INFO-VAX Wed, 28 Mar 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 174 Contents: Re: a cluster question Re: AC-6 Least Privilege (was: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best) Re: Capturing and using NT login for security with Apache Re: Capturing and using NT login for security with Apache Re: Capturing and using NT login for security with Apache COV: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: ENOUGH! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Latest bzip2 kit (Are you at 130.83.236.10?) Re: Latest bzip2 kit (Are you at 130.83.236.10?) OpenVMS 7.3-1 on DEC 3000/600 with PMAGD-BA Graphics Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:42:27 GMT From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: a cluster question Message-ID: Ken Fairfield wrote: > Also note that in situations where you might, for any > number of reasons, want to boot just one node and not > the other nodes, it is easy to do a conversational > boot and set expected_votes to 1 *for that boot*. ... by setting the pseudo-parameter WRITESYSPARAMS to 0 at the SYSBOOT> prompt, which prevents the lowered value from being written to the CURRENT parameters later in the VMS boot sequence, thus preserving the protective value of the higher EXPECTED_VOTES value there. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 07:18:43 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: AC-6 Least Privilege (was: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best) Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > > Not according to the principle of Least Privilege. They don't need > READALL to release a batch job, and batch jobs are the best way to > ensure consistent backups. If that were an option, I'd have used it. I've been using it for years on the systems that I set up and manage. > > Of course turning on auditing (another 800-53 requirement) would also do. VMS 2.5 didn't have such good auditing. But it did leave the privileged users UIC on the file, which both caused a problem for the non-privileged user and pointed to the account which caused the problem. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 07:39:50 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Capturing and using NT login for security with Apache Message-ID: In article <1175033141.931371.74320@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, "mecograph" writes: > > I am required to add security to these pages so that only a select > group of employees can view them. I'm wondering if there is any way > that the network login that the customers use to login to their > windows session can be captured by Apache when the web page is > requested and validated using security on the VMS directory where the > web page resides. Most web servers control access via an .htaccess file. Your server probably has a similar mechansim. This is one which all the web browsers no how to deal with. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:14:23 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Capturing and using NT login for security with Apache Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:25:59 -0800, Doc wrote: > "mecograph" wrote in > news:1175033141.931371.74320@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> This will probably be the oddest question asked this month. >> >> I have created some web pages that are presented to my customers using >> the Apache web server on VMS. My customers will be using a shortcut >> on their Windows desktop (or a "favorite" in their Internet Explorer >> browser) to retrieve these pages from VMS using Apache. >> >> I am required to add security to these pages so that only a select >> group of employees can view them. I'm wondering if there is any way >> that the network login that the customers use to login to their >> windows session can be captured by Apache when the web page is >> requested and validated using security on the VMS directory where the >> web page resides. >> >> In other words, can I test for the NT login (or some other flag to >> distinguish who is requesting the page) and use that information to >> restrict access to the web page on the VMS host? >> >> Thanks for any ideas you have! > > Hmmm, there's no easy way within the web client-server dialogue to ask > what the credentials used on the Windows machine were. I don't know all > the tools that integrate Windows authentication with that of VMS, but at > the very least they'd have to enter their password into the browser when > they pulled up the first page. But isn't this issue independent of whatever machine the browser is running on? It would seem to me be sufficient to put those pages in a group to which the annointed ones belong, so accessing only requires VMS aunthentication. > > Would an alternative approach perhaps be to group these users into some > subnet and only make the relevant Apache pages available from there? > > > Doc. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:14:17 -0700 From: "Malcolm Dunnett" Subject: Re: Capturing and using NT login for security with Apache Message-ID: <460a940a$1@flight> "mecograph" wrote in message news:1175033141.931371.74320@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > > In other words, can I test for the NT login (or some other flag to > distinguish who is requesting the page) and use that information to > restrict access to the web page on the VMS host? > I think what you are asking for is called "Integrated Authentication" in the Windows world. If you run an IIS web server you can configure a page to verify against the credentials the client used to log in to the workstation without prompting him to re-enter them. As far as I know this is not possible to do on VMS. I think the closest you could get would be to prompt the user for his windows username/password using basic authentication (preferably over a secure link) and write an Apache authentication module that would use the $ACM routines to check those credentials against the domain. I've been meaning to write such a module for the OSU webserver for quite a while now but haven't gotten around to it yet. Writing modules for Apache is somewhat complex but well documented - check your local bookstore for books on managing the Apache server. Of course if the clients also have a VMS account you can easily configure Apache to verify pages access against that via username, group or other identifier the account holds - but I take it in your case you don't want to require them to have an account on the VMS system. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:18:45 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: COV: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:26:17 -0800, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <4609b223$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, > Arne Vajhøj writes: >> AEF wrote: >>> Pardon my ignorance, please, but why is any using Info-VAX? Under what >>> situation is that better than a newsreader? Are they situations where >>> one can get Info-VAX but not news (other than the HP email device for >>> grandparents who don't want a real computer!) >> >> Some ISP's only email not a NNTP server. >> >> You can pay extra for a NNTP service or you can use the web interface >> at Google, but some may not find any of those attractive. > > news.individual.de I have used them now for two years and the latency (time from hitting send to receiving the message) is on the order of a few seconds. > > Costs less per year than a case of beer. 10 € > > bill > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 05:30:43 -0700 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Message-ID: <1175085043.440558.240420@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 26, 10:12 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > "Richard B. gilbert" wrote: > > > Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > > > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > >> I can't find any VMS content here between the religious/non-religious > > >> biased drivel, > > > >> I can probably get more search hits on "VMS" by searching the base-64 > > >> encoded posts in alt.binaries.sex.some.bizarre.disgusting.perversion > > >> than I can find here. > > > >> Thanks and I'll tune in again when everybody can, at least, put OT: = on > > >> these completely OFF TOPIC postings. > > > > I think it is many years ago that c.o.v/I-V stopped being a real > > > technical forum. > > > > What HP should do know and what HP/Compaq/Digital should have > > > done 5/10/20 years ago has long been the dominant topic. > > > > If you ask me - the difference between that and a DCL or VMS > > > sysmgmt questions is bigger than between that and > > > global warming discussions. > > > > Arne > > > All these people who know best how DEC/Compaq/HP SHOULD have managed and > > marketed VMS and how many are president of anything or sit on the board > > of directors of anything?!?! How many manage to earn $200K/year or more > > doing anything at all? I include myself, BTW. > > ...and your point is? > > How many multi-billion dolar companies did Bill Gates found before M$ evo= lved > into what it is today? How many people found more than one? > > From your 401K or other investment account statement: "Past history is no > guarantee of future performance." Past history? Yes, I know that phrase has been used a lot, but isn't it a bit redundant? Is there such a thing as "future history"? :-) > > When the presumably educated/accomplished are (Censored)ing up as badly a= s this > bunch, a cat with a crayon in its mouth could likely do a better job. Better job than what? Building Mircosoft? Get me one of those cats. :-) > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemshttp://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Pagehttp://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/suppor= t/- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - AEF ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 03:04:52 -0700 From: "Andrew" Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: <1175076292.270394.81600@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On 23 Mar, 18:55, Paul Sture wrote: > In article <1174648146.607308.325...@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, > > "Andrew" wrote: > > A condensing Gas or Oil fired boiler (furnace for the American > > Speakers) is typically 85% + efficient at turning fossil fuel into > > heat. Older boilers are generally 50-60% efficient so replacing them > > is always a good idea anyway. > > Coincidentally, in my response to a post made by John Wallace I touched > on the relative efficiency of gas vs electricity for heating the home. > > > Assuming your electricity comes from fossil fuel generation then it is > > less than 50% efficient and thats without transmission losses. > > According to my geography teacher when I was in my early teens, one coal > fired power station in the UK was about 13% efficient. That figure stuck > in my mind. > Drax is the UK and Europe's largest fossil fuel powerstation it can supply about 7% of the UK's energy requirments. Its current efficiency is 38% though it has recently signed a contract with Siemens to update its generating technology which will boost efficiency to 43%. Drax burns coal, most of the other fossil fuel powerstations in the UK burn gas and they are typically about 55% efficient. Both of these numbers are pre transimssion loss numbers. Regards Andrew ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 07:20:51 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: In article <46099127$0$7608$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: >> >> Jeff Smith used gas. Julia Child used electric. They didn't cook >> the same stuff the same way. > > Sadly, they are not among the chefs I have worked with. Are they (in)famous > in your part of the world? You don't get American PBS? The Frugal Gourmet and The French Chef are quite well known. In fact, they put her kitchen in the Smithsonian (I've seen it there). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:20:35 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Latest bzip2 kit (Are you at 130.83.236.10?) Message-ID: <07032809203509_20203961@antinode.org> There's a new (version 1.0.4a) bzip2 kit in or near the usual place: http://antinode.org/dec/sw/bzip2.html Sadly, I initially put a defective kit on the server, and someone at 130.83.236.10 (tu-darmstadt.de) got that one before I noticed the problem (which will cause trouble if you try to use the object library with the new Info-ZIP [Un]Zip programs). The kit there now should be good (or as good as usual, anyway). My profuse apologies to the unlucky fellow who got the defective kit. There seem to be no very important changes since version 1.0.3, so if you're already using my 1.0.3c kit, you probably don't need to drop everything to suck down the new one. If you want to build the new Info-ZIP [Un]Zip programs with bzip2 support, when they arrive [*], you should have bzip2 1.0.3c or newer, as they'll be looking for the BZ_NO_STDIO object library (LIBBZ2_NS.OLB), which wasn't being built automatically before that. Sorry to interrupt the discussion of home heating systems. (Not.) [*] Don't ask me, but the next "BETA" source kits may be getting closer. (How's that for a commitment?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 08:01:08 -0700 From: "Ian Miller" Subject: Re: Latest bzip2 kit (Are you at 130.83.236.10?) Message-ID: <1175094068.752815.147790@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> there also a 1.0.4 kit over at Alexey's place http://fafner.dyndns.org/~alexey/clamav/BZIP2-1_0_4.TAR-GZ Discovering if this is significantly different to Steven's kit is left as an exercise for the reader :-) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 09:32:52 -0700 From: "urbancamo" Subject: OpenVMS 7.3-1 on DEC 3000/600 with PMAGD-BA Graphics Message-ID: <1175099572.278365.53020@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Hi, I've search the newsgroups but can't get a definitive answer to my question. Will the hobby version of OpenVMS (7.3-1) I believe for Alpha/AXP install on a DEC 3000 Model 600 with a PMAGD-BA (also known as ZLX-E2) 24-bit plane graphics card? >From my searches it would appear that I may need to install the Open3D product to get an X-Window display. If this is the case, do I require a license for this as it would appear that the standard hobbyiest license pack does not include a license for Open3D. If I ould require 2D operation, will the base operating system install a working X- Server for this graphics card. Many thanks for the help, Mark Wickens ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:10:44 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Message-ID: <130kamb8ggjot97@corp.supernews.com> genius@marblecliff.com wrote: > On Mar 27, 5:04 pm, Doc wrote: > >>gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1175012599.476470.65040@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com: >> >> >>>On Mar 27, 6:20 am, Mark Daniel wrote: >>> >>>>Mark Daniel wrote: >> >> >> >>>and it should still run under purveyor ... you said we are the >>>only one running it and we are not having any problems >>>with the way we are using it, so to "write out" purveyor >>>sounds like an excuse not to support us ... which now puts >>>you in the same company as Bill Gates and others who try >>>to dictate to HP not to promote vms ... >> >>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/3d096dcabf9b0117 >> >>What I read was a perfectly reasonable issue to drop support. Purveyor >>is broken in some circumstances and it'll break soyMAIL. You have seen a >>notice from the Process website that this bug exists, it's time to move >>to a more modern web server. WASD is free, stable, and fast. The >>support available on the mailing list is excellent (if you remain civil). >>It is - as you profess to prefer - an application written specifically >>for OpenVMS. >> >>Take a closer look at the configuration of Deathrow for an idea of what >>you can do with WASD. Hosting multiple domains and http/https is trivial >>stuff. We've got users able to write their own CGI scripts and they run >>under their username. One of our administrators even developed an >>application to expose Notes on an authenticated web connection. >>Apparently that wasn't too much of a problem with the interface to WASD. >> >>Don't just take the word of a Godless heathen, I'm sure if you ask you'll >>find plenty of churchgoers who agree with me. ;-)~ >> >>Doc. > > > wasd is like apache and osu and every other unix variant ... > > it is .CONF city ... > > purveyor on the other hand can be maintained by simply editing > ONE single config file ... I cannot let the following go uncommented on. (Probably I should save the keystrokes but sometimes the frontal lobes lose to the brainstem.) None of this is new information. [But Bob persists. How can he do that? Most of us would shrivel up from embarrassment.] > got it now ... Purveyor = written for vms + simplicity Purveyor IS NOT WRITTEN *FOR* VMS Bob. Something I believe you are well aware of, I've certainly mentioned it to you on more than one occasion, but you persist in either deluding yourself or conveniently ignoring this point so you can continue defending an otherwise indefensible position - that Purveyor, being written for VMS, is therefore somehow 'better' than alternatives. If you were to just say "I prefer Purveyor and here is why ..." most here would be satisfied. It's this supercilious sense of self-righteousness that seems to put people offside. [pure personal opinion] In my understanding the original Purveyor was purchased or licenced from another party and adapted by PSC to be usable on VMS. I cannot assert this as a fact because I was not personally privy to the original arrangement but that is what I have been told (with reasonable authority). (And before you seize on this statement it's basically immaterial.) Certainly we will not get any PSC clarification because they are obviously (or at least seemingly) under some directive not to comment on anything regarding Purveyor. What I can state is that I've seen the code-base and it has so little specific to VMS as to be unmistakably like any other application ported from a foreign platform. In fact there are many more obvious Windows-isms in it than obvious VMS-isms. Of course you don't need exposure to the code-base to see that it was not designed on or specifically for VMS. Take a couple of obvious (and oft-cited) examples. 1) The configuration file of which you appear so enamoured. Why would a configuration tool written by and for a VMS application have such a striking resemblance to the Microsoft Windows Registry structure? Key Name: SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Purveyor\Parameters Value 0 Name: DefaultIcon Type: REG_SZ Data: /~icons/default.gif 2) Dynamically loadable modules. Why would a loadable image designed for and on VMS not have a .EXE file type rather than a .DLL file type, more reminiscent of originating from a Microsoft Windows platform? $ dir dka0:[purveyor...]*.dll Directory DKA0:[PURVEYOR.RSM] RSMAC_AXP.DLL;1 655KB 16-SEP-1996 18:23:39.90 RSMAC_VAX.DLL;1 494KB 16-SEP-1996 18:22:56.22 RSM_AXP.DLL;1 843KB 16-SEP-1996 18:21:26.67 RSM_VAX.DLL;1 809KB 16-SEP-1996 18:21:05.61 Total of 4 files, 2.73MB Directory DKA0:[PURVEYOR.SAMPLES.SCRIPTS.DLL] SAMPLE_AUTH_AXP.DLL;1 4KB 16-SEP-1996 18:24:59.76 SAMPLE_AUTH_VAX.DLL;1 3KB 16-SEP-1996 18:24:28.25 SAMPLE_DLL_AXP.DLL;1 4KB 16-SEP-1996 18:24:53.09 SAMPLE_DLL_VAX.DLL;1 3KB 16-SEP-1996 18:24:21.33 Total of 4 files, 15KB Grand total of 2 directories, 8 files, 2.75MB Just a coincidence? Not highly likely! > wasd,osu,apache = written for unix = convuluted ... This equation is at best only one third correct. 1) WASD is written, right from inception, expressly for VMS. It is tightly integrated with VMS. It does not have VMS-isms it *is* a VMS-ism. I will not run on any other platform. For example, all network I/O is done with $QIO. File-system access via RMS and $QIO. All threading is performed using the AST mechanism. As the author I can speak with authority on this item. How you can state it is written for Unix defies belief! Have you had your head up your a*[*]s all these years? [rhetorical question] 2) OSU (AIUI) was written on VMS for VMS but in sufficiently platform-neutral fashion, and using a common threading model and the standard C libarary, as to be deployable on OSF/1 (using a few #ifdef). It was (I would guess) an early effort in leveraging cross-platform commonalities thereby reducing porting effort. [Someone correct or clarify as necessary.] 3) Apache certainly originated on Unix (originally as the NCSA HTTPd). [Please] Do not continue to propagandize the malarky in your post. Now I will shake the dust from my feet. -- Odium theologicum ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odium_theologicum ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 05:39:28 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: OSU update: soyMAIL v1.3 is now available Message-ID: <1175085568.934186.291070@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 28, 4:40 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > > Purveyor IS NOT WRITTEN *FOR* VMS Bob. I was told by someone who worked on the purveyor development team that purveyor was written for vms and even more so for TCPware ... the biggest difference are all unix web servers are threaded, but purveyor uses vms processes ... that alone makes it very vms specific, but here are some more tidbits I found ... notice that second link where it says "engineered" for OpenVMS ... I did not write that Mark, someone else did ... and I also notice that you support purveyor DLLs and other features which means at one time you must have been impressed with purveyor and there must have been many users of it, which you can by searching still find many references of how rock solid it is/was ... even DEC ran their web site on it ... I time tested purveyor againset osu and apache (not wasd) and found that purveyor DID outperform them ... so do not go knocking something that has impressed and served vms users so well for years ... http://vms.process.com/~help/helppurveyor.html#E21E5 Purveyor's OpenVMS Features Available for Digital Alpha and VAX systems Runs as a VMS detached process for optimum response time Handles multiple simultaneous connections and adapts to load using static and dynamic worker processes, providing better performance in symmetrical multiprocessing (SMP) environments Can be configured remotely using Remote Server Management, storing the information in a configuration database Can be reconfigured without stopping and restarting the server Supports multiple IP addresses Optional access to user-supplied Web pages Supports multiple unique configurations for true multi-site hosting http://www.sss.co.nz/software/purveyor/purveyor.htm Engineered for OpenVMS Purveyor Encrypt for OpenVMS has been designed to take advantage of the OpenVMS architecture. Not only is Purveyor the industry's highest- performance Web server for OpenVMS, but Purveyor fully supports load sharing across the multiple CPUs of an SMP system for incredible system throughput. Additionally, when coupled with Process Software's TCPware, the industry's leading TCP/IP stack for OpenVMS, Purveyor provides sophisticated support for clustering, including transparent operation on a mixed-architecture VMScluster. This means that you can have your primary Web server on one cluster system, either VAX or Alpha, with automatic, transparent, fail-over to any other system in the cluster, which can also be either a VAX or Alpha system! http://vms.process.com/~help/helpapiextension.html Advantages of DLLs Extension DLLs have a number of technical advantages: Extension DLLs load into the server's process space, eliminating the time and resource demands of creating additional processes. All resources available to the server are also available to its DLLs. DLLs execute with minimal overhead and considerably faster than EXE files. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:43:44 -0500 From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Message-ID: <130kvp5en1urdf0@news.supernews.com> Only problem They start at $45000 DT -- Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Savannah GA 31404 Tel: 912 447 6622 x201 Mail: dturner-atnospam-islandco-com (You know what to do with the dashes) "David J Dachtera" wrote in message news:4609C13A.86FA846C@spam.comcast.net... > Bill Todd wrote: > > > > Island Computers, D B Turner wrote: > > > Sorry > > > > > > I meant to post this to alt.solar.photovoltaic and not here > > > > > > I am not trying to go off topic > > > > Heaven forbid! But as someone not familiar with Phoenix, I found it > > interesting anyway. > > > Their Web site doesn't say what kind of battery technology they're > > using, but the only one I'm familiar with that could even begin to > > support 10-minute recharging to 95% capacity is NiMH (unless Li-polymer > > can as well; NiCd may too, but my impression is that automotive volumes > > aren't feasible for either). > > Carbon-less Lithium Ion (Titanate). See http://www.altairnano.com/ and > http://www.altairnano.com/markets_amps.html > > > In any event, that tends to eliminate the last major hurdle to use > > (having to wait overnight to go more than 100 miles or so). OTOH, none > > of the battery technologies I'm familiar with would support the ~2500 > > recharge cycles required to make the pack last ~250K miles, as > > advertised: any insight into such issues (you could email me if > > continuing the discussion here would be too distressing for you - though > > my guess is that I'm not the only one here who might be interested)? > > It'd be quite suitable for my 8-mail each way daily commute to the train > station, 47 miles each way if I have to drive up to the city. > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 15:38:28 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Message-ID: <56vgfkF2a1kmeU1@mid.individual.net> In article <130kvp5en1urdf0@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers, D B Turner" writes: > Only problem > > They start at $45000 That was the peice I couldn't find that I was waiting for. Kind of like the Hydrogen Fuel Cell car that debuted at the Tokyo Auto Show. Hype said it would revolutionize the car industry. Pricetag: $150,000 Yeah, I can see everybody running right out to buy one of them. I have looked at electric cars before. There was a guy who did a really neat conversion opf a Triumph Spitfire to electric. And there was a bunch of stuff on web a while back about a school team that was going to do a conversion of another Spitfire for a contest. Some of the requirements were that it had to weigh no more than the original gas powered car and part of the contest was a gymkana type performance test. The only problem they were having was the electric motor generated more torque than the original engine and they were afraid it would tear out the differential. It easily outperformed an original Spitfire which is impressive as mine was a really good handling sports car. There is, of course, one problem to this whole electric car thing. If you live up here where I live how do you heat the car in the winter? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:19:00 -0500 From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Message-ID: <130l5bpp9s9m9df@news.supernews.com> I am sure they have thought of that.. Plug it into the grid - let it suck up 100KW of heat energy...to warm the motor. That would make sense huh? I asked about buying one a few months ago - they were taking "deposits" for the SUV variant coming out in 08 They are not very well financed methinks and that spells disaster - or hostile takeover when they eventually go public. Even if they make it, there is always the greed issue. Stockholders get offered stupid money for their stock. GM buys it and dumps it "Happened before and will happen again..." said the cynic DT -- Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Savannah GA 31404 Tel: 912 447 6622 x201 Mail: dturner-atnospam-islandco-com (You know what to do with the dashes) "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:56vgfkF2a1kmeU1@mid.individual.net... > In article <130kvp5en1urdf0@news.supernews.com>, > "Island Computers, D B Turner" writes: > > Only problem > > > > They start at $45000 > > That was the peice I couldn't find that I was waiting for. Kind of like > the Hydrogen Fuel Cell car that debuted at the Tokyo Auto Show. Hype > said it would revolutionize the car industry. Pricetag: $150,000 > Yeah, I can see everybody running right out to buy one of them. > > I have looked at electric cars before. There was a guy who did a > really neat conversion opf a Triumph Spitfire to electric. And > there was a bunch of stuff on web a while back about a school team > that was going to do a conversion of another Spitfire for a contest. > Some of the requirements were that it had to weigh no more than the > original gas powered car and part of the contest was a gymkana type > performance test. The only problem they were having was the electric > motor generated more torque than the original engine and they were > afraid it would tear out the differential. It easily outperformed > an original Spitfire which is impressive as mine was a really good > handling sports car. > > There is, of course, one problem to this whole electric car thing. > If you live up here where I live how do you heat the car in the winter? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:19:50 -0500 From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Message-ID: <130l5d9osg7ch19@news.supernews.com> Of course, any sucker buying a hybrid lexuz SUV will be paying that too. And v low maintenance. -- Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Savannah GA 31404 Tel: 912 447 6622 x201 Mail: dturner-atnospam-islandco-com (You know what to do with the dashes) "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:56vgfkF2a1kmeU1@mid.individual.net... > In article <130kvp5en1urdf0@news.supernews.com>, > "Island Computers, D B Turner" writes: > > Only problem > > > > They start at $45000 > > That was the peice I couldn't find that I was waiting for. Kind of like > the Hydrogen Fuel Cell car that debuted at the Tokyo Auto Show. Hype > said it would revolutionize the car industry. Pricetag: $150,000 > Yeah, I can see everybody running right out to buy one of them. > > I have looked at electric cars before. There was a guy who did a > really neat conversion opf a Triumph Spitfire to electric. And > there was a bunch of stuff on web a while back about a school team > that was going to do a conversion of another Spitfire for a contest. > Some of the requirements were that it had to weigh no more than the > original gas powered car and part of the contest was a gymkana type > performance test. The only problem they were having was the electric > motor generated more torque than the original engine and they were > afraid it would tear out the differential. It easily outperformed > an original Spitfire which is impressive as mine was a really good > handling sports car. > > There is, of course, one problem to this whole electric car thing. > If you live up here where I live how do you heat the car in the winter? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 17:35:02 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Re: Phoenix electric cars Message-ID: <56vna6F2b2g9bU1@mid.individual.net> In article <130l5bpp9s9m9df@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers, D B Turner" writes: > I am sure they have thought of that.. > Plug it into the grid - let it suck up 100KW of heat energy...to warm the > motor. > > That would make sense huh? > > I asked about buying one a few months ago - they were taking "deposits" for > the SUV variant coming out in 08 > They are not very well financed methinks and that spells disaster - or > hostile takeover when they eventually go public. > Even if they make it, there is always the greed issue. Stockholders get > offered stupid money for their stock. GM buys it and dumps it > > "Happened before and will happen again..." said the cynic Are you still holding a grudge over the Tucker? :-) So, who remembers in the mid 60's when Ford announced their Select Shift. Let's you shift it like a stick or just put it in drive and let it do the shifting. So, who remembers when Plymouth and Hudson both had this back in the 50's. Only real difference was the Plymouth and Hudson both had a clutch when you really needed a manual transmission you could control yourself. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 13:04:56 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <56v7fnF29prb2U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1175080338.368701.51410@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, "Andrew" writes: > On 23 Mar, 18:57, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <1174665317.173628.319...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, >> "Andrew" writes: >> >> >> >> > No, the problem in the US is that Diesel engines are unpopular >> > possibly because most of the US car makers attempts to introduce oil >> > burners resulted in cars that were so "c**p" that no one would buy >> > them. >> >> Oh B**LC**P. Wether the American car companies make them or not is >> irrelevant. Other companies make them but fail to make them generally >> available over here. One of the best cars I ever owned was a Volvo >> 340 GL Diesel. More compfortable than a Cadilac. Good on fuel. Great >> on the highway. And not the problem in winter that one traditionally >> hears about diesels. But rare. I'll bet Volvo didn't ship as many as >> 100 to the US. As for the American manufacturers. I really don't >> remember seeing any Diesel production cars offered so this could easily >> have been a niche the Europeans or Pacific Rim companies cold have >> filled. Just like they did with sportscars (the only real american >> sportscars are the Corvette and the Ford GT, both way out of the price >> range of the average american.) As for the quality of american diesels, >> nothing can hold a candle to a Cummings. But the only non-commercial >> vehicles that have them are pick-up trucks. >> > > The benefits of a Diesel are torque, longevity and fuel consumption. > its hard to design a quite diesel particularly at low speeds and they > generally weigh more than a similar capacity petrol engine, they also > do not generally accelerate from low speeds as well as a petrol > engine. They are also potentially dirtier than petrol engines. Hmmmm... My Volvo (over 20 years ago) had fine acceleration, even fromn a standing stop. Not as fast as a Porsche or BMW, but then it also weighed twice as much (not because of he diesel!) It was not significantly noisier than a gas car, even within the cockpit. Dirtier? How do you mean dirtier? Supposedly, diesels polute less than cars. (More on that later!) > > Now in trucks the torque, fuel consumption and longevity are clearly > benefits while weight, noise and acceleration don't really matter so > you can see why there would be a market for Diesels Truck engines in > the US. I have known a number of people who have driven diesels over here. While we don;t see many, we do get a couple. My Volvo, some VW's and even Mercedes. They sell. I have never seen one sitting on the showroom floor because the dealrership couldn't sell it. I have seen them on the road. > > However as a replacement for petrol engines in cars the very low US > gas prices Until the big gas fiasco in the 70's diesel was always significantly cheaper than gas. When the "gas crisis" first hit the difference was as much a 4:1 ratio gas to diesel price. Seems like it that would have been the time to hit that market. No one did. > and a car culture where size does matter all have mitigated > against Diesel cars in the US. Afraid I don't see what this has to do with it. There were gas versions of the Volvo I drove, couldn't tell the difference from the outside. Same size, same features. > Why try to design a Diesel engine > which is quiet, Diesels today are nearly as quiet as a gas engine. Ande I doubt the trivial difference matters over hear. Have you ever heard an American Harley-Davidson? :-) > low fuel consumption and has great torque when you can > drop a V8 block into your chassis and because gas prices are low not > worry about the fuel consumption. I hate to ruin your day, but while we may not have reached Europes level (which is of course artificial and totally the fault of taxes) no one over here things gas is cheap anymore. The average american (those that don't drive Porsche, BMW, Mercedes or Cadilac) are very concerned with gas mileage. > > Diesel cars have also suffered in the US because California and New > York emission control regulations are difficult to pass especially > without access to low Sulphur diesel which is standard in Europe but > not widely available in the US. While I can't speak for either of those states, Pennsylvania, where I live, and most other states don't even do emmisions inspections on diesels. Some idea that diesels naturaly generate less polution than gas engines. > >> > The other problem was that until recently very few people in the >> > US gave any attention to fuel consumption at all and your petrol >> > prices were low. >> >> Actually, the problem is not that they don't pay it any attention, it's >> that they have little if any control over it. You, yourself said that >> German SUV's get better gas mileage. but not whent hey ship them over >> here. I would love to burn less gas. That is one of the reasons why, >> at the age of 57, I am going back to riding a motorcycle. Where I work >> is n ot going to suddenly move closer to my house so how far I drive >> every week is fixed. If the price of gas doubled tomorrow I still have >> to drive here every day. Don't believe everything you see on american >> television. Even if they don't believe in GW or live in a place where >> air pollution is a problem, all americans want to save more money to >> spend on fun things rather then the everyday trip to work. >> > > So why buy a SUV in the first place? Why do people who live in Frankfurt, Germany buy them? > My guess is that 99% of the SUV > owners in the US have absolutely no use whatsoever for their vehicles > ability to go off road I would say that about Europeans more than Americans. And, yes, I have had reason to go off-road with my wife's Jeep. > and investment in decent winter tires would > probably account for the only other circumstances where having a 4x4 > is useful. Go online and see if you can find any news articles about the Valentine's day snowstorm in Pennsylvania. Read about all the people who spent rather lengthy times sitting on I80 and I81, stranded in the snow. This ain't England. Heck, I lived in Germany and vacationed in Bavaria in the winter don't remember ever seeing snowstorms like we have. And it just get's worse further north. Oswego, NY - 8 days - 110 inches. > In fact for most owners having a 4x4 is probably a > disadvantage because on the 1 occasion they are tempted to take the > car off road they are much more likely to get stuck because they have > absolutely no idea what they are doing. This, of course, is very true. And when I lived in Texas and the Army used to let the 4-wheelers play on the tank trails of Ft. Hood (I don't think they allow it anymore because of liability issues) it was quite a laugh to see people getting stuck in mudholes and sand pits that we drove through every day. :-) > > So buy something smaller. And what? Stop going to work in the winter? Nice thought, but unfortuately my creditors don't agree. > > >> Reporter: Are you going to cut down on your gas usage as the price >> continues to rise? >> Customer in gas station: Well, it's really pretty hard on my wallet, >> But I have to go to work everyday so what am I supposed >> to do? I'll continue to drive just like I do now. >> >> What makes the evening news. >> >> Reporter: Are you going to cut down on your gas usage as the price >> continues to rise? >> Customer in gas station: I'll continue to drive just like I do now. >> >> It's not just the rich and famous that get qouted out of context. >> >> >> >> > A badly designed diesel engine in a car is much nastier to drive than >> > a petrol equivalent and the US car industry long adept at producing >> > not terribly good cars made things worse by putting badly designed >> > diesel engines in them. >> >> More B**LC**P. >> >> > > Really Yes, the worst designed and most unreliable cars ever have been British. > >> >> > In Europe petrol prices are higher >> >> Yeah, that's your government screwing you with really high taxes cause >> the cost per barrel is the same and it doesn't have to be shipped as far >> to get to you. Not something I would be proud of. > > Hardly, most European governments have resorted to using taxation as a > method of reducing CO2 emissions. I can understand why many people in > the US would think of this ans a totally alien concept. Probably because it's rather hard to believe. It is much more likely that they, like our government, know that those who drive, in most cases (and much more over there where you have a rather good mass transit system) have no choice. So they have to drive no matter how much it costs. That is definitely the case over here. I don't drive 25 miles each way because I love sitting in traffic for 45 minutes in the morning and evening. I, like most of the people I know, have no other choice. When I have the choice, I ride my bicycle. Or, now that I have a license again, I ride my motorcycle. (I rode it today even though most people would think it still too cold this early int he season.) > > In the UK for example you can get taxed more in at least 5 ways for > owning a gas guzzler. > > 1. You use more fuel and therefore you pay more tax. > 2. You pay more in road tax because the less efficient the car the > higher the rate you pay. In essence you fund part of the the road tax > of more efficient cars. > 3. If you travel into London an efficient car will cost nothing to > enter the C charge zone. > 4. Some local councils charge residents for on-street parking and some > are now levying a higher charge for less efficient cars. > 5. The resale value of your car falls faster on average than that of a > more efficient car. > 6. You get barracked on the school run be people who object to their > roads being clogged up by SUV's. As it should be as there is really no reason whatsoever to use an SUV to get around London. :-) > >> >> > and there is a long history of >> > developing well designed Diesel engines many so good that you cannot >> > tell the difference between them and a petrol unit except that the >> > Diesel engines produce much more torque which is a good thing. >> >> Oh yeah, really well designed. I have known many people with VW >> Diesels that spend more time in the shop than on the road. And >> smoke like chimneys. And then there was the guy that lived in the >> apartmetn by me in Rheindahlen, Germany who kept a spare battery >> for his Mercedes Diesel in his apartment cause ti usually took >> both of them to start it in the winter. One to warm it up and >> the other to crank the engine and fire up the ignition. (You do >> know how big and heavy a battery for a Mercedes Diesel is, don't you?) >> > > I have a BMW diesel and it has never (touch wood) spent any time in > garage being fixed because it is a diesel. In addition all London > Taxis and nearly all standard Taxis in the UK are Diesels and you can > guarantee that their drivers would not choose Diesel models if they > spent large amounts of time off the road. All I can say is that while I also had a diesel (I should probably mention at this point that even though the car was a Volvo the engine was made by VW. Go figure.) and was very happy with it diesels are no more reliable. And when one goes wrong, it can be much harder finding a mechanic who can do anything about it than it would be for a gas car. > >> > They >> > also tend to last a very long time again a characteristic not much >> > valued in the US until recently. >> >> I'll bet there are a lot more cars from the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's >> on the road over here than here are over there. You really don't know >> very much about america and americans, do you? You need to watch less >> tellie and do more traveling. >> > Depends where you are in the states or in Europe. The southern states > where it doesn't get cold/very wet in the winter and where there is > little need to grit the road probably have a higher % of old cars on > the road than the UK or Northern Europe. However the same can also be > said for Greece, Spain and Italy. > > I own one car made in 1957 and one car made in 1962 both are still on > the road and represent 50% of our families car fleet. > > I have driven a lot in the US and I cannot say that I have noticed > that the US car fleet is noticably older than in Europe. Having said > that I guess that things like the Lincoln Town Car look pretty dated > even if they were in fact built last week and that may be where you > got you impression from. OH pulleeeezzzee. I assure you I can tell the difference between a 2006 Lincoln and a 1972 Chevy. Heck, I got a guy in my town who owns (and drives) 4 1951 Hudsons. All original and not "restored". They are just old cars and happen to be what he owns. He is not an antique car buff, he is just an old man. And this is in the state that is famous for the excessive amounts of salt they use in the winter. Oh yeah, and I also have a 1978 MG which I used to drive every day but have decided to restore so I took it off the road when I got the Mazda. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 17:20:51 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: OT: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: AEF wrote: > On Mar 27, 9:35 pm, Arne Vajhj wrote: > > AEF wrote: > > > On Mar 27, 7:09 pm, Arne Vajhj wrote: > > >> AEF wrote: > > >>> Pardon my ignorance, please, but why is any using Info-VAX? Under what > > >>> situation is that better than a newsreader? Are they situations where > > >>> one can get Info-VAX but not news (other than the HP email device for > > >>> grandparents who don't want a real computer!) > > >> Some ISP's only email not a NNTP server. > > > > >> You can pay extra for a NNTP service or you can use the web interface > > >> at Google, but some may not find any of those attractive. > > > > > Well, I'd certainly take Google Groups over having all this stuff > > > emailed to me! What's the advantage of getting it as mail? (OK, you > > > can read it offline, but I thought those days are over, no?) > > > > Different people - different preferences. > > > > Arne > No kidding. I'm still waiting to hear why anyone wants all this stuff > emailed to them. You haven't told me anything I don't already know. Given the choice between USENET and email I'll normally take USENET. Given the choice between Google Groups and email, I'll take email. Personally I *HATE* web forums, and "Google Groups" is nothing more than a web forum front end to USENET. Call me old fashioned, but I do all my USENET reading with the same newsreader (somewhat updated) that I've been using for the last 15 years. It is terminal based, it doesn't soak up a lot of resources, and it lets me use an editor that I've been using for even longer. More importantly my access using this "light weight" solution is far faster than it would be if I was using "Google Groups". I do use email to read INFO-pdp11/vmsnet.pdp-11, but that is in part due to my USENET provider not carrying the vmsnet hierarchy for a couple years. Oddly enough they just started carrying it again. Both USENET and email offer a key advantage over any form of "Web Forum", they allow you to use your own client, and as such it is typically easier and faster to use. I participate in a couple of very active web forums, however, there isn't an active mailing list or USENET group for either. Both are also non-related to computers. Zane ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 07:32:22 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: In article , Bill Todd writes: > > (Are you breathlessly waiting for someone to ask what 'MG' stands for? > I certainly don't know...) Motors General. My brother owned one, and it convinced me to be wary of things both mechanical and British. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 07:47:19 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Bill Todd writes: >> >> (Are you breathlessly waiting for someone to ask what 'MG' stands for? >> I certainly don't know...) > > Motors General. My brother owned one, and it convinced me to be > wary of things both mechanical and British. I thought it stood for Morris Garage. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 13:18:15 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in news:fQgyJu4Ng0nj@eisner.encompasserve.org: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article >> , Bill >> Todd writes: >>> >>> (Are you breathlessly waiting for someone to ask what 'MG' stands >>> for? I certainly don't know...) >> >> Motors General. My brother owned one, and it convinced me to be >> wary of things both mechanical and British. > > I thought it stood for Morris Garage. You'd be right, but Bob's comment about being wary of things "both mechanical and British" still stands. My first MG dropped a valve into the cylinder at 80mph on the motorway. There was a *lot* of blue smoke. :-( Notice - while there's lots of complaints about the controversial OT stuff - none of us can resist talking about other bits of hardware, like cars. :) Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 13:26:17 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: <56v8noF29prb2U2@mid.individual.net> In article <4609b223$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > AEF wrote: >> Pardon my ignorance, please, but why is any using Info-VAX? Under what >> situation is that better than a newsreader? Are they situations where >> one can get Info-VAX but not news (other than the HP email device for >> grandparents who don't want a real computer!) > > Some ISP's only email not a NNTP server. > > You can pay extra for a NNTP service or you can use the web interface > at Google, but some may not find any of those attractive. news.individual.de Costs less per year than a case of beer. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:42:34 +0100 From: Paul Sture Subject: Re: Rules of Engagement WAS: Time for C.O.V.subgroups ? Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > In article , > > Bill Todd writes: > >> > >> (Are you breathlessly waiting for someone to ask what 'MG' stands for? > >> I certainly don't know...) > > > > Motors General. My brother owned one, and it convinced me to be > > wary of things both mechanical and British. > > I thought it stood for Morris Garage. Morris Garages, founded by William Morris, later known as Viscount Nuffield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morris%2C_1st_Viscount_Nuffield -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:06:41 +0100 From: Paul Sture Subject: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:26:17 -0800, Bill Gunshannon > wrote: > > > In article <4609b223$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, > > Arne Vajhøj writes: > >> AEF wrote: > >>> Pardon my ignorance, please, but why is any using Info-VAX? Under what > >>> situation is that better than a newsreader? Are they situations where > >>> one can get Info-VAX but not news (other than the HP email device for > >>> grandparents who don't want a real computer!) > >> > >> Some ISP's only email not a NNTP server. > >> > >> You can pay extra for a NNTP service or you can use the web interface > >> at Google, but some may not find any of those attractive. > > > > news.individual.de > > I have used them now for two years and the latency (time from hitting send > to receiving the message) is on the order of a few seconds. I was using them until about a year ago, and don't remember any performance problems. I did however find that the Mac version of Opera was unacceptably slow for news reading. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 17:24:39 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Suitable news readers - Was: Re: COV: Message-ID: Paul Sture wrote: > I was using them until about a year ago, and don't remember any > performance problems. I did however find that the Mac version of Opera > was unacceptably slow for news reading. I've found that the state of GUI based newsreaders on the Mac is uniformly bad. They all seem to have at least one thing that I dislike. Sadly this is one area where I consider Windows to easily beat the Mac. However, since you can run Unix applications, you do have access to some nice terminal based newsreaders. Zane ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 2007 07:27:51 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Message-ID: In article <4b0f7$460940b3$cef8887a$28803@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> The operations staff does the backups. There's no sensitive data, >> so readall is appropriate. > > But doesn't the operator need write privilege if the backup has a /RECORD > qualifier in it ? or is that a special case for VMS security that allows the > backup recoding date to be modified without write access to the file ? Originally READALL did not allow the operator to /record, but I think that was fixed specifically for this case, from the point of view that the meta-data on the file should be kept correct by the OS, but READALL should not allow other attributes or the users' data to be changed. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.174 ************************