INFO-VAX Mon, 30 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 236
Contents:
Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS?
COPYTREE Question
Re: COPYTREE Question
Re: COPYTREE Question
Re: COPYTREE Question
Re: Free used AlphaServers
GETQUI consternation
Re: GETQUI consternation
Re: GETQUI consternation
Re: GETQUI consternation
Re: GETQUI consternation
Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Multiple VAXcluster (SCS) ports
Re: Multiple VAXcluster (SCS) ports
Re: Neocons destroying America
Noahs ark found!
Noahs ark found!
Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Noahs ark found!
Re: Noahs ark found!
numerical libraries on integrity
Re: numerical libraries on integrity
Re: SET Security question
Re: SET Security question
Re: SET Security question
Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN
Re: SNMP agent
Re: SNMP agent
SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?)
Re: SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?)
Re: SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?)
Three HP Websites Ranked Among World's Best for Online Support
Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Re: VMS 8.2 VMSINSTAL Bug with RUN_IMAGE Persists?
Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images?
Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images?
Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images?
[OT] Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:31:41 -0700
From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha
Message-ID: <R2gZh.4339$uJ6.916@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>
Main, Kerry wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jrandrew@hotmail.com [mailto:jrandrew@hotmail.com]
>>Sent: April 26, 2007 3:08 PM
>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
>>Subject: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha
>>
>>I am interested in running Apache on OpenVMS (Alpha platform), but the
>>sysadmins I'm working with have told me that they are running on
>>OpenVMS version 7.2. HP's website on Apache (and their port to VMS,
>>Secure Web Server)
>>http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_download.ht
>>ml
>>
>>indicates that you need OpenVMS version 7.3-1 at a minimum.
>>
>>Is there any way to run Apache on 7.2, or will standard Apache run on
>>7.2, i.e. not HP's ported version? What would be some of the issues in
>>getting Apache to run on 7.2, if possible?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Josh
>
>
> Josh,
>
> Is there a reason why you would simply not just upgrade to take
> advantage of all the latest enhancements related to scalability,
> security, UNIX compatibility, new HW support, new features etc in recent
> OpenVMS releases?
>
> OpenVMS V7.2 was released in Jan 1999, so using an 8+ year old OS is a
> bit like asking Microsoft if you can run the latest Apache web server
> package on Windows NT4.
>
OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-2 was released in Sept 2001, about 5 1/2 years ago, about
the same time (1/2 year after) as the latest release of OpenVMS VAX, 7.3.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 07:14:45 -0700
From: genius@marblecliff.com
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> > pictures and video ...
>
> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>
> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran, you've
> got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow it up or
> something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have Internet access
> there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't wear a necktie or pluck
> your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your head off.
>
> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany. Reporters
> said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>
> Doc.
watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
explain that smart guy ...
most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
there were some past references that pointed to the range
in Iran as being the place ...
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 14:32:04 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <Xns9922A8343BE4Adocopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229>
genius@marblecliff.com wrote in
news:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>> > pictures and video ...
>>
>> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>>
>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
>> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
>> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
>> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
>> head off.
>>
>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>
>> Doc.
>
> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
> explain that smart guy ...
>
> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
> there were some past references that pointed to the range
> in Iran as being the place ...
And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:43:46 +0200
From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <f154c3$p99$1@news4.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>
Doc wrote:
> genius@marblecliff.com wrote in
> news:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>>>> pictures and video ...
>>>> http://www.arkfever.com/
>>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>>> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
>>> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
>>> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
>>> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
>>> head off.
>>>
>>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>>
>>> Doc.
>> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>> explain that smart guy ...
>>
>> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>> there were some past references that pointed to the range
>> in Iran as being the place ...
>
> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
Don't be so sceptical. For instace it was no problem at all for the
Kangeroos to hop from Australia to the the Middle East to take their
place in the Ark. The minor problems of the sea crossings were solved by
building rafts. All Australian animal couples joint forces, so that was
an easy task.
>
> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>
>
> Doc.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 07:44:12 -0700
From: BaxterD@tessco.com
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177944252.776348.273680@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
> >> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> >> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> >> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> >> > pictures and video ...
>
> >> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>
> >> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
> >> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
> >> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
> >> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
> >> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
> >> head off.
>
> >> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
> >> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>
> >> Doc.
>
> > watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
> > gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
> > explain that smart guy ...
>
> > most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
> > Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
> > of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
> > there were some past references that pointed to the range
> > in Iran as being the place ...
>
> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>
> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>
> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
important, give him a break!
anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:13:00 +0200
From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <f1512a$5gn$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>
BaxterD@tessco.com wrote:
> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>>>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>>>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>>>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>>>>> pictures and video ...
>>>>> http://www.arkfever.com/
>>>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>>>> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
>>>> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
>>>> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
>>>> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
>>>> head off.
>>>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>>>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>>> Doc.
>>> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>>> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>>> explain that smart guy ...
>>> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>>> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>>> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>>> there were some past references that pointed to the range
>>> in Iran as being the place ...
>> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
>> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>>
>> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
>> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
>> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>>
>> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
> important, give him a break!
>
> anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>
> Dave
>
Oh please, don't you start as well. Suppose Noahs story is true, then
the whole world would have been covered in 27000 feet of water (Mount
Everest is appr. 27000 feet high). Can you please tell me where that
water came from, and where it went?
It may be that the story of Noah originated from the flooding of the
Black Sea bassin. That happened thousands of years ago, and traces of
habbitation have been found on the bottom of the Black Sea. It may well
be that this event lived on in the memory of the people in that area.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 15:20:38 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <Xns9922B06FE8167docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229>
BaxterD@tessco.com wrote in
news:1177944252.776348.273680@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote
>> innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>> >> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>> >> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>> >> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>> >> > pictures and video ...
>>
>> >> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>>
>> >> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>> >> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might
>> >> blow it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they
>> >> do have Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch.
>> >> Just don't wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or
>> >> they'll chop your head off.
>>
>> >> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>> >> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>
>> >> Doc.
>>
>> > watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>> > gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>> > explain that smart guy ...
>>
>> > most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>> > Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>> > of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>> > there were some past references that pointed to the range
>> > in Iran as being the place ...
>>
>> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current
>> biodiversity of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>>
>> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you
>> don't get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the
>> ark is a fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its
>> adherents.
>>
>> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
> important, give him a break!
I'd treat it with some credibility if they were making a claim such as
oldest shipwreck, and I hope they get some real scientists to the site
soon. These Christian fruit-loops that think it is Noah's ark shouldn't
be allowed near anything that might have some scientific significance.
Frankly, Bob's obsession with the Bible being infallible reminds me of
idiots in the Middle Ages thinking they could buy bits of saints. I have
no problem with quiet Christians who treat their faith as a personal
matter. Anyone who tries to convert me can expect the same treatment as
Bob, i.e. ridicule.
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:38:54 -0700
From: genius@marblecliff.com
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177947534.016009.142600@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 11:13 am, Dirk Munk <m...@home.nl> wrote:
> Baxt...@tessco.com wrote:
> > On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> >>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
> >>>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> >>>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> >>>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> >>>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> >>>>> pictures and video ...
> >>>>>http://www.arkfever.com/
> >>>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
> >>>> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
> >>>> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
> >>>> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
> >>>> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
> >>>> head off.
> >>>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
> >>>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
> >>>> Doc.
> >>> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
> >>> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
> >>> explain that smart guy ...
> >>> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
> >>> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
> >>> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
> >>> there were some past references that pointed to the range
> >>> in Iran as being the place ...
> >> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
> >> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>
> >> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
> >> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
> >> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>
> >> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
> > despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
> > credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
> > important, give him a break!
>
> > anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>
> > Dave
>
> Oh please, don't you start as well. Suppose Noahs story is true, then
> the whole world would have been covered in 27000 feet of water (Mount
> Everest is appr. 27000 feet high). Can you please tell me where that
> water came from, and where it went?
>
> It may be that the story of Noah originated from the flooding of the
> Black Sea bassin. That happened thousands of years ago, and traces of
> habbitation have been found on the bottom of the Black Sea. It may well
> be that this event lived on in the memory of the people in that area.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
there is plenty of scientific evidence of a global flood ...
it is believed the earth from genesis to Noah was
tropical. and something triggered this tropical layer
around the earth to change resulting is a massive
rain storm ...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:55:56 +0200
From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <f153iq$pcq$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>
genius@marblecliff.com wrote:
> On Apr 30, 11:13 am, Dirk Munk <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>> Baxt...@tessco.com wrote:
>>> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>>>>>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>>>>>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>>>>>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>>>>>>> pictures and video ...
>>>>>>> http://www.arkfever.com/
>>>>>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>>>>>> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
>>>>>> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
>>>>>> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
>>>>>> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
>>>>>> head off.
>>>>>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>>>>>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>>>>> Doc.
>>>>> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>>>>> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>>>>> explain that smart guy ...
>>>>> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>>>>> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>>>>> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>>>>> there were some past references that pointed to the range
>>>>> in Iran as being the place ...
>>>> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
>>>> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>>>> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
>>>> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
>>>> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>>>> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
>>> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
>>> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
>>> important, give him a break!
>>> anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>>> Dave
>> Oh please, don't you start as well. Suppose Noahs story is true, then
>> the whole world would have been covered in 27000 feet of water (Mount
>> Everest is appr. 27000 feet high). Can you please tell me where that
>> water came from, and where it went?
>>
>> It may be that the story of Noah originated from the flooding of the
>> Black Sea bassin. That happened thousands of years ago, and traces of
>> habbitation have been found on the bottom of the Black Sea. It may well
>> be that this event lived on in the memory of the people in that area.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> there is plenty of scientific evidence of a global flood ...
> it is believed the earth from genesis to Noah was
> tropical. and something triggered this tropical layer
> around the earth to change resulting is a massive
> rain storm ...
>
Dear Boob,
Rain falls from clouds. Clouds are made up from water vapor. This water
vapor originates from vaporizing sea water (mostly) by the sun. It is a
circle, the rain flows back to the sea in rivers. Do you realy think the
atmosphere can contain enough water vapor to account for an extra 27000
feet of water all over the world?
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 09:19:20 -0700
From: BaxterD@tessco.com
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177949960.388119.235510@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 10:44 am, Baxt...@tessco.com wrote:
> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> > >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
> > >> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > >> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> > >> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> > >> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> > >> > pictures and video ...
>
> > >> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>
> > >> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
> > >> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
> > >> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
> > >> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
> > >> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
> > >> head off.
>
> > >> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
> > >> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>
> > >> Doc.
>
> > > watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
> > > gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
> > > explain that smart guy ...
>
> > > most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
> > > Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
> > > of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
> > > there were some past references that pointed to the range
> > > in Iran as being the place ...
>
> > And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
> > of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>
> > Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
> > get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
> > fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>
> > Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
> important, give him a break!
>
> anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>
> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry Guys,
I guess my sarcasm didn't translate too well.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 18:28:58 +0200
From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <f155go$fee$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>
BaxterD@tessco.com wrote:
> On Apr 30, 10:44 am, Baxt...@tessco.com wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>>>>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>>>>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>>>>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>>>>>> pictures and video ...
>>>>>> http://www.arkfever.com/
>>>>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>>>>> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
>>>>> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
>>>>> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
>>>>> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
>>>>> head off.
>>>>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>>>>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>>>> Doc.
>>>> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>>>> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>>>> explain that smart guy ...
>>>> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>>>> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>>>> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>>>> there were some past references that pointed to the range
>>>> in Iran as being the place ...
>>> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
>>> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>>> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
>>> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
>>> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>>> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
>> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
>> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
>> important, give him a break!
>>
>> anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>>
>> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Sorry Guys,
> I guess my sarcasm didn't translate too well.
>
> Dave
>
>
If you don't lay it up thick enough, then even sarcasm looks like the
'normal' kind of sillyness Boob is posting here. :-)
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 17:06:19 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <Xns9922C25AE6F7Fdocopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.230>
Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in
news:f155go$fee$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:
> BaxterD@tessco.com wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 10:44 am, Baxt...@tessco.com wrote:
>>> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote
>>>> innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>>>>>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>>>>>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>>>>>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>>>>>>> pictures and video ...
>>>>>>> http://www.arkfever.com/
>>>>>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade
>>>>>> Iran, you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They
>>>>>> might blow it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust
>>>>>> me they do have Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in
>>>>>> touch. Just don't wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or
>>>>>> shave, or they'll chop your head off.
>>>>>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>>>>>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>>>>> Doc.
>>>>> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>>>>> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>>>>> explain that smart guy ...
>>>>> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>>>>> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>>>>> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>>>>> there were some past references that pointed to the range
>>>>> in Iran as being the place ...
>>>> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current
>>>> biodiversity of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>>>> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you
>>>> don't get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why
>>>> the ark is a fairytale. Although, the former option probably has
>>>> its adherents. Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
>>> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
>>> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
>>> important, give him a break!
>>>
>>> anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>>>
>>> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Sorry Guys,
>> I guess my sarcasm didn't translate too well.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
> If you don't lay it up thick enough, then even sarcasm looks like the
> 'normal' kind of sillyness Boob is posting here. :-)
Dirk is correct, in any thread where you are picking up on material from
Bob you really need to be kinda blunt with the mockery and joking.
I should have realised earlier that the sort of break you were referring
to was between bob's keyboard and the box containing his CPU. :)
After all, we can all pray for that.
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 17:45:25 GMT
From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <59mo9kF2lb84vU1@mid.individual.net>
In article <f153iq$pcq$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>,
Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:
> genius@marblecliff.com wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 11:13 am, Dirk Munk <m...@home.nl> wrote:
>>> Baxt...@tessco.com wrote:
>>>> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>> On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>>>>>>> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>>>>>>>> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>>>>>>>> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>>>>>>>> pictures and video ...
>>>>>>>> http://www.arkfever.com/
>>>>>>> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>>>>>>> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
>>>>>>> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
>>>>>>> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
>>>>>>> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
>>>>>>> head off.
>>>>>>> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>>>>>>> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>>>>>> Doc.
>>>>>> watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>>>>>> gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>>>>>> explain that smart guy ...
>>>>>> most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>>>>>> Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>>>>>> of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>>>>>> there were some past references that pointed to the range
>>>>>> in Iran as being the place ...
>>>>> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
>>>>> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>>>>> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
>>>>> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
>>>>> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>>>>> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
>>>> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
>>>> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
>>>> important, give him a break!
>>>> anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>>>> Dave
>>> Oh please, don't you start as well. Suppose Noahs story is true, then
>>> the whole world would have been covered in 27000 feet of water (Mount
>>> Everest is appr. 27000 feet high). Can you please tell me where that
>>> water came from, and where it went?
>>>
>>> It may be that the story of Noah originated from the flooding of the
>>> Black Sea bassin. That happened thousands of years ago, and traces of
>>> habbitation have been found on the bottom of the Black Sea. It may well
>>> be that this event lived on in the memory of the people in that area.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> there is plenty of scientific evidence of a global flood ...
>> it is believed the earth from genesis to Noah was
>> tropical. and something triggered this tropical layer
>> around the earth to change resulting is a massive
>> rain storm ...
>>
> Dear Boob,
>
> Rain falls from clouds. Clouds are made up from water vapor. This water
> vapor originates from vaporizing sea water (mostly) by the sun. It is a
> circle, the rain flows back to the sea in rivers. Do you realy think the
> atmosphere can contain enough water vapor to account for an extra 27000
> feet of water all over the world?
Well, I see you didn't get the adendum to Genesis chapters 7 & 8.
Prior to the flood the polar ice caps were several miles thick.
Global warming caused them to melt and evaportae into the air at
a very high rate. When 99% of the water was in the air (the
relative humidity was somewhere around 237%) the rains started.
Needless to say the whole world was submerged (except for Noah,
Gilgamesh and some Hopi Indians). Then the aliens arrived from
a very arid world several light years away. They sucked all the
extra water into their flying saucer tankers and went home with
it, leaving us with what we now have.
See how easy it is to explain everything as long as you keep an open
mind. :-)
Now, please stop feeding the troll!!
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 17:47:39 GMT
From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <59modrF2lb84vU2@mid.individual.net>
In article <1177944252.776348.273680@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
BaxterD@tessco.com writes:
> On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
>> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
>> >> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
>> >> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
>> >> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
>> >> > pictures and video ...
>>
>> >> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>>
>> >> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
>> >> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
>> >> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
>> >> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
>> >> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
>> >> head off.
>>
>> >> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
>> >> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>>
>> >> Doc.
>>
>> > watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
>> > gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
>> > explain that smart guy ...
>>
>> > most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
>> > Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
>> > of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
>> > there were some past references that pointed to the range
>> > in Iran as being the place ...
>>
>> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
>> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>>
>> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
>> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
>> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>>
>> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
> despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
> credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
> important, give him a break!
>
> anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>
And "Why is there air?"
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 10:51:50 -0700
From: BaxterD@tessco.com
Subject: Re: Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177955510.433033.27110@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 1:47 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <1177944252.776348.273...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> Baxt...@tessco.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 30, 10:32 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177942485.452799.220270@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> > On Apr 30, 9:49 am, Doc <d...@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:
> >> >> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
> >> >> @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> >> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> >> >> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> >> >> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> >> >> > pictures and video ...
>
> >> >> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>
> >> >> OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran,
> >> >> you've got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow
> >> >> it up or something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have
> >> >> Internet access there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't
> >> >> wear a necktie or pluck your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your
> >> >> head off.
>
> >> >> In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany.
> >> >> Reporters said the candied doorknob tasted good.
>
> >> >> Doc.
>
> >> > watch the video ... petrified seashells at 14000 feet along with
> >> > gopher wood stucture about 400 foot long and 90 degree angle ...
> >> > explain that smart guy ...
>
> >> > most people have always thought that the ark was on Mount
> >> > Ararat, but the bible says it came to rest in the mountains
> >> > of Ararat ... that is plural ... the range extends into Iran and
> >> > there were some past references that pointed to the range
> >> > in Iran as being the place ...
>
> >> And you're such a clueless idiot that you think the current biodiversity
> >> of the planet could be contained in *a boat*?
>
> >> Try collecting two of every insect species in your home Bob, if you don't
> >> get bitten by something poisonous you'll soon discover why the ark is a
> >> fairytale. Although, the former option probably has its adherents.
>
> >> Doc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I don't normally respond to this OT stuff, however I think it is
> > despicable the way you detractors are trying to undermine the
> > credibility of this report. The guy obviously thinks this is
> > important, give him a break!
>
> > anyway, "How long can YOU tread water?"
>
> And "Why is there air?"
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"To blow up Footballs and Basketballs and Volleyballs. Man! Everybody
knows why there's air"
Wondered if anyone would catch the reference.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:33:02 -0400
From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS?
Message-ID: <cuednYWP5O6rkavbnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>
Michael D. Ober wrote:
> "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message
> news:VLedncNAi-RZlqjbnZ2dnUVZ_oCmnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com...
>> Michael D. Ober wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> VMS is the only OS that actually has primitives for OS level memory
>>> management for an application. Examples of these primitives are the
>>> LIB$<tree management> calls. Now look at the market size for VMS - tiny
>>> compared to Unix/Linux, Windows, and Mac. Given this reality in the
>>> market place, programmers have had to worry about memory management
>>> issues.
>> A quick look at the LIB$ VM routines suggests that they don't do anything
>> in the way of GC: they just seem to allow the application to break up its
>> dynamic virtual memory use into multiple heaps and exercise some degree of
>> control over how those heaps are managed (perhaps complete control if it
>> chooses to provide the internal heap-management routines itself).
>>
>> But that doesn't relieve the programmer of deallocation responsibility
>> (nor does it eliminate the potential for memory leaks): it just
>> potentially makes heap management more efficient.
>
> That's unfortunate.
*What* is unfortunate? That the VMS facilities do not do what you
thought they did?
>
>> VMS is certainly not "the only OS that actually has" such primitives.
>> Windows applications have been able to create and use multiple heaps since
>> NT. Even NT heaps used internal allocation-size hierarchies and IIRC
>> look-aside lists for small (often fixed-size) allocations. Win2K and
>> later descendants provide explicit use of the latter (plus other
>> mechanisms) at least for kernel development (though now that I look around
>> they may not have introduced them for application-level heap management).
>> XP introduced the 'low fragmentation heap' for smallish application-level
>> allocations of variable size without requiring explicit definition of
>> multiple lookaside lists.
>
> What Windows has had since version 1.0 is the ability for a process to
> request memory from the system. This memory is added to the process working
> set and then only reclaimed by Windows when either the process explicitely
> returns the exact same memory to the system or when the process exits for
> any reason.
No: it also *manages* that memory as a heap (or, optionally, multiple
disjoint heaps) for the application.
XP's "low fragmentation heap" is simply a heap that the OS
> allocates to the process but never really gives the process the handle to.
> However, even this heap can fragment and require reallocation because it is
> not GC'd.
Of course: I never suggested that it, or any other Windows heap, was GCed.
>
>> In a more recent post you suggest that VMS *does* provide real GC inside
>> the functions you mentioned earlier (which would seem to be others than
>> the ones I glanced at): if so, then the above comments do not apply, but
>> it would be nice to see a more thorough description of what those GC
>> facilities do.
>>
>> - bill
>
> The VMS calls for tree and node allocation are either working from local
> process memory, in which case process level GC is still needed,
So are you agreeing that VMS does *not* provide any GC facilities in
this case (and in fact provides little more than what Windows provides:
while the more detailed user hooks into the VMS mechanisms are
interesting, I find it difficult to believe that they're commonly used -
or even very amenable to being used at all - to implement process-level GC)?
(Or perhaps you're suggesting that the VMS routines at least sometimes
manage *already existing* VM extents in the process. If so, my
impression is that this is incorrect - i.e., that the 'create' functions
always grab *currently unused* process VM regions to use for the heaps.)
or they are
> working from OS level memory and adding and removing that memory to the
> process,
I have no idea what you mean by that.
in which case the OS must perform some level of GC for the process
> or it will run out of address space.
You say it 'must' do this, but do you *know* anything of the kind? My
own suspicion would be that the only interaction between process and
system involved allocating and releasing page-aligned extents of VM
(backed dynamically and transparently by physical memory or page file
as/when necessary) - and that very likely VM is released only in extents
that terminate at the end of the heap's virtual space (though it would
be possible to implement a heap that did not occupy strictly contiguous
virtual space, in which case one could release space from the end of any
of its individually-contiguous segments once such an extent was
completely freed up).
>
> By the way, the way most OS's do process level GC is by clearing out the
> page tables and putting those pages back on the master available page table.
One of us is very confused, I think. If it's me, I'd welcome the
opportunity to learn something here.
- bill
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:04:02 -0400
From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu>
Subject: COPYTREE Question
Message-ID: <f14t0i$olf$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>
I want to copy a directory and all it's sub directories and files from one
server to a new server where the directories do not currently exist.
what is the best way to do this with or without copytree?
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 07:09:40 -0700
From: Ian Miller <gxys@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: COPYTREE Question
Message-ID: <1177942180.000176.120840@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
BACKUP
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:21:00 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: COPYTREE Question
Message-ID: <4636095C.2090707@comcast.net>
Chuck Aaron wrote:
> I want to copy a directory and all it's sub directories and files from one
> server to a new server where the directories do not currently exist.
> what is the best way to do this with or without copytree?
>
$ BACKUP DISK:[DIRECTORY...]*.*;* . . . .
and restore to the new server.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 12:38:27 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: COPYTREE Question
Message-ID: <hL$iPeJn8cP4@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <f14t0i$olf$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>, Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> writes:
> I want to copy a directory and all it's sub directories and files from one
> server to a new server where the directories do not currently exist.
> what is the best way to do this with or without copytree?
>
1) backup the existing tree to a remote savset over DECnet
2) restore the saveset on the remote system
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 11:50:56 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: Free used AlphaServers
Message-ID: <Xns99228CE277B7Edocopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.230>
Tad Winters <stafford.no.spam.winters2@verizon.net> wrote in
news:Xns991F99E273D53staffordnospamwinter@130.81.64.196:
Just to follow up to Tad's offer, I have an AlphaServer 2100 4/275 here
in Belgium that could start some brave soul on the road to being a
hobbyist. [If you want to install Unix or Windows on it I'll have you
burnt at the stake!]
I powered down the system last year when I simply couldn't keep the room
it was in cool enough - and She Who Must Be Obeyed was sick of how noisy
it was too.
The system has only 2*2Gb disks in the array, and no graphics adaptor -
it had been in use with a VT520 as console. This is really a big machine
you want to hide in the cellar and run an ethernet cable to. I bought it
refurbished about 6 years ago.
Free for the taking, and I'll give a copy of what SPL material I have
(not current). I'm approximately halfway between Brussels and Leuven,
you'll need a van and two strong people to collect, and I'll hopefully be
replacing the system with something a little quieter in the near future.
Fortunately I don't have noise problems with Deathrow... It being in
Florida. Dave, for the DS10L draw can I enter as many times as I have
email addresses? (I have a lot of email addresses :-P).
Email address is valid, drop me a line if interested.
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:56:32 -0400
From: norm.raphael@metso.com
Subject: GETQUI consternation
Message-ID: <OFADC757DA.76553CAF-ON852572CD.00463764-852572CD.0047180F@metso.com>
I want to scan a print queue for jobs in the pending state because
of a form_mounted mismatch and display the form needed:
===
$show queue PRINTER1/all/by=pend
Printer queue PRINTER1, idle, on ASPEN::NLP8:, mounted form DEFAULT
Entry Jobname Username Blocks Status
----- ------- -------- ------ ------
1168 D23209_ROUT USER_1 4 Pending
1323 D23209_ROUT USER_1 4 Pending
1405 D23209_ROUT USER_1 4 Pending
1424 D23209_ROUT USER_1 4 Pending
763 587876_ROUT USER_1 5 Pending
===
Form $show queue/full/all PRINTER1
===
763 587876_ROUT USER_1 5 Pending (stock type mismatch)
... /FORM=ROUTINGS
===
What I'd like to display:
===
Printer queue PRINTER1, idle, on NODEA::NLP8:, mounted form DEFAULT
Entry Jobname Username Blocks Status Form
----- ------- -------- ------ ------ ----
763 587876_ROUT USER_1 5 Pending ROUTINGS
===
Can anyone give me the DCL F$GETQUI code sequence to pull this information.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 06:06:35 -0700
From: Ian Miller <gxys@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: GETQUI consternation
Message-ID: <1177938395.652929.300480@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
have a look at dcl.OpenVMS.Org where you will find several examples of
the use of F$GETQUI
http://dcl.openvms.org/search.php?query=GETQUI&what=stories&limit=100
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:34:18 -0400
From: norm.raphael@metso.com
Subject: Re: GETQUI consternation
Message-ID: <OF5B559AA4.1EA2C444-ON852572CD.004C87FF-852572CD.00500BA0@metso.com>
Thanks for the pointer, but...
The first routine that seemed a good start has two DCL syntax errors in it.
Others are so complex as to make easy modification uneasy.
The one that does a Monitor Queue seems not to have a readout for
the stock mismatch form name. Is that variable available?
Ian Miller <gxys@googlemail.com> wrote on 04/30/2007 09:06:35 AM:
> have a look at dcl.OpenVMS.Org where you will find several examples of
> the use of F$GETQUI
>
> http://dcl.openvms.org/search.php?query=GETQUI&what=stories&limit=100
>
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:05:45 -0700
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GETQUI consternation
Message-ID: <1177945545.694075.264840@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 9:34 am, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote:
> Thanks for the pointer, but...
>
> The first routine that seemed a good start has two DCL syntax errors in it.
> Others are so complex as to make easy modification uneasy.
> The one that does a Monitor Queue seems not to have a readout for
> the stock mismatch form name. Is that variable available?
Check the examples in the HELP (VMS V6.2), esp. examples 3 and 4,
(esp. 4). Between that and the DCL Dictionary entry for F$GETQUI you
should be able to do it. It really helps to study the examples. Be
careful with the 3rd and 4th arguments!
[...]
AEF
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:29:41 -0400
From: norm.raphael@metso.com
Subject: Re: GETQUI consternation
Message-ID: <OFEBE6C5A0.65C6FE3F-ON852572CD.005A75BB-852572CD.005A9BB4@metso.com>
Thanks. I got some help offline, and found out the keyword I was looking
for.
It was unclear that the same value applied to the queue for FORM_MOUNTED
and the job for FORM with Stock Mismatch.
AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote on 04/30/2007 11:05:45 AM:
> On Apr 30, 9:34 am, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote:
> > Thanks for the pointer, but...
> >
> > The first routine that seemed a good start has two DCL syntax errors in
it.
> > Others are so complex as to make easy modification uneasy.
> > The one that does a Monitor Queue seems not to have a readout for
> > the stock mismatch form name. Is that variable available?
>
> Check the examples in the HELP (VMS V6.2), esp. examples 3 and 4,
> (esp. 4). Between that and the DCL Dictionary entry for F$GETQUI you
> should be able to do it. It really helps to study the examples. Be
> careful with the 3rd and 4th arguments!
>
> [...]
>
> AEF
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:36:30 -0400
From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Subject: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <98462$46358ebe$cef8887a$1318@TEKSAVVY.COM>
http://news.com.com/Qantas+ditches+Linux+for+AIX/2100-1012_3-6179739.html?tag=ne.fd.mnbc
Article on how Qantas has some stability issues with Linux is is
switching to a proprietary Unix (IBM AIX) that is better supported and
more scalable). (also mention of a Australian company moving from True
64 :-)
Would this be an isolated case, or the start of a trend ? If so, perhaps
VMS (if it were marketed) might have a nice opening for many
possibilities when people seek more robust solutions than Linux.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:47:58 +0200
From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <46359f2e$1@news.post.ch>
JF Mezei schrieb:
> http://news.com.com/Qantas+ditches+Linux+for+AIX/2100-1012_3-6179739.html?tag=ne.fd.mnbc
>
>
> Article on how Qantas has some stability issues with Linux is is
> switching to a proprietary Unix (IBM AIX) that is better supported and
> more scalable). (also mention of a Australian company moving from True
> 64 :-)
>
> Would this be an isolated case, or the start of a trend ? If so, perhaps
> VMS (if it were marketed) might have a nice opening for many
> possibilities when people seek more robust solutions than Linux.
Shure, there are a lot of good things about VMS kernel. However - the
tools are lacking - big time. I expect any former Linux user to utter
his first swear word within the first minute - when he found out how
primitive the DCL "readline" is.
Now, AIX, Solaris etc also have old fashioned tools but you can always
install the GNU tools and be done. On VMS there is GNV [1] - but:
------- SNIP VMS ------------------------------------
>bash --version
GNU BASH, version 1.14.8(0) s4
------- SNIP VMS ------------------------------------
------- SNIP anywhere else --------------------------
>bash --version
GNU bash, version 3.2.10(12)-release (i686-pc-cygwin)
Copyright (C) 2005 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
>bash --version
GNU bash, version 3.1.0(2)-release (sparc-sun-solaris2.10)
Copyright (C) 2005 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
>bash --version
GNU bash, version 3.00.0(1)-release (i586-suse-linux)
Copyright (C) 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
------- SNIP anywhere else --------------------------
Truth is: a bash 1.14.8(0) is not really any better then DCL.
And this is just the command line - it will continue from there. The
problems I have with the OpenVMS implementation of ssh are beyond
description - can't read keys which work flawlessly on other operating
system, won't find keys without "SET DEFAULT", scp fails all the time. A
catastrophy!
Remember that Users very seldom work with the OS directly. It is more
like this:
+-----------------------+
| User |
+--------------------+ |
| Tools/Applications | |
+--------------------+--+
| Kernel / OS |
+-----------------------+
Developers will use compiler, make and perhaps an IDE (is there actually
an IDE for VMS available)
Administrators will use a shell, ssh, database, and perhaps a web server
(is there a Web server for VMS).
Don't get me wrong: I can see that the VMS kernel is superior to almost
everything I have seen up to date but without a mayor re haul of various
tool chains there just is no hope.
And to give you an idea: Solaris [2] recently moved from CDE/Motif to
GNOME [3]. And now compare the Screen shots with the one for VMS [4].
Those dark colours with little contrast, fonts without anti alias - old
fashioned - plain ugly! Think how this will look to a Linux user. Better
not do display a screen shot at all! And in fact - AIX and UP/UX won't
display screen shots on there Wikipedia page.
Martin
PS: If I was making a Screen shot to display VMS I would place Vim
(Gtk-Version, with heavy colourful syntax highlight) into the centre.
[1] http://gnv.sourceforge.net/
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_%28operating_system%29
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:00:00 +0200
From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <4635a200$1@news.post.ch>
Martin Krischik schrieb:
> (is there a Web server for VMS).
I take this back - there is an enormous Apache thread and I should have
had a better look.
Martin
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:27:51 +0200
From: Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <f1497n$b6v$00$1@news.t-online.com>
JF Mezei schrieb:
> http://news.com.com/Qantas+ditches+Linux+for+AIX/2100-1012_3-6179739.html?tag=ne.fd.mnbc
>
> Article on how Qantas has some stability issues with Linux is is
> switching to a proprietary Unix (IBM AIX) that is better supported and
> more scalable). (also mention of a Australian company moving from True
> 64 :-)
>
> Would this be an isolated case, or the start of a trend ?
well, for conservative shops Linux might have stability problems indeed,
just because too many people are introducing new stuff too fast.
This is not necessarily a good thing.
> If so, perhaps
> VMS (if it were marketed) might have a nice opening for many
> possibilities when people seek more robust solutions than Linux.
even if it were true technically,
the robustness of its various parent companies
and their credibility leaves somewhat to be desired.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:46:25 +0200
From: Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <f14aag$q2k$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Martin Krischik schrieb:
>
> I take this back - there is an enormous Apache thread and I should have
> had a better look.
>
Perhaps you should take back a bit more:
a developer of mainly server apps (which is what AIX,HP-UX,VMS, etc
are mostly used these days) would give a damn about the "look".
People choosing a commercial Unix over Linux
(which I would do any day if I had a free choice) certainly
do not base their decision on "the look".
OTOH even "old-fashioned" CDE can be configured to an eye-friendly
colour selection.
At least AIX has the option to install the Gnome or KDE
desktop in addition to CDE, but I'm less than impressed
(overloaden with features I don't need, YMMV, as always with desktop
issues).
And somehow I doubt that Sun has dropped CDE completely in favor
of that other thing, I guess there are a gazillion of apps depending on
it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:35:32 +0200
From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <4635c674$1@news.post.ch>
Michael Kraemer schrieb:
> Martin Krischik schrieb:
>> I take this back - there is an enormous Apache thread and I should
>> have had a better look.
> Perhaps you should take back a bit more:
> a developer of mainly server apps (which is what AIX,HP-UX,VMS, etc
> are mostly used these days) would give a damn about the "look".
> People choosing a commercial Unix over Linux
> (which I would do any day if I had a free choice) certainly
> do not base their decision on "the look".
My point is not about "Look" - it's about "Tools" in general. The GUI is
just one of them. But the one you see first.
> OTOH even "old-fashioned" CDE can be configured to an eye-friendly
> colour selection.
Sure, you need to create a file in sys$login:[DT.PALETTES] ending on .DP
and hex-encode the colours you like inside.
> At least AIX has the option to install the Gnome or KDE
> desktop in addition to CDE, but I'm less than impressed
> (overloaden with features I don't need, YMMV, as always with desktop
> issues).
> And somehow I doubt that Sun has dropped CDE completely in favor
> of that other thing, I guess there are a gazillion of apps depending on
> it.
Sure, all the legacy GUI's are still there.
Besides: I can live Motif but at least once a day I curse the DCL prompt
for not handling tabs or line wraps gracefully.
And the time I lost trying to get ssh to work - only ssh still does not
work as smoothly as it works on Linux, Solaris or ever MS-Window - the
other operating systems I use.
Or that joke of a debugger which does not know about visibility rules.
Want to know the value of a variable better make sure there is not 2nd
variable with the same name in program. Because if there is clicking in
the GUI won't work any more and working out the exact syntax for the
command line is close to impossible. Time lost again!
No it's not about "Looks" - I speak of productivity. But at least I got
Vim - having to using EVE or LSEdit would have been the final nail to my
sanity.
Martin
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 11:31:50 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <Xns992289A533D03docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.230>
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
news:4635c674$1@news.post.ch:
> Michael Kraemer schrieb:
>
>> Martin Krischik schrieb:
>
>>> I take this back - there is an enormous Apache thread and I should
>>> have had a better look.
>
>> Perhaps you should take back a bit more: a developer of mainly server
>> apps (which is what AIX,HP-UX,VMS, etc are mostly used these days)
>> would give a damn about the "look". People choosing a commercial Unix
>> over Linux (which I would do any day if I had a free choice)
>> certainly do not base their decision on "the look".
>
> My point is not about "Look" - it's about "Tools" in general. The GUI
> is just one of them. But the one you see first.
>
>> OTOH even "old-fashioned" CDE can be configured to an eye-friendly
>> colour selection.
>
> Sure, you need to create a file in sys$login:[DT.PALETTES] ending on
> .DP and hex-encode the colours you like inside.
>
>> At least AIX has the option to install the Gnome or KDE desktop in
>> addition to CDE, but I'm less than impressed (overloaden with
>> features I don't need, YMMV, as always with desktop issues). And
>> somehow I doubt that Sun has dropped CDE completely in favor of that
>> other thing, I guess there are a gazillion of apps depending on it.
>
> Sure, all the legacy GUI's are still there.
>
> Besides: I can live Motif but at least once a day I curse the DCL
> prompt for not handling tabs or line wraps gracefully.
>
> And the time I lost trying to get ssh to work - only ssh still does
> not work as smoothly as it works on Linux, Solaris or ever MS-Window
> - the other operating systems I use.
>
> Or that joke of a debugger which does not know about visibility rules.
> Want to know the value of a variable better make sure there is not 2nd
> variable with the same name in program. Because if there is clicking
> in the GUI won't work any more and working out the exact syntax for
> the command line is close to impossible. Time lost again!
>
> No it's not about "Looks" - I speak of productivity. But at least I
> got Vim - having to using EVE or LSEdit would have been the final nail
> to my sanity.
Every once in a while I download and burn a Linux distro to see if
there's one I can use, but from my perspective as a VMS person I curse
the shells provided and the organisation of the documentation. Much
like you seem to be condemning VMS because it is unfamiliar.
I can use vi, vim, and a few other of the editor tools available on a
Linux or Unix distribution, but I prefer my VMS editors - these are
tools I know how to use. I've learned enough to use a Unix system when
I need to work on one, but I prefer not to.
If you personally prefer Linux or Unix that's your choice, get a desktop
PC running that and start up services like NFS on the VMS system. You
can write simple procedures to check code in and out of CMS, or your
system manager should do that for you. As to the debugger, your issues
are unfamiliarity with the application as you admit when you say you
can't use the command line.
As to web servers, there's several. We run WASD on Deathrow,
http://deathrow.vistech.net. That easily survived a slashdotting -
while the ssh and telnet services were getting their version of a
slashdotting too. Oh, and you might find this link useful
http://www.openvms-rocks.com/Help
If you really want to see why some of us are VMS bigots you should look
into things like clustering. Adopting a similar tone as your first post
would have me describing Linux's effort to achieve the same thing as a
solution involving bailing twine and duct tape. But we don't want any
OS wars, do we?
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 04:40:56 -0700
From: genius@marblecliff.com
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <1177933256.937443.28610@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 6:35 am, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
wrote:
> Michael Kraemer schrieb:
>
> > Martin Krischik schrieb:
> >> I take this back - there is an enormous Apache thread and I should
> >> have had a better look.
> > Perhaps you should take back a bit more:
> > a developer of mainly server apps (which is what AIX,HP-UX,VMS, etc
> > are mostly used these days) would give a damn about the "look".
> > People choosing a commercial Unix over Linux
> > (which I would do any day if I had a free choice) certainly
> > do not base their decision on "the look".
>
> My point is not about "Look" - it's about "Tools" in general. The GUI is
> just one of them. But the one you see first.
>
> > OTOH even "old-fashioned" CDE can be configured to an eye-friendly
> > colour selection.
>
> Sure, you need to create a file in sys$login:[DT.PALETTES] ending on .DP
> and hex-encode the colours you like inside.
>
> > At least AIX has the option to install the Gnome or KDE
> > desktop in addition to CDE, but I'm less than impressed
> > (overloaden with features I don't need, YMMV, as always with desktop
> > issues).
> > And somehow I doubt that Sun has dropped CDE completely in favor
> > of that other thing, I guess there are a gazillion of apps depending on
> > it.
>
> Sure, all the legacy GUI's are still there.
>
> Besides: I can live Motif but at least once a day I curse the DCL prompt
> for not handling tabs or line wraps gracefully.
>
> And the time I lost trying to get ssh to work - only ssh still does not
> work as smoothly as it works on Linux, Solaris or ever MS-Window - the
> other operating systems I use.
funny, TCPware ssh2 works just fine ... configures in minutes ...
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 11:54:52 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <Xns99228D8CE5ED2docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.230>
genius@marblecliff.com wrote in
news:1177933256.937443.28610@c35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> funny, TCPware ssh2 works just fine ... configures in minutes ...
And - yet again - you prove you're a clueless git Boob.
TCPware only works because God wants it to.
Or was it the fact that you're too dense to understand what the guy's
problem with ssh is? He wants to use a key, not a password.
Personally I suspect that any/all of the Process staff that lurk in this
newsgroup wish you'd stop mentioning their products and being an
embarrassing associate.
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:52:10 +0200
From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <4635e67a$1@news.post.ch>
Doc schrieb:
> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
> Every once in a while I download and burn a Linux distro to see if
> there's one I can use, but from my perspective as a VMS person I curse
> the shells provided and the organisation of the documentation. Much
> like you seem to be condemning VMS because it is unfamiliar.
help is indeed superior to man or even info. And I not condemning VMS -
I like VMS - I just point out where improvement is desperately needed.
> I can use vi, vim, and a few other of the editor tools available on a
> Linux or Unix distribution, but I prefer my VMS editors - these are
> tools I know how to use. I've learned enough to use a Unix system when
> I need to work on one, but I prefer not to.
No syntax highlight, no folding, no code completion, no tabbed edit, no
code explorer... You don't know what you have been missing the last 15
years.
> If you personally prefer Linux or Unix that's your choice, get a desktop
> PC running that and start up services like NFS on the VMS system. You
> can write simple procedures to check code in and out of CMS, or your
> system manager should do that for you.
Well, exactly what is currently considered here. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNAT_Programming_Studio
Only remote debugging is not supported for VMS - and you need a working ssh.
> As to the debugger, your issues
> are unfamiliarity with the application as you admit when you say you
> can't use the command line.
Oh, I can use the command line. Besides, I can always ask some of the
old timer to help me. Only no one could. No one here - even those with
10+ years VMS experience - could get the command right. I had to change
the name and recompile.
> If you really want to see why some of us are VMS bigots you should look
> into things like clustering. Adopting a similar tone as your first post
> would have me describing Linux's effort to achieve the same thing as a
> solution involving bailing twine and duct tape. But we don't want any
> OS wars, do we?
Sure I am well aware that VMS has better clustering. And I don't like
amount of "bailing twine and duct tape" in Linux either.
Please note that in my first post I clearly distinguished between the OS
Kernel (which I think is great) and Tools (which are lacking).
A bit like have car with a super powerfully, reliable and fuel effective
engine and dull paint and rust bubbles on the door.
Martin
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 06:15:34 -0700
From: AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <1177938934.091476.317260@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 8:52 am, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
wrote:
> Doc schrieb:
>
> > Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
[...]
> > I can use vi, vim, and a few other of the editor tools available on a
> > Linux or Unix distribution, but I prefer my VMS editors - these are
> > tools I know how to use. I've learned enough to use a Unix system when
> > I need to work on one, but I prefer not to.
>
> No syntax highlight, no folding, no code completion, no tabbed edit, no
> code explorer... You don't know what you have been missing the last 15
> years.
And *still* there's way too much crappy software about.
[...]
> Martin
AEF
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 13:37:52 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <Xns99229F0384EDFdocopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229>
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
news:4635e67a$1@news.post.ch:
> Doc schrieb:
>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
>
>> Every once in a while I download and burn a Linux distro to see if
>> there's one I can use, but from my perspective as a VMS person I
>> curse the shells provided and the organisation of the documentation.
>> Much like you seem to be condemning VMS because it is unfamiliar.
>
> help is indeed superior to man or even info. And I not condemning VMS
> - I like VMS - I just point out where improvement is desperately
> needed.
I'm glad to hear you like VMS, despite some bits being a little "crusty".
:)
>> I can use vi, vim, and a few other of the editor tools available on a
>> Linux or Unix distribution, but I prefer my VMS editors - these are
>> tools I know how to use. I've learned enough to use a Unix system
>> when I need to work on one, but I prefer not to.
>
> No syntax highlight, no folding, no code completion, no tabbed edit,
> no code explorer... You don't know what you have been missing the last
> 15 years.
I spend most of my time coding a 4GL and I play with VMS for fun. I
know there are better tools for some types of work on other platforms,
and you certainly have a point that VMS could do with some work there.
I've tried editors that do syntax highlighting and the like, personally I
prefer plain black on white (or orange on black when using a VT terminal
- beware, this make provoke a war over whether green was better than
orange).
>> If you personally prefer Linux or Unix that's your choice, get a
>> desktop PC running that and start up services like NFS on the VMS
>> system. You can write simple procedures to check code in and out of
>> CMS, or your system manager should do that for you.
>
> Well, exactly what is currently considered here. See:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNAT_Programming_Studio
>
> Only remote debugging is not supported for VMS - and you need a
> working ssh.
This is where hp lets the side down, the standard ssh is not
particularly good; on Deathrow we use Multinet which is not based off
the same code as Linux. You can upload and use keys with it,
but they're not in the same format as used on a Linux machine. Mayhaps
the system you're looking at is using Multinet or TCPware and you need
to look into that. We have people on Deathrow using keys, and I've used
SCP to the system with FileZilla without problems. If you grab an account
with us and post a query in the Notes BBS someone can probably tell you
how to set up a key with the system by doing a conversion prior to the
upload.
>> As to the debugger, your issues are unfamiliarity with the
>> application as you admit when you say you can't use the command line.
>
> Oh, I can use the command line. Besides, I can always ask some of the
> old timer to help me. Only no one could. No one here - even those with
> 10+ years VMS experience - could get the command right. I had to
> change the name and recompile.
Someone else could probably better help you with that one, can you give
enough code to explain the issue? There's a helpful bunch of people in
here who'd like to make you more of a VMS convert and improve the signal
to noise ratio WRT on-topic posts.
>> If you really want to see why some of us are VMS bigots you should
>> look into things like clustering. Adopting a similar tone as your
>> first post would have me describing Linux's effort to achieve the
>> same thing as a solution involving bailing twine and duct tape. But
>> we don't want any OS wars, do we?
>
> Sure I am well aware that VMS has better clustering. And I don't like
> amount of "bailing twine and duct tape" in Linux either.
>
> Please note that in my first post I clearly distinguished between the
> OS Kernel (which I think is great) and Tools (which are lacking).
Yes you did, which is why the closest you got to anyone jumping on you
was me. :)
> A bit like have car with a super powerfully, reliable and fuel
> effective engine and dull paint and rust bubbles on the door.
What you're talking about is what you've seen, and you certainly have a
point. However the vast majority of *users* of VMS systems haven't a clue
what is providing the service. Nor should they need to care about it. I
and quite a few other people in the newsgroup would like to see hp taking
note of comments like yours, but the people who control the purse strings
don't seem to be listening.
The VMS people "on the ground" within hp are a completely different
matter. I had a problem with a power cable and mentioned it here. I was
put in touch with appropriate people within the company to file a
complaint about the partner if they didn't sort the issue out. Yes,
that's Sue - and every operating system should have a champion like that
who looks after the users. Management seems to have as much clue about
VMS as George Bush has of diplomacy, sometimes I wonder if it would have
been better if Microsoft bought d|i|g|i|t|a|l instead of Compaq.
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:17:38 -0400
From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <46360892.4090307@comcast.net>
Doc wrote:
> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
> news:4635e67a$1@news.post.ch:
>
>
>>Doc schrieb:
>>
>>>Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
>>
>>>Every once in a while I download and burn a Linux distro to see if
>>>there's one I can use, but from my perspective as a VMS person I
>>>curse the shells provided and the organisation of the documentation.
>>>Much like you seem to be condemning VMS because it is unfamiliar.
>>
>>help is indeed superior to man or even info. And I not condemning VMS
>>- I like VMS - I just point out where improvement is desperately
>>needed.
>
>
> I'm glad to hear you like VMS, despite some bits being a little "crusty".
> :)
>
>
>>>I can use vi, vim, and a few other of the editor tools available on a
>>>Linux or Unix distribution, but I prefer my VMS editors - these are
>>>tools I know how to use. I've learned enough to use a Unix system
>>>when I need to work on one, but I prefer not to.
>>
>>No syntax highlight, no folding, no code completion, no tabbed edit,
>>no code explorer... You don't know what you have been missing the last
>>15 years.
>
>
> I spend most of my time coding a 4GL and I play with VMS for fun. I
> know there are better tools for some types of work on other platforms,
> and you certainly have a point that VMS could do with some work there.
> I've tried editors that do syntax highlighting and the like, personally I
> prefer plain black on white (or orange on black when using a VT terminal
> - beware, this make provoke a war over whether green was better than
> orange).
>
>
>>>If you personally prefer Linux or Unix that's your choice, get a
>>>desktop PC running that and start up services like NFS on the VMS
>>>system. You can write simple procedures to check code in and out of
>>>CMS, or your system manager should do that for you.
>>
>>Well, exactly what is currently considered here. See:
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNAT_Programming_Studio
>>
>>Only remote debugging is not supported for VMS - and you need a
>>working ssh.
>
>
> This is where hp lets the side down, the standard ssh is not
> particularly good; on Deathrow we use Multinet which is not based off
> the same code as Linux. You can upload and use keys with it,
> but they're not in the same format as used on a Linux machine. Mayhaps
> the system you're looking at is using Multinet or TCPware and you need
> to look into that. We have people on Deathrow using keys, and I've used
> SCP to the system with FileZilla without problems. If you grab an account
> with us and post a query in the Notes BBS someone can probably tell you
> how to set up a key with the system by doing a conversion prior to the
> upload.
>
>
>>>As to the debugger, your issues are unfamiliarity with the
>>>application as you admit when you say you can't use the command line.
>>
>>Oh, I can use the command line. Besides, I can always ask some of the
>>old timer to help me. Only no one could. No one here - even those with
>>10+ years VMS experience - could get the command right. I had to
>>change the name and recompile.
>
>
> Someone else could probably better help you with that one, can you give
> enough code to explain the issue? There's a helpful bunch of people in
> here who'd like to make you more of a VMS convert and improve the signal
> to noise ratio WRT on-topic posts.
>
>
>>>If you really want to see why some of us are VMS bigots you should
>>>look into things like clustering. Adopting a similar tone as your
>>>first post would have me describing Linux's effort to achieve the
>>>same thing as a solution involving bailing twine and duct tape. But
>>>we don't want any OS wars, do we?
>>
>>Sure I am well aware that VMS has better clustering. And I don't like
>>amount of "bailing twine and duct tape" in Linux either.
>>
>>Please note that in my first post I clearly distinguished between the
>>OS Kernel (which I think is great) and Tools (which are lacking).
>
>
> Yes you did, which is why the closest you got to anyone jumping on you
> was me. :)
>
>
>>A bit like have car with a super powerfully, reliable and fuel
>>effective engine and dull paint and rust bubbles on the door.
>
>
> What you're talking about is what you've seen, and you certainly have a
> point. However the vast majority of *users* of VMS systems haven't a clue
> what is providing the service. Nor should they need to care about it. I
> and quite a few other people in the newsgroup would like to see hp taking
> note of comments like yours, but the people who control the purse strings
> don't seem to be listening.
>
> The VMS people "on the ground" within hp are a completely different
> matter. I had a problem with a power cable and mentioned it here. I was
> put in touch with appropriate people within the company to file a
> complaint about the partner if they didn't sort the issue out. Yes,
> that's Sue - and every operating system should have a champion like that
> who looks after the users. Management seems to have as much clue about
> VMS as George Bush has of diplomacy, sometimes I wonder if it would have
> been better if Microsoft bought d|i|g|i|t|a|l instead of Compaq.
>
>
> Doc.
PLEASE!!!
If Microsoft had bought Digital, you'd have to run Windows on your Alpha!
Some days it seems as if HP is the worst possible owner of VMS but, if
you really think about it, Microsoft would be worse!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:33:50 +0000 (UTC)
From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <f1528u$1t9$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>
In article <Xns99229F0384EDFdocopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229>, Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes:
>Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
>news:4635e67a$1@news.post.ch:
>
>> Doc schrieb:
>>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in
>>
>>> Every once in a while I download and burn a Linux distro to see if
>>> there's one I can use, but from my perspective as a VMS person I
>>> curse the shells provided and the organisation of the documentation.
>>> Much like you seem to be condemning VMS because it is unfamiliar.
>>
>> help is indeed superior to man or even info. And I not condemning VMS
>> - I like VMS - I just point out where improvement is desperately
>> needed.
>
>I'm glad to hear you like VMS, despite some bits being a little "crusty".
>:)
>
>>> I can use vi, vim, and a few other of the editor tools available on a
>>> Linux or Unix distribution, but I prefer my VMS editors - these are
>>> tools I know how to use. I've learned enough to use a Unix system
>>> when I need to work on one, but I prefer not to.
>>
>> No syntax highlight, no folding, no code completion, no tabbed edit,
>> no code explorer... You don't know what you have been missing the last
>> 15 years.
>
Doesn't LSE (The Language sensitive Editor) on VMS do this sort of thing ?
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
>I spend most of my time coding a 4GL and I play with VMS for fun. I
>know there are better tools for some types of work on other platforms,
>and you certainly have a point that VMS could do with some work there.
>I've tried editors that do syntax highlighting and the like, personally I
>prefer plain black on white (or orange on black when using a VT terminal
>- beware, this make provoke a war over whether green was better than
>orange).
>
>>> If you personally prefer Linux or Unix that's your choice, get a
>>> desktop PC running that and start up services like NFS on the VMS
>>> system. You can write simple procedures to check code in and out of
>>> CMS, or your system manager should do that for you.
>>
>> Well, exactly what is currently considered here. See:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNAT_Programming_Studio
>>
>> Only remote debugging is not supported for VMS - and you need a
>> working ssh.
>
>This is where hp lets the side down, the standard ssh is not
>particularly good; on Deathrow we use Multinet which is not based off
>the same code as Linux. You can upload and use keys with it,
>but they're not in the same format as used on a Linux machine. Mayhaps
>the system you're looking at is using Multinet or TCPware and you need
>to look into that. We have people on Deathrow using keys, and I've used
>SCP to the system with FileZilla without problems. If you grab an account
>with us and post a query in the Notes BBS someone can probably tell you
>how to set up a key with the system by doing a conversion prior to the
>upload.
>
>>> As to the debugger, your issues are unfamiliarity with the
>>> application as you admit when you say you can't use the command line.
>>
>> Oh, I can use the command line. Besides, I can always ask some of the
>> old timer to help me. Only no one could. No one here - even those with
>> 10+ years VMS experience - could get the command right. I had to
>> change the name and recompile.
>
>Someone else could probably better help you with that one, can you give
>enough code to explain the issue? There's a helpful bunch of people in
>here who'd like to make you more of a VMS convert and improve the signal
>to noise ratio WRT on-topic posts.
>
>>> If you really want to see why some of us are VMS bigots you should
>>> look into things like clustering. Adopting a similar tone as your
>>> first post would have me describing Linux's effort to achieve the
>>> same thing as a solution involving bailing twine and duct tape. But
>>> we don't want any OS wars, do we?
>>
>> Sure I am well aware that VMS has better clustering. And I don't like
>> amount of "bailing twine and duct tape" in Linux either.
>>
>> Please note that in my first post I clearly distinguished between the
>> OS Kernel (which I think is great) and Tools (which are lacking).
>
>Yes you did, which is why the closest you got to anyone jumping on you
>was me. :)
>
>> A bit like have car with a super powerfully, reliable and fuel
>> effective engine and dull paint and rust bubbles on the door.
>
>What you're talking about is what you've seen, and you certainly have a
>point. However the vast majority of *users* of VMS systems haven't a clue
>what is providing the service. Nor should they need to care about it. I
>and quite a few other people in the newsgroup would like to see hp taking
>note of comments like yours, but the people who control the purse strings
>don't seem to be listening.
>
>The VMS people "on the ground" within hp are a completely different
>matter. I had a problem with a power cable and mentioned it here. I was
>put in touch with appropriate people within the company to file a
>complaint about the partner if they didn't sort the issue out. Yes,
>that's Sue - and every operating system should have a champion like that
>who looks after the users. Management seems to have as much clue about
>VMS as George Bush has of diplomacy, sometimes I wonder if it would have
>been better if Microsoft bought d|i|g|i|t|a|l instead of Compaq.
>
>
>Doc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:40:28 -0400
From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ?
Message-ID: <qpKdnVy79u-ZgavbnZ2dnUVZ_oOknZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>
Doc wrote:
...
personally I
> prefer plain black on white (or orange on black when using a VT terminal
> - beware, this make provoke a war over whether green was better than
> orange).
Irrelevant, since the *real* problem was lower case. Lower case? We
don't *need* no stinkin' lower case! *Unix* got lower case, and look
what happened *then*!
...
sometimes I wonder if it would have
> been better if Microsoft bought d|i|g|i|t|a|l instead of Compaq.
Microsoft bought Compaq? Perhaps *that* helps explain things: I always
found it difficult to believe that a company like HP could have screwed
things up so royally. Hell, even Compaq was starting to look somewhat
promising until Pfeiffer got kicked out. And HP - well, I knew HP, HP
was a friend of mine, and Compaq? Compaq was no HP - at least I thought
not.
(I've clearly stayed up 'way past my bedtime...)
- bill
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 06:51:18 GMT
From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>
Subject: Multiple VAXcluster (SCS) ports
Message-ID: <GlgZh.20198$Um6.1967@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>
I have a VAXstation 4000/96 with a Nemonix 100Mbit Ethernet card.
It's the only computer in my network with two active ethernet interfaces
which are on the same Lan. The others are either 10 or 100. Does it
hurt performance if SCS uses both the 10Mbit and 100Mbit ports? Might
it try to send traffic over the 10Mbit port to an Alpha with a 100Mbit
port? It makes two circuit connections to all the other cluster
members. Are both interfaces given the same weight?
Vance
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 00:46:22 -0700
From: Volker Halle <volker_halle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple VAXcluster (SCS) ports
Message-ID: <1177919182.818655.285500@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
Vance,
depending on the version of OpenVMS VAX running, you could check with
MC SCACP SHOW CHANNEL or SHOW LAN_DEVICE.
On older versions, you would need to use ANAL/SYS
SDA> SHOW PORT
SDA> SHOW PORT/ADDR=PE_PDT/VC/CHAN
and look for the 'preferred channel'.
OpenVMS should find the 'faster' channel and use it. Newer versions
can split traffic over all available channels. You could also manually
control, which channel is being used by using priorities with SCACP.
Volker.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:24:21 -0400
From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America
Message-ID: <5bidnd7Xi-yghavbnZ2dnUVZ_tqnnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>
CJT wrote:
> Bill Todd wrote:
...
indeed, Dubya is nothing remotely resembling a traditional
>> conservative: 'neo'-conservatives have given traditional
>> conservatives an undeserved black eye (and stomach pains to boot in
>> many cases).
>>
>> - bill
>
> That said, Dubya IS representative of the Republican Party.
I hope that it's not just my desperate search for optimism that makes me
want to disagree at least in part with that.
Yes, he's a hawk - but a recklessly aggressive chickenhawk, not a
battle-tested hawk with isolationist inclinations balanced by legitimate
respect for at least large parts of the rest of the world.
Yes, he talks a lot about 'values', but distinctly racist and wacko
religious values rather than the kind of honest, small government,
individual tolerance/responsibility/sacrifice values I think of (and
indeed grew up with) as traditional (though by no means exclusive)
Republican turf.
Yes, he's pro-business in a way, but with no vision beyond the next
quarter nor any understanding about how the health of our businesses and
the health of our population are intertwined: as long as his cohorts
are doing well, he seems to believe the country is.
Freedom? He's heard of it, and from all appearances doesn't much
approve of it - it's far too unruly. If we built a huge generator atop
Barry Goldwater's grave and could manage to harness him to it
effectively, the world's energy needs might be satisfied for a decade or
more.
And, as you noted, he's a fiscal disaster, cutting taxes with one hand
while doling out unending pork with the other (this perhaps ties in with
the earlier point about apparently thinking that what's good for his
buddies is good for America - and also contributes significantly to
Barry's awe-inspiring kinetic energy.
Are truly a sufficiently high percentage of Americans racist religious
wackos without a shred of competence or conscience that they can
constitute not only a dominant percentage of the Republican party but a
significant percentage of the rest of the population? 'Cause I know
we've got more than I'd like in the Democratic party, and I see no
reason to suspect that the large percentage who don't bother to
affiliate with either are of far higher caliber.
Or have we more just lost our way for a while, and mostly just need
someone with a good map and a clear voice to help us find it again?
I'd be a lot more hopeful if we hadn't been so naughty during this
period of confusion: people have a natural disinclination to face up to
embarrassing truths about themselves (not that they can put off doing so
forever, but that doesn't stop them from trying).
- bill
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 05:01:11 -0700
From: genius@marblecliff.com
Subject: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177934471.470341.112370@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
pictures and video ...
http://www.arkfever.com/
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 05:02:18 -0700
From: genius@marblecliff.com
Subject: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177934538.187090.58490@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
pictures and video ...
http://www.arkfever.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:30:49 GMT
From: Curtis Rempel <curtis@no.spam.here.telus.net>
Subject: Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <dcmZh.14470$JF6.10313@edtnps90>
genius@marblecliff.com wrote:
> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> pictures and video ...
>
> http://www.arkfever.com/
There it is, in Schagen, Netherlands:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/04/28/dutch.ark.ap/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:25:00 +0200
From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>
Subject: Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <f1538t$352$1@news4.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>
genius@marblecliff.com wrote:
> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> pictures and video ...
>
> http://www.arkfever.com/
>
This time Boob is right. What you see on the pictures is the stern of
the ark. On it they found the inscription "Noahs Ark - Monrovia" in
Hebrew. That proofs Boob is not mistaken this time.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:45:18 -0700
From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177947918.748164.16920@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 8:01 pm, gen...@marblecliff.com wrote:
> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> pictures and video ...
>
> http://www.arkfever.com/
Looks like you've hit paydirt this time boob...
Good luck.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 10:28:27 -0700
From: genius@marblecliff.com
Subject: Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <1177954107.703760.69820@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 10:25 am, Dirk Munk <m...@home.nl> wrote:
> gen...@marblecliff.com wrote:
> > the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> > of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> > mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> > pictures and video ...
>
> >http://www.arkfever.com/
>
> This time Boob is right. What you see on the pictures is the stern of
> the ark. On it they found the inscription "Noahs Ark - Monrovia" in
> Hebrew. That proofs Boob is not mistaken this time.
it would be nice to be able to dig all of it out
and confirm it, but when you find a 400 foot
boat made out of gofer wood in the mountain
ranges of Ararat, you seriously need to consider
it ... esp. with petrified sea shells around it ...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:32:08 +0100
From: Anton Shterenlikht <mexas@bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: numerical libraries on integrity
Message-ID: <20070430123208.GA92808@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>
Hello
I just read in the Fortran for OpenVMS user manual that
CXML libraries are not available on integrity, only on Alpha.
Does anybody know what is the suggested replacement for integrity?
Perhaps some of the LAPACK, BLAS, LINPACK, etc are now meant to
be installed via freeware?
thanks a lot
anton
--
Anton Shterenlikht
Room 2.6, Queen's Building
Mech Eng Dept
Bristol University
University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK
Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233
Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 13:07:36 GMT
From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Subject: Re: numerical libraries on integrity
Message-ID: <59m80oF2lkqg1U1@mid.individual.net>
In article <20070430123208.GA92808@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>,
Anton Shterenlikht <mexas@bristol.ac.uk> writes:
> Hello
>
> I just read in the Fortran for OpenVMS user manual that
> CXML libraries are not available on integrity, only on Alpha.
> Does anybody know what is the suggested replacement for integrity?
> Perhaps some of the LAPACK, BLAS, LINPACK, etc are now meant to
> be installed via freeware?
Is NAG still around? :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:00:34 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: SET Security question
Message-ID: <25KZDOSfY9di@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <46328B3B.9040103@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> Is there ANY way a file can be protected against system? Other than
> encrypting it?
> I was taught that "there is no defense against privilege"!
To protect a file against a privileged user there are a few options:
1) encryt it
2) move it to a different computer, where it will be accessable to
different privileged users
3) move it to your hobbyist system where you are the only privileged
user
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:01:13 -0500
From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)
Subject: Re: SET Security question
Message-ID: <+do2w6jXda+R@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <rvSdnSX93L8-X6_bnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
> In this case, it's SYSPRV that would allow access to files using the
> SYSTEM masks. With BYPASS, you would be correct.
>
Or GRPPRV, or a low UIC.
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:11:30 -0700
From: BaxterD@tessco.com
Subject: Re: SET Security question
Message-ID: <1177945890.857955.44040@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 9:01 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob
Koehler) wrote:
> In article <rvSdnSX93L8-X6_bnZ2dnUVZ_j6dn...@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <d...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
> > In this case, it's SYSPRV that would allow access to files using the
> > SYSTEM masks. With BYPASS, you would be correct.
>
> Or GRPPRV, or a low UIC.
another approach which I believe would keep out everyone (except for
bypass and readall, and perhaps security) is to create an IDENTIFIER
and then add an ACL to the file which has something like
(IDENTIFIER=[*,*],NONE)
(IDENTIFIER=<Your_Identifier>,ACCESS=READ+WRITE+EXECUTE+DELETE
+CONTROL)
Not sure what order these need to be in. And then set the file
protection to (s,o,g,w).
Dave
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 07:21:18 -0500
From: briggs@encompasserve.org
Subject: Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN
Message-ID: <wNxAqRVNxwUT@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <paul.sture.nospam-4719D3.00085528042007@mac.sture.ch>, "P. Sture" <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> writes:
> In article <Xns991E61BFF26BAstaffordnospamwinter@130.81.64.196>,
> Tad Winters <stafford.no.spam.winters2@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in
>> news:lawwDA6myWt0@eisner.encompasserve.org:
>>
>> > In article <Xns991DA0A6D3E4Estaffordnospamwinter@130.81.64.196>, Tad
>> > Winters <stafford.no.spam.winters2@verizon.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >> I believe it's caused by setting the width.
>> >
>> > Note that the screen clears even when the width setting is already
>> > correct. Typically I log on with a width of 80, the default
>> > terminal characteristic is 80, and the /width=80 clears the screen.
>> >
>> > I thought about looking to see if the width was not changing and
>> > leaving out /width in those cases, but since all my users tend to
>> > log in with 80 and I have DCL keypad keys defined to quickly change
>> > the width it never seemed worth the effort.
>> >
>>
>> I believe it's a function of the terminal itself. When it receives the
>> sequence for setting 80 column mode:
>> CSI ? 3 l
>> or 132 column mode:
>> CSI ? 3 h
>> it clears the screen. It's probably been maintained by newer terminals and
>> emulators because the early terminals had that behavior. I'd guess the
>> original terminals were like that for technical/economic reasons. If the
>> Wyse terminals can make that optional, others could as well. If it was an
>> option in any of the terminal emulators I've used, I would have set it.
>
> I believe this goes back to VT100 days. Without the VT100 Advanced Video
> Option (AVO), 132 column mode only displayed 12 lines, so clearing the
> screen on a width change was a sensible thing to do.
I've always assumed that this was a symptom of the underlying scarcity of
character cell memory. It wasn't 12 lines in 132 column mode. It was 14.
24*80=1920
floor(1920/132) = 14
The designers probably could have written a routine to re-shuffle the
character cell memory in place, but it would have been tricky. Much
easier just to wipe it. That's my guess as to why it was done.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:44:39 -0400
From: "Richard Whalen" <WhalenR@process.com>
Subject: Re: SNMP agent
Message-ID: <f14rt4$455$1@news.process.com>
MultiNet and TCPware both include a SNMP Agent on VAX/VMS 5.5-2
<apogeusistemas@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1177861568.522575.16050@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hi:
> Is there any snmp agent to VAX?VMS 5.5-2 ?
>
> Thanks.
>
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:47:48 -0700
From: apogeusistemas@gmail.com
Subject: Re: SNMP agent
Message-ID: <1177948068.792204.119340@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On 30 abr, 10:44, "Richard Whalen" <Whal...@process.com> wrote:
> MultiNet and TCPware both include a SNMP Agent on VAX/VMS 5.5-2<apogeusiste...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1177861568.522575.16050@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hi:
> > Is there any snmp agent to VAX?VMS 5.5-2 ?
>
> > Thanks.- Ocultar texto entre aspas -
>
> - Mostrar texto entre aspas -
Is possible get W2K informations (like FS use, temperature, services,
etc)
issuing a SNMP command from VMs to W2K ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:10:22 +0200
From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?)
Message-ID: <4635eabf$1@news.post.ch>
genius@marblecliff.com schrieb:
> On Apr 30, 6:35 am, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
> wrote:
> funny, TCPware ssh2 works just fine ... configures in minutes ...
Well, don't know which ssh out Administrators supplied us with but it
gives me only grieve:
---- Copy File from Windows to VMS ---------------------------
>scp jusched.log krischik@xxxxx:
scp1 compatibility mode is not supported.
Connection to xxxxx closed by remote host.
---- Copy File from Windows to VMS ---------------------------
"scp1 compatibility" - Why - both sides should support scp2!
Or I am asked for passwords even when keys are installed:
---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
>ssh krischik@xxxxxx
krischik's password:
---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
debugging reveals:
---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
debug: SshConfig/SSHCONFIG.C:3193: Unable to open ssh2/id_rsa
---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
Now, "ssh2/id_rsa" is a key file which reads OK on Windows, Linux and
Solaris. Why does VMS alone reject the file?
Martin
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 14:03:06 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: Re: SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?)
Message-ID: <Xns9922A34B1D154docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229>
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in news:4635eabf$1
@news.post.ch:
> genius@marblecliff.com schrieb:
>> On Apr 30, 6:35 am, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
>> wrote:
>
>> funny, TCPware ssh2 works just fine ... configures in minutes ...
>
> Well, don't know which ssh out Administrators supplied us with but it
> gives me only grieve:
>
> ---- Copy File from Windows to VMS ---------------------------
> >scp jusched.log krischik@xxxxx:
> scp1 compatibility mode is not supported.
> Connection to xxxxx closed by remote host.
> ---- Copy File from Windows to VMS ---------------------------
>
> "scp1 compatibility" - Why - both sides should support scp2!
>
> Or I am asked for passwords even when keys are installed:
Don't waste your time with Boob, he wouldn't know an SSH key if you
tattooed one on his forehead.
Ask your sysadmin people which IP stack they are using (there are several
for VMS) and for a link to the documentation. It may be an OpenSSH
server and the key needs converted. It may not even be configured for
operation with keys and you need that enabled.
Doc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:58:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)
Subject: Re: SSH trouble (Was: Has Linux Peaked ?)
Message-ID: <07043010585193_202002DA@antinode.org>
From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
> Well, don't know which ssh out Administrators supplied us with [...]
'ssh "-V"'?
> ---- Copy File from Windows to VMS ---------------------------
> >scp jusched.log krischik@xxxxx:
> scp1 compatibility mode is not supported.
> Connection to xxxxx closed by remote host.
> ---- Copy File from Windows to VMS ---------------------------
>
> "scp1 compatibility" - Why - both sides should support scp2!
'scp -v [...]'?
> Or I am asked for passwords even when keys are installed:
>
> ---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
> >ssh krischik@xxxxxx
> krischik's password:
> ---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
>
> debugging reveals:
>
> ---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
> debug: SshConfig/SSHCONFIG.C:3193: Unable to open ssh2/id_rsa
> ---- Login from VMS to VMS ------------------------------------
>
> Now, "ssh2/id_rsa" is a key file which reads OK on Windows, Linux and
> Solaris. Why does VMS alone reject the file?
0. You key files are probably in the wrong format for VMS, but it's
hard to tell when we don't know which SSH product you're running.
1. We can't see the file.
2. We can't see where the file is.
3. We can't read your mind, either.
If you want real help, try supplying real information. Or call a
psychic hot-line. (Or pray for guidance.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org
382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818
Saint Paul MN 55105-2547
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 05:33:10 -0700
From: Ian Miller <gxys@googlemail.com>
Subject: Three HP Websites Ranked Among World's Best for Online Support
Message-ID: <1177936390.416387.294620@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070430005403&newsLang=en
"Recognizing HP's commitment to providing relevant help and support
information for consumer and enterprise customers around the world,
the Localization Industry Standards Association (LISA) - in
partnership with the Association of Support Professionals (ASP) -
chose HP's Customer Care, IT Resource Center and My ProCurve sites as
three of the "Ten Best International Web Support Sites.""
mmm... They don't mention how hard it is to find things on hp web
sites sometimes
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 06:38:35 GMT
From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>
Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Message-ID: <46359D17.9080306@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>
a.drew7@gmail.com wrote:
> I've got a Vaxstation 3100 model 38 that I'm trying to get working.
> It booted into VMS twice since I acquired it, but a week later it
> refused to start up. Without a monitor, I can only access it through
> the serial printer port and a terminal emulator.
>
> This is the only output I can get from it:
>
>
>
>
> KA42-B V1.5 ?h?,?...E...D...C...B
>
> According to the manual for the Model 76, B is the Memory power-up
> self-test. I don't know if that is any different for the Model 38.
> I've left it there for over an hour with no change.
>
> The diagnostic lights are lit up like this:
> 1001 1011
>
> Any ideas? Am I the proud owner of a VAX-shaped paperweight?
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
B is the memory test for the VaxStation 3100/38 also. The owners
manual doesn't define what the diagnostic lights mean. However, it
looks like some of your memory might be bad. Have you tried booting
without all the modules but only some of them?
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 00:05:58 -0700
From: H Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de>
Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Message-ID: <1177916758.435916.214510@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
On 30 apr, 02:35, a.dr...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've got a Vaxstation 3100 model 38 that I'm trying to get working.
> It booted into VMS twice since I acquired it, but a week later it
> refused to start up. Without a monitor, I can only access it through
> the serial printer port and a terminal emulator.
>
> This is the only output I can get from it:
>
> KA42-B V1.5 ?h?,?...E...D...C...B
>
> According to the manual for the Model 76, B is the Memory power-up
> self-test. I don't know if that is any different for the Model 38.
> I've left it there for over an hour with no change.
>
> The diagnostic lights are lit up like this:
> 1001 1011
>
> Any ideas? Am I the proud owner of a VAX-shaped paperweight?
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
What terminal emulator are you using?
The reason I ask is that it seems unlikely the VAXstation printed a
string like: ?h?,?
F is not used on an M38 so it may be bad memory after all, so follow
the suggestions of the other poster.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 07:36:04 -0700
From: a.drew7@gmail.com
Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Message-ID: <1177943764.091604.270780@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
>
> B is the memory test for the VaxStation 3100/38 also. The owners
> manual doesn't define what the diagnostic lights mean. However, it
> looks like some of your memory might be bad. Have you tried booting
> without all the modules but only some of them?
>
AFAICT, it has a 4MB module piggy-backed onto another 4MB module. I
tried booting with each module alone, and with none, but still
nothing. I assume there's another 4MB on the motherboard, since it
used to report 12MB.
>
> What terminal emulator are you using?
> The reason I ask is that it seems unlikely the VAXstation printed a
> string like: ?h?,?
> F is not used on an M38 so it may be bad memory after all, so follow
> the suggestions of the other poster.
>
I'm using gtkterm on Linux, but I used the same program when it booted
normally. It looks like serial line noise, since the string always
changes.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:33:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)
Subject: Re: VAXStation 3100 M38
Message-ID: <07043011334625_202002DA@antinode.org>
From: a.drew7@gmail.com
[...]
> KA42-B V1.5 ?h?,?...E...D...C...B
[...]
> The diagnostic lights are lit up like this:
> 1001 1011
[...]
A Google search for:
vaxstation 3100 led
found:
http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/3100leds.html
[...]
1001 XXXX The system initializes and power-up testing starts. The
substate variable indicates the subsystem test being
excuted. See subsystem table below.
[...]
1011 MEM
[...]
In case it's not obvious, 1011 = %xB. Sounds like a memory problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org
382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818
Saint Paul MN 55105-2547
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:03:39 +0800
From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>
Subject: Re: VMS 8.2 VMSINSTAL Bug with RUN_IMAGE Persists?
Message-ID: <f1415g$dve$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>
Hi Fred,
> I have to say
Having been aware of your aggressive disinterest :-) in my posts for some
years now, I personally fail to understand the compulsion, but regardless of
what has motivated you to break-cover on this occasion I'm certainly glad
that you're here! (And if you could stay around for one or two questions
later on that EXEC mode lib$*_vmABLE heap then that would be invaluable)
> I have to say that despite the odd chuckle I get when Richard actually
lands
> a bullseye, I for the most part don't read what he writes - because of the
> invective.
Look, no one reads the crap I write. I know this 'cos everytime I pen
something that's the slightest bit "edgy", I have a conga-line of bullshit
artists lining up to tell me how they only stumbled across it due to some
freak alignment of the stars. Maybe I didn't get a bullseye this time but
it's a big wunnnhundredaaandeiiightty! from my point of view 'cos (because
of your reply, and thanks for that) I've come away with what I was after.
Would I have preferred it if you had have replied to my first post - yes.
Would I prefer more friends than enemies - yes. Did I wish I didn't have to
flick your ear and tweak your nose to get the attention my request
deserves - of course. Do I wake up in the morning and say "Let's piss
someone off today" - very rarely.
I do not come here to hear my own voice regardless of how fascinating I find
myself. I come here for a result! And although I certainly don't get one
every time, I do alright thanks very much.
> Participation in COV isn't part of our job descriptions - so I
> don't have to respond to things that are just too far over the top.
> Sometimes it isn't worth trying to pull out the nugget of a question or
> suggestion to address.
Apart from the collective madness that seems to draw all of us here to the
COV well, I think it's fair to say that at least 90% of the people here
(most definately including myself) have VMS's best interests at heart, and
if we can proceed on that premise and are willing to view my art through
that prism then we should get along famously :-)
> Given the other streams of complete time-wasting-stupidity in COV the last
> few weeks, it was easy to overlook. I only went *back* and read it to try
> to figure out what this was all about.
This is the last time that I'm gonna bother defending myself (and is
indicative the level of respect I hold you and Hoff an almost all of the VMS
engineering team in) but just have a look at Google statistics for COV and
see exactly who is contributing what! I'm sorry if my technical questions
are not up to the Jerry Springer confrontationalism that you've come to
expect from COV, but you can alwasy just hit "block sender"
Is it the profanity that bothers you, and that has "Misery" Deninger doing
his Kathy Bates impression?
While I won't contend that contextualised volume phrases such as "useless
wanker" and "pointless knob-head" are exactly terms-of-endearment, they're
hardly an attack on everything you hold sacred in your life either. How did
you get through school if you wanted to fight someone every time they called
you a wanker? (Maybe it was only me that it heard it so often :-)
> I appreciate that Richard is frustrated, but his reaction to the
frustration
> doesn't win him many points.
Probably not; for winning points I rely on loyalty, perseverance, talent,
being the author of the software that will single-handedly turn VMS fortunes
around in the next decade, and of course charm.
> I find nothing in this bullet except a
> insult to all former Digital employees.
I'm not above doing that; I've done it before and I dare say I'll have
occasion to do it again. I have also been known to dish out the odd bit of
praise and grattitude as well you know?
> Feel free to look me up in the source listings.
No need for gratuitous Willy-Waving here Fred. We all know your
contributions to VMS and no one (certainly not I) is questioning your
credentials. (Bummer about DECWindows but eh?)
> The engineer that introduced the problem has retired - and was an
excellent
> kernel engineer and spent a lot of time working with customers issues.
The
> guy who fixed the problem is about as customer focused an engineer that I
> know. Both of whom you would do well to be nice to, one of whom I believe
> reads COV but seldom writes.
I just don't think it is unreasonable for a fix for a known bug to have gone
out in some form of consolidated patch set sometime in the last three or so
years. And for the last time, yes I can be nice to people and yes I like
friends, but respect is a two-way street and I don't give a monkey's about
having enemies either.
> Both of whom you can find in the source
> listings as well.
You gotta learn to let go, you seem bruised or scarred about my previous
attacks on Steve. "Go on - I'll take you all on then" Bittabiffo! You
really shouldn't let someone who is essentially a nobody get under your skin
like this. Ignore me - and I'll go away. Answer my questions - and I'll go
away. What's the big deal? It's a newsgroup; nobody dies here!
> But clearly *we* believe that PCSI is a superior method for someone who
> wants to develop a product installation.
With all due respect, who cares? Tell it to Rdb engineering. What does
Oribble use?
> We invested a lot of time and
> energy into creating something better than VMSINSTAL.
So it's "better" than VMSINSTAL? It's still crap IMHO and not worthy of the
development budget it was given. But who really cares about how you install
software on VMS? I just want you to fix what you break! (What a pain in the
arse that seems to make me)
> The guy who fixed the problem checked it into V8.2R. Backporting isn't an
> issue. The sole issue is that it hasn't been included in any V8.2 patch
> kit.
Is R for Remedial? Has there been no consolidated kit go out since it was
fixed?
> Have you requested one? I searched for the snippet you quote from one of
> "COVs kind souls" and can't find it. So I assume that was from an e-mail.
> Did he report it?
Yes it was an e-mail and the author looked to be away for a while but has
started posting again yesterday. I'm sure he wouldn't have minded being
named, but now that I didn't, I really can't. So hey you - "Did you report
it?". I'll mail him if he doesn't respond.
> To be honest, we try to generate patch kits for the "mainstream"
versions -
> even when the mainstream is sometimes beyond support end of life (like
> V7.3-2). V8.2 falls into the category of "lightly used" - so patches
there
> tend to get generated when a customer requests one.
I don't know why there going 8.2 at this stage, but the main thing is that I
can now fully describe what's gone on so, once again, thanks.
Cheers Richard Maher
"FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com> wrote in message
news:f0npo3$7sp$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
>
> "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote in message
>
news:rdeininger-2504070918250001@dialup-4.233.173.73.dial1.manchester1.level3.net...
> > In article <f0md3l$4qk$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, "Richard Maher"
> > <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Sound about right?
> >
> > Er, no.
> >
> > I'm having my usual trouble understanding your prose. (I don't remember
> > what misjudgement led me to actually read it.) Are you seeking a
solution
> > to a problem or are you just venting? Do you enjoy writing these little
> > ditties that border on hysterical and offensive? So you think a lot of
> > people are entertained by them? Do you think your rants make folks WANT
> > to help you? Have you ever considered that you might get better results
> > asking for help if you weren't a pain in the <anatomy>?
> >
>
> I have to say that despite the odd chuckle I get when Richard actually
lands
> a bullseye, I for the most part don't read what he writes - because of the
> invective. Participation in COV isn't part of our job descriptions - so I
> don't have to respond to things that are just too far over the top.
> Sometimes it isn't worth trying to pull out the nugget of a question or
> suggestion to address.
>
> Given the other streams of complete time-wasting-stupidity in COV the last
> few weeks, it was easy to overlook. I only went *back* and read it to try
> to figure out what this was all about.
>
> I appreciate that Richard is frustrated, but his reaction to the
frustration
> doesn't win him many points.
>
>
> >>1) Digital employees can't help but get all excited over bullshit
concepts
> >>such as "seperating Form and Funtion" or providing IT's Holy Grail of a
> >>"Truly *NON*-procedural" software installation kit. (Yawn)
>
> I don't work for Digital (RIP), I work for HP. Having had to deal with
> VMSINSTAL on both ends (creating installations and installing products) -
> PCSI with all it's faults is lightyears better. While I had nothing to do
> with this particular issue - frankly I find nothing in this bullet except
a
> insult to all former Digital employees.
>
> Feel free to look me up in the source listings.
>
> The engineer that introduced the problem has retired - and was an
excellent
> kernel engineer and spent a lot of time working with customers issues.
The
> guy who fixed the problem is about as customer focused an engineer that I
> know. Both of whom you would do well to be nice to, one of whom I believe
> reads COV but seldom writes. Both of whom you can find in the source
> listings as well.
>
> >>2) No real person shares their bollocks enthusiasm, so we are punished
by
> >>having our Developer's Guide to VMSINSTAL stuffed into the Archived
> >>Documents section.
>
> So you don't like PCSI. It's like complaining that we don't use PIP for
> backup. It isn't like we stopped supporting VMSINSTAL - heck we ported it
> to IPF which is where the bug was introduced.
>
> But clearly *we* believe that PCSI is a superior method for someone who
> wants to develop a product installation. We invested a lot of time and
> energy into creating something better than VMSINSTAL.
>
> >>3) No longer content with merely spitting at us as he walks by, some
> >>wanker
> >>decides that RUN_IMAGE: should actually do an Analyze/Image on the file
> >>first (to see if it is really an image?) (to get that warm fuzzy
> >>feeling?),
> >>but not bother to test it :-(
>
> It was done to determine image architecture when used on IA64. Not
tested?
> Apparently not enough. Or at least not with a kit that used that feature.
> Not really an excuse. But it was hardly done on a whim - it was a TYPO
with
> a symbol name. Frankly it appears that the code had been checked in for
> several *years* before someone stumbled onto the problem.
>
>
> >>4) It get's fixed for 8.3 but he won't backport it to 8.2 'cos that
famous
> >>Digital arrogance tells him that "No one should be using RUN_IMAGE
anyway"
> >>or "Your code was always broken" or "It's a feature" or "The work around
> >>is
> >>to upgrade to 8.3" you little shit of a customer! (Move to PCSI before I
> >>fart in your general direction, you objectionable little man)
>
> The guy who fixed the problem checked it into V8.2R. Backporting isn't an
> issue. The sole issue is that it hasn't been included in any V8.2 patch
> kit.
>
> Have you requested one? I searched for the snippet you quote from one of
> "COVs kind souls" and can't find it. So I assume that was from an e-mail.
> Did he report it?
>
> To be honest, we try to generate patch kits for the "mainstream"
versions -
> even when the mainstream is sometimes beyond support end of life (like
> V7.3-2). V8.2 falls into the category of "lightly used" - so patches
there
> tend to get generated when a customer requests one.
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 29 Apr 2007 23:57:38 -0700
From: H Vlems <hvlems@freenet.de>
Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images?
Message-ID: <1177916258.849309.58810@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On 28 apr, 08:17, John <slawmas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've got a Multia sitting here, not being used, and I'd like to run
> VMS on it. I can find a SCSI disk that'll work (it came without
> drives), but I think that's about the limit of hardware I'm going to
> come up with. I thought the best, simplest thing to do would be to
> find somebody who had a hard disk image for a Multia that I could
> simply copy over to my hard drive. I realize that this image could
> only come from somebody who has just a basic VMS installation, without
> potentially sensitive information, so it's kind of a far out request,
> but do any of you have this kind of thing around?
>
> I'd try installing "the hard way", except that I can't seem to find
> the correct firmware version (I need 3.8-2, right?), I don't have a CD-
> ROM drive... etc. I'm going to have to hack up the one additional
> power cable anyway or attach another power supply outside the box just
> so I can run my hard drive. If you know a better way, please let me
> know.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
John,
I run VMS 7.3 on a Multia. It has a small (2") Toshiba disk inside and
256MB main memory. It came with just 40MB and VMS did not run happily
with that: it crashed after running for about two hours or so. The
Multia runs hot and I read somewhere that it's best used in a vertical
position.
If you like I can make an image backup of the system disk and put it
on my ftp server.
Hans
PS
See http://home.zonnet.nl/hvlems for some information about my Multia
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 09:21:35 -0500
From: wb8tyw@qsl.network (John E. Malmberg)
Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images?
Message-ID: <Z9xc$eANp+Fx@eisner.encompasserve.org>
In article <4634cab1$0$24609$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= <uusimaki@nospam_exdecfinland.org> writes:
>
> Well, this is a problem, because you need a VMS machine with a floppy
> drive to write the files to it.
Or a VMS system with a logical disk of the right size. Then you can simply
BINARY ftp that image around just like you do a CD.
LINUX distributions have tools that can be run on Microsoft Windows to restore
that image to a floppy. And of course LINUX/UNIX should be able to write that
image file to a floppy using the raw device name.
-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 09:27:28 -0700
From: Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com>
Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images?
Message-ID: <1177950448.798513.221910@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>
On Apr 30, 1:57 am, H Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
> On 28 apr, 08:17, John <slawmas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've got a Multia sitting here, not being used, and I'd like to run
> > VMS on it. I can find a SCSI disk that'll work (it came without
> > drives), but I think that's about the limit of hardware I'm going to
> > come up with. I thought the best, simplest thing to do would be to
> > find somebody who had a hard disk image for a Multia that I could
> > simply copy over to my hard drive. I realize that this image could
> > only come from somebody who has just a basic VMS installation, without
> > potentially sensitive information, so it's kind of a far out request,
> > but do any of you have this kind of thing around?
>
> > I'd try installing "the hard way", except that I can't seem to find
> > the correct firmware version (I need 3.8-2, right?), I don't have a CD-
> > ROM drive... etc. I'm going to have to hack up the one additional
> > power cable anyway or attach another power supply outside the box just
> > so I can run my hard drive. If you know a better way, please let me
> > know.
>
> > Thanks
>
> > John
>
> John,
> I run VMS 7.3 on a Multia. It has a small (2") Toshiba disk inside and
> 256MB main memory. It came with just 40MB and VMS did not run happily
> with that: it crashed after running for about two hours or so. The
> Multia runs hot and I read somewhere that it's best used in a vertical
> position.
> If you like I can make an image backup of the system disk and put it
> on my ftp server.
> Hans
> PS
> Seehttp://home.zonnet.nl/hvlemsfor some information about my Multia
Yep, it needs to be in its stand and vertical, with the fan at the top
so convection helps keep it cool. If you don't have a stand improvise
something to hold it vertical with that fan on top. Running flat will
kill it; there's a sensitive and failure prone chip on the bottom of
the main logic board that will fry itself.
You can do a few more things to help it stay cool and survive longer;
I did them on mine way back when and the boxes would run for weeks at
time without problem.
One: cut the lead to the thermal sensor on the main fan; that will
make the fan run at full speed all the time.
Two: Open up the slots in the case where that fan exhausts; the case
slots and holes impose a huge restriction.
Three: don't run a drive faster than 5400rpm internally; 7200s run too
hot and draw too much power.
Four: Risky, only if you are darn careful to never dis/re/assemble
without great care; a friend made a copper heat sink for that bottom
chip with an oval copper spring attached; when the MLB was seated in
the case, the spring made contact with the bottom of the case and
helped transfer heat away from it. Probably more work than replacing
the chip with the better variant though.
If you have the unit with the internal drive tray and no PCI slot or
SCSI port on the back, find an adapter that takes the 50-pin internal
SCSI cable and plugs it into an ISA slot cover with a 50-pin micro-D
connector on the outside; that lets you chain an external SCSI box
like the aforementioned BA353 pizza box; that removes heat and power
loading from the Multia.
IF your Multia has the external SCSI plug and a PCI slot then you are
set. I once found a PCI slot fan that pulled air in from the back
(ISA slot cover) instead of exhausting out that cover and used it in
one such Multia. You do NOT want to use an exhaust fan there since it
will be fighting the convection in the case, and the main fan up top.
I never found another input slot fan but if you can find one it can
really help keep things cooler.
Sorry, I no longer have any of the software or detail info on the
Multia and VMS; we shut down and gave away our Multias in 2005; the
PCI slot fan died in another system, and the drives were re-used on
other boxes. If you're interested in the cooling and vulnerable chip
info, try looking up "multia heat death" or "udb heat death" on
google; the old Alpha linux boards had the relevant info.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: 30 Apr 2007 13:49:37 GMT
From: Doc <doc@openvms-rocks.com>
Subject: [OT] Bob's brain missing. Was Re: Noahs ark found!
Message-ID: <Xns9922A101A8847docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229>
genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177934538.187090.58490
@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> the same researcher who helped bring about the discovery
> of Mount Sinai now believes he has found Noahs ark on a
> mountain in Iran ... scroll to the bottom and look at the
> pictures and video ...
>
> http://www.arkfever.com/
OMG, quick Bob! Phone President Bush and tell him to invade Iran, you've
got to save the ark from those evil Muslims. They might blow it up or
something. Better yet - go yourself, trust me they do have Internet access
there, you'll be able to keep in touch. Just don't wear a necktie or pluck
your eyebrows, or shave, or they'll chop your head off.
In other news, the gingerbread cottage was found in Germany. Reporters
said the candied doorknob tasted good.
Doc.
------------------------------
End of INFO-VAX 2007.236
************************