INFO-VAX Thu, 29 Mar 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 175 Contents: Re: a cluster question Re: Alpha systems Re: ENOUGH! Re: FC SAN UDID Re: FC SAN UDID Re: New site for OpenVMS books Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 on DEC 3000/600 with PMAGD-BA Graphics Re: openvms and ODS-5 System Disk Re: openvms and ODS-5 System Disk Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: OT: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:29:33 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: a cluster question Message-ID: briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article <1175017450.156604.11060@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, "Don.Zong@gmail.com" writes: > >>In our case( 3-node cluster) , if expected_vote is 2, quorum = (2+2)/ >>2=2; if expected_votes is 3, quorum is still 2 -- (3+2)/2 = 2, seems >>there is no conflict with cluster theory, any comments on that? > > > Just so. The low order bit in the value of the EXPECTED_VOTES parameter > is irrelevant. As long as you get the right value for QUORUM, you're > in good shape. "2" is wrong, but harmless. However suppose you add a voting node to the cluster (or remove one.) Suppose also, that you don't recheck all the nodes, but just assume the current value of EXPECT_VOTES is correct. (3 nodes, 2 votes, so one of the nodes must be non-voting.) Then EXPECTED_VOTES will be 3 even though there are 4 voting nodes. Quorum will be (3+2)/2, which is still 2, so you could end up with 2 clusters each with 2 votes total, i.e. disaster. If the cluster booted slowly, a "slow boot", the first node will come up with one vote, wait for another node, get the second vote from it and proceed to form a cluster. The 3rd node then comes up, sees the cluster and joins it, raising votes to 3. The 4th node eventually boots, can't find an independent node to join with, but sees the cluster already formed with 3 votes, joins in, and raises the total votes to 4. I think this would then raise the running value of quorum on the cluster to 3, so you would be okay until either you shut the entire cluster down, or shut down at least 2 nodes with the "remove node" option, which would drop quorum back to 2. However, if the cluster booted "quickly", it is possible the 1st 2 nodes would see each other, and the 2nd 2 nodes would see each other and each would form a cluster. Removing a node from the cluster would be worse. If you lowered EXPECTED_VOTES to 1, then each node would form separate cluster immediately when it booted, guaranteeing a partitioned cluster. So good defensive cluster management says "make sure EXPECTED_VOTES is correct." P.S. From the practice what you preach department, EXPECTED_VOTES is currently wrong (but harmless) on my cluster, but I'm expecting a node to go away very soon (RSN), so I haven't bothered fixing it. I really should, though :-) :-) :-) P.P.S. Just fixed it... -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:02:29 -0700 From: "Malcolm Dunnett" Subject: Re: Alpha systems Message-ID: <460ae5a6$1@flight> "Dan Moore" wrote in message news:tdyOh.43041$A53.27044@newsfe13.lga... > Hi David, > > We will eventually port to Itanium. We run our university administrative > systems on OpenVMS Alpha (including online Student Information System, > SIS, & online enrollment on CSWS). Our ERP vendor has already started > moving clients to OpenVMS on Itanium, and we are seeing very positive > results. > Much the same story here. Our Student record and financial systems are in-house applications (we use OSU webserver for the on-line enrollment part ) that run on OpenVMS Alpha. I also have a couple of Oracle servers running on OpenVMS Alpha. I have the hardware in place and will be porting one of the Oracle servers to OpenVMS Itanium this summer. The other will follow at some future point. We've done some preliminary testing of porting our in-house applications to Itanium - so far it looks pretty simple (recompile, link and go). We also have some applications based on Powerhouse. I am waiting for Cognos to release a VMS Powerhouse version that runs on Itanium and supports Oracle. Once we have that I would expect porting the Powerhouse applications will be pretty straightforward. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:45:01 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Message-ID: <460B1A1D.ACFB02BE@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > On Mar 26, 10:12 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > "Richard B. gilbert" wrote: > > > > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: > > > > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > > > >> I can't find any VMS content here between the religious/non-religious > > > >> biased drivel, > > > > > >> I can probably get more search hits on "VMS" by searching the base-64 > > > >> encoded posts in alt.binaries.sex.some.bizarre.disgusting.perversion > > > >> than I can find here. > > > > > >> Thanks and I'll tune in again when everybody can, at least, put OT: on > > > >> these completely OFF TOPIC postings. > > > > > > I think it is many years ago that c.o.v/I-V stopped being a real > > > > technical forum. > > > > > > What HP should do know and what HP/Compaq/Digital should have > > > > done 5/10/20 years ago has long been the dominant topic. > > > > > > If you ask me - the difference between that and a DCL or VMS > > > > sysmgmt questions is bigger than between that and > > > > global warming discussions. > > > > > > Arne > > > > > All these people who know best how DEC/Compaq/HP SHOULD have managed and > > > marketed VMS and how many are president of anything or sit on the board > > > of directors of anything?!?! How many manage to earn $200K/year or more > > > doing anything at all? I include myself, BTW. > > > > ...and your point is? > > > > How many multi-billion dolar companies did Bill Gates found before M$ evolved > > into what it is today? > > How many people found more than one? > > > > > From your 401K or other investment account statement: "Past history is no > > guarantee of future performance." > > Past history? Yes, I know that phrase has been used a lot, but isn't > it a bit redundant? Is there such a thing as "future history"? :-) > > > > > When the presumably educated/accomplished are (Censored)ing up as badly as this > > bunch, a cat with a crayon in its mouth could likely do a better job. > > Better job than what? Building Mircosoft? The context indicated "When the presumably educated/accomplished are (Censored)ing up as badly as this bunch", referring to HP management. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:05:52 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: FC SAN UDID Message-ID: <48yOh.14375$oV.13496@attbi_s21> Mark Iline wrote: > John E. Malmberg wrote: > >> Mark Iline wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know if it is possible to access a Fibre Channel SAN >>> disk's UDID via a SCSI sense mode or set mode command under OpenVMS ? >> >> >> It is not a mode to be set or sensed. >> >> HSG, HSV, and MSA Devices use a Digital Private SCSI commands to read >> / write the UDID. >> >> The MSA and HSV will also allow the SCSI Report Device Identifier >> command to read the UDID. In these cases the value of 0 indicates no >> identifier set. >> >> There are corresponding commands to set the UDID. I do not know if >> they are supported or implemented in the HSG or HSV. >> >> The XP array does not appear to allow the UDID to be set through SCSI >> commands as the UDID is calculated based on other parameters. >> >> Third party devices may or may not allow a UDID to be set. >> >> The Alpha consoles only support using the Digital Private SCSI command >> to obtain a UDID. Integrity systems will support both. >> >> Recent OpenVMS versions will first try the official SCSI command and >> then the Digital private command as a fallback. > > Thanks. I think I had several misconceptions (and there may be several > more where they came from...) > > Am I right in thinking that the UDID is returned in "inquiry page 83h" ? No. Page 83 returns a WWID, IIRC. OpenVMS does not use WWIDs for tracking Fibre Channel Disks, or at least it did not the last time I worked on the SCSI device driver. > That being the case, if a storage controller returns a page with an > appropriate UDID for each LUN in response to the official SCSI command, > that would be enough for recent versions of OpenVMS to configure and use > those devices ? [How recent a version ? 7.3-2 ?] Again, the UDID is not on a mode page. If you need it bootable on Alpha, it must be returned by the Digital Private SCSI sequence, otherwise, it is the first 4 octets in big-Endian order returned by the SCSI Report Device Identifier command. > It's useful to know that the Alpha consoles only use the Digital private > command. That means there's no point in trying to use wwidmgr as a test > of whether a valid UDID is available. It would also make it more > awkward, but not impossible, to boot. > >> Someone in the VMS storage group may be able to give you that >> information. Or if you have access to the source listings, you can >> see what OpenVMS does. >> >> I can not give exact information as all my stuff is in a moving van at >> an unknown location. > > Shame. *If* I'm right on the above, it would be really useful to know > the way that the UDID is laid out in page 83h. I know that OpenVMS engineering has given out that information in the past. It will be probably a few months until I can provide better information. A UDID is only part of the requirements. OpenVMS requires that the SCSI device support several specific mode page settings. If you have redundant controllers, they must emulate to the point of reporting the same device type, or all paths must be active even though currently OpenVMS will only use a single path to a disk. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:30:05 +0100 From: Mark Iline Subject: Re: FC SAN UDID Message-ID: <460B088D.3090904@ucl.ac.uk> John E. Malmberg wrote: [...] >> Am I right in thinking that the UDID is returned in "inquiry page 83h" ? > > > No. Page 83 returns a WWID, IIRC. OpenVMS does not use WWIDs for > tracking Fibre Channel Disks, or at least it did not the last time I > worked on the SCSI device driver. I found this (wrapped a bit): http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru/conan/sys$common/syslib/sys$lib_c.tlb?key=SCSIDEF&title=Library%20/sys$common/syslib/sys$lib_c.tlb&referer= [[[ /* Identification Descriptor contained in Inquiry Page 83 data - Device */ /* Identification Page. */ /* */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_RESERVED 0 /* 0:Reserved */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_BINARY 1 /* 1:Identifier is in binary */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_ASCII 2 /* 2:Identifier is in ASCII */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_VENDOR_SPEC 0 /* 0:Vendor-specific */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_VENDOR_ID 1 /* 1:Based on an 8-byte Vendor ID */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_IEEE_EUI64 2 /* 2:IEEE Extended Unique ID */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_FCPH_NAME_ID 3 /* 3:FC-PH Name ID */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_USER_SUPPLIED 4 /* 4:User-supplied Device ID (UDID) */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_DEVICE_ASSOC 0 /* 0:Identifier assoc. with device */ #define PG83_IDENT$K_PORT_ASSOC 1 /* 1:Identifier assoc. with port */ #define IDENT_HDR$K_LENGTH 4 #define FCPH$C_STD_ID 1 /* Standard IEEE format */ #define FCPH$C_EXT_ID 2 /* IEEE Extended format */ #define FCPH$C_REG_ID 5 /* IEEE Registered Name format*/ #define FCPH$C_REGEXT_ID 6 /* IEEE Registered Extended format */ ]]] Which gave me the idea UDID was in page 83h. >> That being the case, if a storage controller returns a page with an >> appropriate UDID for each LUN in response to the official SCSI >> command, that would be enough for recent versions of OpenVMS to >> configure and use those devices ? [How recent a version ? 7.3-2 ?] > > > Again, the UDID is not on a mode page. If you need it bootable on > Alpha, it must be returned by the Digital Private SCSI sequence, I don't need it bootable. However, the Alpha console seems capable of booting disks without a UDID set. (At least it can return a not valid boot block message.) wwidmgr -show wwid returns a list of paths to drives. Whilst the UDID all showed as -1, you can map (at the console level) a DGA unit number to one of the shown wwids by the item number. b dgaxxx then appears to read the boot block. This is what I'd expect, as Tru64 doesn't require UDID, so the console wouldn't be dependent on them to boot Tru64. > otherwise, it is the first 4 octets in big-Endian order returned by the > SCSI Report Device Identifier command. [...] > A UDID is only part of the requirements. OpenVMS requires that the SCSI > device support several specific mode page settings. If you have > redundant controllers, they must emulate to the point of reporting the > same device type, or all paths must be active even though currently > OpenVMS will only use a single path to a disk. No redundant controllers, so hopefully that won't be a problem. Mark ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 14:46:52 -0700 From: yyyc186@hughes.net Subject: Re: New site for OpenVMS books Message-ID: <1175118412.241141.311590@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 27, 3:22 pm, heal...@aracnet.com wrote: > > BTW, Firefox 1.5.0.6/Linux has some fairly serious problems displaying > the new site. In at least a couple spots there is overlapping text. > There were a few problems initially that I found with Firefox and SuSE Linux 10.2. As of yesterday all problems had been cleared up, at least the ones I could find. Roland ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 20:13:08 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 on DEC 3000/600 with PMAGD-BA Graphics Message-ID: <460acc54$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <1175099572.278365.53020@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, "urbancamo" writes: >I've search the newsgroups but can't get a definitive answer to my >question. Then find out for yourself. You aren't interested in definitive answers. You're interested in your own (special or not) situation... >Will the hobby version of OpenVMS (7.3-1) I believe for Alpha/AXP >install on a DEC 3000 Model 600 with a PMAGD-BA (also known as ZLX-E2) >24-bit plane graphics card? ZLX-E* was IIRC supported (VMS/Open3D), while ZLX-L* was not. I'm not sure, but AFAIK this was similar to ZLXp-E* and ZLXp-L* >From my searches it would appear that I may need to install the Open3D >product to get an X-Window display. If this is the case, do I require >a license for this as it would appear that the standard hobbyiest >license pack does not include a license for Open3D. If I ould require >2D operation, will the base operating system install a working X- >Server for this graphics card. In newer versions of MOTIF, Open3D is not possible (an API has changed forcing your X11 server to loop at prio 6) and therefor shouldn't be installed. As one usually doesn't deinstall VMSINSTALled kits (such as Open3d) properly, you should at best not install OPEN3D at all (means on earlier OpenVMS versions) or don't upgrade your VMS (but install it). So, better install OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 (which has 2D drivers for a lot of the older graphic cards) and forget OPEN3D (and therefor 3D at all). And, yes, OPEN3D required a license for 3D operations (but not for 2D). I never had one and I never had a E2 (only a E1) -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 18:12:21 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: openvms and ODS-5 System Disk Message-ID: Jerry Alan Braga wrote: > Is it finally ok to use ODS-5 on an OpenVMS system disk. We currently use > 8.2 OpenVMS and are planning to upgrade to 8.3 I should hope so, I was using it on 7.3-2, and now on 8.3. Zane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:53:18 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: openvms and ODS-5 System Disk Message-ID: <460B1C0E.2E6E40D9@spam.comcast.net> Jerry Alan Braga wrote: > > Is it finally ok to use ODS-5 on an OpenVMS system disk. We currently use > 8.2 OpenVMS and are planning to upgrade to 8.3 Sure. Why would you want to? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:41:43 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Message-ID: <460afd32$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> genius@marblecliff.com wrote: > On Mar 28, 4:40 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > I was told by someone who worked on the purveyor > development team that purveyor was written for vms > and even more so for TCPware ... It also run (or should I say ran) on Windows NT. > the biggest > difference are all unix web servers are threaded, but > purveyor uses vms processes ... Threads are native for Windows and newer VMS. Forking new processes is (or was) native for Unix. So I do not understand your argument. > and I also notice that > you support purveyor DLLs Do you mean ISAPI DLL's ? (a standard that they developed together with Microsoft !) Arne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 02:13:44 +0200 From: Paul Sture Subject: Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Message-ID: In article <460afd32$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Do you mean ISAPI DLL's ? > > (a standard that they developed together with Microsoft !) > From October 1996: http://www.byte.com/art/9610/sec2/art2.htm '"NT and the Net" (July) provides a good overview of Microsoft's strategies surrounding its Internet Information Server (IIS). The discussion of the benefits of the Internet Server API (ISAPI), however, failed to give credit where credit is due. The interface now known as ISAPI was first developed as a proprietary interface by Process Software ( http://www.process.com ) for its Purveyor Web server for Windows NT. Late last year Microsoft and Process announced their collaboration on an open standard -- ISAPI -- based on the Purveyor API. To both companies' credit, DLLs written to the original API still function under ISAPI using both Purveyor and IIS.' -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 15:40:07 -0700 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <1175121607.543786.281160@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Mar 28, 8:04 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1175080338.368701.51...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > "Andrew" writes: > > > On 23 Mar, 18:57, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <1174665317.173628.319...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > >> "Andrew" writes: > [...] > > >> > In Europe petrol prices are higher > > >> Yeah, that's your government screwing you with really high taxes cause > >> the cost per barrel is the same and it doesn't have to be shipped as far > >> to get to you. Not something I would be proud of. > > > Hardly, most European governments have resorted to using taxation as a > > method of reducing CO2 emissions. I can understand why many people in > > the US would think of this ans a totally alien concept. Say what? Haven't these "petrol" taxes been high for longer than the global warming issue has been hot? > > Probably because it's rather hard to believe. It is much more likely > that they, like our government, know that those who drive, in most cases > (and much more over there where you have a rather good mass transit > system) have no choice. So they have to drive no matter how much it costs. > That is definitely the case over here. I don't drive 25 miles each way > because I love sitting in traffic for 45 minutes in the morning and evening. > I, like most of the people I know, have no other choice. When I have the > choice, I ride my bicycle. Or, now that I have a license again, I ride > my motorcycle. (I rode it today even though most people would think it > still too cold this early int he season.) Well, there are things you can do to reduce your gas consumption: Make sure your tire pressures are up to spec. Avoid jack rabbit starts. Plan ahead so as to combine errands into fewer trips. Don't carry extra heavy things around. Sell that gas-guzzling SUV and get a car that gets better mileage. Be sure your car is not way out of tune. Accelerate moderately. Coast towards red lights. Drive on the highway at lower speeds (yes, I know, *you* happen to get better mileage at 80 than at 50, which I still find hard to believe because the drag at 80 is so much higher than at 50 -- probably double. If you were down to less than 1 gallon of gas in your tank, and the nearest gas station was 30 miles away, would you really drive at 80 to minimize gas consumption? Well, if you *really* get better mileage at 80, then drive at 80!) I admit mass transit is not practical for many, but if it were improved (Amtrak would be an excellent candidate for improvement!), perhaps some people could switch. Yes, the demand for gasoline in the U.S. tends to be inelastic, but it's not prefectly rigid. And in the long run, it might create other changes conducive to lower gas consumption. [...] > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves AEF ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 17:21:53 -0700 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <1175127713.636853.154040@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 28, 5:40 pm, "AEF" wrote: > On Mar 28, 8:04 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > > > > In article <1175080338.368701.51...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > "Andrew" writes: > > > > On 23 Mar, 18:57, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > >> In article <1174665317.173628.319...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > > >> "Andrew" writes: > > [...] > > > >> > In Europe petrol prices are higher > > > >> Yeah, that's your government screwing you with really high taxes cause > > >> the cost per barrel is the same and it doesn't have to be shipped as far > > >> to get to you. Not something I would be proud of. > > > > Hardly, most European governments have resorted to using taxation as a > > > method of reducing CO2 emissions. I can understand why many people in > > > the US would think of this ans a totally alien concept. > > Say what? Haven't these "petrol" taxes been high for longer than the > global warming issue has been hot? > > > > > Probably because it's rather hard to believe. It is much more likely > > that they, like our government, know that those who drive, in most cases > > (and much more over there where you have a rather good mass transit > > system) have no choice. So they have to drive no matter how much it costs. > > That is definitely the case over here. I don't drive 25 miles each way > > because I love sitting in traffic for 45 minutes in the morning and evening. > > I, like most of the people I know, have no other choice. When I have the > > choice, I ride my bicycle. Or, now that I have a license again, I ride > > my motorcycle. (I rode it today even though most people would think it > > still too cold this early int he season.) > > Well, there are things you can do to reduce your gas consumption: Make > sure your tire pressures are up to spec. Avoid jack rabbit starts. > Plan ahead so as to combine errands into fewer trips. Don't carry > extra heavy things around. Sell that gas-guzzling SUV and get a car > that gets better mileage. Be sure your car is not way out of tune. > Accelerate moderately. Coast towards red lights. Drive on the highway > at lower speeds (yes, I know, *you* happen to get better mileage at 80 > than at 50, which I still find hard to believe because the drag at 80 > is so much higher than at 50 -- probably double. If you were down to > less than 1 gallon of gas in your tank, and the nearest gas station > was 30 miles away, would you really drive at 80 to minimize gas > consumption? Well, if you *really* get better mileage at 80, then > drive at 80!) I admit mass transit is not practical for many, but if > it were improved (Amtrak would be an excellent candidate for > improvement!), perhaps some people could switch. > > Yes, the demand for gasoline in the U.S. tends to be inelastic, but > it's not prefectly rigid. > > And in the long run, it might create other changes conducive to lower > gas consumption. > > [...] > > > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > > AEF Oh, and of course, you can cut back on your vacation driving. Summer prices are often higher for gasoline because of summer vacation driving. And if a larger gas tax reduces demand, that means less money for rogue states. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 2007 01:06:59 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <570hpjF2as3g6U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1175127713.636853.154040@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" writes: > > Oh, and of course, you can cut back on your vacation driving. Summer > prices are often higher for gasoline because of summer vacation > driving. Actually, because supply is usually high (once the refineries have cut over the home fuel facilities to cracking gasoline again) summer prices are often lower. But that is where most people over here are making their cut backs. Of course, that has further impact when you figure how many people over here make their living on tourism. Every action has a reaction. > > And if a larger gas tax reduces demand, that means less money for > rogue states. Even with cutbacks demand always exceeds supply so they will have no shortage of funding. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 15:21:55 -0700 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <1175120515.200792.326480@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 28, 12:20 pm, heal...@aracnet.com wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Mar 27, 9:35 pm, Arne Vajhj wrote: > > > AEF wrote: > > > > On Mar 27, 7:09 pm, Arne Vajhj wrote: > > > >> AEF wrote: > > > >>> Pardon my ignorance, please, but why is any using Info-VAX? Under what > > > >>> situation is that better than a newsreader? Are they situations where > > > >>> one can get Info-VAX but not news (other than the HP email device for > > > >>> grandparents who don't want a real computer!) > > > >> Some ISP's only email not a NNTP server. > > > > >> You can pay extra for a NNTP service or you can use the web interface > > > >> at Google, but some may not find any of those attractive. > > > > > Well, I'd certainly take Google Groups over having all this stuff > > > > emailed to me! What's the advantage of getting it as mail? (OK, you > > > > can read it offline, but I thought those days are over, no?) > > > > Different people - different preferences. > > > > Arne > > No kidding. I'm still waiting to hear why anyone wants all this stuff > > emailed to them. You haven't told me anything I don't already know. > > Given the choice between USENET and email I'll normally take USENET. Given > the choice between Google Groups and email, I'll take email. Personally I > *HATE* web forums, and "Google Groups" is nothing more than a web forum > front end to USENET. So how do I get USENET aside from Google Groups? Do I have to pay extra for a news feed and hunt down a client? I guess so. > > Call me old fashioned, but I do all my USENET reading with the same > newsreader (somewhat updated) that I've been using for the last 15 years. > It is terminal based, it doesn't soak up a lot of resources, and it lets me > use an editor that I've been using for even longer. More importantly my > access using this "light weight" solution is far faster than it would be if > I was using "Google Groups". When was the last time you tried Google Groups? Yeah, it sucks in many ways, but it's very fast for a while now. Posts post in seconds, literally. And it's free, and it's the same at work, and at home, and at a friend's. > > I do use email to read INFO-pdp11/vmsnet.pdp-11, but that is in part due to > my USENET provider not carrying the vmsnet hierarchy for a couple years. > Oddly enough they just started carrying it again. > > Both USENET and email offer a key advantage over any form of "Web Forum", > they allow you to use your own client, and as such it is typically easier > and faster to use. What clients would you recommend for Windows and Mac? (I'm strongly considering getting a Mac sometime soon.) > > I participate in a couple of very active web forums, however, there isn't an > active mailing list or USENET group for either. Both are also non-related > to computers. > > Zane AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:36:48 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <460aef86$0$14416$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Since we are discussing rules of engagement here, does this mean that the Geneva Convention applies to this battle of wits in COV ? If so, I would like to remind everyone that duct taping prisoners and threathening then with Dave Froble's baseball bats would not be allowed :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:36:13 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <5704ieF2aam8rU1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-03-28 15:26, "Bill Gunshannon" wrote: > news.individual.de ".net" for international users. > Costs less per year than a case of beer. 10 EUR (about 13 USD) to be exact. Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 11:43:57 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Message-ID: <1175107437.717662.81060@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 28, 3:15 pm, Paul Sture wrote: > In article , heal...@aracnet.com wrote: > > Paul Sture wrote: > > > I was using them until about a year ago, and don't remember any > > > performance problems. I did however find that the Mac version of Opera > > > was unacceptably slow for news reading. > > > I've found that the state of GUI based newsreaders on the Mac is uniformly > > bad. They all seem to have at least one thing that I dislike. Sadly this > > is one area where I consider Windows to easily beat the Mac. However, since > > you can run Unix applications, you do have access to some nice terminal > > based newsreaders. > > Understood. Now if I could find a better terminal emulator for OS X ... > > -- > Paul Sture BTW, have you tried Unison from Panic, Inc. It's not free, but it's not that expensive (US$24.95). 15-day limit free demo and reduced functionality after that. John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 18:46:05 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Message-ID: <56vrfdF2ai3ctU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Paul Sture writes: > In article , healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > >> Paul Sture wrote: >> > I was using them until about a year ago, and don't remember any >> > performance problems. I did however find that the Mac version of Opera >> > was unacceptably slow for news reading. >> >> I've found that the state of GUI based newsreaders on the Mac is uniformly >> bad. They all seem to have at least one thing that I dislike. Sadly this >> is one area where I consider Windows to easily beat the Mac. However, since >> you can run Unix applications, you do have access to some nice terminal >> based newsreaders. >> > > Understood. Now if I could find a better terminal emulator for OS X ... Have you looked at putty? I have no idea how it work on a MAc, but it seems to work OK on PC's. Of course I also haven't tried it with any program as terminal dependant as, say, LSE. But it is definitely beter than Xterm. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 11:55:24 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Message-ID: <1175108124.879993.31370@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 28, 2:46 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > Paul Sture writes: > > > In article , heal...@aracnet.com wrote: > > >> Paul Sture wrote: > >> > I was using them until about a year ago, and don't remember any > >> > performance problems. I did however find that the Mac version of Opera > >> > was unacceptably slow for news reading. > > >> I've found that the state of GUI based newsreaders on the Mac is uniformly > >> bad. They all seem to have at least one thing that I dislike. Sadly this > >> is one area where I consider Windows to easily beat the Mac. However, since > >> you can run Unix applications, you do have access to some nice terminal > >> based newsreaders. > > > Understood. Now if I could find a better terminal emulator for OS X ... > > Have you looked at putty? I have no idea how it work on a MAc, but it > seems to work OK on PC's. Of course I also haven't tried it with any > program as terminal dependant as, say, LSE. But it is definitely beter > than Xterm. :-) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include PuTTY is nice. I use it at work on the PC I have to use. However, it is not available natively (yet) for OS X. From the PuTTY FAQ: A.3.6 Will there be a port to the Mac? There are several answers to this question: * The Unix/Gtk port is already fully working under Mac OS X as an X11 application. * A native (Cocoa) Mac OS X port has been started. It's just about usable, but is of nowhere near release quality yet, and is likely to behave in unexpected ways. Currently it's unlikely to be completed unless someone steps in to help. * A separate port to the classic Mac OS (pre-OSX) is also in progress; it too is not ready yet. I've not looked at (or found) the Unix/Gtk port yet, but since it's an X11 app and not geared toward OS X I'd assume it involves building from scratch, finding various Unix libraries and maybe installing Fink. John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 19:09:41 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Message-ID: <56vsrkF2aq9h9U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1175108124.879993.31370@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes: > On Mar 28, 2:46 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> Paul Sture writes: >> >> > In article , heal...@aracnet.com wrote: >> >> >> Paul Sture wrote: >> >> > I was using them until about a year ago, and don't remember any >> >> > performance problems. I did however find that the Mac version of Opera >> >> > was unacceptably slow for news reading. >> >> >> I've found that the state of GUI based newsreaders on the Mac is uniformly >> >> bad. They all seem to have at least one thing that I dislike. Sadly this >> >> is one area where I consider Windows to easily beat the Mac. However, since >> >> you can run Unix applications, you do have access to some nice terminal >> >> based newsreaders. >> >> > Understood. Now if I could find a better terminal emulator for OS X ... >> >> Have you looked at putty? I have no idea how it work on a MAc, but it >> seems to work OK on PC's. Of course I also haven't tried it with any >> program as terminal dependant as, say, LSE. But it is definitely beter >> than Xterm. :-) >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >> b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > > PuTTY is nice. I use it at work on the PC I have to use. However, it > is not available natively (yet) for OS X. From the PuTTY FAQ: > > A.3.6 Will there be a port to the Mac? > > There are several answers to this question: > > * The Unix/Gtk port is already fully working under Mac OS X as an > X11 application. > * A native (Cocoa) Mac OS X port has been started. It's just about > usable, but is of nowhere near release quality yet, and is likely to > behave in unexpected ways. Currently it's unlikely to be completed > unless someone steps in to help. > * A separate port to the classic Mac OS (pre-OSX) is also in > progress; it too is not ready yet. > > I've not looked at (or found) the Unix/Gtk port yet, but since it's an > X11 app and not geared toward OS X I'd assume it involves building > from scratch, finding various Unix libraries and maybe installing > Fink. > Well, I'm not a Mac user but we have one fan here on the faculty. He just sent something tothe printer dated 26 March 200 that claims to be instructions for "putty version 0.56 for Mac OS X". Might be worth taking another look. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:13:44 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: Mark Daniel wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >> Mark Daniel wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> My regrets over sounding like a weasle-wording moralizer. >> >> >> No problem: those of us with differing opinions likely won't pay any >> more attention to yours than you seem to be paying to ours. >> >> But just in case you're able to accept a clue when offered one: the > > Argumentum ad hominem - used all too frequently in this one-time > technical forum. > >> problem is simple - c.o.v. doesn't have nearly enough technical volume >> to keep large portions of its denizens interested. Most of us stick >> around not because there's anything significant going on here but just >> in case there might be (and those without great patience and/or >> optimism in this regard left long ago). >> >> So when something interesting even if off-topic comes along, it's >> entirely natural for such people (who formed a community long ago) to >> bat it around. If you don't like it, just ignore it - just as others >> of us manage to ignore areas that we don't find relevant (that, by the >> way, is also a form of discipline - I've never needed any help from >> killfiles or similar mechanisms to ignore subjects, or people, I found >> uninteresting). >> >> Or not. But don't expect your personal preferences to govern the >> conduct of others, or to be respected any more than you respect those >> of others. A lot of us have been around here for long enough that >> we're entirely comfortable making our own decisions about how to >> interact, thank you - and it's crystal-clear that a non-negligible >> portion of the populace (those threads you've got a hair across your >> ass about have *lots* of contributors) just plain don't agree with you >> and aren't in the least bothered by that. >> >> - bill > > My mistake. The original posting sounded like a request for comment. Indeed. And your mistake was, rather than commenting productively about possible solutions, to choose merely to add - with extensive editorializing - to the '"this is a technical forum" whining' that the original post had already observed as being part of the problem. - bill ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.175 ************************