INFO-VAX Mon, 21 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 277 Contents: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Does NASA/JPL etc still use VMS? Re: Does NASA/JPL etc still use VMS? Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: SYSMAN problem Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 14:12:31 -0400 From: Chip Coldwell Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: On Sun, 20 May 2007, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > The biggest problem with Linux is "too many cooks". What's everyone's > responsibility is no ones responsibility. > > Even in a software engineering environment, things happen that should never > have seen the light of day. Consider Sun's telnet bug in which telnet -lf bin > could get you logged in as bin. VMS has had a few incidents of this class. > With Linux, who's minding the store? Well, as you just pointed out above, these bugs can get out into production environments even if there is somebody "minding the store". Chip -- Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell "Turn on, log in, tune out" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:10:21 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <46509D1D.3010505@comcast.net> Chip Coldwell wrote: > On Sun, 20 May 2007, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>The biggest problem with Linux is "too many cooks". What's everyone's >>responsibility is no ones responsibility. >> >>Even in a software engineering environment, things happen that should never >>have seen the light of day. Consider Sun's telnet bug in which telnet -lf bin >>could get you logged in as bin. VMS has had a few incidents of this class. >>With Linux, who's minding the store? > > > Well, as you just pointed out above, these bugs can get out into > production environments even if there is somebody "minding the store". > > Chip > I believe that such incidents are less probable in a "software engineering environment" where there is an overall design, an overall authority, etc; e.g. where someone is "minding the store". With Linux it's every man for himself and devil take the hindmost. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 01:41:33 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: In article <46508137$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Chip Coldwell wrote: > > It's a weird business model, giving away software and selling support. > > IBM Global Services made a lot of money essentially selling support > > (although they've really screwed the pooch lately if you believe Robert X. > > Cringely). But you're right that necessarily the margins on supporting > > Linux will have to be small if everybody has access to the source code and > > therefore anybody could offer to sell support. > > Mass producing cars using an assembly line also brought the > prices of cars downs. > Yes, but IIRC the original UK Ford Escort was sold at a price which didn't make Ford any money. The profit came from future sales of replacement parts, which were huge, given the market penetration of those models. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:50:37 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: In article , "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: > Tidal wave through northern turkey due to Erosion in Greek Island > > Nuf said - end of discussion > Ah. SOrry to resuscitate this thread, but according to http://www.metafilter.com/60505/Minoa-destroyed-by-tidal-wave-1500-BC ---- Recent scientific evidence suggests the Minoa civilization on Crete was wiped out by a massive tidal wave around 1,500 BC, the same time the Santorini volcano erupted, 70 km north of Crete, up to ten times more powerful than the eruption of Krakatoa in 1883. "Perhaps we now have an explanation of [the Atlantis myth] - a folk memory of a real ancient civilisation swallowed by the sea." ---- Doh. I visited Santorini in 1975 (just before it become a tourist hotspot, therefore still largely unspoilt), and visited an archaeological exhibition where that theory was postulated. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 15:21:23 -0700 From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" Subject: Does NASA/JPL etc still use VMS? Message-ID: <1179699683.511398.99630@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com> Refering to the banking and health-care, is VMS still used in the space/astronomy field. I can recall once that there was some software written for VMS in the space industry, but now its all for either SUN/ Windows/Unix. phillip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 00:51:24 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Does NASA/JPL etc still use VMS? Message-ID: tomarsin2015@comcast.net schrieb: > Refering to the banking and health-care, is VMS still used in the > space/astronomy field. I can recall once that there was some software > written for VMS in the space industry, but now its all for either SUN/ > Windows/Unix. > phillip > There's only little hope, unfortunately, they finally even got rid of their Amigas: http://www.amiga.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34695&forum=22 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:23:45 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Message-ID: <07052013234553_202002DA@antinode.org> From: urbancamo > I edited SYS$CONFIG.DAT to include and entry for the ATI 7500 with the > relevant PCI id (and commented out the existing ATI 7500 entry). SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT exists so that you don't need to bother SYS$CONFIG.DAT (which may be replaced by an ECO or upgrade). Removing the entry for the card you don't have was pointless, especially if you ever do get the right card. > At > the end of startup I get the following: > [...] > >From the output of commands that follow, can I assume that I can > forget using this card? That'd be my guess. At least it tried. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:29:22 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Message-ID: In article <1179608302.597850.152560@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, urbancamo wrote: > I'm getting the following error message on my DS10L running OpenVMS > 8.3. I installed a new ATI 7500 PCI graphics card. I'm not sure > whether there are HP specific versions of this card - this one was > bought as an ATI retail card. > > %DECW$DEVICE-I-NODEVICE, no graphics devices found. > > I previously had problems displaying X-based applications on remote > displays, but that is all sorted now. I have updated the DS10L > firmware to 7.2. I have what appears to be the same issue with a Radeon 7500 card in my XP1000. SHOW DEVICE at the console displays some long and apparently nonsensical string as the device ID, definitely not "ATI Radeon 7500" which is what would match the entry in sys$system:sys$config.dat. My guess is that the device ID is something in Unicode, possibly Chinese. I have hopes that if I can borrow time on a Windows machine, then something in the Windows software included with the card will have the ability to update it with the correct English device ID. I have a vague memory of a report here in the newsgroup that this works, but I have not had the opportunity to try it yet. I'd be interested in reports of failure or success if you have the ability to give that a try. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 13:40:57 -0700 From: urbancamo Subject: Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Message-ID: <1179693657.001971.132150@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: urbancamo > > > I edited SYS$CONFIG.DAT to include and entry for the ATI 7500 with the > > relevant PCI id (and commented out the existing ATI 7500 entry). > > SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT exists so that you don't need to bother > SYS$CONFIG.DAT (which may be replaced by an ECO or upgrade). Removing > the entry for the card you don't have was pointless, especially if you > ever do get the right card. > > > At > > the end of startup I get the following: > > [...] > > >From the output of commands that follow, can I assume that I can > > forget using this card? > > That'd be my guess. At least it tried. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 16:13:39 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: DS10L ATI 7500 PCI Graphics Problems Message-ID: <07052016133931_202002DA@antinode.org> From: "Craig A. Berry" > I have what appears to be the same issue with a Radeon 7500 card in my Issue? Is that anything like a _problem_? > XP1000. SHOW DEVICE at the console displays some long and apparently > nonsensical string as the device ID, definitely not "ATI Radeon 7500" > which is what would match the entry in sys$system:sys$config.dat. Huh? On mine, "SHOW DEVICE at the console displays" exactly nothing related to the graphics card: >>>SHOW DEVICE dka0.0.0.6.1 DKA0 FUJITSU MAB3091S SUN9.0G 1705 dka100.1.0.6.1 DKA100 SEAGATE ST19171W 0024 dka400.4.0.6.1 DKA400 TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-M1711 1005 dva0.0.0.0.0 DVA0 eia0.0.0.2010.1 EIA0 00-50-8B-11-3A-D5 ewa0.0.0.3.1 EWA0 00-00-F8-71-D4-CD pka0.7.0.6.1 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 pkb0.6.0.2009.1 PKB0 SCSI Bus ID 6 5.57 As previously reported, "show config" at the console diaplays the PCI ID info rather than the name, because the XP1000 firmware is too old to recognize the card: 12 51571002/013B1002 It does the same sort of thing for the (cheap Chinese) USB card (with the NEC chip): 13/0 00351033/00351033 13/1 00351033/00351033 13/2 00E01033/29280E55 > My guess is that the device ID is something in Unicode, possibly > Chinese. [...] It might be nice to know exactly about what you're talking. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 01:17:45 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Main, Kerry schrieb: > > I am not saying their mainframe revenue has not declined. It certainly > has. However, even if it is *only* $4-5B / year, think about this in > terms of revenue per server. Very big numbers. This is certainly a nice add-on for IBMs overall revenue, however, $5B in comparison to the total IT market is almost nothing, or, in your own words, just a single pebble on the beach. And, returning to the origin of this partial thread, this is the gist of Gartner's prediction in 1990. It's not necessary to be physically extinct to be relegated to "history". ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 15:13:39 -0700 From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" Subject: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <1179699218.974481.231160@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Hello If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank you. phillip I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 15:14:26 -0700 From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" Subject: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <1179699265.917382.232080@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Hello If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank you. phillip I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 15:13:59 -0700 From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" Subject: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <1179699239.728069.231400@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Hello If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank you. phillip I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 18:29:14 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <4650CBBA.6050905@comcast.net> tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote: > Hello > If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank > you. > phillip > I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 > We heard you! It's not necessary to post it three times! ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 19:28:12 -0700 From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <1179714492.874327.59510@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On May 20, 4:29 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > tomarsin2...@comcast.net wrote: > > Hello > > If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank > > you. > > phillip > > I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 > > We heard you! It's not necessary to post it three times! When I clicked on the post button nothing happen, so I clicked on it two more times and the 3rd time around I finally got the confirmation that the message would be posted. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 22:30:33 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <5c9fd$4651046e$cef8887a$24228@TEKSAVVY.COM> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > We heard you! It's not necessary to post it three times! That is because he wants 3 copies of the documentation :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 22:36:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <465105BE.1050307@comcast.net> tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote: > On May 20, 4:29 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > >>tomarsin2...@comcast.net wrote: >> >>>Hello >>>If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank >>>you. >>>phillip >>>I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 >> >>We heard you! It's not necessary to post it three times! > > > When I clicked on the post button nothing happen, so I clicked on it > two more times and the 3rd time around I finally got the confirmation > that the message would be posted. > Well obviouisly each click succeeded in sending one copy of the message. Three clicks, three copies. Next time wait for a minute of two for your confirmation or check for new messages on the newsgroup. Or, if you get it by mail, wait a couple of minutes and click on whatever you use to get new mail. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 22:38:50 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <4651063A.7030102@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> We heard you! It's not necessary to post it three times! > > > That is because he wants 3 copies of the documentation :-) Well, he's getting zero copies from me. I have November but not September and the listing that came with it doesn't say anything about DEC FAX. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 22:52:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <9555f$46510983$cef8887a$28492@TEKSAVVY.COM> tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote: > Hello > If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank > you. I have the jan 95 CDs, and it is still listed as version 1.2 However, the documentation I can find on the documentation CD is titled "DECfax Mail for OpenVMS xxxxxxxxxx Guide" where XXXXX is: Sender's Operator's Manager's Installation Fax Device If this is what you want, I could let you download the decw$book files. If interested, get in touch via email (remove the spamnot from my email address) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 14:40:14 +1000 From: Jim Duff Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <465122af$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au> tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote: > Hello > If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank > you. > phillip > I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 > Not September, but still 1994 and 1.2: http://www.sysworks.biz/swadm_dat_root/vaxdocmay94/d4r4zaa3.html Cheers, Jim. -- www.eight-cubed.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 22:39:51 -0700 From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" Subject: Re: looking for the on-line documentation for september 1994 Message-ID: <1179725991.784664.262490@u36g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On May 20, 8:36 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > tomarsin2...@comcast.net wrote: > > On May 20, 4:29 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > wrote: > > >>tomarsin2...@comcast.net wrote: > > >>>Hello > >>>If anybody has the disc that I can borrow or sell I would really thank > >>>you. > >>>phillip > >>>I need the docs for DECfax V1.2 > > >>We heard you! It's not necessary to post it three times! > > > When I clicked on the post button nothing happen, so I clicked on it > > two more times and the 3rd time around I finally got the confirmation > > that the message would be posted. > > Well obviouisly each click succeeded in sending one copy of the message. > Three clicks, three copies. Next time wait for a minute of two for > your confirmation or check for new messages on the newsgroup. Or, if > you get it by mail, wait a couple of minutes and click on whatever you > use to get new mail.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well sorry to ruin your day!!! Next time I will try to be perfect!!! ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2007 12:09:18 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: <1179688158.191238.180400@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On May 19, 12:31 pm, JF Mezei wrote: [...snip...] > > It is a fact that the amount of water stored in the kilometerS thick > Greenland ice sheet is capable of raising global ocean levels > significantly. (And when you combine this with Antarctica ice as well as > some of the land-base ice in the arctic, the problem is even worse, but > Greenland is the big issue for ocean levels. > > A rise in ocean levels, even minimal, will also cause a lot of weather > pattern changes. > Most people I talk to agree that the levels will rise. My point is that it won't be as bad as Al Gore's movie. First off, a warmer world will increase evaporation which will keep the water (and water vapour) in motion. Secondly, only ice above the water can contribute to an increase in water level when the ice melts (ask any bar fly :-). Thirdly, the volume of ice above the water line is no where near the volume of water in the oceans. Now one point from Al Gore's movie that no one can disagree with is that a large fraction of humanity lives close to the oceans so that ANY rise in ocean levels will be negative. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 19:45:36 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: In article <1179688158.191238.180400@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck writes: > First off, a warmer world will increase evaporation which will keep > the water (and water vapour) in motion. Slightly. What goes up must come down, but warmer air can hold more water than cooler air (which is why global warming, in general, will increase the number and severity of tropical storms). > Secondly, only ice above the > water can contribute to an increase in water level when the ice melts > (ask any bar fly :-). Ice which is floating will not raise the sea level at all when it melts. > Thirdly, the volume of ice above the water line > is no where near the volume of water in the oceans. The problem is the ice on land, mainly on Greenland and Antarctica. It is several kilometers thick. While the area is less than the area of the oceans, the AVERAGE depth of the oceans is less than the thickness of the ice. So, it will make an appreciable contribution if it melts (appreciable can be much, much less than the average depth of the oceans, especially for coastal regions. > Now one point from Al Gore's movie that no one can disagree with is > that a large fraction of humanity lives close to the oceans so that > ANY rise in ocean levels will be negative. Right. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 16:09:55 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: Neil Rieck wrote: > the water (and water vapour) in motion. Secondly, only ice above the > water can contribute to an increase in water level when the ice melts > (ask any bar fly :-). Thirdly, the volume of ice above the water line > is no where near the volume of water in the oceans. Greenland's ice cap alone is capable of significant ocean level rise on the planet. Remember that it is only water added to the top of oceans, it has no relation to the water volume below current sea level (current volume of water in oceans). I have no idea what Al Gore's predictions are. And Greenland will not all melt in one summer. But those rises will be significant over a period of 100 years (instead of a normal cycle of says 10,000 years). Just consider how often manhattan and JFK airports might be flooded by ome storm usurge or just high winds pushing water. The ocean level need not rise to permanently flood manhattan to cause damage. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 16:15:31 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: SYSMAN problem Message-ID: <4650BA73.F970D459@spam.comcast.net> "P. Sture" wrote: > [snip] > So please enlighten us. What's so evil about bridging? For the young, if it doesn't "speak" IP it's an unknown, and we all know about fear of the unknown... Seriously - there are bridging issues that even seasoned folk would rather not deal with. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 03:38:08 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" wrote in news:1179506738.264108.280180@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: > On May 18, 12:16 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: >> On May 17, 4:53 pm, Keith Parris wrote: >> >> > Doug Phillips wrote: >> > > I recently bought a Canon MP830 and I'm very impressed with it after >> > > using HP for years. It has individual photo/color cartridges (Black, >> > > Yellow, Magenta, Cyan) >> >> > HP also sells some printer models with individual cartridges for each >> > color of ink. >> >> Didn't say they didn't, but so what if they do? I was talking about >> the Canon MP830. I liked the fact that the Canon has a 2nd larger >> black cartridge. The HP's I saw use a single black cartridge for both >> photo and text. I didn't make comparisons between the two other than >> that Canon lacked a NIC, but please do tell us about your comparably >> priced HP Multi-Function. > > I recently bought a printer for my wife and I looked hard at the Canon > MP830 and the MP960 but ended up with an HP C6180. I really didn't > want to go with the HP because we had a multitude of driver problems > on her Win2K system with an HP 2110 AIO. I also had reservations > about the Canon products since we had a bad experience with a MP130 > (Constant paper jams and cock-eyed printing). I did a lot of looking > in the help forums various places and nobody was reporting any > problems with the drivers for these (We print from Mac OS X and > Windows). The MP960, while nice, was a bit pricey at the time ($499 > most places) and the MP830 just didn't feel as easy to use. So we got > the C6180 at MicroCenter for $259 (plus tax). So far no complaints. > We have printed about 300 pages on it without problems and haven't had > the driver issues like before. We've done a little scanning and > copying also. > > My wife prints to it from her Win2k PC and the kids print from their > Mac Mini. I have the HP LJ4050 and not much need for color so I > haven't tried printing with my Mac Pro or even from VMS (via LPR and a > Mac, I suppose). > > The HP c6180 is a 6-color photo printer with fax/scanner/copier > functions. Each color has its own cartridge and the black is around > twice as big as the other colors. Retail for each color cartridge is > $9.95 and the black is $14.95. You can get discounts at Sam's Club > and other places. > > John H. Reinhardt > Really nice, complete review. Since this appears to be _the_ printer review thread, I'll toss one in too. About a year and a half ago, we I finally got fed up with buying expensive new ink cartridges, defective refilled cartridges and performing the messy job of refilling cartridges. My wife complained about not getting photos to print correctly and the kids always seemed to be printing like crazy as soon as the printer was working again. On top of that, my computer had to be on so others could print. We went out and looked at new printers. I was interested in a laser, but my wife wanted to be able to print color photos. The next day, I went back to the office store and brought home a Konica-Minolta Magicolor 2430DL. I hooked it up to the network and installed drivers for Windows XP, Windows XP X64 Professional, and Windows 2000. We had no problems printing. A week later, I installed a driver on a Mac running OS 9. Last fall, I installed a driver for a newly installed Linux box. It has handled well. The kids have printed huge amounts for homework. My wife has printed some photos. (She's been to busy working at the kids school to get back to her scrapbooking.) I've printed plenty myself. At about the one year mark, it ran the black toner dry. (I had about 3 weeks warning.) The new black toner cartridge was $65. I had no problem with that price since I'd been spending over $100 a year on the old inkjet printers. Of course the laser prints much faster, and is available to all the computers without my computer being in the loop. As I recall, it's had only 2 real paper jams. All the others were cleared by my opening the top cover to look for problems. My daughter's laptop appears to often cause the printer to get a video underrun error, if she prints a PDF from within a browser window. That's strange. The laptop itself is pretty slow. She knows she can save the PDF locally and then open it with the Adobe Reader application and then print it fine. Oops. I don't want to forget the price. It was $279. The only time since then that I've seen it that cheap was as a refurb at Fry's, where is was actually $180. Tad Winters ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.277 ************************