INFO-VAX Sun, 29 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 234 Contents: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you RE: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha RE: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) RE: Itanium Performance tools Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: OT: Congrats... SNMP agent Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:29:42 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: ... >> (The new Superdomes - and small HP Itanic systems as well - do have >> somewhat better access latency and bandwidth than the originals, but >> they've been available for close to a year now, so that's nothing new.) > > Are they now better than Alpha? No. > > ...equal to, at least? No, just modest improvements over what they used to be. I just thought that this might be what you were referring to, since AFAIK that's really all the improvement there has has been in HP's Itanic memory-access area, and you seemed to think that *some* of the relative deficiency in that area might be 'being addressed'. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:00:56 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: jrandrew@hotmail.com [mailto:jrandrew@hotmail.com] > Sent: April 26, 2007 3:08 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha >=20 > I am interested in running Apache on OpenVMS (Alpha platform), but the > sysadmins I'm working with have told me that they are running on > OpenVMS version 7.2. HP's website on Apache (and their port to VMS, > Secure Web Server) > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_download.ht > ml >=20 > indicates that you need OpenVMS version 7.3-1 at a minimum. >=20 > Is there any way to run Apache on 7.2, or will standard Apache run on > 7.2, i.e. not HP's ported version? What would be some of the issues in > getting Apache to run on 7.2, if possible? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Josh Josh,=20 Is there a reason why you would simply not just upgrade to take advantage of all the latest enhancements related to scalability, security, UNIX compatibility, new HW support, new features etc in recent OpenVMS releases? OpenVMS V7.2 was released in Jan 1999, so using an 8+ year old OS is a bit like asking Microsoft if you can run the latest Apache web server package on Windows NT4. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:57:12 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Message-ID: <4634ce2a$0$90263$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >> I am interested in running Apache on OpenVMS (Alpha platform), but the >> sysadmins I'm working with have told me that they are running on >> OpenVMS version 7.2. HP's website on Apache (and their port to VMS, >> Secure Web Server) >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_download.ht >> ml >> >> indicates that you need OpenVMS version 7.3-1 at a minimum. >> >> Is there any way to run Apache on 7.2, or will standard Apache run on >> 7.2, i.e. not HP's ported version? What would be some of the issues in >> getting Apache to run on 7.2, if possible? > Is there a reason why you would simply not just upgrade to take > advantage of all the latest enhancements related to scalability, > security, UNIX compatibility, new HW support, new features etc in recent > OpenVMS releases? An upgrade to 7.3-2 may be n option, but I think HP should be prepared for a lot of sites that are reluctant to go to 8.x. > OpenVMS V7.2 was released in Jan 1999, so using an 8+ year old OS is a > bit like asking Microsoft if you can run the latest Apache web server > package on Windows NT4. 1) Apache has never been supported by MS. 2) Apache project does not support NT 4, but their notes actually explains which pieces need to be installed on NT 4 to get Apache 2.2 working. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:31:01 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael D. Ober [mailto:"obermd."@.alum.mit.edu.nospam] > Sent: April 28, 2007 5:23 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? >=20 >=20 [snip ...] > > You didn't answer my first question, which was... > > But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? > > > > >=20 > Actually, since I have to process each node multiple times and they > are > being processed by different threads, I don't really know ahead of > time when > the node will be available for reclamation. Even the number of times > each > node is processed is indeterminate - anywhere from 2 to 52 times per > node. > When each thread is done with the node, it simply removes it from it's > local > processing queue. Yes, I could reference count the node as I add and > remove > it to and from the trees and queues used by the program, but this > would > clutter the code with memory management features. Even the basic GC I > described can handle this better and with less chance of error. >=20 > >> > >> Mike. > >> Mike, Something I would like to understand - how did programmers deal with all of this memory reclamation with traditional languages before OO styles of programming were introduced? It seems to me (but willing to be corrected), that all of these GC discussions started when J2EE and .Net OO paradigms were being introduced. I guess I am still grappling to understand why an application needs to worry about memory management in a virtual memory OS design. I can understand this in the case whereby perhaps an OS does not provide virtual memory capabilities, but memory management seems to me the dept of the OS. What happens when you start virtualizing the application that depends on GC under such environments like VMware (e.g. Windows/Linux) or when you start application stacking with other app's on the same system (e.g. OpenVMS)? Thanks, Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:11:18 GMT From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: "Main, Kerry" wrote in message news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684022F2EDC@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael D. Ober [mailto:"obermd."@.alum.mit.edu.nospam] > Sent: April 28, 2007 5:23 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? > > [snip ...] > > You didn't answer my first question, which was... > > But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? > > > > > > Actually, since I have to process each node multiple times and they > are > being processed by different threads, I don't really know ahead of > time when > the node will be available for reclamation. Even the number of times > each > node is processed is indeterminate - anywhere from 2 to 52 times per > node. > When each thread is done with the node, it simply removes it from it's > local > processing queue. Yes, I could reference count the node as I add and > remove > it to and from the trees and queues used by the program, but this > would > clutter the code with memory management features. Even the basic GC I > described can handle this better and with less chance of error. > > >> > >> Mike. > >> > Mike, > Something I would like to understand - how did programmers deal with all > of this memory reclamation with traditional languages before OO styles > of programming were introduced? They did it themselves. Having had to do memory management myself in non-GC environments, I can tell you that manual memory management increases the time to complete a program as well as the (dramatically) complexity of the code. > It seems to me (but willing to be corrected), that all of these GC > discussions started when J2EE and .Net OO paradigms were being > introduced. GC languages have been around since the late 60s or early 70s. However, it wasn't until Java that a fully GC language became popular. Dartmouth BASIC had a simple GC for string variables. > I guess I am still grappling to understand why an application needs to > worry about memory management in a virtual memory OS design. I can > understand this in the case whereby perhaps an OS does not provide > virtual memory capabilities, but memory management seems to me the dept > of the OS. VMS is the only OS that actually has primitives for OS level memory management for an application. Examples of these primitives are the LIB$ calls. Now look at the market size for VMS - tiny compared to Unix/Linux, Windows, and Mac. Given this reality in the market place, programmers have had to worry about memory management issues. > What happens when you start virtualizing the application that depends on > GC under such environments like VMware (e.g. Windows/Linux) or when you > start application stacking with other app's on the same system (e.g. > OpenVMS)? This is why the OS itself should really be doing all the memory management. As I stated in another part of this thread, there are research projects in both academia and industry that are working on OS level GC systems. > Thanks, > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. Mike. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:22:12 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 09:11:18 -0700, Michael D. Ober wrote: > > "Main, Kerry" wrote in message > news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684022F2EDC@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael D. Ober [mailto:"obermd."@.alum.mit.edu.nospam] >> Sent: April 28, 2007 5:23 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? >> >> > > > [snip ...] > > >> > You didn't answer my first question, which was... >> > But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? >> > >> > >> >> Actually, since I have to process each node multiple times and they >> are >> being processed by different threads, I don't really know ahead of >> time when >> the node will be available for reclamation. Even the number of times >> each >> node is processed is indeterminate - anywhere from 2 to 52 times per >> node. >> When each thread is done with the node, it simply removes it from it's >> local >> processing queue. Yes, I could reference count the node as I add and >> remove >> it to and from the trees and queues used by the program, but this >> would >> clutter the code with memory management features. Even the basic GC I >> described can handle this better and with less chance of error. >> >> >> >> >> Mike. >> >> > >> Mike, > >> Something I would like to understand - how did programmers deal with all >> of this memory reclamation with traditional languages before OO styles >> of programming were introduced? > > They did it themselves. Having had to do memory management myself in > non-GC > environments, I can tell you that manual memory management increases the > time to complete a program as well as the (dramatically) complexity of > the > code. Some languages make it easier than others, e.g., in PL/I you can allocate on the Heap or in a FIFO stack, the latter of which has the concept of generations which loosely corresponds to the notion of reference counts, and there are builtins for managing such a stack. I don't agree that it either takes longer, is more complex, in fact I would argue the contrary. Moreover, this requires more engagement in the design and less seat-of-the-pants style of coding. > >> It seems to me (but willing to be corrected), that all of these GC >> discussions started when J2EE and .Net OO paradigms were being >> introduced. > > GC languages have been around since the late 60s or early 70s. However, > it > wasn't until Java that a fully GC language became popular. Dartmouth > BASIC > had a simple GC for string variables. > >> I guess I am still grappling to understand why an application needs to >> worry about memory management in a virtual memory OS design. I can >> understand this in the case whereby perhaps an OS does not provide >> virtual memory capabilities, but memory management seems to me the dept >> of the OS. > > VMS is the only OS that actually has primitives for OS level memory > management for an application. Examples of these primitives are the > LIB$ calls. Now look at the market size for VMS - tiny > compared to Unix/Linux, Windows, and Mac. Given this reality in the > market > place, programmers have had to worry about memory management issues. > >> What happens when you start virtualizing the application that depends on >> GC under such environments like VMware (e.g. Windows/Linux) or when you >> start application stacking with other app's on the same system (e.g. >> OpenVMS)? > > This is why the OS itself should really be doing all the memory > management. > As I stated in another part of this thread, there are research projects > in > both academia and industry that are working on OS level GC systems. > >> Thanks, > > >> Kerry Main >> Senior Consultant >> HP Services Canada >> Voice: 613-592-4660 >> Fax: 613-591-4477 >> kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom >> (remove the DOT's and AT) > >> OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > Mike. > > > > > > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:11:22 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <4634d17c$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >>> And there are numerous J2EE app's designed for mission critical >>> applications that in the end, do not scale anywhere near as high >>> as they were designed for and in the end they start throwing HW >>> at the final solution. >> They should scale great. >> >> Performance is not always as good as it could be. >> >> And HW is usually not a problem in th app tier. What does a HP box >> with two quad Xeon and RHEL cost ? > > These days, HW cost is the smallest cost associated with a > application environment. Its almost a rounding error. Yep. > Especially with > multiple tiers and multiple dev/test/QA environments. Each server > needs to be monitored, patched, licensed etc. - not only for the app, > but also the supporting apps as well e.g. backups, AV, batch, > monitoring/mgmt agents etc. In addition, staffing costs are typically > something like 60-70% of the typical IT budget today. You monitor the app server cluster. Adding an extra cluster member should not increase work. > As I recall (but willing to be corrected) BEA alone charges USD $10K > per CPU (list), Sounds rigtht. It is not that much for an enterprise solution. > Oracle charges USD $40K / cpu (enterprise) and $60K/ > cpu with RAC. That is database not app server. Which means that it is irrelevant for the discussion about J2EE efficiency. > To your question about the HW cost - lets look at real costs for SW > for 2 servers - RH Linux, any vendor box, quad Xeon cpu's. One for > App server, one for DB. BEA WLS - 1 servers x 4 cpu's = $40K (list) > Oracle - 1 servers x 4 cpus = $160K (list) > > So, if we were talking typical J2EE App, RH Linux + BEA WLS + Oracle > RAC = USD $200K for basic SW stack. This does not include support > Apps as well (backup, AV, monitoring/mgmt agents) etc. > > Now, say we needed HA, so we add 2 servers so that we have 2 App > servers + 2 DB servers. BEA WLS - 2 servers x 4 cpu's = 8 x$10K = > $80K (list) (Assume WLS clustering not involved here as I do not know > how much that adds) Oracle - 2 servers x 4 cpus with RAC = 8 x$60K = > $480K (list) > > Cost with HA = USD $560K. And ? It is still irrelevant for the cost effectiveness of adding another cluster member to the J2EE cluster to noting that database servers are expensive. > And for Windows/Linux then you add in the 5-20 security patches per > month recommended by each of these vendors. Now, consider the support > costs of these monthly security patches - will you test your > applications before releasing these patches or blindly install them > and trust (hope) that no problems will occur? I don't hope HP recommend any of their customers to patch the J2EE app servers that frequently. > When comparing OpenVMS vs Windows for example - how many Customers > would put 5-10 separate Windows apps on the same server? With > OpenVMS, this is common place. With Windows if you have 5-10 > applications, you are typically looking at 5-10 servers (many more of > course if you have N-tier in each case) Windows apps and J2EE appe are two different things. > A sure sign of this is VMware virtualization literally flying off the > shelves as companies try and consolidate all their HW. And IDC > recently dropped their expected server numbers due to all the > virtualization activities going on. http://tinyurl.com/ys8dsu (see > VMware notes) > > Will that be a problem for OS platforms or App groups that are used > to one app, many physical servers? > > Yep. So you think that customers will not be using Windows and Linux in the virtualization world ? I think they will. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:19:21 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <4634d35b$0$90270$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > Something I would like to understand - how did programmers deal with all > of this memory reclamation with traditional languages before OO styles > of programming were introduced? Languages without dynamic memory allocation: no problems. languages with dynamic memory allocation: long debugging sessions to find the memory leaks, operational procedures to restart the server every night if the memory leak was not found etc.. > It seems to me (but willing to be corrected), that all of these GC > discussions started when J2EE and .Net OO paradigms were being > introduced. GC is older than those. But it has become mainstream with those. > I guess I am still grappling to understand why an application needs to > worry about memory management in a virtual memory OS design. I can > understand this in the case whereby perhaps an OS does not provide > virtual memory capabilities, but memory management seems to me the dept > of the OS. It has nothing to do with the OS. At least not in any real world system. The way it works for both non GC and GC languages is: * runtime environment allocates memory from the OS * the app allocates memory from the runtime environment GC or non GC is about the last bullet - not about the first bullet. > What happens when you start virtualizing the application that depends on > GC under such environments like VMware (e.g. Windows/Linux) or when you > start application stacking with other app's on the same system (e.g. > OpenVMS)? Nothing in particular. Application A does not care much about whether application B releases memory to the heap because the programmer put in delete/free calls or because the runtime environment provides GC. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 03:52:40 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <1339l9ffq5g0r1f@corp.supernews.com> Michael D. Ober wrote: > "Main, Kerry" wrote in message > news:FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684022F2EDC@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Michael D. Ober [mailto:"obermd."@.alum.mit.edu.nospam] >>Sent: April 28, 2007 5:23 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? >> >> > > > > [snip ...] > > > >>>You didn't answer my first question, which was... >>>But presumably, once you have processed the node you could free it? >>> >>> >> >>Actually, since I have to process each node multiple times and they >>are >>being processed by different threads, I don't really know ahead of >>time when >>the node will be available for reclamation. Even the number of times >>each >>node is processed is indeterminate - anywhere from 2 to 52 times per >>node. >>When each thread is done with the node, it simply removes it from it's >>local >>processing queue. Yes, I could reference count the node as I add and >>remove >>it to and from the trees and queues used by the program, but this >>would >>clutter the code with memory management features. Even the basic GC I >>described can handle this better and with less chance of error. >> >> >>>>Mike. >>>> > > >>Mike, > > >>Something I would like to understand - how did programmers deal with all >>of this memory reclamation with traditional languages before OO styles >>of programming were introduced? > > > They did it themselves. Having had to do memory management myself in non-GC > environments, I can tell you that manual memory management increases the > time to complete a program as well as the (dramatically) complexity of the > code. > > >>It seems to me (but willing to be corrected), that all of these GC >>discussions started when J2EE and .Net OO paradigms were being >>introduced. > > > GC languages have been around since the late 60s or early 70s. However, it > wasn't until Java that a fully GC language became popular. Dartmouth BASIC > had a simple GC for string variables. > > >>I guess I am still grappling to understand why an application needs to >>worry about memory management in a virtual memory OS design. I can >>understand this in the case whereby perhaps an OS does not provide >>virtual memory capabilities, but memory management seems to me the dept >>of the OS. > > > VMS is the only OS that actually has primitives for OS level memory > management for an application. Examples of these primitives are the > LIB$ calls. Now look at the market size for VMS - tiny > compared to Unix/Linux, Windows, and Mac. Given this reality in the market > place, programmers have had to worry about memory management issues. It's interesting that you mention this Michael. The WASD server http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ uses these routines, in part, to address that very issue - having to clean up memory that has been allocated in an *indeterminate* fashion during processing. Without it WASD would have needed to explicitly keep track of every byte allocated (so-to-speak) to ensure that for a long-lived application like a server, memory did not leak too badly. Instead, it uses a number of different VM zones with tailored characteristics established using LIB$CREATE_VM_ZONE to manage heaps associated with various activities of the server proper; dynamic strings, file/data cache, internal data structures, etc. However where this really produces dividends is with the independent zone created for each individual request thread (*not* POSIX threads) that is initiated (and there can be hundreds of these concurrently). The server can LIB$GET_VM against each associated zone as the request threads demand dynamic memory during processing and then in the final stages of request rundown LIB$DELETE_VM_ZONE to return all those sundry memory chunks to the process as a single operation. This simple and efficient application-level VM management, along with the routine internal VM zone structure integrity checking (which occasionally has shown up related bugs in WASD), is an excellent facility! Even very busy WASD server processes, e.g. Uni Malaga http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/other/can_wasd_handle_the_load.html stay up for months, obviously without suffering significant or even noticable memory leaks, largely due to the utility and integrity of the LIB$*VM* routines. UMA WASD has just recently hit 67 days of uptime (not a record), 89M requests and 1.02TB traffic; on an average weekday it handles some 1.5M requests and 18GB data. See section "Memory Management" in: http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/src/httpd/readmore.txt while the code itself can be found at: http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/src/httpd/vm.c >>What happens when you start virtualizing the application that depends on >>GC under such environments like VMware (e.g. Windows/Linux) or when you >>start application stacking with other app's on the same system (e.g. >>OpenVMS)? > > > This is why the OS itself should really be doing all the memory management. > As I stated in another part of this thread, there are research projects in > both academia and industry that are working on OS level GC systems. > > >>Thanks, > > > >>Kerry Main >>Senior Consultant >>HP Services Canada >>Voice: 613-592-4660 >>Fax: 613-591-4477 >>kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom >>(remove the DOT's and AT) > > >>OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > > Mike. -- Gimcrack religions were big business. [Kurt Vonnegut; The Sirens of Titan] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:40:22 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <4634c952$0$7606$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> David Mathog wrote: > genius@marblecliff.com wrote: > >> there are NO second chances ... only the saints return >> with Christ and rule with Him in His kingdom for 1000 >> years, then the final judgement and those whose name >> are not found written in the book of life are cast into the >> lake of fire ... > > Thorazine kool-aid ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:10:19 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pinton@gmail.com [mailto:pinton@gmail.com] > Sent: April 26, 2007 5:02 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Itanium Performance tools >=20 > I'm trying to get greater speeds from our VMS application running on > Itanium. I've had moderate success going from using the lock manager > (sys$enqw) to using spinning bitlocks, but feel there is more to be > gained in other areas too. However, PCA does not have system service > analysis implemented on Itanium and when I use PCA to analyse > processor time in functions, 90% is spent in "SYSTEM$SPACE", which > doesn't tell me a great deal. >=20 > So, does anyone have any recommendations/suggestions on application > performance analysis tools that work on Itanium, please? I'm using VMS > v8.3 (ia64) with PCA v4.9. Re: alignment faults.=20 Here is a pointer to a couple of Tech Journal articles written by Guy Peleg and Ajo Jose Panoor on this issue: http://tinyurl.com/yoy3rk http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v9/alignment_faults.pdf (Guy's article) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v9/fixing_alignment_faults.pdf Ajo's article) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:30:52 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> Ada uses the gnu backend. PL/I is often used in conjunction with other >> languages like fortran and cobol and having the ability to run a common >> debugger is invaluable. Using gnu would preclude that. It is >> exceedingly >> stupid to adapt PL/I to another backend which wouldn't be well integrated >> into VMS, particularly when there is one that already supports PL/I and >> requires very little effort to validate on Itanium. So, go figure. > > > THANK YOU very much for that explanation. I had wondered for a long time > what all the fuss was about with the PL/I issue. > > Now, another question: > > Who now owns/develops/controls GEM ? Does Intel have a say in it, or is > it still very much an HP product ? or does HP still have the right the > the Alpha GEM, but Intel has the IA64 one ? To the best of my knowledge, which may not be at all accurate, BASIC, C, and other languages use GEM, so HP has access to the product. I see no reason for Intel to have acquired GEM, since I believe they use something different. Could be very wrong about this. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 2007 08:05:00 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:09:54 UTC, "P. Sture" wrote: > In article , > "Dave Weatherall" wrote: > > > On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:18:56 UTC, John Santos wrote: > > > > > Farrell, Michael wrote: > > > > There is a "DEL/NOLOG ". > > > > > > > > We use it all the time. > > > > > > $ del/nolog dhdjjshhdskh.sdhhsj;* > > > %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for > > > $1$DIA20:[JOHN]DHDJJSHHDSKH.SDHHSJ;* > > > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > > > > AHA! Now I remember. That's _exactly_ the one that :- > > > > $ message_save = f$environment ("message") > > $ set mess /nofac /notext /nosev/noid > > $ delete stuff > > $ ! optional status checking to catch _unexpected_ errors > > $ set mess 'message_save' > > > > was meant to suppress while I was tidying up. In the case when the > > temp files hadn't been created. > > Given that the OP mentioned several hundred files, I'd put the above > into a subroutine. Exactly. > But coming at it from a different angle, I'd prefer to have a log of the > file deletion handy for problem analysis. Disk and logical names change > over time. > > I don't know if this is feasible without seeing the command procedures > concerned and having knowledge of disk space constraints, but > maintaining a sequential file containing the files to be cleaned up > might be easier than putting extensive modifications into the procedures > themselves. ISTR having done something similar in another of my procedures. Improves 'safety', is quite quick and, as pointed out below, handles the noise issue quite well. > IOW, move the "noise" out of that procedure to somewhere it can be dealt > with separateLY. > -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 2007 08:05:01 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: OT: Congrats... Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:59:54 UTC, Phaeton wrote: > > Congratulations to the Australian cricket team for winning a record > third straight World Cup ! > > More here :-) : > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1909146.htm > > Cheers, Csaba Now had they lost that would have been news :-) Congrats Oz. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 2007 08:46:08 -0700 From: apogeusistemas@gmail.com Subject: SNMP agent Message-ID: <1177861568.522575.16050@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Hi: Is there any snmp agent to VAX?VMS 5.5-2 ? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:41:47 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: VMS on a Multia--disk images? Message-ID: <4634cab1$0$24609$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> John wrote: > On Apr 28, 5:03 am, Uusimäki wrote: >> You'll find the Multia firmware which is needed for running VMS on a >> Multia on the VMS Freeware 5.0 CD's or on the 'net at: >> >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware50/multia/ >> >> There are also installation instructions. >> I have managed to install VMS V7.2 out-of-the-box and upgrade to V7.3-2 >> with some tweaking. It runs fine but slow, as anyone can imagine. >> >> If you plan to use DECwindows, it's best to install at least 128MB of >> RAM or if you can find 64MB SIMM's, use them. >> >> Don't put a very new disk drive inside the box or you run into trouble >> with overheating. The original < 1GB disks drives don't produce too much >> heat, but a 72GB 15k drive will melt the box. >> A very nice storage solution for Multia is a BA353 (the pizzabox with a >> CD drive, one or two disk drives and possibly a (DAT) tape drive. All >> the 1.6" StorageWorks SBB's will fit into the BA353. You can find a >> BA353 on Ebay for $10 or less. If you are lucky, it is fully equipped. >> >> I think it would be the best solution to get a bootable installation-CD, >> which has the Multia-specific drivers included. I might be able to build >> one and send it to you. >> >> Kari >> > > At this time, I do not have access to a VMS machine with a floppy. Is > there a way to write the things you linked from a Linux or Windows > machine? > > A bootable install-cd would be nice, if you could build one for me. > I'm going to try and find an appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive to slap in. > If I were to get such a bootable install-cd with Multia drivers, I > would still need to upgrade the firmware, right? > Thanks > > > John > Well, this is a problem, because you need a VMS machine with a floppy drive to write the files to it. I'm not aware of any method how to write a VMS backup save set to a floppy using Linux or Windows. I'll make a bootable installation CD and make a copy of the floppy which you need for the firmware upgrade. Some other Multia-VMS hobbyist might be interested in those also. I'll let you know by email when it is ready. Yes, you have to upgrade the firmware to run VMS on Multia, because VMS will not work with the other firmware versions. The firmware on the floppy is specially built just for this reason. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.234 ************************