INFO-VAX Wed, 02 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 239 Contents: compiler warnings on VMS (was Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2) Re: COPYTREE Question Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Disk Partitions Re: Disk Partitions Re: Disk Partitions Re: Disk Partitions Re: Disk Partitions Re: Disk Partitions DS10 systems heavily discounted Re: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Has Linux Peaked ? RE: Has Linux Peaked ? HSG80 firmware - where to purchase? Re: HSG80 firmware - where to purchase? Re: Making LIB$*_VM_PAGE Caller's-mode safe Re: Motif routines uses by DECterms Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Kodak Nipping at HP's heels Re: OT: Kodak Nipping at HP's heels SIMH Ethernet problem Re: SIMH Ethernet problem Re: SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?) The secret online store Re: Three HP Websites Ranked Among World's Best for Online Support ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 23:41:53 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: compiler warnings on VMS (was Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2) Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > Yep, that's a prototype mismatch. If you look you'll find one > of them is const and the other is not. Lots of compilers will ignore > this kind of sloppy code. Well, depending on the definition of "ignore." The Tru64 C compiler is the exact same compiler with all the same messages as the VMS C compiler (though it's now probably stuck at version 6.5). But I seriously doubt you would fall down on your face trying to build cvs from source on Tru64 the way the OP did on VMS. The difference on VMS is partly the default warning settings (and any modern C compiler can give you, with the right switches, as many or more warnings as the VMS compiler) but mostly the fact that a warning from the compiler leads to an error from the linker; warnings are fatal to the build process. The VMS default compiler behavior has its advantages. If you are building an application from scratch and your target platform is VMS, why not catch all the goofy things as early as possible and correct them before they can cause any serious trouble? Prevention is better than inspection (or in this case, let the compiler do the inspecting). That's a great way to do things under certain constraints and in certain environments, but not so good (or simply not possible) in others. If you have a large, rapidly changing codebase that gets thrown up against multiple compilers on multiple platforms every single day, and the correctness of your code is determined primarily by an extensive automated test suite, then a build process that falls down hard whenever there is a compiler warning can actually hurt you rather than help you. You won't know how you're doing with the test suite since you won't even be able to build your package. It would be much better to collect all the warnings, categorize them, and prioritize them with input from test results, which you can't do if the build blows up on the first warning. Luckily the defaults can be overridden; cranking up the warning level to the maximum and then downgrading them all to informational would probably be the best bet for the latter case. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2007 06:04:54 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: COPYTREE Question Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2007 12:22:02 UTC, briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article , "Dave Weatherall" writes: > > On Tue, 1 May 2007 00:38:25 UTC, JF Mezei > > wrote: > > > >> Chuck Aaron wrote: > >> > I want to copy a directory and all it's sub directories and files from one > >> > server to a new server where the directories do not currently exist. > >> > what is the best way to do this with or without copytree? > >> > >> > >> BACKUP is the tool. But it requires a magic incarnation to get it to > >> rebuild a new tree that is identical to the original one under the new root. > >> > >> Use google for comp.os.vms in the last 2 years search for BACKUP and > >> [...*] and you'll find a coupl;e of posts of the magic incantation that > >> ended up working. > > > > I do somthing like :- > > > > $ backup drive:[root....] other_server::root_1.bck /sav /log /ver > > > > It assumes you have an account on other_server and root_1.bck will be > > placed in SYS$LOGIN there. You can drop the /log but i would keep the > > /ver. The /log is there to ensure the command has been taken (entered) > > as I intend it... > > > > If you need to specify a username of other server then :- > > > > $ backup drive:[root....] other_server"name password"::root_1.bck > > /sav /log /ver > > > > > > Log on to other_server and then :- > > > > $ backup root_1.bck /sav /sel=[root...] new_drive:[root...] /lo /ver > > /by_own=original > > > > This will rebuild the directory tree, maintain file protections, Owner > > and any ACL's. If you do have ACL identifiers, it would be a good idea > > to ensure they exist on other_server first. > > Those commands look right. > > Note that BACKUP preserves the numeric values of the rights identifiers > appearing in ACLs. It does not preserve the identifier names. Good point. I didn't explain myself too well there....This is important :- > One needs to ensure not only that the identifiers exist but also that > they have the same numeric value on the target system as the one they had > on the source system. > > It does no good to have ORACLE_ADMINISTRATORS on the source machine > with hex code %x80001357 and ORACLE_ADMINISTRATORS on the target > machine with hex code %x80001358. > > And it would be especially unfortunate if the target machine had BAD_HACKERS > at %x80001357. > > The /INTERCHANGE qualifier to BACKUP will cause it to restore the > new files using default ACLs picked up from the target directory tree. > If the rights database on the source and target machines are not consistent > then this may be of considerable use. Of course you lose the original > ACLs. That one I forgot about completely!! I always it use for deliveries. > If files are owned by UICs or identifiers that do not exist or are > not consistently numbered on the target system then one would obviously > not want to use /BY_OWNER=ORIGINAL. Good follow-up John. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2007 11:43:49 -0700 From: RandyG271 Subject: Re: cvs client for OpenVMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <1178045029.630185.111450@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Joseph, > The error message shows the getopt definition is STILL included from > DECC$RTLDEF, not from the local getopt.h: if Your CC is not a symbol definition > , then no /exclude=(getopt,... is there. > You have to be sure also not to have unistd (and possibly stdio) in the getopt > compile unit. Mystery finally solved. It turns out the "#define cvs_getopt getopt" was appearing in _both_ config.h and getopt.h. Since getopt.c did a #include "config.h" before #include it succeeded in redefining stdio.h's prototype of getopt to cvs_getopt. I also was able to confirm getopt is defined on line 583 in stdio.h. The solution for me was to move the #include higher up in the file. Since I can't know if this would negatively impact other platforms I wrapped it in a test of __DECC_VER... [XX.CVS.LIB]$ diff getopt.c ************ File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;2 25 #if defined(__DECC_VER) 26 /* Must include stdio.h _before_ config.h, to avoid 27 %CC-E-PROMOTMATCH, In the definition of the function 28 "cvs_getopt"... */ 29 #include 30 #endif 31 32 #ifdef HAVE_CONFIG_H ****** File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 25 #ifdef HAVE_CONFIG_H ************ ************ File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;2 51 #if !defined(__DECC_VER) 52 #include 53 #endif 54 ****** File SYSTEMS$HOME:[XX.CVS.LIB]GETOPT.C;1 44 #include 45 ************ Thanks again for your assistance. Regards, -Randy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:18:08 -0500 From: "Cross Michael C Mr CIV USAF 53 CSS/SCN" Subject: Disk Partitions Message-ID: <138449ECC94125418289A81B26BA97B84A52B6@VFEGMLEG01.Enterprise.afmc.ds.af.mil> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C78C36.38334840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can disks be partitioned in OpenVMS like disks are partitioned in UNIX? If so, do you take a performance hit? =20 Mike =20 Michael C. Cross 53 CSS/SCN 410 w Choctawhatchee Ave, Ste 215 Eglin AFB, FL 32542 (850) 883-7309 Fax: (850) 882-8656 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C78C36.38334840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can disks be partitioned in OpenVMS like disks are partitioned in UNIX?  If so, do you take a performance = hit?

 

Mike

 

Michael C. = Cross

53 = CSS/SCN

410 w Choctawhatchee Ave, Ste = 215

Eglin AFB, FL = 32542=

(850) = 883-7309

Fax: (850) = 882-8656

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C78C36.38334840-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:06:30 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Disk Partitions Message-ID: <07050117063062_202002DA@antinode.org> From: "Cross Michael C Mr CIV USAF 53 CSS/SCN" > Can disks be partitioned in OpenVMS like disks are partitioned in UNIX? > If so, do you take a performance hit? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/5edb65029b4d4c00/7f123c58b0129a2e [...] There is no supported way to partition an OpenVMS system disk. [...] Sorry, no. [...] Is there some actual problem which you are trying to solve? (Or are you interested only in whether your prospective solution will work?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 18:19:28 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Disk Partitions Message-ID: <4637BCF0.8090107@comcast.net> Cross Michael C Mr CIV USAF 53 CSS/SCN wrote: > Can disks be partitioned in OpenVMS like disks are partitioned in UNIX? > If so, do you take a performance hit? > > > > Mike > > > > Michael C. Cross > > 53 CSS/SCN > > 410 w Choctawhatchee Ave, Ste 215 > > Eglin AFB, FL 32542 > > (850) 883-7309 > > Fax: (850) 882-8656 > > > Not unless such a feature has been added fairly recently! Some DEC hardware RAID controllers will allow you to partition a RAID set but it's not quite the same thing. Partitioning JBODs is a Unix thing. No reason to do it in VMS! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 22:20:34 GMT From: "Colin Butcher" Subject: Re: Disk Partitions Message-ID: Not really. VMS doesn't have that kind of UNIX-style partitioning built in. Why? Read on... You don't really need that kind of functionality with array controllers, rooted logical names, LDdriver and so on. For boot purposes a disc is a disc is a disc. These days with very big discs it might be useful on a small system, but you're always going to take a performance hit with having the OS hit what it things are multiple 'discs' that translate to the same physical disc. Array conrollers (eg: EVAs, HSGs etc.) let you 'partition' a set of spindles, which is pretty nice. DECram lets you treat memory as a disc - and volume shadowing is smart enough to do all the reads from the in-memory copy. Big memory systems get you the XFC which caches a lot of stuff. LDdriver lets you 'partition what's presented to the OS as a 'disc' into multiple pieces. Can be incredibly useful at times. See the technical journals for more information. In short - all the things you'd need exist. Just depends what you want to achieve as to which way is best for performance and reliability. What exactly are you trying to do? -- Cheers, Colin. Legacy = Stuff that works properly! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 20:27:29 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Disk Partitions Message-ID: <4637E901.FF32DDBF@spam.comcast.net> Please don't post MIME or HTML to a text-only newsgroup. > Can disks be partitioned in OpenVMS like disks are partitioned in > UNIX? Well, yes and no. No, because VMS sees a device - period. It considers the entire physical volume from cylinder zero, head zero, sector zero out through the end. The concepts of "raw" (byte I/O) and block I/O devices doesn't exist in VMS as you know it in UN*X-land. Yes, sort of. The new LD DRIVER versions support creating LD devices that can use either a container file or a specified portion of a physical drive. See the HELP for LD in the newer VMS versions. Here's an example of carving up two RZ29s into two shadow-sets of 1.5GBF each: $! $ ld connect dka100:/lbn=(start=0,count=3145728) lda1/allo=1 $ ld connect dka100:/lbn=(start=3145728,count=3145728) lda3 $ ld connect dka200:/lbn=(start=0,count=3145728) lda2 $ ld connect dka200:/lbn=(start=3145728,count=3145728) lda4 $! $ moun/noassi/syst dsa1/shad=($1$lda1,$1$lda2) shadow1 shadow1 $ moun/noassi/syst dsa2/shad=($1$lda3,$1$lda4) shadow2 shadow2 (Some space is unused at the end of each volume - this was just to try it out.) > If so, do you take a performance hit? Depends on your I/O demands. Naturally, when you're trying to do a lot with logical volumes that are part of a single physical volume all that I/O must be handled by a single initiator and a single actuator (HDA). You can carve up large physical volumes (<1TB) into smaller logical volumes using the newer LD. You just need to be careful about planning for I/O loading. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 22:09:44 -0500 From: Bill Hall Subject: Re: Disk Partitions Message-ID: Cross Michael C Mr CIV USAF 53 CSS/SCN wrote: > Can disks be partitioned in OpenVMS like disks are partitioned in UNIX? > If so, do you take a performance hit? > > > > Mike > > > > /*/Michael C. Cross/*/ > > /*/53 CSS/SCN/*/ > > /*/410 w Choctawhatchee Ave, Ste 215/*/ > > /*/Eglin AFB, FL 32542/*/ > > /*/(850) 883-7309/*/ > > /*/Fax: (850) 882-8656/*/ > > > The HP layered product, HP RAID Software for OpenVMS will allow you to create a single member RAID-0 array and partition it. The SPD says up to 64 partitions per array. It should be relatively low overhead. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:47:29 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" Subject: DS10 systems heavily discounted Message-ID: We are now offering DS10 systems (466Mhz) for the month of may with a 2 year Island warranty If anyone is interested please send your required configurations to: sales@islandco.com DAVID TURNER ISLAND COMPUTERS US CORP SAVANNAH GA 31404 USA 912-4476622 X201 FAX: 912 201 0402 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 22:20:34 GMT From: "Colin Butcher" Subject: Re: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: Dr. Strangelove. Things haven't changed too much since then... -- Cheers, Colin. Legacy = Stuff that works properly! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 19:30:08 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: <4637cd7f$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >> OpenVMS: >> NetBeans 3.6 >> NetBeans 5.0 Field Test 2 >> >> Other platforms: >> NetBeans 5.5 >> NetBeans 6.0 Milestone 8 > Given how most shops are reluctant to jump on the latest versions of > IDE's (worried about production schedule hits), it does not bother me > that much if OpenVMS is a release behind. With IDE's, its not unlike OS > releases i.e. most shops do not do .0 releases, but rather wait for SP's > or maint releases. That is not my experience. People want to run the latest IDE. Development environment and production are two completely different things. Especially with with NetBeans (3.x sucks, 5.x is actually good). > Heck, many shops I know of are still running 1.4 versions of Java. > > :-) There are people that still develop for 1.3.1. But they still prefer to run the latest IDE. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 19:49:04 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: <4637d1ef$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > There is typically no porting of 100% Java app's required for OpenVMS .. > after some testing to verify config's, quotas, logicals, performance > etc, simply deploy & run the App's on OpenVMS. That's a pretty strong > business driver. > > I have heard of shops that develop Java Apps on Windows for the WS > benefits, but deploy on OpenVMS for the stability / security. I suspect > the 5-20 security patches released *every month* for Windows/Linux might > have something to do with this? My guess is that somewhere in the 50-75% range of Java apps are developed on another OS than they run on in production. [QA better be on the same though] Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:48:17 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: May 1, 2007 7:30 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> OpenVMS: > >> NetBeans 3.6 > >> NetBeans 5.0 Field Test 2 > >> > >> Other platforms: > >> NetBeans 5.5 > >> NetBeans 6.0 Milestone 8 >=20 > > Given how most shops are reluctant to jump on the latest versions of > > IDE's (worried about production schedule hits), it does not bother > me > > that much if OpenVMS is a release behind. With IDE's, its not unlike > OS > > releases i.e. most shops do not do .0 releases, but rather wait for > SP's > > or maint releases. >=20 > That is not my experience. >=20 > People want to run the latest IDE. >=20 > Development environment and production are two completely > different things. >=20 > Especially with with NetBeans (3.x sucks, 5.x is actually good). >=20 > > Heck, many shops I know of are still running 1.4 versions of Java. > > > :-) >=20 > There are people that still develop for 1.3.1. >=20 > But they still prefer to run the latest IDE. >=20 > Arne Mmmm, well, that is likely true for the App developers or small-med = environments, but the shops I have had experiences with typically have a = mountain of new functionality to-do's on their plate.=20 Hence, the senior App mgmt types are usually concerned that any major = IDE changes will negatively impact their QA/Testing schedules that have = been previously engraved in stone. Since scheduling prod systems down = time for new functionality releases often needs to be done months in = advance, if the Dev folks are not ready or have not completed their = testing, then that could literally mean a number of additional months = before the next window comes up. And if this is a regulated industry (Health, Drug, Food, Agriculture = etc), then new IDE's means re-certification is required and that is a = really, really big deal. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2007 11:31:05 -0700 From: DaveG Subject: HSG80 firmware - where to purchase? Message-ID: <1178044265.524566.22440@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> Question in title. We are located in the US. TIA, Dave... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:46:17 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: HSG80 firmware - where to purchase? Message-ID: <133f2ngjdmns33a@news.supernews.com> Send me the info of what you need and I will send a quote SR "DaveG" wrote in message news:1178044265.524566.22440@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > Question in title. We are located in the US. > > TIA, > > Dave... > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:52:01 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Making LIB$*_VM_PAGE Caller's-mode safe Message-ID: Hi Ian, Thanks for the reply and for taking the time to look that up for me. > After a quick BLISSful wander though SYSSNDJBC.LIS > > It appears that context blocks are allocated by EXE$ALOP1PROC and kept > in a linked list (QMAN$GQ_GETQUI_CONTEXT). There are kernel mode > routines to manage this list and a image rundown routine to clean up > if you do not deallocate the context block yourself. Thought as much, and still say it's pooh :-) Ok I might take that back; for the moment let's say it is definitely the way to go for *all* inner-mode memory allocation. SYS$GETUAI is soon to be secured with just such a mechanism for maintaining its own memory pool of "context" areas but, before they re-introduce a ctl$gl_uaictx, let's pause for a moment and spare a thought for modularity. Why does the same linked-list memory database manager have to be re-invented every bloody time? I doubt that these are the only two system services that have this requirement. We need to get, free, re-use, defragment, and validate. Shit, we need an inner-mode heap manager - now there's a thought! So $getqui is part of the kernel and is always gonna be pushing it up hill? Fair enough, you're on your own. But $getuai is just another UWSS and aren't we all screaming out to be able to use the same "context" between $getuai and $setuai? (I wonder why we could never do that? I wonder why sys$finish_uai was never implemented?) Imagine being able to lock a UAF record between $getuai and $setuai so as to eliminate hidden updates? Imagine an extrremely useful VMS Exec mode rundown handler being able to close all channels and free all resources at image/process exit, safe in the knowledge that it *is* the uaf that *I* previously opened and not some other poor bastard facility's inner-mode channel? And while you're making those lovely changes, why not intoduce a Caller's Mode Safe LIB$*VM facility? Just 4 bytes for the IFI/ISI each time from the user_mode:R, exec_mode:W UAI_ZONE, sounds good doesn't it? (Or a VMS Kernel Structures reorg?) I tell you what, don't bother fixing it at all. I mean really, how many other facilities have an Exec-Mode RMS channel open at the same time? And even then they can't write to it (change the key of reference?) They shouldn't be giving hackers access to compilers anyway. Yeah, stuff 'em! Even if we do fix it, all we're gonna do is hide the change in a back room and only had it out on a needs-to-know basis. That's the spirit. Cheers Richard Maher PS. Ian, if you get as curious as me over your next coffe, could you please lookup how $getqui decides that it "owns" the context block the user has presented it with? Link List inventory check? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 23:03:13 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Motif routines uses by DECterms Message-ID: shofu_au@yahoo.com.au wrote: > That leaves me to believe that the reason for the slowness is the way > I am updating my window in Motif. How much data does each TCPIP side AST obtain ? (aka, character by character, packet by packet ?) > I update my Motif window using by getting the last position via > XmTextGetLastPosition, > then inserting the text via XmTextInsert. This is done inside the > call back from > XtAppAddInput. I am not sure about how DECterm does it. Mr FredK might know if given the right amount of the right kind of a favourite beverage. I doubt that DECterm uses XmText since it is able to have various text renditions, as well as some graphics (Sixel, and line drawing). > I belive that the usage of these two routines cause the whole process > to be so slow. The XmTextInsert is meant more to paste stuff into an existing XmText widget. Have you tried keeping a local copy of the data and using XmTextSet to rebuild the display from scratch ? You could also try XmTextReplace. But not sure if this would be any different from XmTextInsert. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 18:33:01 GMT From: Alfred Falk Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: "Dr. Dweeb" wrote in news:46365a15$0$7609$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk: > genius@marblecliff.com wrote: >> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery >> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a >> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the >> pictures and video ... >> >> http://www.arkfever.com/ > > Did any of you huys actually read that article or look at the pictures > in large size? Actually, I _did_ look. I'm sure I've seen rock formations that look just like that in the Canadian Rockies (Waterton Park, to be exact). Evidently Noah had conterparts in the other parts of the world. Hmmm... maybe the grand tour somebody was suggesting wasn't necessary; just lots of Noahs and and Arks...? Now, Genesis says nothing about such things, could it be wrong? Of course the geologists insists that these rocks are millions of years old. But obviously they must be wrong. > It's just a rocky outcrop that looks a bit like logs - nothing more or > less. Never! God wouldn't try to fool us would he? /A ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2007 18:48:37 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <59pgc4F2l9gqiU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Alfred Falk writes: > > Actually, I _did_ look. I'm sure I've seen rock formations that look > just like that in the Canadian Rockies (Waterton Park, to be exact). > Evidently Noah had conterparts in the other parts of the world. Hmmm... > maybe the grand tour somebody was suggesting wasn't necessary; just lots > of Noahs and and Arks...? Now, Genesis says nothing about such things, > could it be wrong? > > Of course the geologists insists that these rocks are millions of years > old. But obviously they must be wrong. > >> It's just a rocky outcrop that looks a bit like logs - nothing more or >> less. > > Never! God wouldn't try to fool us would he? > Actually, no He wouldn't as that would be a very un-Godlike action. Which is, as I have told many people including a number of my Theology Professors that there really is no conflict between religion and science except where both parties choose to create it. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 15:50:08 -0700 From: David Mathog Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Alfred Falk writes: >>> It's just a rocky outcrop that looks a bit like logs - nothing more or >>> less. >> Never! God wouldn't try to fool us would he? >> > > Actually, no He wouldn't as that would be a very un-Godlike action. Which chapter of the "Standards of Godly Behavior" are you citing? > Which is, as I have told many people including a number of my Theology > Professors that there really is no conflict between religion and science > except where both parties choose to create it. I don't accept that statement but I've heard it often enough. It seems to be a mainstay in parts of current Catholicism, one often cited in respect to Galileo. For instance: "It was a conflict that ought never to have occurred, because faith and science, properly understood, can never be at odds." Quoted from here: http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/GalileoAffair.html However, the Church not withstanding, it seems abundantly clear that something closer to the opposite of that statement is true. Religion (at least the major western ones) and science are intrinsically in conflict because the former is based on faith in the revealed truth contained in certain holy texts and the latter on an understanding of the physical world based on experimentally verifiable observation. If the scientific method is applied to religion the Null Hypothesis may be formulated something like "if there are no Gods, then all the holy texts must have been written by men without benefit of divine guidance." Very hard to reconcile something like that with Faith. If Faith, and especially literal interpretation of holy texts, is applied to the physical world we end up with absurd statements concerning seashells on mountain tops. Also, all too frequently, people being murdered for their "incorrect" beliefs. The chasm between the two world views is enormous, as is plenty apparent in this very thread. If this is not intrinsic conflict, I don't know what is. Regards, David Mathog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 15:58:14 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: <07050115581447_202002DA@antinode.org> From: "Doug Kimball" > So, what are your top three favorite movies, VMSophiles? We need a promo > for the upcoming HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua, and we would love > your input. For the best combination of character, performance, plot, and DEC content (pre-VMS, but right there behind the opening credits), I can't think of anything to beat "Three Days of the Condor" (MCMLXXV, "SPECIAL EQUIPMENT FURNISHED BY DIGITAL CORPORATION".) I also seem to recall (barely) some old computer-animated short which involved one or two badly drawn guys at a beach, and which wasn't very good, really, but when you got to the end credits and saw what was used to render the thing, it looked a lot better. Luckily, I can't locate the laser disc, and I can't remember the title. (Or much else. This old age is Hell.) I seem to believe that the credits were in French or maybe bilingual, (no dialogue), so it may have been Canadian. Even if I could identify it, I don't know where you'd get a copy. Forget I mentioned it. Why can't all off-topic topics be this close to on-topic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:33:26 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: <8660a3a10705011833v2728d667ga1817698ee4cc9f1@mail.gmail.com> ------=_Part_658_21392111.1178069606994 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dr. Strangelove Lawrence of Arabia Casablanca If you can't build a promo around any of those, you ought not to be in marketing. WWWebb PS- Can you bring a big blowup of the Compaq-era "Had it with toy operating systems" spoof ad? It would be a big hit for the 30th Anniversary Bootcamp. On 5/1/07, Doug Kimball wrote: > > So, what are your top three favorite movies, VMSophiles? We need a promo > for > the upcoming HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua, and we would love your > input. > Thanks! > > Doug > > -- > Doug Kimball > Manager, Sales and Support > Software Partners, Inc. > www.softwarepartners.com > > > ------=_Part_658_21392111.1178069606994 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Dr. Strangelove
Lawrence of Arabia
Casablanca
 
If you can't build a promo around any of those, you ought not to be in marketing.
 
WWWebb
 
PS- Can you bring a big blowup of the Compaq-era "Had it with toy operating systems" spoof ad?
 
It would be a big hit for the 30th Anniversary Bootcamp.

 
On 5/1/07, Doug Kimball <dougkimball@spammydavisjr.net> wrote:
So, what are your top three favorite movies, VMSophiles? We need a promo for
the upcoming HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua, and we would love your input.
Thanks!

Doug

--
Doug Kimball
Manager, Sales and Support
Software Partners, Inc.
www.softwarepartners.com



------=_Part_658_21392111.1178069606994-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 00:00:35 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: Doug Kimball wrote: > So, what are your top three favorite movies, VMSophiles? We need a promo for > the upcoming HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua, and we would love your input. In a context of VMS: 2001: Watch an IBM computer kill people :-) The China Syndrome: Watch DECwriters write messages to the nuclear plant operators. Terminator III: Watch non-DEC computers get infected by a virus and then destroy the world. It is a shame that DEC didn't use product placement to make its products more visible in movies. I can't think of more than China Syndrome where DEC gear was made visible. ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2007 21:06:51 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: <1178078811.234504.145520@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 1, 12:42 pm, "Doug Kimball" wrote: > So, what are your top three favorite movies, VMSophiles? We need a promo for > the upcoming HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua, and we would love your input. > Thanks! "Dr. Strangelove" is a true classic (Good choice, folks) "Buckaroo Banzai" - Excellent cast, off-beat cult classic "Hackers" - lots of real-life hacking portrayed Hollywood-style, lots of historical hacking references, > > Doug > > -- > Doug Kimball > Manager, Sales and Support > Software Partners, Inc.www.softwarepartners.com ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2007 21:13:24 -0700 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: <1178079204.365838.266970@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 1, 12:42 pm, "Doug Kimball" wrote: > So, what are your top three favorite movies, VMSophiles? We need a promo for > the upcoming HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua, and we would love your input. > Thanks! "Dr. Strangelove" - good choice, a true classic "Buckaroo Banzai" - Excellent cast, cult-classic "Hackers" - Lots of real-hacking concepts portrayed Hollywood-style (since some isn't that exciting), and lots of hacking history honored (Morris worm for instance). John W and I watched it and counted about 70+ real hacker references throughout the movie. And Angelina Jolie doesn't hurt. BTW, the main character of Zero Cool was played by Johnny Lee Miller who was married to Angelina at the time. Of course, I also have a personal affection for the movie "Wizards"... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 22:54:30 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: <7dd80f60705011954j260b8a0bl92ec98f74acc0cbf@mail.gmail.com> On 5/1/07, Doug Kimball wrote: > So, what are your top three favorite movies, VMSophiles? We need a promo for > the upcoming HP Partners Roundhouse in Nashua, and we would love your input. > Thanks! 2001 A Space Odyssey StarWars (I liked them in this order: 4,6,1,2,3,5) Shrek (1 & 2) A close 4th would be almost any Mel Brooks movie: Silent Movie Blazing Saddles Young Frankenstein High Anxiety Robin Hood -- Men in Tights Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:31:56 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: <07050123315691_202002DA@antinode.org> From: JF Mezei > It is a shame that DEC didn't use product placement to make its products > more visible in movies. I can't think of more than China Syndrome where > DEC gear was made visible. Pay attention. Get out more. (Or stay in more. It's been available on home video since at least 1982.) I'll try again: > For the best combination of character, performance, plot, and DEC > content (pre-VMS, but right there behind the opening credits), I can't > think of anything to beat "Three Days of the Condor" (MCMLXXV, "SPECIAL > EQUIPMENT FURNISHED BY DIGITAL CORPORATION".) It has another advantage: no Jane Fonda. (Part of an actual conversation: "Jane Fonda movies?" "I don't know. Is she?" You had to be there.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2007 18:46:42 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Re: OT: Kodak Nipping at HP's heels Message-ID: <1178070402.743429.59340@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 1, 3:27 am, JF Mezei wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: > > With Kodak challenging HP in the printer market, and HP giving up in the > > HealthCare Enterprise sector, the HP shareholders in this group may wish to > > reconsider their holdings and position. > > Nearby hospital has switched from HP monitors to Phillips monitors. Had > seen those at emergency ward, but have now seen them at intensive care > units with many of their features turned on. Pretty interesting LAN > service (an alarm generated in room 1 will show up on all monitors so > that a nurse can they judge if it is necessary to go to room 1). > > Note sure what OS those monitors run. Probably Vxworks since this is > truly life critical stuff. The software seems quite evolved in those, > detecting irregular heart beats, missed heart beats, changes in blood > pressure, O2 levels etc. > > They also have an extension rack into which they can plug in a number of > additional sensor modules. Makes for a lot of cables going to the > patient's body. > > At emergency, they are not in constant use because some patients don't > need heart monitors etc. But at the ICU, they are in constant use 7/24 > and this presents interesting challenges for any maintenance windows to > the displays and central server. This is not to JF but to folks in general Since I am on my own time and hopefully will not be labled a VMS traitor. I fail to see how Kodak announcing a 9 dollar print cartridge can be called the end of the VMS world and has anything to do with healthcare? And to tell the truth I can usually make any conversation a VMS conversation, including the weather If folks would like to write to Cerner and encourage them to change their minds I would personally love that but encouraging folks to bail on HP is not really going to help any of those in VMS anywhere is it. Sue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 23:24:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Kodak Nipping at HP's heels Message-ID: <3f71e$463804ce$cef8887a$25287@TEKSAVVY.COM> Sue wrote: > If folks would like to write to Cerner and encourage them to change > their minds I would personally love that but encouraging folks to bail > on HP is not really going to help any of those in VMS anywhere is it. Sue, it has often been said that ink is HP's current cash cow. So discussing how a desperate Kodak might come out and provide reasonably priced ink would have the potential to hurt HP's cash cow. And hurting HP's cash cow will inevitably result in HP shareholders expecting HP manager to announce more cuts. And those cuts will further hurt VMS. Since Carly spun off the real "HP" into Agilent, the loss of Agilent business to Philips will not impact VMS. But it does show how the HP empire is not what it used to be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 16:34:19 -0500 From: Hunter Goatley Subject: SIMH Ethernet problem Message-ID: I've downloaded the SimH V3.70 with Ethernet support from Trailing Edge, and I installed WinPCAP V4. When I launch SIMH and do the "attach xq eth0", this is what I get: Eth: opened \Device\NPF_GenericDialupAdapter Eth: Error Transmitting packet: No error You may need to run as root, or install a libpcap version which is at least 0.9 from www.tcpdump.org I verified with XQ SHOW ETH that eth0 is the NPF driver (which you can see above, too). Any ideas? (And no, after booting VMS, it doesn't work, so the "no error" error appears to be real. Thanks! -- Hunter ------ Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ PreciseMail Anti-Spam Gateway for OpenVMS, Tru64, Solaris, & Linux goathunter@goatley.com http://www.goatley.com/hunter/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 22:20:28 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: SIMH Ethernet problem Message-ID: In article , Hunter Goatley wrote: > I've downloaded the SimH V3.70 with Ethernet support from > Trailing Edge, and I installed WinPCAP V4. When I launch > SIMH and do the "attach xq eth0", this is what I get: > > Eth: opened \Device\NPF_GenericDialupAdapter > Eth: Error Transmitting packet: No error > You may need to run as root, or install a libpcap version > which is at least 0.9 from www.tcpdump.org > > I verified with XQ SHOW ETH that eth0 is the NPF driver > (which you can see above, too). Any ideas? (And no, > after booting VMS, it doesn't work, so the "no error" > error appears to be real. Are you running Winpcap from an Administrator account and/or kicking it off at system start-up per the instructions in section 2.2 of the SIMH FAQ? Are you running SIMH itself from an Administrator account? I haven't tried it on Windows, but on Mac OS X I did have to build libpcap and run SIMH itself with elevated privs. I never had to do any explicit attach commands. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 17:20:18 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?) Message-ID: <07050117201829_202002DA@antinode.org> From: Martin Krischik > $1$dga1:[sys1.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_ssh2.exe: SSH Secure Shell > OpenVMS (V5.5) 3.2.0 on AlphaServer ES40 - VMS V7.3-2 Ok. > > 'scp -v [...]'? > > Shure, here it is: > [...] I'd worry about the key file problem first. When "ssh" works, you can start to worry about "scp". > > 0. You key files are probably in the wrong format for VMS, but it's > > hard to tell when we don't know which SSH product you're running. > > Well, I expect the key is the wrong format as well and if somebody knows > of a key converter that would indeed be helpful. "man ssh-keygen" on a non-VMS system? On Solaris there's a "-X" or "-i" option to convert an SSH2-format file (like on VMS) to an OpenSSH-format file. I don't know what your stuff can do. I thought that on Linux "ssh-keygen" (or something) could convert to SSH2 format. > > 1. We can't see the file. > > Of course not - it's my *private* key - it is not be seen by anyone but > me (and anybody who got ByPass privilege :-( ). Well, duh. Hide the data but show the format. Or make a key-file set on the VMS system, look at the resulting key files, and use a text editor to convert the files yourself. It worked for me (before I found the other methods). Or go to the ITRC forums and look for "ssh-keygen". This stuff has been discussed repeatedly there (typically under HP-UX, because Tru64 uses the same formats as VMS): http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 1 May 2007 15:38:00 -0700 From: lex9 Subject: The secret online store Message-ID: <1178059080.403795.14520@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> The secret online store This site has the top 20 digitals produits on the market. Browse by categories or by search, you will find the top best digitals produits. Take a look. http://secretstore.1shoppingsite.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:30:44 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: Three HP Websites Ranked Among World's Best for Online Support Message-ID: <8660a3a10705011830u37a5c26ds9122240040be6328@mail.gmail.com> ------=_Part_622_14333954.1178069444060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I hope that Jakob Nielsen doesn't hear about this. The volume of hysterical laughter might kill him. WWWebb On 30 Apr 2007 14:09:46 -0700, Rambo wrote: > > On Apr 30, 2:33 pm, Ian Miller wrote: > > http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=n... > > > > "Recognizing HP's commitment to providing relevant help and support > > information for consumer and enterprise customers around the world, > [snip] > > mmm... They don't mention how hard it is to find things on hp web > > sites sometimes > > Well, in all fairness, While HP staff might be a bunch of jerks most > of the > time, I've just rebuilt my respect for HP online support. > > There's already Tru64 5.1B-4 media (possibly) coming my was and I > haven't paid a squat for it, and support people were really kind, very > competent and really OK to work with on solutions. > > Rambo > > ------=_Part_622_14333954.1178069444060 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
I hope that Jakob Nielsen doesn't hear about this.
 
The volume of hysterical laughter might kill him.
 
WWWebb

 
On 30 Apr 2007 14:09:46 -0700, Rambo <m_roguski@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 30, 2:33 pm, Ian Miller <g...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=n...
>
> "Recognizing HP's commitment to providing relevant help and support
> information for consumer and enterprise customers around the world,
[snip]
> mmm...  They don't mention how hard it is to find things on hp web
> sites sometimes

Well, in all fairness, While HP staff might be a bunch of jerks most
of the
time, I've just rebuilt my respect for HP online support.

There's already Tru64 5.1B-4 media (possibly) coming my was and I
haven't paid a squat for it, and support people were really kind, very
competent and really OK to work with on solutions.

Rambo


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