INFO-VAX Mon, 28 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 291 Contents: Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Hobbyist Licenses for ISV Layered Products Re: Hobbyist Licenses for ISV Layered Products Re: Hobbyist Licenses for ISV Layered Products Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out RE: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out RE: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:42:18 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Message-ID: <4659d10b$0$21924$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> wrote in message news:00A68356.BC175337@SendSpamHere.ORG... > In article <4658b317$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" > writes: >> >> >> >> wrote in message >>news:00A6829F.8614E00E@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>> In article <46575c9e$0$21925$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. >>> Dweeb" >>> writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>>> In article <46560936$0$7604$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. >>>>> Dweeb" writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> We are evaluation a product called Active Batch >>>>>> http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/mop/mop_partner_product_detail_IDX/1,1331,5496,00.html >>>>>> for use in our Win2003AS environment. It all looks very familiar, >>>>>> like a graphical front end to the VMS queue manager, with concepts I >>>>>> know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Are there any users of the product here who would like to offer me >>>>>> the benefit of their experience with the product and equally >>>>>> importantly, their experiences when dealing with the company for >>>>>> support etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Dweeb >>>>> >>>>> I wouldn't deal with the Active Batch people even if they gave me free >>>>> Active blow-jobs every hour on the hour with double-suck on holidays >>>>> and >>>>> weekends! >>>> >>>> >>>>If you would care to elaborate on that offline, I would be interested to >>>>know why. >>> >>> You know where to find me (see below). >>> >>> -- >> >>I tried that but it bounced. >> >>Dweeb > > I don't see anything in the logs that looks like dweeb.net. > > Can you tell me the time in the header of the bounceback message? > For obvious reasons I have removed my email from below. Reporting-MTA: dns; cicero1.cybercity.dk X-Postfix-Queue-ID: E8BA6664E5F X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; somespamemail@post.cybercity.dk Arrival-Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:05:04 +0200 (CEST) Final-Recipient: rfc822; VAXman@TMESIS.COM Original-Recipient: rfc822;VAXman@TMESIS.COM Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 Remote-MTA: dns; mail.TMESIS.COM Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 Programmed rejection for source host/address. > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:43:41 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Message-ID: <4659d15f$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> "Dr. Dweeb" wrote in message news:4659d10b$0$21924$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk... > > wrote in message > news:00A68356.BC175337@SendSpamHere.ORG... >> In article <4658b317$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" >> writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> wrote in message >>>news:00A6829F.8614E00E@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>>> In article <46575c9e$0$21925$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. >>>> Dweeb" >>>> writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>>>> In article <46560936$0$7604$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. >>>>>> Dweeb" writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Folks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are evaluation a product called Active Batch >>>>>>> http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/mop/mop_partner_product_detail_IDX/1,1331,5496,00.html >>>>>>> for use in our Win2003AS environment. It all looks very familiar, >>>>>>> like a graphical front end to the VMS queue manager, with concepts I >>>>>>> know. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are there any users of the product here who would like to offer me >>>>>>> the benefit of their experience with the product and equally >>>>>>> importantly, their experiences when dealing with the company for >>>>>>> support etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Dweeb >>>>>> >>>>>> I wouldn't deal with the Active Batch people even if they gave me >>>>>> free >>>>>> Active blow-jobs every hour on the hour with double-suck on holidays >>>>>> and >>>>>> weekends! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>If you would care to elaborate on that offline, I would be interested >>>>>to >>>>>know why. >>>> >>>> You know where to find me (see below). >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>>I tried that but it bounced. >>> >>>Dweeb >> >> I don't see anything in the logs that looks like dweeb.net. >> >> Can you tell me the time in the header of the bounceback message? >> > > For obvious reasons I have removed my email from below. > > Reporting-MTA: dns; cicero1.cybercity.dk > X-Postfix-Queue-ID: E8BA6664E5F > X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; somespamemail@post.cybercity.dk > Arrival-Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 21:05:04 +0200 (CEST) > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; VAXman@TMESIS.COM > Original-Recipient: rfc822;VAXman@TMESIS.COM > Action: failed > Status: 5.0.0 > Remote-MTA: dns; mail.TMESIS.COM > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 Programmed rejection for source host/address. FU*****CK I forgot to remove yours before I sent - I am a moron - sorry > >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:32:21 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Message-ID: <00A683FC.AE7D57FC@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <4659d10b$0$21924$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: {...snip...} >>>Dweeb >> >> I don't see anything in the logs that looks like dweeb.net. >> >> Can you tell me the time in the header of the bounceback message? >> > >For obvious reasons I have removed my email from below. I think I have it. Try sending again. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 21:58:50 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Message-ID: In article <4659d15f$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > > For obvious reasons I have removed my email from below. > FU*****CK I forgot to remove yours before I sent - I am a moron - sorry You should be able tp delete it from Google Groups so that it doesn't hang around forever. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 21:49:30 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Active Batch from Advanced Systems Concepts Message-ID: <465A433A.21E4EEBC@spam.comcast.net> VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > In article <4659d10b$0$21924$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > {...snip...} > >>>Dweeb > >> > >> I don't see anything in the logs that looks like dweeb.net. > >> > >> Can you tell me the time in the header of the bounceback message? > >> > > > >For obvious reasons I have removed my email from below. > > I think I have it. Try sending again. That's the same message I was getting when everything I sent you from both work and home was being bounced. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 15:33:55 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: May 27, 2007 12:11 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > On 05/27/07 09:35, Main, Kerry wrote: > [snip] > > > > And we ignore that enthusiasts have to eat and to eat they need > > to make money. > > > >> (we ignore the fact that cars require materials per copy, > >> because software does not) > >> > > > > Software requires time and skilled resources. Both are limited > > resources. As the old saying goes - "Linux is free as long as you > > value your time as free as well." >=20 > Unadulterated hog poop. There's a whole lot of paid worker bees in > there, including some from your own company. >=20 You missed the point. I was referring to the *maint* of Linux (and Windows) environments. Of course there are paid folks creating Linux from many different sources. > http://lwn.net/Articles/222773/ >=20 > Top lines changed by employer > (Unknown) 66154 19.0% > Red Hat 44527 12.8% > (None) 38099 11.0% > IBM 25244 7.3% > Astaro 15306 4.4% > Linux Foundation 13638 3.9% > Qumranet 12108 3.5% > Novell 11930 3.4% > Intel 11652 3.4% > SANPeople 9888 2.8% > NetXen 9607 2.8% > Sony 8497 2.4% > Broadcom 8349 2.4% > Tensilica 8195 2.4% > Nokia 5581 1.6% > MontaVista 4394 1.3% > Uni. Aberdeen 4324 1.2% > LWN.net 3975 1.1% > Secretlab 3370 1.0% > HP 3211 0.9% >=20 > [snip] >=20 > > I would be willing to bet that a large majority of IT shops today > > have only a small fraction of the applicable (after review) RH > > Linux security patches identified at the following RH site > > applied to all their Dev/QA/Test/Prod systems. > > > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/ [click on > > thread for each month and add them up - 34 security patches so > > far in May 2007.. 34!!!] >=20 > Not long. >=20 > Is gimp installed on my server? No. > Is vixie-cron installed? Maybe. > Is Evolution installed? No. > Is libpng installed? Maybe, probably not. > Is squirrelmail installed? Maybe, probably not. > Is bluez-utils installed? No. > Is samba installed? Maybe. > Is freeradius installed? No. > Is php installed? Maybe. >=20 > That took me 3 minutes, most of it typing. It would take me less > time to eyeball-scan the list for my server's relevant apps. >=20 Ok, so put your self in the position of a typical Customer who has 100+ small Linux and Windows servers to manage. They are running a mix of RH Linux ES3, ES4 and even ES5 as well as a number of current and legacy versions of RH Linux WS. Some are managed by the same group - others are self managed by developers who think central IT do not know what they are doing. On top of this, like all well run IT shops with important applications, they need to test their Apps before they release OS patches. Now, how do you propose to handle this environment - and this is very typical. > > Case in point - if you have RH Linux systems - have you reviewed > > the 34 security patches released this month to see if they apply > > to your environment? > > > > At what point does someone wake up and say "we can not afford > > this platform!!" >=20 > As someone who has used Linux for 7 years, and VMS for 16, I've got > to say that your arguments just don't hold water. >=20 > Ron And as someone who has extensive experience (25+) in large multi-vendor, multi-platform data centers, perhaps you have only dealt with some small server environments (less than 20 perhaps?). If you have experience in large DC's - how do you recommend Cust's continually test their app's and keep all these different Linux versions current with all of the 5-20 security patches per month?=20 I just do not see a lot of practical experience in what you are stating when you look at how large DC's operate today.=20 Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 16:13:30 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <_vm6i.168407$nh4.140265@newsfe20.lga> On 05/27/07 14:33, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: May 27, 2007 12:11 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >> >> On 05/27/07 09:35, Main, Kerry wrote: >> [snip] >>> And we ignore that enthusiasts have to eat and to eat they need >>> to make money. >>> >>>> (we ignore the fact that cars require materials per copy, >>>> because software does not) >>>> >>> Software requires time and skilled resources. Both are limited >>> resources. As the old saying goes - "Linux is free as long as you >>> value your time as free as well." >> Unadulterated hog poop. There's a whole lot of paid worker bees in >> there, including some from your own company. >> > > You missed the point. I was referring to the *maint* of Linux (and > Windows) environments. Of course there are paid folks creating Linux > from many different sources. Oh, ok. Still, "Linux is free" is a straw man that should have been burned years ago. Even the GPL explicitly states that you shouldn't just throw up your code on expensive bandwidth, and even "offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee". Freedom of speech and freedom to look at and modify the code is primary. How many times on this list have you seen "help! my data is locked up in this undocumented format from 1982 and the company who wrote the s/w is long gone!" Having the code gives you at least a *fighting* chance at retrieving your old data. Free as in beer is a nice, but secondary, artifact. And serves to spread the pollen, like MSFT turning a blind eye to piracy for 25 years. >> http://lwn.net/Articles/222773/ >> >> Top lines changed by employer >> (Unknown) 66154 19.0% >> Red Hat 44527 12.8% >> (None) 38099 11.0% >> IBM 25244 7.3% >> Astaro 15306 4.4% >> Linux Foundation 13638 3.9% >> Qumranet 12108 3.5% >> Novell 11930 3.4% >> Intel 11652 3.4% >> SANPeople 9888 2.8% >> NetXen 9607 2.8% >> Sony 8497 2.4% >> Broadcom 8349 2.4% >> Tensilica 8195 2.4% >> Nokia 5581 1.6% >> MontaVista 4394 1.3% >> Uni. Aberdeen 4324 1.2% >> LWN.net 3975 1.1% >> Secretlab 3370 1.0% >> HP 3211 0.9% >> >> [snip] >> >>> I would be willing to bet that a large majority of IT shops today >>> have only a small fraction of the applicable (after review) RH >>> Linux security patches identified at the following RH site >>> applied to all their Dev/QA/Test/Prod systems. >>> >>> https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/ [click on >>> thread for each month and add them up - 34 security patches so >>> far in May 2007.. 34!!!] >> Not long. >> >> Is gimp installed on my server? No. >> Is vixie-cron installed? Maybe. >> Is Evolution installed? No. >> Is libpng installed? Maybe, probably not. >> Is squirrelmail installed? Maybe, probably not. >> Is bluez-utils installed? No. >> Is samba installed? Maybe. >> Is freeradius installed? No. >> Is php installed? Maybe. >> >> That took me 3 minutes, most of it typing. It would take me less >> time to eyeball-scan the list for my server's relevant apps. >> > > Ok, so put your self in the position of a typical Customer who has 100+ > small Linux and Windows servers to manage. They are running a mix of RH > Linux ES3, ES4 and even ES5 as well as a number of current and legacy > versions of RH Linux WS. The same way he upgrades Windows? No, just kidding. > Some are managed by the same group - others are self managed by > developers who think central IT do not know what they are doing. Well, heck, that's his problem. Let him run "yum update". > On top of this, like all well run IT shops with important applications, > they need to test their Apps before they release OS patches. > > Now, how do you propose to handle this environment - and this is very > typical. See below. >>> Case in point - if you have RH Linux systems - have you reviewed >>> the 34 security patches released this month to see if they apply >>> to your environment? >>> >>> At what point does someone wake up and say "we can not afford >>> this platform!!" >> As someone who has used Linux for 7 years, and VMS for 16, I've got >> to say that your arguments just don't hold water. >> >> Ron > > And as someone who has extensive experience (25+) in large multi-vendor, > multi-platform data centers, perhaps you have only dealt with some small > server environments (less than 20 perhaps?). > > If you have experience in large DC's - how do you recommend Cust's > continually test their app's and keep all these different Linux versions > current with all of the 5-20 security patches per month? > > I just do not see a lot of practical experience in what you are stating > when you look at how large DC's operate today. I'd start by writing (in Perl or Python) a script to: 1) scrape the relevant errata page, grabbing only packages since you last upgraded, 2) examine the packages installed on that system, 3) compare the two sets, 4) display a list of relevant packages sorted by priority. If you've got 100 Linux boxes, they're each probably dedicated to a single task (or are all clones like in a scaled-out web "server"), which means that each month's errata list per machine is pretty small. KISS. If you've got 100 servers, they shouldn't be loaded up with unnecessary packages. And I'd have a real heart-to-heart about the purpose of having 100 servers running at a load of 0.1, rather than combining them into a dozen big DL385s. Management might *want* a bunch of "little eggs", since if one fails, it only takes down 1% of your service instead of 12.5% if a DL385 rolls over. Like what happened when an HP field tech jiggled the wrong cable on a running Alpha and crashed the whole schmeer, crapping out a mirror set and causing us to restore a large Rdb database from tape. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:41:55 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Sun, 27 May 2007 06:30:32 -0700, Dan Foster wrote: > > > In article , FredK > > wrote: > >>> > >>> Screens are getter wider faster than they are getting taller, so I > >>> think > >>> 1680 x 1050 is pretty common now in monitors bigger than 20". > >> > >> Sure. The flat panel I am using right now for example is 1920x1200. > >> > >> It is the 1050 that is the oddball number - if they were trying to > >> build a > >> HD panel you would think it would be 1080. > > > > Google search results for 'lcd resolution 1680x1050' returns about > > 463,000 hits for the English language alone. > > > > I'm typing this on a 1680x1050 19" widescreen LCD monitor. Saw quite a > > few others when researching, pre-purchase. > > > > 1680x1050 comes out to a 1.6:1 ratio, or, 8:5, as does the 1920x1200 > > that you pointed out. I suppose the lower resolution is a more commonly > > manufactured and sold one, perhaps? > > Is it coincidental that 1050 = 2 x 525 ? > > And 8:5 would accommodate 16:9. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 11:25:18 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Hobbyist Licenses for ISV Layered Products Message-ID: Hi, We're in the process of coming up with a Hobbyist License agreement for Tier3/hotTIP and was wondering if someone who's already created a Hobbyist License for a third-party product could answer a couple of questions: - - It appears that it is usual to piggy-back the agreement on the Decus/Encompass/HP-VMS hobbyist license, is that correct? Is having a VMS Hobbyist agreement normally a pre-condition for issuing a hobbyist license for a third-party product? - If so then how is compliance achieved? Using LMF to check for a single OPENVMS-HOBBYIST PAK? - Is the issuing of licenses coordinated? Decus/Montagar shouldering the burden for all licenses? - Where can I get a copy of the exact wording of your Hobbyist License Agreement? (I have a copy of the old "COMPAQ HOBBY LICENSE AGREEMENT For OpenVMS" the T's & C's of which appear to be mirrored in other ISV agreements. Is this the norm?) I have sent e-mails to David Cathay and Hunter Goatley and am yet to hear back, but am happy to hear from anyone with experience in such matters. Cheers Richard Maher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:43:13 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licenses for ISV Layered Products Message-ID: <465A4FD1.2F25054E@spam.comcast.net> Richard Maher wrote: > > Hi, > > We're in the process of coming up with a Hobbyist License agreement for > Tier3/hotTIP and was wondering if someone who's already created a Hobbyist > License for a third-party product could answer a couple of questions: - > > - It appears that it is usual to piggy-back the agreement on the > Decus/Encompass/HP-VMS hobbyist license, is that correct? Is having a VMS > Hobbyist agreement normally a pre-condition for issuing a hobbyist license > for a third-party product? > > - If so then how is compliance achieved? Using LMF to check for a single > OPENVMS-HOBBYIST PAK? > > - Is the issuing of licenses coordinated? Decus/Montagar shouldering the > burden for all licenses? > > - Where can I get a copy of the exact wording of your Hobbyist License > Agreement? (I have a copy of the old "COMPAQ HOBBY LICENSE AGREEMENT For > OpenVMS" the T's & C's of which appear to be mirrored in other ISV > agreements. Is this the norm?) > > I have sent e-mails to David Cathay and Hunter Goatley and am yet to hear > back, but am happy to hear from anyone with experience in such matters. Register for a Multinet Hobbyist License (you're under no obligation to download/run Multinet, of course) and view their T&C. Also, if you do that, you'll note that PSC uses the hobbyist's VMS PAK checksum to verify licensability. Now, you'll still need to contact Hunter, as I've no idea how THAT works. Beyond that, I'm fairly sure that Multinet only checks for a valid MULTINET license. (Multinet is Multinet is Multinet ... there is no "hobbyist version"; although if you do sign up for the hobbyist license you gain access to an Internet download (.ZIP) of Multinet - the patch site is freely accessible.) I'm not sure if you're American - this weekend is our Memorial Day to honor our Veterans, past and present. So, many folks are focusing on family gatherings and such this weekend and some may be taking a few days off. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 22:55:47 -0500 From: Dan Foster Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licenses for ISV Layered Products Message-ID: In article , Richard Maher wrote: > > - Where can I get a copy of the exact wording of your Hobbyist License > Agreement? (I have a copy of the old "COMPAQ HOBBY LICENSE AGREEMENT > For OpenVMS" the T's & C's of which appear to be mirrored in other ISV > agreements. Is this the norm?) http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/register_license.html -Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:43:59 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4cl6i.7903$gM1.5288@newsfe21.lga> On 05/27/07 11:15, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: May 27, 2007 11:47 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> >> On Mon, 21 May 2007 21:59:12 -0400, Main, Kerry wrote: >> [snip] >>>> The big question is whether Oracle will succeed in making Linux a >>>> serious platform, acceptable to banks for serious applications. >>> mmm... with 5-20 security patches released each and every month? >>> >> [snip] >> >> There were 72 *bug* fixes to RHAS4 between 01-DEC-2006 and 30-APR- >> 2007. >> 50 were against packages that would typically sit on a server, the >> rest on >> client s/w. Not all of those 50 will be installed at every site. >> >> In that same span, there were 46 security patches: >> LOW MODERATE IMPORTANT CRITICAL >> --- -------- --------- -------- >> DESKTOP: 0 7 4 11 >> SERVER: 3 12 8 1 >> >> So, we see *one* critical server-related security patch in 6 months. >> Not >> bad, in my estimation. >> > > Nice try, but the patches listed on the RH security web site are > *security* patches - not bug fixes (although they do bundle fixes with > their security fixes from what I can tell). https://www.redhat.com/security/updates/ https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/rhel4as-errata.html Click a button to filter by All, Security, Bug fixes, Enhancements. Click another button to sort by date, severity, etc. > An actual tally for each month: > May 2007 - 34 > April 2007 - 17 > March 2007 - 19 > February 2007 - 19 > January 2007 - 13 (good month - *only* 13 security patches..) > > Total = 102 *security* not "bug" patches. > > And keep in mind that many (most?) of the security fixes they rate in > applications as low, moderate etc, can result in elevated security > priv's and/or the ability to access system protected data, so imho, that > is pretty critical. > > Keep in mind that most Cust environments do not have just one version of > Linux. They have ES3, ES4, ES5 and various WS versions as well, then > that means the Operations folks need to track what apps are running on > what servers and then map out what security patches to apply to what > systems. You don't seem to know very much about Linux package management. If you are a good sysadmin and have only installed the packages necessary for your application, then a single "yum update" command on your test box downloads all the *relevant* patch packages and installs them. When you are satisfied that the patches don't hose your system and can schedule an app downtime, run "yum update" again. > Does this not sound like a lot of work? > > (and this does not even discuss the re-cert and testing efforts of their > App's with these monthly security patches) > >> 10 various feature bugs per month, and 5 various security bugs per >> month. >> When you consider that there are pushing 8000 (or more?) packages in >> Red >> Hat (and 10000 in Debian), that's just not too shabby. >> > > Looks like a hackers dream world to me. You sound jealous. Most people in this group would love for VMS to have that many applications. > Since it is very difficult for the Operations to keep up with all these > security patches in all of their Dev / QA / Test / Prod environments, > corp folks either ignore the patches and hope no one attacks them > (remember internal users are biggest threat) or they arrange to set > aside time to test their business app's against the monthly security > patches which significantly reduces the resources available to do normal > Dev/ Test / QA testing for new App functionality requests. Only if you install a kitchen sink install. > So, these systems go unpatched for extended periods and hackers > (external or internal) are left to do what they want since they know > exactly the vulnerabilities they can capitalize on. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 2007 15:28:21 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <6gsmflzMf8hf@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <4cl6i.7903$gM1.5288@newsfe21.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > If you are a good sysadmin and have only installed the packages > necessary for your application, then a single "yum update" command > on your test box downloads all the *relevant* patch packages and > installs them. When you are satisfied that the patches don't hose > your system and can schedule an app downtime, run "yum update" again. So what is the syntax to switch from: "all the *relevant* patch packages" to "all the *relevant* patch packages as of the prior date" so that the only patch packages installed are those that were tested ? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 16:57:03 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: May 27, 2007 3:44 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > On 05/27/07 11:15, Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > >> Sent: May 27, 2007 11:47 AM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > >> > >> On Mon, 21 May 2007 21:59:12 -0400, Main, Kerry wrote: > >> [snip] > >>>> The big question is whether Oracle will succeed in making Linux a > >>>> serious platform, acceptable to banks for serious applications. > >>> mmm... with 5-20 security patches released each and every month? > >>> > >> [snip] > >> > >> There were 72 *bug* fixes to RHAS4 between 01-DEC-2006 and 30-APR- > >> 2007. > >> 50 were against packages that would typically sit on a server, the > >> rest on > >> client s/w. Not all of those 50 will be installed at every site. > >> > >> In that same span, there were 46 security patches: > >> LOW MODERATE IMPORTANT CRITICAL > >> --- -------- --------- -------- > >> DESKTOP: 0 7 4 11 > >> SERVER: 3 12 8 1 > >> > >> So, we see *one* critical server-related security patch in 6 > months. > >> Not > >> bad, in my estimation. > >> > > > > Nice try, but the patches listed on the RH security web site are > > *security* patches - not bug fixes (although they do bundle fixes > with > > their security fixes from what I can tell). >=20 > https://www.redhat.com/security/updates/ > https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/rhel4as-errata.html >=20 > Click a button to filter by All, Security, Bug fixes, Enhancements. > Click another button to sort by date, severity, etc. >=20 > > An actual tally for each month: > > May 2007 - 34 > > April 2007 - 17 > > March 2007 - 19 > > February 2007 - 19 > > January 2007 - 13 (good month - *only* 13 security patches..) > > > > Total =3D 102 *security* not "bug" patches. > > > > And keep in mind that many (most?) of the security fixes they rate > in > > applications as low, moderate etc, can result in elevated security > > priv's and/or the ability to access system protected data, so imho, > that > > is pretty critical. > > > > Keep in mind that most Cust environments do not have just one > version of > > Linux. They have ES3, ES4, ES5 and various WS versions as well, then > > that means the Operations folks need to track what apps are running > on > > what servers and then map out what security patches to apply to > what > > systems. >=20 > You don't seem to know very much about Linux package management. >=20 Don't have to. An OS is an OS is an OS. Security patches are security patches. They are not like bug fixes which you can decide to do when you feel like it. Most large shops do not want to run exposed when there are known security patches available. The risk to their business is to large. Nothing to do with OpenVMS or Linux or Windows for that matter. The challenge with Linux (and Windows) is the sheer volume of monthly security patches and the impact they have on Operations and QA/Testing is mind boggling. That is experience talking vs. "ignore the faults, because I can manage my own small little world just fine, therefore all those other large shops struggling with little things like no App downtime, strict revision and config management and App re-cert testing processes just do not know what they are doing .." > If you are a good sysadmin and have only installed the packages > necessary for your application, then a single "yum update" command > on your test box downloads all the *relevant* patch packages and > installs them. When you are satisfied that the patches don't hose > your system and can schedule an app downtime, run "yum update" again. >=20 So are you saying that this is what a med shop must do every month for the 100+ Linux servers running all different versions of Linux? And what do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns to apply these security patches? > > Does this not sound like a lot of work? > > > > (and this does not even discuss the re-cert and testing efforts of > their > > App's with these monthly security patches) > > > >> 10 various feature bugs per month, and 5 various security bugs per > >> month. > >> When you consider that there are pushing 8000 (or more?) packages > in > >> Red > >> Hat (and 10000 in Debian), that's just not too shabby. > >> > > > > Looks like a hackers dream world to me. >=20 > You sound jealous. Most people in this group would love for VMS to > have that many applications. >=20 Yeah right.=20 How about just trying to put some reality into all of the industry hype? Can anyone here imagine telling existing OpenVMS Customers that 5-20 OS security patches per month is ok and just part of normal business operations so get used to it? Think NASDAQ would think this is acceptable? Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with understanding the real Operations challenges when compared to more enterprise class platforms. > > Since it is very difficult for the Operations to keep up with all > these > > security patches in all of their Dev / QA / Test / Prod > environments, > > corp folks either ignore the patches and hope no one attacks them > > (remember internal users are biggest threat) or they arrange to set > > aside time to test their business app's against the monthly security > > patches which significantly reduces the resources available to do > normal > > Dev/ Test / QA testing for new App functionality requests. >=20 > Only if you install a kitchen sink install. >=20 And what do you think large companies use for their standard OS versions? Do you think they want 20+ different config's running all across their 100+ Linux servers? > > So, these systems go unpatched for extended periods and hackers > > (external or internal) are left to do what they want since they know > > exactly the vulnerabilities they can capitalize on. >=20 > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA >=20 > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 16:27:49 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 05/27/07 15:28, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <4cl6i.7903$gM1.5288@newsfe21.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > >> If you are a good sysadmin and have only installed the packages >> necessary for your application, then a single "yum update" command >> on your test box downloads all the *relevant* patch packages and >> installs them. When you are satisfied that the patches don't hose >> your system and can schedule an app downtime, run "yum update" again. > > So what is the syntax to switch from: > > "all the *relevant* patch packages" > > to > > "all the *relevant* patch packages as of the prior date" > > so that the only patch packages installed are those that were tested ? Well, you're only testing the patches* for the packages installed on that box, no? And the package manager "knows" if you've already installed a patch and if there are or aren't any updates for a given package. And you can always enumerate specific packages if you don't want to install every relevant package. And since you've only installed the bare minimum of packages on your server (who needs a GUI on a server, anyway??), the list will always be minimal. Or am I misunderstanding you. * Calling them patches is a fiction. They are full-blown updated packages. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 16:47:35 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 05/27/07 15:57, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: May 27, 2007 3:44 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> >> On 05/27/07 11:15, Main, Kerry wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >>>> Sent: May 27, 2007 11:47 AM >>>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>> Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>>> >>>> On Mon, 21 May 2007 21:59:12 -0400, Main, Kerry wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>>>> The big question is whether Oracle will succeed in making Linux a >>>>>> serious platform, acceptable to banks for serious applications. >>>>> mmm... with 5-20 security patches released each and every month? >>>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>> There were 72 *bug* fixes to RHAS4 between 01-DEC-2006 and 30-APR- >>>> 2007. >>>> 50 were against packages that would typically sit on a server, the >>>> rest on >>>> client s/w. Not all of those 50 will be installed at every site. >>>> >>>> In that same span, there were 46 security patches: >>>> LOW MODERATE IMPORTANT CRITICAL >>>> --- -------- --------- -------- >>>> DESKTOP: 0 7 4 11 >>>> SERVER: 3 12 8 1 >>>> >>>> So, we see *one* critical server-related security patch in 6 >> months. >>>> Not >>>> bad, in my estimation. >>>> >>> Nice try, but the patches listed on the RH security web site are >>> *security* patches - not bug fixes (although they do bundle fixes >> with >>> their security fixes from what I can tell). >> https://www.redhat.com/security/updates/ >> https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/rhel4as-errata.html >> >> Click a button to filter by All, Security, Bug fixes, Enhancements. >> Click another button to sort by date, severity, etc. >> >>> An actual tally for each month: >>> May 2007 - 34 >>> April 2007 - 17 >>> March 2007 - 19 >>> February 2007 - 19 >>> January 2007 - 13 (good month - *only* 13 security patches..) >>> >>> Total = 102 *security* not "bug" patches. >>> >>> And keep in mind that many (most?) of the security fixes they rate >> in >>> applications as low, moderate etc, can result in elevated security >>> priv's and/or the ability to access system protected data, so imho, >> that >>> is pretty critical. >>> >>> Keep in mind that most Cust environments do not have just one >> version of >>> Linux. They have ES3, ES4, ES5 and various WS versions as well, then >>> that means the Operations folks need to track what apps are running >> on >>> what servers and then map out what security patches to apply to >> what >>> systems. >> You don't seem to know very much about Linux package management. >> > > Don't have to. An OS is an OS is an OS. Security patches are security > patches. They are not like bug fixes which you can decide to do when you > feel like it. Most large shops do not want to run exposed when there are > known security patches available. The risk to their business is to > large. > > Nothing to do with OpenVMS or Linux or Windows for that matter. > > The challenge with Linux (and Windows) is the sheer volume of monthly > security patches and the impact they have on Operations and QA/Testing > is mind boggling. > > That is experience talking vs. "ignore the faults, because I can manage > my own small little world just fine, therefore all those other large > shops struggling with little things like no App downtime, strict > revision and config management and App re-cert testing processes just do > not know what they are doing .." > > >> If you are a good sysadmin and have only installed the packages >> necessary for your application, then a single "yum update" command >> on your test box downloads all the *relevant* patch packages and >> installs them. When you are satisfied that the patches don't hose >> your system and can schedule an app downtime, run "yum update" again. >> > > So are you saying that this is what a med shop must do every month for > the 100+ Linux servers running all different versions of Linux? And what > do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns to apply > these security patches? > >>> Does this not sound like a lot of work? >>> >>> (and this does not even discuss the re-cert and testing efforts of >> their >>> App's with these monthly security patches) >>> >>>> 10 various feature bugs per month, and 5 various security bugs per >>>> month. >>>> When you consider that there are pushing 8000 (or more?) packages >> in >>>> Red >>>> Hat (and 10000 in Debian), that's just not too shabby. >>>> >>> Looks like a hackers dream world to me. >> You sound jealous. Most people in this group would love for VMS to >> have that many applications. >> > > Yeah right. > > How about just trying to put some reality into all of the industry hype? > > Can anyone here imagine telling existing OpenVMS Customers that 5-20 OS > security patches per month is ok and just part of normal business > operations so get used to it? We do it every weekend. Suck-arse Forte and geezer VMS that can't coalesce defragmented P0(??) space means that *apps* never stay up longer than a week, and the boxes never stay up more than 45 days. Of course, the "black box" machine running rarely-changing native code on VMS 6.2 and Rdb 7.0.5 easily stay up for 270 days. > Think NASDAQ would think this is acceptable? See the last paragraph in this post, and ask yourself if NASDAQ would accept that. > Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with understanding > the real Operations challenges when compared to more enterprise class > platforms. Don't get me started on the problems we've had with Alpha & VMS in the past year. I'm going to miss a heck of a lot of stuff, but monthly reboots, weekly app bounces and occasional crashes are not among them. >>> Since it is very difficult for the Operations to keep up with all >> these >>> security patches in all of their Dev / QA / Test / Prod >> environments, >>> corp folks either ignore the patches and hope no one attacks them >>> (remember internal users are biggest threat) or they arrange to set >>> aside time to test their business app's against the monthly security >>> patches which significantly reduces the resources available to do >> normal >>> Dev/ Test / QA testing for new App functionality requests. >> Only if you install a kitchen sink install. >> > > And what do you think large companies use for their standard OS > versions? Do you think they want 20+ different config's running all > across their 100+ Linux servers? Sure!!! It's *stupid* to install Samba and NFS and yp/nis and GNOME and 1000 other apps on a dedicated web server, and it's just as stupid to install non-essential stuff on a dedicated Samba server. Not only does this make your system easier to patch, but it reduces the "surface area" on which a bad guy can make an attack. KISS, man, KISS. > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. Except when it crashes due to a suck-arse TCP/IP implementation, taking down 3 servers in the middle of the day! -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:42:21 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: May 27, 2007 5:48 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 [snip...] Well, you have obviously been bitten by the hype and do not manage large DC operations.=20 That's ok - for you, Linux works fine and that is great. To each his own. >=20 > Except when it crashes due to a suck-arse TCP/IP implementation, > taking down 3 servers in the middle of the day! >=20 >=20 You seem to be not managing the OpenVMS environment the way most experienced OpenVMS SysAdmins would or you have some very unique circumstances, or it has never been tuned properly because I have never heard of a TCPIP issue taking out 3 systems. As well, weekly reboots for an application is a sure sign that someone does not understand the App and or the way it has been tuned (system or process parameters).=20 What is typical for most OpenVMS Customers are long time uptime examples like the following: http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=3D07/04/13/5402784 "On 13 April 2007 at 09:35:50 GMT the Amsterdam Police Cluster celebrates 10 years uptime.=20 This cluster is a multiple site cluster which has been upgraded and relocated during the 10 years while maintaining 100% application availability." As I stated, if you are happy with it and Linux works for you, then that is great. However, just remember that large shops have much more complicated environments than you and 5-20 security patches per month is a *very* big issue for them. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. =20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 21:51:33 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 05/27/07 19:42, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: May 27, 2007 5:48 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> > > [snip...] > > Well, you have obviously been bitten by the hype and do not manage large > DC operations. > > That's ok - for you, Linux works fine and that is great. To each his > own. > >> Except when it crashes due to a suck-arse TCP/IP implementation, >> taking down 3 servers in the middle of the day! >> >> > > You seem to be not managing the OpenVMS environment the way most > experienced OpenVMS SysAdmins would or you have some very unique Sadly (or fortunately), I'm not the SysAdmin. And we never had problems like this before Forte came along. > circumstances, or it has never been tuned properly because I have never > heard of a TCPIP issue taking out 3 systems. As well, weekly reboots for > an application is a sure sign that someone does not understand the App > and or the way it has been tuned (system or process parameters). > > What is typical for most OpenVMS Customers are long time uptime examples > like the following: > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/04/13/5402784 > "On 13 April 2007 at 09:35:50 GMT the Amsterdam Police Cluster > celebrates 10 years uptime. > > This cluster is a multiple site cluster which has been upgraded and > relocated during the 10 years while maintaining 100% application > availability." > > As I stated, if you are happy with it and Linux works for you, then that > is great. Whether I'm happy with it or not, It's Coming. The first Alphas are rolling out and Linux/Oracle systems rolling in supposedly in 1Q08 (but probably 2Q08). That's a small cluster that does ~1.6M txn/day. Depending on how well it functions, and how the contracts read for our 2 big clients (each do ~10M txn/day), VMS will be out in 2009 and Linux/Solaris/HPUX will be in. Any way you cut it, though, VMS is *out* and "Unix" is in. Why? The customers (who all talk with each other) *specifically* don't want VMS anymore. Just like in 1998 they wanted GUI and in came Forte and fat client machines. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:38:51 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: In article <00A68303.33AAAAC4@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > > > > >In article , > > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > > reply) wrote: > > > >> I would rather have no VMS at all (or move into a non-computing job) > >> than have some watered-down VMS. > > > >Something about that statement reminds me of NT... :-( > > NT is completely submerged, not just watered-down. It's inundated in > the mirk and mire that is the WEENDOZE mentality. I'm seriously wondering how many rats will finally realise with the weight of VISTA that that the ship is sinking. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 14:26:15 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: On 05/27/07 13:38, P. Sture wrote: >>> In article , >>> helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >>> reply) wrote: >>> >>>> I would rather have no VMS at all (or move into a non-computing job) >>>> than have some watered-down VMS. >>> Something about that statement reminds me of NT... :-( >> NT is completely submerged, not just watered-down. It's inundated in >> the mirk and mire that is the WEENDOZE mentality. > > I'm seriously wondering how many rats will finally realise with the > weight of VISTA that that the ship is sinking. A few thousand, maybe, but only a drop that is the Windows ocean. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:36:24 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <00A683FD.3F803566@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > >In article <00A68303.33AAAAC4@SendSpamHere.ORG>, > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article , "P. Sture" >> writes: >> > >> > >> >In article , >> > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >> > reply) wrote: >> > >> >> I would rather have no VMS at all (or move into a non-computing job) >> >> than have some watered-down VMS. >> > >> >Something about that statement reminds me of NT... :-( >> >> NT is completely submerged, not just watered-down. It's inundated in >> the mirk and mire that is the WEENDOZE mentality. > >I'm seriously wondering how many rats will finally realise with the >weight of VISTA that that the ship is sinking. Nearly everyone I have spoken with that has purchased a new PeeCee with Vista has installed XP on it. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 2007 19:39:17 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <5bu535F2u05f7U1@mid.individual.net> In article , clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > In article <97c47$4656dd61$cef89d8d$19181@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free>, "John Smith" writes: >> >> According to what I hear this morning, VMS will be phased out. >> > > I don't suppose anyone from HP can go and have a chat ? > What makes you think they didn't? Based on the way things have been going lately HP may have played a major role in the decision. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 17:03:56 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <4659f22c$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Dr. Dweeb wrote: > AFAIK the OM software is not capable of supporting a NASDAQ sized exchange, > but I may be wrong. Because ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 17:12:41 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <4659f439$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > Overlapping systems is one thing. Porting a critical app that is not > overlapping to another platform just to save on a few IT systems > admin head count is a totally different matter. Do you have any indication that there are non overlapping apps ? >> And they care about the platform - both what it cost in operational >> and development expertise and whether it has a long term future. > > The IT shop certainly cares. However, the Business Units could not > care less. Especially if the funding for IT is out of a corporate > budget and not their budget. If it is out of the corporate budget then someone in senior management care. > They care about the huge back log of new functionality requests and > add-ons that are piling up. They care about how these new > functionality features will make them more competitive and increase > revenues. > > If the CIO tells the BU's that IT wants to minimize any new > functionality adds in the next 2-3 years, spend a large sum of $'s, > just so they can save a few head count in systems administration by > running on a common platform, that CIO will not be around long. The "save a few head count" is something you invented. http://www.nasdaq.com/newsroom/news/newsroomnewsStory.aspx?textpath=pr2007\ACQPMZ200705250249PRIMZONEFULLFEED120316.htm&cdtime=05%2f25%2f2007%20+2%3a49AM Significant synergy potential: Both parties believe the Combination will create substantial value for shareholders, with total pre-tax annual synergies estimated at $150 million (SEK1,025 million). Of this amount, $100 million (SEK683 million) constitutes estimated cost synergies and $50 million (SEK342 million) estimated revenue synergies. Cost synergies will be realized through the rationalization of IT systems and data centres, rationalization of non-IT functions, and reduced capital and procurement expenditure. Revenue synergies will be achieved through the creation of deeper liquidity pools, increased cross-border trading, increased international listings, packaged data products and enhanced technology sales. In short they plan on saving 100M$ a year primarily on IT. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 18:15:59 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <8c2ff$465a033f$cef8887a$32578@TEKSAVVY.COM> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> http://www.nasdaq.com/newsroom/news/newsroomnewsStory.aspx?textpath=pr2007\ACQPMZ200705250249PRIMZONEFULLFEED120316.htm&cdtime=05%2f25%2f2007%20+2%3a49AM > (SEK342 million) estimated revenue synergies. Cost synergies > will be realized through the rationalization of IT systems > and data centres, rationalization of non-IT functions, and > reduced capital and procurement expenditure. Revenue > synergies will be achieved through the creation of deeper > liquidity pools, increased cross-border trading, increased > international listings, packaged data products and enhanced > technology sales. This is just meaningless PR gobledeegook made by the chairman after having had a power lunch with a PR executive who found a positive spin on the economics of this transaction. They can rationalise IT and find they lose a lot of revenus because IT is a significant source of revenu for OM. There is also danger that hosting european stocks on USA based systems will go against european strict data privacy laws. They may also find that The real goal isn't cost synergies. It is just NASDAQ stroking its ego by being able to claim a european presence. The cost savings are just made up excuses to try to put a positive economic spin to this. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 00:22:43 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <465a04b5$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> wrote in message news:00A683FD.3F803566@SendSpamHere.ORG... > In article , "P. > Sture" writes: >> >> >>In article <00A68303.33AAAAC4@SendSpamHere.ORG>, >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >>> In article , "P. >>> Sture" >>> writes: >>> > >>> > >>> >In article , >>> > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >>> > reply) wrote: >>> > >>> >> I would rather have no VMS at all (or move into a non-computing job) >>> >> than have some watered-down VMS. >>> > >>> >Something about that statement reminds me of NT... :-( >>> >>> NT is completely submerged, not just watered-down. It's inundated in >>> the mirk and mire that is the WEENDOZE mentality. >> >>I'm seriously wondering how many rats will finally realise with the >>weight of VISTA that that the ship is sinking. > > Nearly everyone I have spoken with that has purchased a new PeeCee with > Vista has installed XP on it. > But, why do I even have to purchase ANAY OS on the PC? Let's face it, it is a non-trivial, in fact more or less impossible task, to get a laptop without an OS - or even getting one with XP instead of Wishfor. Same goes for cabinet machines. So much for the convicted monopolist changing its spots - the HW suppliers are still under the thumb and know it. Dweeb > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 00:24:33 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <465a0522$0$21933$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:4659f22c$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > Dr. Dweeb wrote: >> AFAIK the OM software is not capable of supporting a NASDAQ sized >> exchange, but I may be wrong. > > Because ? > > Arne There is more or less only one criterion - transaction volume. Dweeb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:27:28 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <465a13ce$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> http://www.nasdaq.com/newsroom/news/newsroomnewsStory.aspx?textpath=pr2007\ACQPMZ200705250249PRIMZONEFULLFEED120316.htm&cdtime=05%2f25%2f2007%20+2%3a49AM >>> >> (SEK342 million) estimated revenue synergies. Cost synergies >> will be realized through the rationalization of IT systems >> and data centres, rationalization of non-IT functions, and >> reduced capital and procurement expenditure. Revenue >> synergies will be achieved through the creation of deeper >> liquidity pools, increased cross-border trading, increased >> international listings, packaged data products and enhanced >> technology sales. > > > This is just meaningless PR gobledeegook made by the chairman after > having had a power lunch with a PR executive who found a positive spin > on the economics of this transaction. > > They can rationalise IT and find they lose a lot of revenus because IT > is a significant source of revenu for OM. > > There is also danger that hosting european stocks on USA based systems > will go against european strict data privacy laws. They may also find that > > The real goal isn't cost synergies. It is just NASDAQ stroking its ego > by being able to claim a european presence. > > The cost savings are just made up excuses to try to put a positive > economic spin to this. The chairman confessed that in a private conversion with you ? Or did you just made it up ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 19:35:10 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <465a159f$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Dr. Dweeb wrote: > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message > news:4659f22c$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... >> Dr. Dweeb wrote: >>> AFAIK the OM software is not capable of supporting a NASDAQ sized >>> exchange, but I may be wrong. >> Because ? > > There is more or less only one criterion - transaction volume. I has guessed that "... not capable ... sized ..." was related to transaction volume. But what specifically is the problem ? Can they not buy a sufficient big Alpha/I64 box that RDB can cope ? Or is the bottleneck in the application tier ? Or ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 20:59:54 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: May 27, 2007 5:13 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > Overlapping systems is one thing. Porting a critical app that is not > > overlapping to another platform just to save on a few IT systems > > admin head count is a totally different matter. >=20 > Do you have any indication that there are non overlapping > apps ? >=20 Always is in any merger. Some things overlap, some do not. If there is a = great deal of overlap, then what is the added value in the merger to = begin with? In most mergers, the big carrot is to merge/acquire a = company that has *complimentary* technologies, not overlapping. > >> And they care about the platform - both what it cost in operational > >> and development expertise and whether it has a long term future. > > > > The IT shop certainly cares. However, the Business Units could not > > care less. Especially if the funding for IT is out of a corporate > > budget and not their budget. >=20 > If it is out of the corporate budget then someone in > senior management care. >=20 Yes, but the power is in the hands of the BU's. They will go along with = cutting corporate costs, but only if it does not significantly impact = them. I get this all the time in DC Consolidation discussions with BU's = - yes, it sounds like a great thing to do, but how does it benefit the = BU?=20 To the BU, it is a whole lot of risk with not much direct pay back for = them. It takes a very strong CEO to force the BU's to be nice and tow the = corporate line. > > They care about the huge back log of new functionality requests and > > add-ons that are piling up. They care about how these new > > functionality features will make them more competitive and increase > > revenues. > > > > If the CIO tells the BU's that IT wants to minimize any new > > functionality adds in the next 2-3 years, spend a large sum of $'s, > > just so they can save a few head count in systems administration by > > running on a common platform, that CIO will not be around long. >=20 > The "save a few head count" is something you invented. >=20 IT Staffing is 60-70% of most IT budgets today. > = http://www.nasdaq.com/newsroom/news/newsroomnewsStory.aspx?textpath=3Dpr > = 2007\ACQPMZ200705250249PRIMZONEFULLFEED120316.htm&cdtime=3D05%2f25%2f200 > 7%20+2%3a49AM >=20 > Significant synergy potential: Both parties believe the > Combination will create substantial value for shareholders, > with total pre-tax annual synergies estimated at $150 million > (SEK1,025 million). Of this amount, $100 million (SEK683 > million) constitutes estimated cost synergies and $50 million > (SEK342 million) estimated revenue synergies. Cost synergies > will be realized through the rationalization of IT systems > and data centres, rationalization of non-IT functions, and > reduced capital and procurement expenditure. Revenue > synergies will be achieved through the creation of deeper > liquidity pools, increased cross-border trading, increased > international listings, packaged data products and enhanced > technology sales. >=20 Yep, DC Consolidation (DCC) is white hot these days, because they are = big ticket items in the facility budgets (not necessarily the IT = budgets). DCC is also a huge amount of risk with huge complications to = consider - small little things like App latency and bandwidth, running = App's over the WAN, governmental and regulatory compliances, App-App = dependencies (few understand their App-App dependencies, but is critical = to relocating) etc. >=20 > In short they plan on saving 100M$ a year primarily on IT. >=20 > Arne Yeah, but it's a whole lot more complicated than simply proclaiming = "make it so .." :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 21:48:11 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:spam@dweeb.net] > Sent: May 27, 2007 6:25 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out >=20 >=20 > "Arne Vajh=F8j" wrote in message > news:4659f22c$0$90266$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > >> AFAIK the OM software is not capable of supporting a NASDAQ sized > >> exchange, but I may be wrong. > > > > Because ? > > > > Arne >=20 > There is more or less only one criterion - transaction volume. >=20 > Dweeb >=20 Well, fwiw, there has never been a case I am aware of that OpenVMS could = not handle when it comes to transaction volumes. A few years ago an internal benchmark was done on some Tru64 and OpenVMS = servers using Oracle Enterprise Server. OpenVMS was within +10 and -15% = of the Tru64 UNIX numbers which even the competition would acknowledge = was one of the fastest UNIX's around. And as many folks here have discovered, OpenVMS keeps getting better = from an overall performance perspective with each new release. And Rdb is certainly very capable of very high transaction rates as well = . Reference: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v3/oracle_rdb.html=20 http://tinyurl.com/yw9t9z (Row cache) Bottom line is that OpenVMS today handles very high transaction rates = with numerous stock exchanges around the globe. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 2007 18:59:38 -0700 From: dooleys@snowy.net.au Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <1180317578.370838.236450@r19g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On May 26, 8:30 am, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote: > In article <97c47$4656dd61$cef89d8d$19...@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free>, "John Smith" writes: > > > According to what I hear this morning, VMS will be phased out. > > I don't suppose anyone from HP can go and have a chat ? > > [Or can I assume that things are too far along for this to do any good ? :-(] > > It's not nice been forced onto other platforms because VMS doesn't offer > a competitive application portfolio anymore. :-( > > If we are to lose VMS, I don't suppose there's any chance that VMS technology > could be contributed to other operating systems rather than seeing it be > lost ? > > Simon. > > -- > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP > Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world While OMX may run exchanges based on Rdb, their systems division OM Technology works with many different hardware/OS combinations. Their current focus seems to be on using a linux back-end for which they are developing their own message bus (maybe an open source RTR) Phil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 21:33:08 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: On 05/27/07 17:22, Dr. Dweeb wrote: [snip] > > But, why do I even have to purchase ANAY OS on the PC? Let's face it, it is > a non-trivial, in fact more or less impossible task, to get a laptop without Laptops are a bit of a special case, since they are such highly integrated beasties. Still... http://system76.com/index.php/cPath/1?osCsid=534805a0aa7cf984b154bd2701cbbb94 http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V440&l=en&oc=DNCWEL1&s=dhs http://www.emperorlinux.com/ > an OS - or even getting one with XP instead of Wishfor. Same goes for > cabinet machines. So much for the convicted monopolist changing its spots - "Cabinet" machine? It that the same as rack-mounted, or pedestal? http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/e510_nseries?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs > the HW suppliers are still under the thumb and know it. Dell has a contractual obligation to MSFT to *not* sell "naked" computers. So, some clever person got the idea to install FreeDOS. This is for those people who already have Windows site licenses or want to install Linux/*BSD/Solaris from scratch. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 00:39:18 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: > The chairman confessed that in a private conversion with you ? Compaq and HP had "some" synergies in that they were both USA corporations, so office mergers were possible in the USA, and in every other country where Compaq and HP had a presence. And HP's big "data centre consolidation" project has hit many hitches because of data privacy laws not really allowing all of the worldwide employee/customer data being hosted in its new mega data centres in the USA. So in the end, HP needs to maintain data centres around the world. So the grand plan to consolidate everything into a couple of data centres in the USA isn't as "grand" as it had been sold as. NASDAQ and OM/OMX don't have much overlap since they don't operate in the same country. Claims of massive savings are for the gullible only, unless NASDAQ accepts to use the OM software, which doesn't appear too lightly (but I remain open to a pleasant surprise). European exchanges now has greater market value and bigger IPOs than NYSE/NASDAQ combined. And both NASDAQ and NYSE saw this happening and wanted to remain in on the action by buying into european stock exchanges. With Euronext now a US stock exchange, and the scandinavian ones going to the USA, it leaves Frankfurt and London as the main european exchanges. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 00:54:12 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <72eaf$465a6095$cef8887a$2273@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: (Please fix your setting so that lines are wrapped as per text newsgroup standards). > Yes, but the power is in the hands of the BU's. They will go along with >cutting corporate costs, but only if it does not significantly impact them. Horseradish. Chairman has a quarter with below expectation numbers, and issues an edict to fire 5000 people. This is to please Wall Street Casino analysts. Allocation of where the cuts are made are usually squewed by how good a relationship a business manager has with the executive suite. In the case of OMX, if the OM software manager doesn't have a great relationship with the NASDAQ chairman, then the odds are greater that cuts will impact them more than the folks in New York. > Yeah, but it's a whole lot more complicated than simply proclaiming "make it so .." No it isn't. The chairman reads trade rags, hears about keywords and the current "soupe du jour" and orders "make it so" to the troups below him. Look at Digital under Palmer. He read that in trade rags that the average sales per salemen was a certain number, realised that DEC's number was much lower. So he quickly decided to sack the sales force to raise the ratio of sales/employee. Of course, this made matters much worse. Uneducated decisions from the very top are quite common. Consider this: companies that make such changes do so because they are not doing well. They are not doing well because they do not have good top management. So the fact that the top management make the wrong decisions shouldn't come as a surprise. NASDAQ buying OMX is a pride move. It isn't a business move. But if they sell this as a "consolidation" move where they promise big savings, then when those savings don't materialise, they will start to have to make cuts which will hurt the company and make matters worse. Note that Dubai may be buying into OMX to prevent NASDAQ from getting it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 01:41:25 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OM Group acquired by Nasdaq - VMS probably out Message-ID: <7b0d3$465a6ba6$cef8887a$32667@TEKSAVVY.COM> BBC now reports that the owner of the Dubai stock exchange is expected to make a counterbid for OMX. OMX operates in 17 countries. BBC's reporter said something akin to ; "OMX also operates a succesful software business that many people would love to get their hands onto". Now, if Dubai gets OMX, perhaps they will notice VMS and buy it from HP to rescue it and then spend whatever money is needed to market and grow it. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.291 ************************