) > > Since I've never had any experience with autoloaders or tape libraries, Autoloaders are simple. Tape libraries like the 10-slot 2-drive TL892 (which can handle TZ89 drives) should run with v6.2 with no problems. How would the tape drives "see" the remote devices? DECnet over IP? > I'd > like to know what it would take to make these work with these systems. > Specifically: > > Will any of these systems require an OS upgrade? If so, which ones? > > What additional software is required? (The proposed library is an HP > MSL6030 and the proposed autoloader is a Quantum SuperLoader 3.) > > Can multiple systems take advantage of one of these devices? If so, can it > be done over TCP/IP? TMSCP over TCP/IP and fast ethernet will work. How much data do you have to back up? > If there is a solution here, what does this mean for a system disk failure? > Is it possible to boot from a VMS CD and create (and restore) an image > backup of the system disk? > > Would direct attached tape drives still be required or desirable? It never hurts to have a table-mounted drive at each DC that you can plug into either machine. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 07:15:48 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL and ERRLOG.SYS Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > My guess is that "clusterwide audit log file" here actually means > SYS$COMMON in practice. This points to what is in some respect a weakness of the cluster concept. We all know about SYS$SPECIFIC and SYS$COMMON, i.e. stuff specific to one node of a given system disk and stuff common to all nodes booting off the same system disk. There is also stuff common to all nodes of a given cluster, and stuff common to all VMS systems in the world. The last point is actually most of VMS. In practice, it is in SYS$COMMON. This makes sense because it is essential to the operation of a system disk. It is in the last group in terms of generality, i.e. it applies to the largest group of VMS systems, but in the second group with regard to practical architecture. It would be nice to have low-level support for CLUSTER$COMMON, say, meaning stuff that is common to all nodes of the cluster, even when there are several system disks. (This could also include stuff common to all VMS systems in the world, if it is not required to be on all system disks.) In practice, many people (I think Hoff once described how it was done at DEC) do this by hand, i.e. use logical names to a) move certain files off the system disk and b) in some cases have one file for ALL nodes even when there is more than one system disk (e.g. SYSUAF). In other cases, it's not a logical name but a SET command or whatever to achieve the same goal. Then, one can define TCPIP$SMTP_COMMON to be a search list. And so on. Back in the old days, it was common to have one system disk with lots of nodes booting from it, either boot servers or satellites. These days, it's probably more common to have several boot nodes in a cluster, each with its own system disk. Thus, SYS$SPECIFIC/SYS$COMMON is not so important in practice, whereas cluster-common stuff is, especially considering the fact that many files in this area (e.g. SYSUAF) actually define the personality of the cluster. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:01:08 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL and ERRLOG.SYS Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > It would be nice to have low-level support for CLUSTER$COMMON, In other words, one could add one (or more) additional translations to SYS$SYSROOT and be sure that, internally, all stuff would use SYS$SYSROOT and logicals defined in terms of it, like SYS$MANAGER, and one could be sure that the right file would be picked up. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 07:58:25 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: In article <3f119ada0706051517h5b454272g56596c0fcd882f83@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW writes: > Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via SSH. > This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: How difficult would it be to port SSH so that it is more VMS like? The other TCPIP stuff is not perfect, but has a more or less VMS look and feel to it. It would be nice if SYS$ANNOUNCE and SYS$WELCOME worked with SSH like with TELNET, if SFTP weren't so restrictive about file formats etc (at least for VMS--VMS transfers) and so on. Also, with TELNET it is possible to log in remotely and do a shutdown with reboot. Nice for remote maintenance. As far as I know, that doesn't work with SSH. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 08:17:58 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article > <3f119ada0706051517h5b454272g56596c0fcd882f83@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW > writes: > > >>Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via SSH. >>This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > > > How difficult would it be to port SSH so that it is more VMS like? The > other TCPIP stuff is not perfect, but has a more or less VMS look and > feel to it. It would be nice if SYS$ANNOUNCE and SYS$WELCOME worked > with SSH like with TELNET, if SFTP weren't so restrictive about file > formats etc (at least for VMS--VMS transfers) and so on. Also, with > TELNET it is possible to log in remotely and do a shutdown with reboot. > Nice for remote maintenance. As far as I know, that doesn't work with > SSH. Some things to investigate: Can this be done with SYSMAN SHUTDOWN in an SSH session (instead of using @SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN?) Since you give it the shutdown command and off it goes on its own, it might not care when the TCP/IP stack goes away. If not, can this be done with SYSMAN using "SET ENVIRONMENT/NODE= followed by SHUTDOWN ? SYSMAN's help says it the arg list is a list of DECNET nodes, but then goes on to talk about using logical names... If the remote node is not DECnet-accessible, maybe you can install DECnet-Plus and use DECnet-over-IP nodes? SHUTDOWN says it shuts down the node in the current environment, so it should work if you can set the environment appropriately. Can SYSMAN (or DECNET-over-IP) be piped through SSH? -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 06:33:51 -0400 From: "Rich Whalen" Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote in message news:f45pf1$310$1@online.de... > In article > <3f119ada0706051517h5b454272g56596c0fcd882f83@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW > writes: > >> Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via >> SSH. >> This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > > How difficult would it be to port SSH so that it is more VMS like? The > other TCPIP stuff is not perfect, but has a more or less VMS look and > feel to it. It would be nice if SYS$ANNOUNCE and SYS$WELCOME worked > with SSH like with TELNET, if SFTP weren't so restrictive about file > formats etc (at least for VMS--VMS transfers) and so on. Also, with > TELNET it is possible to log in remotely and do a shutdown with reboot. > Nice for remote maintenance. As far as I know, that doesn't work with > SSH. > The SSH2 protocol has provisions to convey the SYS$ANNOUNCE and SYS$WELCOME messages at the appropriate times. I do not know if TCP/IP Services port uses them; Process Software's port does. The SFTP protocol has the ability to pass arbitrary file characteristics on file open. There are very few implementations that use this functionality. Process Software's port uses this functionality to retain file characteristics when transfering between VMS systems. Making the above changes (additions) to the source that we started from was not overly difficult, but did take some time. It also takes time to merge the changes in again each time we get updated code from our supplier. The TCP/IP developers are most likely deciding to spend their time on other parts of the TCP/IP Services software. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 12:50:56 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <4666adb0$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >In article ><3f119ada0706051517h5b454272g56596c0fcd882f83@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW > writes: > >> Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via SSH. >> This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > >How difficult would it be to port SSH so that it is more VMS like? The >other TCPIP stuff is not perfect, but has a more or less VMS look and >feel to it. It would be nice if SYS$ANNOUNCE and SYS$WELCOME worked >with SSH like with TELNET, if SFTP weren't so restrictive about file >formats etc (at least for VMS--VMS transfers) and so on. Also, with >TELNET it is possible to log in remotely and do a shutdown with reboot. >Nice for remote maintenance. As far as I know, that doesn't work with >SSH. And it would be nice if SSH doesn't require SYSUAF /NET access for login And it would be nice if SFTP (aka noninteractive) access is independent of SSH (aka interactive) in a supported way And it would be nice if TCPIP uses SYS$SYSROOT vs. currently SYS$SYSDEVICE And it would be nice if TCPIP$UUDECODE gives (error) msgs when it refuses to decode a file cause of its format (where other uudecodes have no problem with) And so on. TCPIP/UCX is still not on par with VMS quality, but is unfortunately very important for us VMS owners/managers/users since years now... Too bad, that TCPware is still on BIND8 and is therefore no longer an alternative for some of us... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 11:04:42 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: In article <4666adb0$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > And it would be nice if SSH doesn't require SYSUAF /NET access for login > And it would be nice if SFTP (aka noninteractive) access is independent > of SSH (aka interactive) in a supported way Somewhat related to this, maybe we need more values for F$MODE(). > And it would be nice if TCPIP uses SYS$SYSROOT vs. currently SYS$SYSDEVICE > And it would be nice if TCPIP$UUDECODE gives (error) msgs when it refuses to > decode a file cause of its format (where other uudecodes have no problem with) > And so on. > > TCPIP/UCX is still not on par with VMS quality, but is unfortunately very > important for us VMS owners/managers/users since years now... Indeed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:06:37 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <1181127997.276369.12420@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 5, 6:17 pm, DeanW wrote: > If we can take a break from the "HP is killing VMS" thread for a > moment, I'd like to ask for some help, so I might have a chance at > selling some VMS to a potential customer: > > Environment: > HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.6 > on an HP rx2600 (1.40GHz/1.5MB) running OpenVMS V8.3 > > Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via SSH. > This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > > AllowNonvmsLoginWithExpiredPw yes > > http://h30266.www3.hp.com/odl/i64os/network/tcpip56/BA548_90007/apbs0... > leads me to believe it should work still in 5.6. Indeed, I get no errors. > > Using that parameter in TCPIP 5.5 (on VMS 8.2-1) gets me this: > > sys0.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_sshd2.exe[58826]: WARNING: > Unrecognized configuration parameter 'AllowNonvmsLoginWithExpiredPw'. > > Tue 05 09:41:58 WARNING: Failed to parse some variables from config > file 'ssh2/sshd2_config'. > > sys0.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_sshd2.exe[58826]: WARNING: Failed to > parse some variables from config file 'ssh2/sshd2_config'. > Tue 05 09:41:58 WARNING: > > ****************** > You may have a old style configuration file. Please follow the > instructions in the release notes to use the new configuration > files. > ****************** > > Pointers, anyone? > > -- > Dean Woodward =o&o > dean.woodw...@gmail.com Dean, I have to get to a meeting this morning, so I do not have time to experiment. If you have a support contract, or if this is pre-sales through some reseller, reporting this as a BUG will have the fastest response. And while I generally do not encourage cross-posting to multiple fora, I would recommend that you post this problem to the HP ITRC OpenVMS Support Forum at http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 While I cannot research it at this instant, the ITRC forum is read by Engineering and others who also may be able to shed some light on the problem. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 13:08:54 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <4666b1e6$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , John Santos writes: >Can this be done with SYSMAN SHUTDOWN in an SSH session (instead of using >@SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN?) Since you give it the shutdown command and off it >goes on its own, it might not care when the TCP/IP stack goes away. Unfortunately doesn't work, as SYSMAN makes a subprocess of the interactive user (where on remote nodes it makes a subprocess of the SMISERVER process) and during the death of the IP stack, the interactive and subproces dies and the shutdown can't complete. You could run your own shutdown solutions (RUN/DETACH) via SYSMAN of course, but pure SYSMAN SHUTDOWN still doesn't work on the local node. >If not, can this be done with SYSMAN using "SET ENVIRONMENT/NODE=IP node> followed by SHUTDOWN ? Yes. But you may need an Alpha(/Itanic) to request another Alpha(/Itanic) shutdown as the VAX SYSMAN can't request POWER_OFF or similar features. (This is a simple problem to fix by HPQ, but still not done and surely won't) And you may also need to shutdown the last (Standalone) Alpha. With what? Request cross over shutdowns at the same time? >SYSMAN's help says it the arg list is a list of DECNET nodes, but then >goes on to talk about using logical names... If the remote node is not >DECnet-accessible, maybe you can install DECnet-Plus and use DECnet-over-IP >nodes? Yup. SYSMAN over DECnet-over-IP works. For decades now. And regarding the logicals, you could enter a list of real node names as a translation of a logical in SYSMAN$NODE_TABLE (in LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY) where this logical enables SYSMAN to handle this nodes as a group by using this logical as/instead-of a node name. btw. Does SYSMAN work now correctly in a pure TCPIP (w/o DECnet) at all? Time for RTFM and test again ;-) >SHUTDOWN says it shuts down the node in the current environment, >so it should work if you can set the environment appropriately. But it doesn't work correctly on the local node. For years now. >Can SYSMAN (or DECNET-over-IP) be piped through SSH? No. But you could make yourself a Secure DECnet via DECnet-over-IP over STUNNEL freeware (as I did years ago)... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 06:20:07 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: In article <4666adb0$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > And it would be nice if SSH doesn't require SYSUAF /NET access for login Why ? Requiring /NETWORK access is a major technique for security assessors to prove that privileged access is not available to remote users, as required by some security regulations. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 14:10:37 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <4666c05d$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >In article <4666adb0$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > >> And it would be nice if SSH doesn't require SYSUAF /NET access for login > >Why ? Requiring /NETWORK access is a major technique for security >assessors to prove that privileged access is not available to remote >users, as required by some security regulations. Because it is inconsistent with LAT, TELNET and CTERM login !! LAT requires /INTERACTIVE (or /DIALUP) CTERM requires /REMOTE TELNET requires /INTERACTIVE (in TCPware this is configurable) SSH requires /INTERACTIVE and /NETWORK If you consider TELNET as correct (which I don't), then SSH should be also /INTERACTIVE only I personally would consider /REMOTE for nonlocal (configurable of course) and /INTERACTIVE for local IP source addresses as correct (for TELNET&SSH). /NETWORKS is for FAL, [s]FTP, REXEC, TASK, ... accesses -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 05:36:00 -0700 From: Jim Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <1181133360.189076.165200@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jun 6, 8:10 am, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: > In article , Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > >In article <4666adb...@news.langstoeger.at>, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > >> And it would be nice if SSH doesn't require SYSUAF /NET access for login > > >Why ? Requiring /NETWORK access is a major technique for security > >assessors to prove that privileged access is not available to remote > >users, as required by some security regulations. > > Because it is inconsistent with LAT, TELNET and CTERM login !! > > LAT requires /INTERACTIVE (or /DIALUP) > CTERM requires /REMOTE > TELNET requires /INTERACTIVE (in TCPware this is configurable) > SSH requires /INTERACTIVE and /NETWORK > > If you consider TELNET as correct (which I don't), then SSH should be > also /INTERACTIVE only > > I personally would consider /REMOTE for nonlocal (configurable of course) > and /INTERACTIVE for local IP source addresses as correct (for TELNET&SSH). > > /NETWORKS is for FAL, [s]FTP, REXEC, TASK, ... accesses > Consider that in addition to virtual terminal capabilty, SSH includes file transfer potential (SFTP) and thus could be considered in the same category as FAL and FTP. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 07:29:52 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <07060607295277_202002DA@antinode.org> From: Bob Gezelter > And while I generally do not encourage cross-posting to multiple fora, > I would recommend that you post this problem to the HP ITRC OpenVMS > Support Forum at http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288 "Support Forum"? Only in the loosest sense of the term "support". Posting a complaint to the form at the "Send us your comments" link from the main VMS page seems to work better for me. At least there, I've never gotten an "HP Support Forums Message Removal" form message for a complaint about a problem with BACKUP and symlinks. (At least I think it was, as I failed to save a copy before it went down the memory hole.) I assume, for reason 7: 7. Other reasons deemed necessary by the HP Support Forums staff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:14:39 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <1181135679.998094.242310@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jun 5, 6:17 pm, DeanW wrote: > If we can take a break from the "HP is killing VMS" thread for a > moment, I'd like to ask for some help, so I might have a chance at > selling some VMS to a potential customer: > > Environment: > HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.6 > on an HP rx2600 (1.40GHz/1.5MB) running OpenVMS V8.3 > > Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via SSH. > This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > > AllowNonvmsLoginWithExpiredPw yes > > http://h30266.www3.hp.com/odl/i64os/network/tcpip56/BA548_90007/apbs0... > leads me to believe it should work still in 5.6. Indeed, I get no errors. > > Using that parameter in TCPIP 5.5 (on VMS 8.2-1) gets me this: > > sys0.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_sshd2.exe[58826]: WARNING: > Unrecognized configuration parameter 'AllowNonvmsLoginWithExpiredPw'. > > Tue 05 09:41:58 WARNING: Failed to parse some variables from config > file 'ssh2/sshd2_config'. > > sys0.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_sshd2.exe[58826]: WARNING: Failed to > parse some variables from config file 'ssh2/sshd2_config'. > Tue 05 09:41:58 WARNING: > > ****************** > You may have a old style configuration file. Please follow the > instructions in the release notes to use the new configuration > files. > ****************** > > Pointers, anyone? > > -- > Dean Woodward =o&o > dean.woodw...@gmail.com so the answer is to port to TCPware ... :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:15:10 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <1181135710.678398.319500@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 5, 6:17 pm, DeanW wrote: > If we can take a break from the "HP is killing VMS" thread for a > moment, I'd like to ask for some help, so I might have a chance at > selling some VMS to a potential customer: > > Environment: > HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.6 > on an HP rx2600 (1.40GHz/1.5MB) running OpenVMS V8.3 > > Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via SSH. > This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > > AllowNonvmsLoginWithExpiredPw yes > > http://h30266.www3.hp.com/odl/i64os/network/tcpip56/BA548_90007/apbs0... > leads me to believe it should work still in 5.6. Indeed, I get no errors. > > Using that parameter in TCPIP 5.5 (on VMS 8.2-1) gets me this: > > sys0.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_sshd2.exe[58826]: WARNING: > Unrecognized configuration parameter 'AllowNonvmsLoginWithExpiredPw'. > > Tue 05 09:41:58 WARNING: Failed to parse some variables from config > file 'ssh2/sshd2_config'. > > sys0.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_sshd2.exe[58826]: WARNING: Failed to > parse some variables from config file 'ssh2/sshd2_config'. > Tue 05 09:41:58 WARNING: > > ****************** > You may have a old style configuration file. Please follow the > instructions in the release notes to use the new configuration > files. > ****************** > > Pointers, anyone? > > -- > Dean Woodward =o&o > dean.woodw...@gmail.com so the answer is to buy TCPware ... :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:38:06 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: >TCPIP/UCX is still not on par with VMS quality, but is unfortunately very >important for us VMS owners/managers/users since years now... Ugh. I've been working on a piece of code for the freeware that detects a TCP/IP breakin attempt by getting auditing data from the audit server, and disabling the attacking IP address. I've seen 31,000+ login attempts from some script kiddie at one time (over a period of a few hours). This causes your audit server log file and ACCOUNTNG.DAT to become huge, among other effects. The TCPIP services are *very* inconsistant as to what they report. TELNET reports the remote IP address in the REMOTE_NODE_ID field. OK. FTP does as well, but *byte reversed from the way TELNET does it!*. (Since TCPIP is big-endian and VMS little-endian, I don't really know which is really correct) SSH doesn't report the remote IP address here at all! All three also report the IP address hex-encoded as part of the REMOTE_USERNAME field (and due to the way TCP/IP works, a real remote username, when it exists, cannot be reported here) - except SSH only does it sometimes. Whether it does or not actually depends on whether SSH is attempting to log into a username that doesn't exist, or a username that exists with the wrong password. (IMO, the REMOTE_USERNAME field should report the remote IP port, possibly along with the remote IP address. That's the closest one can get to a remote user ID over TCP/IP) Enough ranting. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:14:10 -0700 From: DeanW Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <3f119ada0706060814o61f810c1o4bf761bd0b809f18@mail.gmail.com> On 6/5/07, DeanW wrote: > Environment: > HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.6 > on an HP rx2600 (1.40GHz/1.5MB) running OpenVMS V8.3 > > Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via SSH. > This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > > AllowNonvmsLoginWithExpiredPw yes Never mind- it works in 5.6; I had something else getting in the way. It does *not* seem to work in 5.5, and while it seems odd (buggy) to work in 5.4 and 5.6, I don't really care; the 5.5 is on a development system and I can work around it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:02:19 -0700 From: DeanW Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <3f119ada0706060902u2e4f9fcdw36ed45faa5a6e0b3@mail.gmail.com> On 6/6/07, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > How difficult would it be to port SSH so that it is more VMS like? The > other TCPIP stuff is not perfect, but has a more or less VMS look and > feel to it. Indeed. I'm occasionally tempted to hard-code a fixed user/pass into my GUI client, then once it's logged in with a secure channel, have the client immediately TELNET LOCALHOST... ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 12:13:35 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5cnmnfF30o8osU1@mid.individual.net> In article <4665c355$1@flight>, "Malcolm Dunnett" writes: > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message > news:5clpmvF30crfvU1@mid.individual.net... > >> All of which applies to BSD equally except that BSD had several years >> headstart (including the development that continued despite the AT&T >> lawsuit which everyone involved in the technical side of the game knew >> was never going to go anywhere). > > It's dangerous to think that technical merit has any bearing on > the outcome of a lawsuit :-) I was not refering to the technical merit of the case. I meant the techies who were still developing BSD (many of whom were former CSRG members!). It took very little legal knowledge to see that AT&T was happily shooting itself in the foot. > > >> Ask any CIO you know who is involved in one of these Linux migrations >> why Linux and not BSD. The most likely answer will be, "What's BSD?" >> Sure sounds like the same boat VMS is in to me. :-) >> > > Which is somewhat ironic considering that BSD was the "other" operating > system available for VAX when it was first released. So two of the "hottest" > operating systems from the early 80's are in the same boat today. Exactly. And it is (and has been) my contention that it is for the same reason. Total lack of marketing. But then, you already knew that. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 12:58:39 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5cnpbuF30r09tU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 06/05/07 13:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > [snip] >> >> All of which applies to BSD equally except that BSD had several years >> headstart (including the development that continued despite the AT&T >> lawsuit which everyone involved in the technical side of the game knew >> was never going to go anywhere). The only thing Linux has that BSD >> does not is marketing. And look at the difference in awareness and >> interest. BSD's license is much more business friendly than the GPV. > > Two words: Unix Wars. People keep mentioning that but unless your a techie it really means nothing. There are currently three popular BSD distributions. How many Linux distros are out there today? And anyone running commodity COTS boxes is going to learn with very little research that FreeBSD is the one that concentrated on and optimized for that platform. Now, if your running 15 year old Sparc boxes...... > >> BSD is stabler, more secure, more efficient and has more stuff that >> was actually implemented correctly than Linux. And still businesses >> are flocking to Linux and ignoring BSD. And the answer is, marketing. >> Ask any CIO you know who is involved in one of these Linux migrations >> why Linux and not BSD. The most likely answer will be, "What's BSD?" >> Sure sounds like the same boat VMS is in to me. :-) > > And "all those eyes" are constantly looking at various pieces, > saying, "hey, I can make that part 'better' (for some definition of > 'better') or 'I've found a bug, here's a patch'". Huh?? I run FreeBSD here. I upgrade the OS pretty much every summer cause that's free time in a school. I don't make major changes during the school year. Some boxes, doing specific tasks, haven't been upgraded, patched or otherwise changed in years. If it doesn't affect us, I don't patch it!! Basicly, it is no different than what is done with commercial stuff, except that I tend to know sooner with BSD if there is a potential problem than I would with Solaris, IRIX, HPUX or even VMS. This notion that anyone not running VMS has to apply patches every day is, was and always will be hogwash. I can't speak for Linux, but BSD today is not all that different in that respect from any commercial OS. All OSes need periodic fixes. And, contrary to what some VMS bigots like to think, all software has bugs. Some may lay unfound for years, or even decades, but they are there. I only recently applied new patches to BSD 2.11 on my PDP-11. :-) > > You'd be stunned by the disagreements between major kernel > developers on the linux-kernel mailing list (lkml). Actually, no I wouldn't. Children squabble all the time. > But when > someone brings a well-written (meaning: it follows Linus' coding > standards) chunk of code to the table that implements a new feature > (usually a driver) or replaces old code (and is demonstrably better > (faster, simpler, uses less memory) it is accepted. And this is different from FreeBSD in what manner? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 13:06:45 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5cnpr5F30r09tU2@mid.individual.net> In article <6b73a$4665e85d$cef882ba$14597@teksavvy.com-free>, "John Smith" writes: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> In article <5cl50bF2v760eU3@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>> This is more meaningful than you might think. We still have a VMS >>> machine here for academic use. And every faculty, staff and student >>> has an account on it. How does this show up in the VMS constant? I >>> am sure that the existence of this machine is counted in HP's numbers >>> somewhere. Only problem is, no one uses it. Students haven't used >>> it for years. The last users were dinosaur faculty who still read >>> their email there. But the University Datacenter fixed that. They >>> stopped letting it receive or send email. Now, it sits int he >>> computer room consuming electricity and generating heat. I ran the >>> last VMS machines for academic use and as everyone here already >>> knows, they were shutdown last year. So, I guess at least here, I >>> was that ONE GUY. >> >> OK, you're one guy, and I know another one guy. That's two guys. It >> used to be, not 2 users, but several thousand users. > > > At this rate of growth of 'continuing' academic use, pretty soon VMS will > again be running at all universities world-wide :-( What growth? This university was a net loss. I shut ours down for the last time last year. As a matter of fact, I will be rolling the hardware out the door this week. Attempts to save them have failed and the floor space they occupy is worth way more than any percieved value in the actual machines. Sad really.... bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 13:10:09 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5cnq1hF30r09tU3@mid.individual.net> In article <136ccqgi8jca08b@corp.supernews.com>, "Gremlin" writes: > Hi Bill (and all) > > I run a postrgraduate course in (amongst other things) commercial operating What school? > systems security. We cover (in some detail) z/OS, i5/OS, OpenVMS, HP/UX > 11i, Solaris 10, Windows Server and several Linuxes. This is a "hands on" > course demonstrating practical background, risks, vulnerabilities, > commercial considerations, standards and frameworks (SOX, HIPPA, ISO17799, > ISO27001, ISM3, AS/NZS4360 etc) and how "commercial" operating systems have > different risk profiles by the way they are designed and operated. Also > included is the opportunity to hack into any of these OSs as they are > installed as plain vanilla installations with a web and mail server running, > patched according to the vendors' specifications. > > So, Solaris 10, Windows, Linux and HP/UX are regularly hacked and trashed. > The students all fail to get into z/OS, i5/OS and OpenVMS - then, as part of > their assignments, most arrive at the ame opinion (even the Linux > promoters), that OpenVMS seems really good - why haven't they heard of it? > > So at least at this univiersity in my courses they get some exposure and > come to realise that the commerical world is not just Windows/Linux/UNIX - > perhaps HP could pay attention? I tried to make the point that this knowledge was important for our students. It was a minority opinion.o bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 13:21:23 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5cnqmjF3068kvU1@mid.individual.net> In article , JF Mezei writes: > Main, Kerry wrote: >> As far as the University scene goes, they are under huge, huge pressure >> to reduce costs, so the various Colleges and Departments within the >> University are jumping on the open source, Linux stuff not because it is >> technically better, but rather because it is low cost > > > There was a rather depressing (for me) article in COmputer World about > skills that are no longer needed. > > In it, there was one University that decided to still teach Cobol. When > asked why ?, their response was simple: Two of the large employers in > this area still use Cobol and they want Cobol to be taught to the > students they will hire. So the university teaches Cobol. Well, one might argue that that is not the purpose of a University, That's what trade schools are for. But, don't get me wrong, we used COBOL for courses until this last semester (and on VMS until last year). Starting next semester the course that was using COBOL will be done in JAVA. Oh yeah, and we also have at least one large employer (think insurance, dogs and blimps) who still uses COBOL. Sadly, even though I have talked with people there who assured me they have no intention of re-writting all this stuff influential faculty members here have convinced the department that all COBOL is being eliminated everywhere. Hmmmm.... Maybe I can get my wish to go back to being a COBOL programmer after all!! Anybody here hiring (southern US only!). :-) > > > However, most universities look around at what skills are needed and > decided to teach those. And when the trade rags and wanted ads say > "linux this" and "linux that", they rightfully teach Linux to their > students. Actually, it seems much more like academia is rapidly getting out of touch with what is really going in and instead of providing needed skills is much more interested in trying to drive the bus. > > If nobody needs people trained in VMS, then universities don't see the > need to train people in VMS. If you could show a need for 1,000,000 new VMS experts tomorrow I doubt it would change the curriculum at even one University. They have decided that VMS is irrelevant and nothing is going to change that back now. > > many years ago, I had made a suggestion to the then VMS product manager > that he should get his VMS ambassadors to become guest lecturers at > universities and make presentations on VMS clustering and teach them the > concepts of quorum, shaed locks, disk accesses, system management etc. > > This would have told not only students but also teachers that VMS still > has technologies that are leading edge and worth teaching to students so > that when they start hacking in Linux, they better understand what real > clustering is really about. I would love to have seen this. We even have available venues to provide facilities for this to be done not only for students but also for local business leaders. But I am not holding my breath. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:11:13 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <6b73a$4665e85d$cef882ba$14597@teksavvy.com-free>, > "John Smith" writes: >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >>> In article <5cl50bF2v760eU3@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu >>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>>> This is more meaningful than you might think. We still have a VMS >>>> machine here for academic use. And every faculty, staff and >>>> student has an account on it. How does this show up in the VMS >>>> constant? I am sure that the existence of this machine is counted >>>> in HP's numbers somewhere. Only problem is, no one uses it. >>>> Students haven't used it for years. The last users were dinosaur >>>> faculty who still read their email there. But the University >>>> Datacenter fixed that. They stopped letting it receive or send >>>> email. Now, it sits int he computer room consuming electricity >>>> and generating heat. I ran the last VMS machines for academic use >>>> and as everyone here already knows, they were shutdown last year. >>>> So, I guess at least here, I was that ONE GUY. >>> >>> OK, you're one guy, and I know another one guy. That's two guys. >>> It used to be, not 2 users, but several thousand users. >> >> >> At this rate of growth of 'continuing' academic use, pretty soon VMS >> will again be running at all universities world-wide :-( > > What growth? This university was a net loss. I shut ours down for > the last time last year. As a matter of fact, I will be rolling the > hardware out the door this week. Attempts to save them have failed > and the floor space they occupy is worth way more than any percieved > value in the actual machines. Sad really.... > > bill It was sarcasm .... Between you and Phillip there was a doubling of known .edu's in the space of several hours. That's an outstanding annualized growth rate. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:17:16 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <656ed$4666c1e4$cef882ba$16587@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> Gremlin wrote: > Hi Bill (and all) > > I run a postrgraduate course in (amongst other things) commercial > operating systems security. We cover (in some detail) z/OS, i5/OS, > OpenVMS, HP/UX 11i, Solaris 10, Windows Server and several Linuxes. > This is a "hands on" course demonstrating practical background, > risks, vulnerabilities, commercial considerations, standards and > frameworks (SOX, HIPPA, ISO17799, ISO27001, ISM3, AS/NZS4360 etc) and > how "commercial" operating systems have different risk profiles by > the way they are designed and operated. Also included is the > opportunity to hack into any of these OSs as they are installed as > plain vanilla installations with a web and mail server running, > patched according to the vendors' specifications. > > So, Solaris 10, Windows, Linux and HP/UX are regularly hacked and > trashed. The students all fail to get into z/OS, i5/OS and OpenVMS - > then, as part of their assignments, most arrive at the ame opinion > (even the Linux promoters), that OpenVMS seems really good - why > haven't they heard of it? > > So at least at this univiersity in my courses they get some exposure > and come to realise that the commerical world is not just > Windows/Linux/UNIX - perhaps HP could pay attention? The HP apologists would say, "Write a letter to Mark Hurd, HP's CEO." Maybe it's not a bad idea....... If you write what you said above - with the last sentence before your signature, "My students want to know why something so good as VMS is not advertised and marketed. Please advise me what I should tell them in this regard.Your response will determine whether we contine to feature VMS in our courses." -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:33:56 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <4666C5D4.7090208@comcast.net> John Santos wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 06/05/07 08:23, Main, Kerry wrote: >> [snip] >> >>> >>> fork (a UNIX way of >>> doing IO) >> >> >> >> Say what? >> > > I think what Kerry means :-) is VMS needs a UNIX way of doing I/O > in order to implement a UNIX style fork. (I.E. fork clones the > I/O environment so that the child process can access the FILEs > previously open by the parent process.) Yeah, that's the ticket! > A Unix fork copies an entire process, including those data structures that represent an open file. Unix couldn't work without fork. Every time you run a program Unix forks a new process to run it in. Unix does not have P0 and P1 space which lets VMS map DCL into P1 space while running your programs in P0. It's not clear to me why a VMS programmer should want/need a Unix style fork. If you really need a Unix environment, use Unix. FWIW, I believe that many or most of the useful Unix utilities can be, or already have been, ported to VMS. I have both grep and gawk for VMS as well as GVG Make. Make is already on my web page and I'll be glad to make grep and gawk available if anyone needs such things. There was a "tail" utility in the days before TYPE /TAIL was implemented. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:07:52 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/06/07 07:58, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: >> On 06/05/07 13:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> [snip] >>> All of which applies to BSD equally except that BSD had several years >>> headstart (including the development that continued despite the AT&T >>> lawsuit which everyone involved in the technical side of the game knew >>> was never going to go anywhere). The only thing Linux has that BSD >>> does not is marketing. And look at the difference in awareness and >>> interest. BSD's license is much more business friendly than the GPV. >> >> Two words: Unix Wars. > > People keep mentioning that but unless your a techie it really means > nothing. I *am* a techie, and I *do* remember when all the various vendors took BSD or licensed SVRx and "compatible" C & Unix became a mismash, and then there was the OSF, Unix International, etc, none of which really unified Unix. And while the Unix vendors were fighting, VMS slid and MSFT became unstoppably dominant. > There are currently three popular BSD distributions. How > many Linux distros are out there today? And anyone running commodity > COTS boxes is going to learn with very little research that FreeBSD > is the one that concentrated on and optimized for that platform. I remember when ftp.cdrom.com ran off a modestly powered FreeBSD box. Anyway, Linux has commercial products like Oracle and engineering CAD apps, important free packages like Sun Java (although compatibility modules might let it run on FreeBSD) and the drivers to get full usage of my NVIDIA video card. Overall, though, you won't hear me complaining because you run FreeBSD. > Now, > if your running 15 year old Sparc boxes...... NetBSD, anyone? :) Linux (Debian, specifically) will also run on most of those boxes. >>> BSD is stabler, more secure, more efficient and has more stuff that >>> was actually implemented correctly than Linux. And still businesses >>> are flocking to Linux and ignoring BSD. And the answer is, marketing. >>> Ask any CIO you know who is involved in one of these Linux migrations >>> why Linux and not BSD. The most likely answer will be, "What's BSD?" >>> Sure sounds like the same boat VMS is in to me. :-) >> And "all those eyes" are constantly looking at various pieces, >> saying, "hey, I can make that part 'better' (for some definition of >> 'better') or 'I've found a bug, here's a patch'". > > Huh?? I run FreeBSD here. I upgrade the OS pretty much every > summer cause that's free time in a school. I don't make major > changes during the school year. Some boxes, doing specific tasks, > haven't been upgraded, patched or otherwise changed in years. > If it doesn't affect us, I don't patch it!! Basicly, it is no > different than what is done with commercial stuff, except that > I tend to know sooner with BSD if there is a potential problem > than I would with Solaris, IRIX, HPUX or even VMS. This notion > that anyone not running VMS has to apply patches every day is, > was and always will be hogwash. I can't speak for Linux, but > BSD today is not all that different in that respect from any > commercial OS. All OSes need periodic fixes. And, contrary > to what some VMS bigots like to think, all software has bugs. > Some may lay unfound for years, or even decades, but they are > there. I only recently applied new patches to BSD 2.11 on my > PDP-11. :-) > >> You'd be stunned by the disagreements between major kernel >> developers on the linux-kernel mailing list (lkml). > > Actually, no I wouldn't. Children squabble all the time. Oh, you mean Theo de Raadt?? :0 >> But when >> someone brings a well-written (meaning: it follows Linus' coding >> standards) chunk of code to the table that implements a new feature >> (usually a driver) or replaces old code (and is demonstrably better >> (faster, simpler, uses less memory) it is accepted. > > And this is different from FreeBSD in what manner? We're superior, just.... because. But seriously: this quote is specifically about NetBSD, but also makes a similar comment regarding FreeBSD. http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2006/08/30/0016.html Partly due to lack of people, and partly due to a more corporate mentality, projects were often "locked". One person would say they were working on a project, and everyone else would be told to refer to them. Often these projects stagnated, or never progressed at all. If they did, the motivators were often very slow. As a result, many important projects have moved at a glacial pace, or never materialized at all. [snip] FreeBSD and XFree86, for example, have both forked successor projects (Dragonfly and X.org) for very similar reasons. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:09:35 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/05/07 23:55, John Santos wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 06/05/07 08:23, Main, Kerry wrote: >> [snip] >> >>> >>> fork (a UNIX way of >>> doing IO) >> >> >> Say what? >> > > I think what Kerry means :-) is VMS needs a UNIX way of doing I/O > in order to implement a UNIX style fork. (I.E. fork clones the > I/O environment so that the child process can access the FILEs > previously open by the parent process.) Yeah, that's the ticket! But I thought VMS was perfect? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:03:30 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <07060610033078_202002DA@antinode.org> From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > It's not clear to me why a VMS programmer should want/need a Unix style > fork. If you really need a Unix environment, use Unix. FWIW, I believe > that many or most of the useful Unix utilities can be, or already have > been, ported to VMS. Well, duh. If people are porting UNIX utilities to VMS, then it's just possible that those utilities are useful in a VMS environment. It's also fairly likely that, as written, those utilities expect to use fork(). Re-coding every one of these utilities to work around the lack of fork() is what turns a simple exercise into a project, and a project into a trial by ordeal. For example, one of those already-been-ported UNIX utilities is "tar". A modern GNU "tar" wants to use fork(). Go ahead, cite VMSTAR. I dare you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:28:59 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <4666D2BB.7070301@comcast.net> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > >>It's not clear to me why a VMS programmer should want/need a Unix style >>fork. If you really need a Unix environment, use Unix. FWIW, I believe >>that many or most of the useful Unix utilities can be, or already have >>been, ported to VMS. > > > Well, duh. If people are porting UNIX utilities to VMS, then it's > just possible that those utilities are useful in a VMS environment. > It's also fairly likely that, as written, those utilities expect to use > fork(). Re-coding every one of these utilities to work around the lack > of fork() is what turns a simple exercise into a project, and a project > into a trial by ordeal. > > For example, one of those already-been-ported UNIX utilities is > "tar". A modern GNU "tar" wants to use fork(). Go ahead, cite VMSTAR. > I dare you. All right! http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?VMSTAR Since VMS does not have "fork", it's obviously possible to write tar without it. A "modern" Gnu Tar? I don't know. I very seldom use tar for anything and when I do it's almost always on a Unix box! I've used VMSTAR but so long ago I no longer remember what I last used it for. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jun 2007 15:30:16 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5co287F2to986U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 06/06/07 07:58, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >>> On 06/05/07 13:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> [snip] >>>> All of which applies to BSD equally except that BSD had several years >>>> headstart (including the development that continued despite the AT&T >>>> lawsuit which everyone involved in the technical side of the game knew >>>> was never going to go anywhere). The only thing Linux has that BSD >>>> does not is marketing. And look at the difference in awareness and >>>> interest. BSD's license is much more business friendly than the GPV. > >> >>> Two words: Unix Wars. >> >> People keep mentioning that but unless your a techie it really means >> nothing. > > I *am* a techie, and I *do* remember when all the various vendors > took BSD or licensed SVRx and "compatible" C & Unix became a > mismash, and then there was the OSF, Unix International, etc, none > of which really unified Unix. Ancient history. And irrelevant to the discussion of current BSD vs. Linux. Considering how unlikely it is that any CIO today has ever heard of BSD it is even more unlikely that they know what the "Unix Wars" were. > > And while the Unix vendors were fighting, VMS slid and MSFT became > unstoppably dominant. And yet, Linux is rapidly moving into the datacenter. And the whole point of what I said was, "Why Linux? Why not BSD?" And the answer remains the same as the answer to. "Why not VMS?" > >> There are currently three popular BSD distributions. How >> many Linux distros are out there today? And anyone running commodity >> COTS boxes is going to learn with very little research that FreeBSD >> is the one that concentrated on and optimized for that platform. > > I remember when ftp.cdrom.com ran off a modestly powered FreeBSD box. I have been running this department off of modeswtly powered FreeBSD boxes for years. I ran a news server that actually made it into the top 100 (I don't remember how high it actually got but it was impressive considering my total lack of a budget to support it!) running FreeBSD on comodity boxes. > > Anyway, Linux has commercial products like Oracle and engineering > CAD apps, important free packages like Sun Java (although > compatibility modules might let it run on FreeBSD) and the drivers > to get full usage of my NVIDIA video card. Which comes back to the same issue. Why not FreeBSD? It is empirically provable that it is better, technically, than Linux. And the answer is, once agsain the same as why ISV's are leaving the VMS camp in favor of Linux. > > Overall, though, you won't hear me complaining because you run FreeBSD. Well, you certainly won't hear me complain. We once tried to use Linux to do the job because people wanted the more popular option. It took less than one semester to have all of them learn what a mistake Linux really was. We have never looked back and Linux will never have a place in our server farm as long as I am the Admin here. > >> Now, >> if your running 15 year old Sparc boxes...... > > NetBSD, anyone? :) > > Linux (Debian, specifically) will also run on most of those boxes. Of course it will, But if you are trying to set up an efficient operation running on commodity COTS x86 boxes why would you want to use something that has code in it targeted at other architectures. Give me the one optimized for my platform every time. > >>>> BSD is stabler, more secure, more efficient and has more stuff that >>>> was actually implemented correctly than Linux. And still businesses >>>> are flocking to Linux and ignoring BSD. And the answer is, marketing. >>>> Ask any CIO you know who is involved in one of these Linux migrations >>>> why Linux and not BSD. The most likely answer will be, "What's BSD?" >>>> Sure sounds like the same boat VMS is in to me. :-) >>> And "all those eyes" are constantly looking at various pieces, >>> saying, "hey, I can make that part 'better' (for some definition of >>> 'better') or 'I've found a bug, here's a patch'". >> >> Huh?? I run FreeBSD here. I upgrade the OS pretty much every >> summer cause that's free time in a school. I don't make major >> changes during the school year. Some boxes, doing specific tasks, >> haven't been upgraded, patched or otherwise changed in years. >> If it doesn't affect us, I don't patch it!! Basicly, it is no >> different than what is done with commercial stuff, except that >> I tend to know sooner with BSD if there is a potential problem >> than I would with Solaris, IRIX, HPUX or even VMS. This notion >> that anyone not running VMS has to apply patches every day is, >> was and always will be hogwash. I can't speak for Linux, but >> BSD today is not all that different in that respect from any >> commercial OS. All OSes need periodic fixes. And, contrary >> to what some VMS bigots like to think, all software has bugs. >> Some may lay unfound for years, or even decades, but they are >> there. I only recently applied new patches to BSD 2.11 on my >> PDP-11. :-) >> >>> You'd be stunned by the disagreements between major kernel >>> developers on the linux-kernel mailing list (lkml). >> >> Actually, no I wouldn't. Children squabble all the time. > > Oh, you mean Theo de Raadt?? :0 Yeah, but then he doesn't control FreeBSD, does he? > >>> But when >>> someone brings a well-written (meaning: it follows Linus' coding >>> standards) chunk of code to the table that implements a new feature >>> (usually a driver) or replaces old code (and is demonstrably better >>> (faster, simpler, uses less memory) it is accepted. >> >> And this is different from FreeBSD in what manner? > > We're superior, just.... because. > > But seriously: this quote is specifically about NetBSD, but also > makes a similar comment regarding FreeBSD. > > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2006/08/30/0016.html > Partly due to lack of people, and partly due to a more > corporate mentality, projects were often "locked". One > person would say they were working on a project, and > everyone else would be told to refer to them. Often these > projects stagnated, or never progressed at all. If they > did, the motivators were often very slow. As a result, > many important projects have moved at a glacial pace, or > never materialized at all. > [snip] > FreeBSD and XFree86, for example, have both forked successor > projects (Dragonfly and X.org) for very similar reasons. I sure don't see any stagnation in FreeBSD. I only upgrade once or at most twice a year (summer is primary, between Fall and Spring is an option if we really need to change for some reason) and it still usually leaves me behind a version or two. How often do commercial vendors release new versions of their OSes? Now, if you meant all those stupid little games and less useful (I will avoid calling them totally useless, but in the sense of running a server farm for a production environment, they are) programs, anything goes as they are not controlled by any central "authority". But, to reiterate the original theme, if marketing can make such a success out of a piece of crap like Linux, just think what it could, no would do for a gem like VMS. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:30:52 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/05/07 23:08, Gremlin wrote: > Hi Bill (and all) > > I run a postrgraduate course in (amongst other things) commercial operating > systems security. We cover (in some detail) z/OS, i5/OS, OpenVMS, HP/UX > 11i, Solaris 10, Windows Server and several Linuxes. This is a "hands on" > course demonstrating practical background, risks, vulnerabilities, > commercial considerations, standards and frameworks (SOX, HIPPA, ISO17799, > ISO27001, ISM3, AS/NZS4360 etc) and how "commercial" operating systems have > different risk profiles by the way they are designed and operated. Also > included is the opportunity to hack into any of these OSs as they are > installed as plain vanilla installations with a web and mail server running, > patched according to the vendors' specifications. > > So, Solaris 10, Windows, Linux and HP/UX are regularly hacked and trashed. > The students all fail to get into z/OS, i5/OS and OpenVMS - then, as part of > their assignments, most arrive at the ame opinion (even the Linux > promoters), that OpenVMS seems really good - why haven't they heard of it? Interesting, but doesn't mean much because we don't know how they are configured and what applications you run. telnetd? VMS is secure from the get-go, but Linux not so much. Is SELinux enabled? If so, then what profiles are enabled/created? (SELinux was designed to bring mainframe/VMS-style security to Linux.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:33:55 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <07060610335535_202002DA@antinode.org> From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?VMSTAR > > Since VMS does not have "fork", it's obviously possible to write tar > without it. A "modern" Gnu Tar? I don't know. I very seldom use tar > for anything and when I do it's almost always on a Unix box! I've used > VMSTAR but so long ago I no longer remember what I last used it for. For one thing, you could use it to unpack GNU utility source kits, but it can't do things like this: ALP2 $ vmstarx tfv tt_gnu_x.tar -rw-r--r-- 4/1 10 Jun 5 23:56:11 2007 tartest/long_file_01234567890 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678991234567899 91234567899123456789912345678991234567899123456789912345678991234567878123456787 8781234567878123456.dat lrw-r--r-- 4/1 0 Jun 5 23:56:12 2007 tartest/long_link_long_file_0 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 1234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789.lnk ---> long_file_01234567890123456789012345678901 23456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678991234567899912345678991234567899 123456789912345678991234567899123456789912345678781234567878781234567878123456.d at lrw-r--r-- 4/1 0 Jun 5 23:56:12 2007 tartest/long_link_short_file_ 01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789.lnk ---> short.dat -rw-r--r-- 4/1 11 Jun 5 17:38:12 2007 tartest/short.dat lrw-r--r-- 4/1 0 Jun 5 23:56:11 2007 tartest/short_link_long_file. lnk ---> long_file_01234567890123456789012345678901 23456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678991234567899912345678991234567899 123456789912345678991234567899123456789912345678781234567878781234567878123456.d at lrw-r--r-- 4/1 0 Jun 5 23:56:11 2007 tartest/short_link_short_file lnk ---> short.dat ALP2 $ .. because it can't handle names longer than 99 characters, and it can't handle symbolic links. It also can't do files bigger than 2GB, and it doesn't set the magic SQO bit, so it's not pleasant to use when extracting a large file. I also suspect that it's not so good with ODS5 extended file names, but I haven't looked too closely at that part yet. It also seems to create an archive with fixed permissions on the files (755) and directories (644), regardless of their original protections. (I'm sure I can find more if I look harder.) On the bright side, it is roughly twice as fast as the GNV port of GNU "tar" on the tests I ran, and I haven't found a good way to improve on that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:53:27 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/06/07 10:30, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: >> On 06/06/07 07:58, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> In article , >>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>> On 06/05/07 13:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>>> All of which applies to BSD equally except that BSD had several years >>>>> headstart (including the development that continued despite the AT&T >>>>> lawsuit which everyone involved in the technical side of the game knew >>>>> was never going to go anywhere). The only thing Linux has that BSD >>>>> does not is marketing. And look at the difference in awareness and >>>>> interest. BSD's license is much more business friendly than the GPV. >>>> Two words: Unix Wars. >>> People keep mentioning that but unless your a techie it really means >>> nothing. >> I *am* a techie, and I *do* remember when all the various vendors >> took BSD or licensed SVRx and "compatible" C & Unix became a >> mismash, and then there was the OSF, Unix International, etc, none >> of which really unified Unix. > > Ancient history. And irrelevant to the discussion of current BSD vs. > Linux. I think that it *is* relevant because it was the "business friendly" BSD license (which allows each company to keep it's own changes) that caused the Unix Wars in the first place. The (smart) big vendors remember these things. Counterintuitively, the "viral" GPL (which says, in essence, "freely you get other people's work, freely you must share your own work") ensures that the Unix Wars can not happen again. Thus, it's sort of a neutral platform where binary compatibility is almost guaranteed. And now both IBM & HPaq are selling boat-loads of Linux-installed servers & blades, making both very happy. IBM is probably also selling lots of Linux-running POWER systems in compute farms where AIX isn't needed. > Considering how unlikely it is that any CIO today has ever heard > of BSD it is even more unlikely that they know what the "Unix Wars" were. > > >> And while the Unix vendors were fighting, VMS slid and MSFT became >> unstoppably dominant. > > And yet, Linux is rapidly moving into the datacenter. And the whole > point of what I said was, "Why Linux? Why not BSD?" See the previous paragraphs regarding the BSD & GPL licenses. > And the answer > remains the same as the answer to. "Why not VMS?" Up-front costs and COTS hardware. >>> There are currently three popular BSD distributions. How >>> many Linux distros are out there today? And anyone running commodity >>> COTS boxes is going to learn with very little research that FreeBSD >>> is the one that concentrated on and optimized for that platform. >> I remember when ftp.cdrom.com ran off a modestly powered FreeBSD box. > > I have been running this department off of modeswtly powered FreeBSD > boxes for years. I ran a news server that actually made it into the > top 100 (I don't remember how high it actually got but it was impressive > considering my total lack of a budget to support it!) running FreeBSD > on comodity boxes. > >> Anyway, Linux has commercial products like Oracle and engineering >> CAD apps, important free packages like Sun Java (although >> compatibility modules might let it run on FreeBSD) and the drivers >> to get full usage of my NVIDIA video card. > > Which comes back to the same issue. Why not FreeBSD? It is empirically > provable that it is better, technically, than Linux. And the answer is, > once agsain the same as why ISV's are leaving the VMS camp in favor of > Linux. > >> Overall, though, you won't hear me complaining because you run FreeBSD. > > Well, you certainly won't hear me complain. We once tried to use Linux > to do the job because people wanted the more popular option. It took > less than one semester to have all of them learn what a mistake Linux > really was. We have never looked back and Linux will never have a > place in our server farm as long as I am the Admin here. I'd *REALLY* like to hear what the problem with Linux was. >>> Now, >>> if your running 15 year old Sparc boxes...... >> NetBSD, anyone? :) >> >> Linux (Debian, specifically) will also run on most of those boxes. > > Of course it will, But if you are trying to set up an efficient operation > running on commodity COTS x86 boxes why would you want to use something > that has code in it targeted at other architectures. Give me the one > optimized for my platform every time. And if you chose the losing platform... (Not that x86 will lose any time soon, but you get my point.) [snip] >>> >>>> You'd be stunned by the disagreements between major kernel >>>> developers on the linux-kernel mailing list (lkml). >>> Actually, no I wouldn't. Children squabble all the time. >> Oh, you mean Theo de Raadt?? :0 > > Yeah, but then he doesn't control FreeBSD, does he? He leads a BSD. >>>> But when >>>> someone brings a well-written (meaning: it follows Linus' coding >>>> standards) chunk of code to the table that implements a new feature >>>> (usually a driver) or replaces old code (and is demonstrably better >>>> (faster, simpler, uses less memory) it is accepted. >>> And this is different from FreeBSD in what manner? >> We're superior, just.... because. >> >> But seriously: this quote is specifically about NetBSD, but also >> makes a similar comment regarding FreeBSD. >> >> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2006/08/30/0016.html >> Partly due to lack of people, and partly due to a more >> corporate mentality, projects were often "locked". One >> person would say they were working on a project, and >> everyone else would be told to refer to them. Often these >> projects stagnated, or never progressed at all. If they >> did, the motivators were often very slow. As a result, >> many important projects have moved at a glacial pace, or >> never materialized at all. >> [snip] >> FreeBSD and XFree86, for example, have both forked successor >> projects (Dragonfly and X.org) for very similar reasons. > > I sure don't see any stagnation in FreeBSD. I only upgrade once or > at most twice a year (summer is primary, between Fall and Spring is > an option if we really need to change for some reason) and it still > usually leaves me behind a version or two. How often do commercial > vendors release new versions of their OSes? Now, if you meant all > those stupid little games and less useful (I will avoid calling them > totally useless, but in the sense of running a server farm for a > production environment, they are) programs, anything goes as they > are not controlled by any central "authority". > > But, to reiterate the original theme, if marketing can make such a > success out of a piece of crap like Linux, just think what it could, > no would do for a gem like VMS. If techies (not sheeple) really thought that Linux was a steaming pile of dung, it wouldn't have lasted this long. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:01:59 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/06/07 09:33, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [snip] > > It's not clear to me why a VMS programmer should want/need a Unix style > fork. If you really need a Unix environment, use Unix. FWIW, I believe > that many or most of the useful Unix utilities can be, or already have > been, ported to VMS. I have both grep and gawk for VMS as well as GVG > Make. Make is already on my web page and I'll be glad to make grep and > gawk available if anyone needs such things. There was a "tail" utility > in the days before TYPE /TAIL was implemented. I don't necessarily *want* Unix. But I *really* like the programming control structures in bash. On one line, you can whip out for-looping "if-then-else"ing ad-hoc utility that would require a 20 line script in DCL. (No, grep and gawk aren't installed on our production boxes. I wish they [or VMSized versions of them, and "cut" and "seq" came native with VMS.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:12:28 -0600 From: Jim Mehlhop Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: <4666A4AC.8070007@mehlhop.org> Thanks all. Knowing that there is one is a start, finding some like from Tom is great!! Jim Crabs wrote: > Jim Mehlhop wrote: > >> Anyone know of a particular Ethernet board with Thin Wire Coax (10MB) >> connectorr that will run on an Alpha?? > > DE450 > Has all three protocols, thin, thick & AUI. > Works on PWS's, should work on any Alpha server. > > I have a pile of them, glad to send you one if you'll pay for the > shipping. I'm in the Sacramento CA area. > > TomC > tccrab@(*ihatespam*)sunset.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:46:59 -0400 From: "Richard Whalen" Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: "Jim Mehlhop" wrote in message news:4666A4AC.8070007@mehlhop.org... > Thanks all. Knowing that there is one is a start, finding some like from > Tom is great!! > > Jim > > > Crabs wrote: >> Jim Mehlhop wrote: >> >>> Anyone know of a particular Ethernet board with Thin Wire Coax (10MB) >>> connectorr that will run on an Alpha?? >> >> DE450 >> Has all three protocols, thin, thick & AUI. >> Works on PWS's, should work on any Alpha server. >> >> I have a pile of them, glad to send you one if you'll pay for the >> shipping. I'm in the Sacramento CA area. >> >> TomC >> tccrab@(*ihatespam*)sunset.net We have DE435 boards on a number of our systems. They also offer all three connections. You use the Alpha's boot console to specify which one. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:55:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Jim Mehlhop wrote: >> Anyone know of a particular Ethernet board with Thin Wire Coax (10MB) >> connectorr that will run on an Alpha?? > > I would look at an outfit such as Black Box for a twisted pair to thin > wire coax adaptor. Don't use black box. There's no reason to pay 150 times list price for anything. You can stand alone media converters from allied telesyn. you may find them more reliable than a junk chinese hub as well. > > Finding a PCI board that supports coax is one thing. Ensuring it is > supported by VMS is another. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 15:08:14 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message news:f46ed8$m9j$1@reader2.panix.com... > Don't use black box. There's no reason to pay 150 times list price for > anything. You can stand alone media converters from allied telesyn. If you're lucky - the thinwire ones are discontinued; at least, I couldn't source any replacements last time I had some die on me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:13:19 -0600 From: Jim Mehlhop Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: <4666CF0F.7000904@qwest.net> Richard Whalen wrote: > "Jim Mehlhop" wrote in message > news:4666A4AC.8070007@mehlhop.org... > >>Thanks all. Knowing that there is one is a start, finding some like from >>Tom is great!! >> >>Jim >> >> >>Crabs wrote: >> >>>Jim Mehlhop wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Anyone know of a particular Ethernet board with Thin Wire Coax (10MB) >>>>connectorr that will run on an Alpha?? >>> >>>DE450 >>>Has all three protocols, thin, thick & AUI. >>>Works on PWS's, should work on any Alpha server. >>> >>>I have a pile of them, glad to send you one if you'll pay for the >>>shipping. I'm in the Sacramento CA area. >>> >>>TomC >>>tccrab@(*ihatespam*)sunset.net > > > We have DE435 boards on a number of our systems. They also offer all three > connections. > You use the Alpha's boot console to specify which one. > > How do you specify ThinWire? In my as1200 document it says you can but in the details it says you can P00>>> set ewa0_mode aui P00>>> set ewa0_mode auto-sense P00>>> set ewa0_mode twisted-pair P00>>> set ewa0_mode auto-negotiate I know you can also do P00>>> set ewa0_mode fast P00>>> set ewa0_mode fastfd Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:49:24 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Thin wire Coax Ethernet on Alpha Message-ID: Jim Mehlhop wrote in news:4666CF0F.7000904@qwest.net: > Richard Whalen wrote: >> "Jim Mehlhop" wrote in message >> news:4666A4AC.8070007@mehlhop.org... >> >>>Thanks all. Knowing that there is one is a start, finding some like >>>from Tom is great!! >>> >>>Jim >>> >>> >>>Crabs wrote: >>> >>>>Jim Mehlhop wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Anyone know of a particular Ethernet board with Thin Wire Coax >>>>>(10MB) connectorr that will run on an Alpha?? >>>> >>>>DE450 >>>>Has all three protocols, thin, thick & AUI. >>>>Works on PWS's, should work on any Alpha server. >>>> >>>>I have a pile of them, glad to send you one if you'll pay for the >>>>shipping. I'm in the Sacramento CA area. >>>> >>>>TomC >>>>tccrab@(*ihatespam*)sunset.net >> >> >> We have DE435 boards on a number of our systems. They also offer all >> three connections. >> You use the Alpha's boot console to specify which one. >> >> > How do you specify ThinWire? > > In my as1200 document it says you can but in the details it says you > can > > P00>>> set ewa0_mode aui > > P00>>> set ewa0_mode auto-sense > > P00>>> set ewa0_mode twisted-pair > > P00>>> set ewa0_mode auto-negotiate > > I know you can also do > > P00>>> set ewa0_mode fast > > P00>>> set ewa0_mode fastfd > > Jim In an older manual, I set you can specify: set ewa0_mode bnc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 01:41:38 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Message-ID: <1181119298.544562.168490@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Signe did explain this in one of the messages you referred to: "Whether they are "Integrity Ready" (ported) or "Integrity Certified" (have gone through a self certification process that includes a certification letter to HP), all of these ISV applications provide the building blocks for a robust customer solution. We will never have enough of them, but at least we do have a significant number of partners out there who have enough faith in the future of VMS to do their port and participate in our public database. " It doesn't explain what the certification letter to HP is (though I guess the email that I sent to Sue and which she forwarded to Signe about a product that I'm involved with would count). Whilst I don't know and haven't met a number of the people contributing to this thread, I can't help thinking that things have been taken out of context. Such is the nature of electronic communicaiton I guess? Steve On 6 Jun, 01:56, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1181089328.695994.265...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Sue writes: > > > > > > > > >On Jun 5, 2:05 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article <4665bd5...@news.langstoeger.at>, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > >> >In article <1181064128.626642.89...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinha...@yahoo.com" writes: > >> >>On Jun 5, 12:34 pm, t...@kednos.com wrote: > >> >>> > >Alphabetical listing of OpenVMS business partners and profiles > >> >>> > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/partners/index.html > > >> >>> I couldn't get that page to open up. > > >> >>It worked for me. Firefox 2.0.0.4 and Safari 2.0.4 (419.3) on Mac OS > >> >>X 10.4.8 > > >> >OpenVMS Website was down/unreachable today for hours. > >> >Network Switch again? > > >> Not a great accolade for HP networking equipment. I'm assuming HP would > >> use their own networking equipment; of course, I could be all wet though > >> too! > > >> -- > >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > >Brian is everything ok? You seem to be looking for issues. > > Sue, > > If _everything_ was OK, there'd be no issues for me to point out. ;) > > Today I asked what "Integrity Ready" and "Integrity Certified" meant. I > still don't know. What is an "Integrity Certification Letter"? > > I then pointed out that I have "Integrity Ready/Certified/Capable/Ported/ > Running/something-or-other-semantic" apps that are not listed on the page > pointed to by the link in your post. > > Later, I point out that I don't think having the VMS web site unavailable > says much for a company that is the business of selling business critical > hardware. I'm certain I'm not alone there. > > I don't think that my astute commentary is as derisive as most of the day > to day derision posted here. Your opinion to the contrary is welcome. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 03:27:41 -0700 From: Rozagy Subject: Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Message-ID: <1181125661.571715.285660@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jun 6, 2:28?am, David J Dachtera wrote: > sig...@gmail.com wrote: > > [snip] > > We welcome input from vocal customers and partners. Come on folks. Put > > your energies to positive use. > > A word about myself, by the way: I "suffer", if you want to call it that, fromAsperger'sSyndrome. It's considered a form of autism (I disagree). > > It means that I am rather like a mirror: I reflect reality accurately rather > than sugar-coating it or editing it for political purposes. > > Try not to take offense at what I say - one does not take offense at everyday > reality. Simply reflecting it should not be indictable, IMHO. > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemshttp://www.djesys.com/ I agree - Asperger's is NOT a form of Autism - it IS Autism in pure form, without mental retardation. It is an extreme form of male intelligence - hence the capasity for greatness (academically, technically and artistically). That's why there's a greater number of men who are born this way: it's only one step away on evolutionary ladder from a "normal" male. For an ASutistic woman - it's two steps away from a "normal" female" (that's why I've had most of my problems in life caused by "normal" females": they sense "different" in Autistic woman, epsecially the fact that we do not recognise social female hierarchy and don't take part in gossip and cattiness - tools of putting other females in "their lace" on social ladder. So they "gang up on us" meaning to "destroy". Women can be so much more viscious than men can, because as it currently stands in modern society, females are still being regarded "second class citizens" (even though on paper they are not - but reality check, anyone??? :-) And anyone who already feels insecure can be a far worse bully than a big strong man with muscles and social status to fall back on. It's a fact!!! That's why Autistic females commit suicide! Where the hell to we belong? Not with bitchy "ordinary" women. And not with men - because we're NOT men! Of course, one might say we're ALL HUMAN! But it's not enough, as a person with Asperger's so wants to BELONG - it's the drive for EVERYTHING we do in life and EVERYTHING we achieve academically, creatively and politically. Oh well, one has to "pay" for ones inborn capacity for brilliance and as long as human race benefits in the long run.... You can hate me for saying it and rush in to try to "put me in my place" by saying: who does she think she is..... Oh I know who I am and I am MERELY STATING FACTS. Nothing else. Nobody is "better" than anybody else. I may not be better at social graces and manipulating others like females are, but I may be better at my own little thing. But that doesn't make me or YOU - the neurotypical female - BETTER! Everybody is unique, everybody is equal!!! Born with nothing and will die with nothing! End of! And yeah, nearly forgot.... There's nothing "milder" about AS - TRY LIVING WITH IT, being compelled to tell the truth, the way it is, all your life dodging the blows of angry truth-avaiding NeuroTypicals... LOL :-)))))))))))))))))))))) David, go on being yourself and being an accurate mirror of reality. Someone has to. all the best to you and your family. Roza Artistic Autistic, www.myspace.com/rozagy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:35:45 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Message-ID: <00A68B8D.600E3EC7@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1181095050.228297.231360@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Sue writes: >{...snip...} > >One of the Partners sent me the following >>From the top of the cited web page "Following is a list of featured >OpenVMS partners. This list includes partners that have ported their >applications to HP Integrity servers (Integrity ready) and partners >that have submitted certification letters (Integrity certified)." I read that. I didn't know about the "Certified". So, if I have an application that I've ported to Itanium, it is Integrity ready. If I file a form with HP stating that fact, it is Integrity certified. Seems simple enough. >There's a Word document the HP DSPP folks want to have extracted, >signed by a corporate officer, and faxed to some random part of HP. >Faxed twice a year, IIRC. "There's a Word document" which means that none of my products will ever become Integrity certified. Should this concern me? Is there a difference between ready and certified in a customer's eyes? >That's the entirety of the difference between "ready" and "certified". Thanks. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:42:17 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Message-ID: <00A68B8E.49A6FBB7@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1181119298.544562.168490@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk writes: > > >Signe did explain this in one of the messages you referred to: > >"Whether they are "Integrity Ready" (ported) or "Integrity >Certified" (have gone through a self certification process that >includes a certification letter to HP), all of these ISV applications >provide the building blocks for a robust customer solution. We will >never have enough of them, but at least we do have a significant >number of partners out there who have enough faith in the future of >VMS to do their port and participate in our public database. " Yes but this "self certification" process is vague. No pointer to any URL explaining it and no details on the certification letter. >It doesn't explain what the certification letter to HP is (though I >guess the email that I sent to Sue and which she forwarded to Signe >about a product that I'm involved with would count). Dunno? That is what I would like to know. >Whilst I don't know and haven't met a number of the people >contributing to this thread, I can't help thinking that things have >been taken out of context. Such is the nature of electronic >communicaiton I guess? One thing that tends to take things out of context in usenet is the practice of top-posting. Please don't. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:19:35 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Message-ID: In article <00A68B8D.600E3EC7@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1181095050.228297.231360@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Sue > writes: [...snip...] > > > > >There's a Word document the HP DSPP folks want to have extracted, > >signed by a corporate officer, and faxed to some random part of HP. > >Faxed twice a year, IIRC. > > "There's a Word document" which means that none of my products will > ever become Integrity certified. Should this concern me? Is there > a difference between ready and certified in a customer's eyes? > If it's to be signed, then surely a hard copy* of the letter will suffice. (* or .PS or .PDF?) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:22:46 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS Update Monday June 4th Message-ID: In article <37b37$46662ce9$cef8887a$20827@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: > Sue wrote: > > > Did you even see the part about joining the DEC web site? > > The one about http://www.decedout.org that invites people to join it, > even if they are not ex-dec employees ? No, I didn't see it. :-) Membership appears to be for US and Canadian residents only. Is there any equivalent organisation for the rest of the world? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 08:13:42 +0200 From: "Michel HERRSCHER" Subject: Re: [OT] 6-JUN-1944 Message-ID: Dans un message Didier Morandi disait : > Thank you all. > > Didier > (French) > > --- > You like Paint Ball? > Discover Airsoft: www.airsoftlabs.fr Agree too -- Michel HERRSCHER ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.308 ************************