INFO-VAX Sat, 13 Jan 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 25 Contents: Re: Is this a (permanent) disk failure? Re: Is this a (permanent) disk failure? Re: Is this a (permanent) disk failure? Re: ODS5 and hardlinks Re: ODS5 and hardlinks Re: ODS5 and hardlinks Re: OpenVMS Licence for people in Asia Re: OpenVMS Licence for people in Asia Re: Replacement for the TK70 Re: Replacement for the TK70 RMS-E-WLK, device currently write locked Re: RMS-E-WLK, device currently write locked Re: RUN SYS$SYSTEM:DCL on Itanium VMS 8.2-1 Re: strange LINK error Re: strange LINK error Re: strange LINK error Re: strange LINK error Re: Strategies for keeping 2 system disks in sync Re: Strategies for keeping 2 system disks in sync Re: Upgrading DFU ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:37:12 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Is this a (permanent) disk failure? Message-ID: Repeat the MOUNT command with /NOASSIST and see what error is reported. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 2007 11:44:03 -0800 From: TFTAJLLYMXZP@spammotel.com Subject: Re: Is this a (permanent) disk failure? Message-ID: <1168631043.233628.7060@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/QUOTA/NOASSIST DKA100: USR %MOUNT-F-MEDOFL, medium is offline And then, $ SHO DEV DK ... SZEGED$DKA100: Online 0 ... Michael Moroney wrote: > Repeat the MOUNT command with /NOASSIST and see what error is reported. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 03:15:33 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Is this a (permanent) disk failure? Message-ID: TFTAJLLYMXZP@spammotel.com writes: >$ MOUNT/SYSTEM/QUOTA/NOASSIST DKA100: USR >%MOUNT-F-MEDOFL, medium is offline >And then, >$ SHO DEV DK >... >SZEGED$DKA100: Online 0 >... That could be many things. Interesting that no errors were logged. Do other devices (if any) on the same SCSI bus work? Did anything get bumped between the time it was last known to work and when the problem started? Check the connectors (SCSI and power) to be sure they're OK. Of course, it really could be that the drive did die on you. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:33:58 -0500 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: ODS5 and hardlinks Message-ID: <45a7aa68$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com> "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:bFVhpDYdbeSp@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <45A6F886.3B5AA388@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera > writes: >> >> As implemented on VMS, what we call a "hardlink" is really more closely >> akin to >> a "softlink" or "symbolic link". It's just like an alias, except that a >> link >> counter in the file header gets incremented or decremented (as >> appropriate). >> Unlike UN*X, however, there is no "chain of links" that can be followed >> to find >> all of the links to a file(-chain). >> > > What is this -chain you refer to? A command option, or just a way of > saying "file or file-chain"? > > My studies of Ultrix32 internals leads me to beleive Bill Todd's > response is more accurate: both VMS and UNIX keep a single data > structure to track the file (VMS file header, UNIX inode). Hard > links are multipe, indistinguishable directory entires for the > same copy of that structure. This data structure and the file > contents do go away unless the link count (or whatever VMS calls > it) in the strucure goes to 0. > > Unix soft links are a different kind of inode that says the file > is actually found via some other directory entry. VMS aliases > are distinguishable directory entries that don't increment the > link count. The data structure (original UNIX inode or VMS header) > and file content go away when the original file is removed/deleted > since the link count then goes to 0, leaving soft links or aliases > that point to nothing. > > The biggest functional difference between UNIX soft links and VMS > aliases is that the latter cannot span volumes. The biggest > implementation difference is that the latter does not create a > different kind of header. > > I suspect future VMS file system work will need to include a full > soft link capability to improve the portability of UNIX applications. > Adding a special kind of file header is a straightforward, but > non-trivial approach. > Softlinks have already been done and I think there is a adv development kit for it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:43:03 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: ODS5 and hardlinks Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "John E. Malmberg" writes: >> A softlink on UNIX most closely corresponds to a logical name on OpenVMS. > > Whoah, Nelly. Don't go there. File system entries on UNIX haven't > the capabilities of logical names. > > Did you ever see a group-wide soft link? A per-process soft link? > Every process on UNIX that looks at the same soft link gets the same > data. Not necessarily so with logical names (what's your value of > SYS$OUTPUT ?). Perhaps you should become more familiar with 'context-dependent symbolic links' in Tru64: they don't cover *all* the functions of logical names, but they cover much of what you cite above. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:02:35 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: ODS5 and hardlinks Message-ID: John E. Malmberg wrote: ... > A hard link on UNIX and an alias created by SET FILE/ENTER are close to > the same. There are some differences that are important to some > programs and quota management. My increasingly-feeble powers of recollection just offered up one such. IIRC ODS-2 maintains up-pointers in each file header to each file's/directory's parent - but of course it has room for only one such (which I'd suspect is updated when the file/directory is renamed to another parent). With hard links enabled, presumably either that entry represents the initial parent (or a new parent renamed to from the initial parent) just as it does in non-hard-link systems where additional ENTER operations have been performed, and becomes irrelevant if the file is deleted from that parent, or is simply suppressed to avoid giving any parent unequal status. I can't off-hand recall why the up-pointer was defined in the first place, save perhaps that it was possible without undue effort and might help reconstruct a directory hierarchy which had become damaged. The file name field in the file header (which IIRC is updated on RENAME operations to the original parent) is in the same boat when it comes to having multiple parents (hard-link-enabled or not), but I think may always have been defined as being merely informational in nature rather than being used by the system in any manner - save perhaps that the combination of the two fields could be used to determine whether a RENAME was being applied to the original parent entry (since there could have been additional entries even in that one parent directory) and hence whether the name should be updated. - bill ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 2007 11:51:25 -0800 From: "siju" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Licence for people in Asia Message-ID: <1168631485.716923.25930@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> On Jan 5, 8:23 pm, "siju" wrote: > On Jan 5, 7:25 pm, "johnhreinha...@yahoo.com" > > wrote: > >Even though you live in India I believe you can join the US Encompass > > group. The Associate (free) membership (https://www.encompassus.org/secure/membApp/index.cfm?form_type=ASSOC) > > is all you need to get a VMS license from the OpenVMS Hobbyist site. > > Give it about a week or so from when you sign up for the information to > > be transferred to the hobbyist site.Thankyou so much Bob and John:-) > I did use the link above to apply. > waiting now. > While applying for licence at the hobbyist site I was taken to a Page http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/register.php and I chose SIMH Do I need to give a CPU serial no.? How do I do that in SIMH? I tried to generate licence without it and nothing happened :-( AmI supposed to wait now for the licence to come to my e-mail? also there were many choices. OpenVMS VAX Base License OpenVMS Alpha Base License OpenVMS Integrity Base License OpenVMS Layered Products (104 PAK's!) OpenVMS Integrity Layered Products (104 PAK's!) Which one should I choose? I chose the first one for now. What is the difference between them? Thankyou so much for your support and recommendations :-) Kind Regards Siju ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 2007 20:15:11 -0800 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Licence for people in Asia Message-ID: <1168661709.114537.212320@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com> siju wrote: > On Jan 5, 8:23 pm, "siju" wrote: > > On Jan 5, 7:25 pm, "johnhreinha...@yahoo.com" > > > > wrote: > > >Even though you live in India I believe you can join the US Encompass > > > group. The Associate (free) membership (https://www.encompassus.org/secure/membApp/index.cfm?form_type=ASSOC) > > > is all you need to get a VMS license from the OpenVMS Hobbyist site. > > > Give it about a week or so from when you sign up for the information to > > > be transferred to the hobbyist site.Thankyou so much Bob and John:-) > > I did use the link above to apply. > > waiting now. > > > > While applying for licence at the hobbyist site I was taken to a Page > > http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/register.php > > and I chose SIMH > > Do I need to give a CPU serial no.? > How do I do that in SIMH? > > I tried to generate licence without it and nothing happened :-( > AmI supposed to wait now for the licence to come to my e-mail? > > also there were many choices. > > OpenVMS VAX Base License > OpenVMS Alpha Base License > OpenVMS Integrity Base License > OpenVMS Layered Products (104 PAK's!) > OpenVMS Integrity Layered Products (104 PAK's!) > > Which one should I choose? > I chose the first one for now. What is the difference between them? > > Thankyou so much for your support and recommendations :-) > > Kind Regards > > Siju Siju, You pick the VAX Base License and the Layered Products set. The first gets you the license to run the basic OpenVMS operating system, the second gets you the license keys for everything else - TCP/IP, DECnet, C, BASIC, FORTAN, etc. The reason they are separate is that the Base license is specific to your CPU/system but the Layered Product keys work on any VAX or Alpha. I believe that for a license for SimH you put "SIMH" for the CPU serial # John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:11:46 -0500 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Replacement for the TK70 Message-ID: Island Computers, D B Turner wrote: > Actually the TZ87 is read compatible too Caution: acquire the "N" variants of the TZ8x-series DLT drives only with the knowledge of their intended purpose. In particular, those drives are not backward-compatible; the TZ87N and the DLT2000 series are not able to read TK70 media. A TZ87 series drive can read media written from a TZ30, TK50, TK70 or TF70 drive, but cannot write to it. Ancient hardware issues aside (and the TK70 series drive is, what, twenty years old?), DLT drives and media are far more reliable than DDS/DAT low-end cartridge drives. I know of several places that "got cheap" with their archival devices, and subsequently regretted it when they discovered they had a complete set of write-only archives, or archives that required very frequent media rotation and regular deliveries of new media. Once the leader problems and a few weird firmware bugs were fixed on the earliest of the DLT drives and controllers, the DLT cartridges and the drives seem to go on forever, if you're at all kind to them. As for remote BACKUP over DECnet, there's a procedure for that listed in the FAQ . If you do choose this approach, the usual "tricky bit" arises if/when you need to completely re-install from your BACKUP operations; when you need to perform the equivalent of an installation. With remote storage and without local (bootable) media and locally-accessible storage media, you may/will have to shuffle some hardware around to get the restoration to work. But as for BACKUPs, those can be gotten to work based on the FAQ procedure. Or various other means. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 00:21:04 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Replacement for the TK70 Message-ID: <2c-dnXtnF_Xf8TXYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com> tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote: > Hello > I have a number of broken tk70 tape drives. According to some older > post, if the lights on the tk70 start blinking fast then the drive is > no good. Well I am looking for either a way to "fix" these drives or > found a cheap replacement. Its not really work the money to find a scsi > tape controller that may support the tk70 drive (or is it). The prices > that some dealers are asking for a replacement is high also (1 dealer > was asking almost a 500.00 dollars just for the drive). So does anybody > have a low price solution. I was thinking of trying to do a backup > across the net, the systems are on the network, but not part of the > cluster. > thanks > phillip > One of the things that can go wrong with those drives is a broken leader. It takes a tech five or ten minutes to replace the leader. Don't know where you'd get the part but a broken leader has been the problem for at least 75% of the "all lights blinking" problems I've seen over the past few years. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 2007 14:02:32 -0800 From: rajib_agarwala@hotmail.com Subject: RMS-E-WLK, device currently write locked Message-ID: <1168639352.839233.299050@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> What are the possible reason that $1$DIA3: got write locked ? BRAKLIMS $ DISMOUNT $1$DIA3: BRAKLIMS $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/NOASSIST/WRITE $1$DIA3: DATA3 DATA3 %MOUNT-I-WRITELOCK, volume is write locked %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, DATA3 mounted on _$1$DIA3: (DIA4) Originally our VAX disks layout was : Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt BRKVAX$DKA400: Online wrtlck 0 $1$DIA0: (R1UICC) Mounted 0 SYSTEM_DISK 344079 163 1 $1$DIA1: (R7SAEB) Mounted 0 DATA1 1668 39 1 $1$DIA2: (R7WL3A) Mounted 0 DATA2 440946 2 1 $1$DIA3: (DIA4) Mounted 0 DATA3 866005 1 Now all of a sudden $1$DIA3: (DIA4) became "Mounted wrtlck " as shown below. Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt BRKVAX$DKA400: Online wrtlck 0 $1$DIA0: (R1UICC) Mounted 0 SYSTEM_DISK 342855 163 1 $1$DIA1: (R7SAEB) Mounted 0 DATA1 3933 39 1 $1$DIA2: (R7WL3A) Mounted 0 DATA2 440652 2 1 $1$DIA3: (DIA4) Mounted wrtlck 0 DATA3 866005 1 1 I have tried to dismount & mount it with /WRITE , /PRTECTION , but I am not able to make it writable disk and getting the same error "%MOUNT-I-WRITELOCK, volume is write locked" . Please help me out. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 2007 17:12:47 -0800 From: davidc@montagar.com Subject: Re: RMS-E-WLK, device currently write locked Message-ID: <1168650764.352338.158190@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> rajib_agarw...@hotmail.com wrote: > What are the possible reason that $1$DIA3: got write locked ? Usually when I've seen a disk go writelocked like that, it's due to a bad block in the bitmap.sys or indexf.sys files. When this happens, the file system writelocks itself to avoid future corruption. You might try ANALYZE/DISK and see if it comes up with anything. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:36:34 -0500 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: RUN SYS$SYSTEM:DCL on Itanium VMS 8.2-1 Message-ID: Trefor wrote: > On Alpha VMS 7-3.2 > > RUN SYS$SYSTEM:DCL > > is fine. We use it (with lots of parameters) to start another process > to run a command file. > > > But ... on Itanium VMS 8.2-1 > > RUN SYS$SYSTEM:DCL > > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image SYS$SYSTEM:DCL > -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DCL.EXE > -SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=25, virtual > address=000000007FFD > 1160, PC=000000000000000E, PS=7FF97EA4 > > > Any idea why? Is it an Itanium or VMS 8.2-1 problem? From very dim memory, that particular construct was a very rarely-proposed and semi- or entirely-undocumented sequence for launching DCL within a detached process, and it dates back eons. I'd replace that image with LOGINOUT.EXE. What was supposed to happen was that DCL would realize it couldn't start -- DCL is one of the weirder images on OpenVMS, as it is merged into user space and then re-merged and resides in supervisor mode -- and the image would then chain to LOGINOUT which would then re-map DCL and off you go... Now as for whether or not HP considers this a bug, well, report it, and let HP decide that. (Do look around for some documentation on this construct first, as HP may well want to see some indication this was officially documented somewhere. The last time I recall seeing this used was circa V3.*, and it was one of two constructs discussed. And LOGINOUT was inevitably the other approach available then.) Or swap over to an invocation of LOGINOUT, or to a batch queue, or DECnet task-to-task, or... For all I know, the direct use of DCL.EXE in this particular way might well have been deprecated eons ago -- and various of the internals of DCL on OpenVMS I64 are, well, certainly different. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 2007 17:40:34 -0800 From: "Pierre" Subject: Re: strange LINK error Message-ID: <1168652432.387496.309280@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: "Pierre" > > > while linking a C program, I get this error > > _Which_ C program? xmlstarlet > > %LINK-W-MULDEF, symbol decc$txsnprintf multiply defined > > in module DECC$SHR_EV56 file > > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$SHR_EV56.EXE;1 > > That's not strange. Knowing nothing about the program, I'd guess > that it was developed on an older system which lacked snprintf(), so it > includes its own, and that one is bumping into the one in your newer C > run-time library. Note the conditionality in > SYS$COMMON:[DECC$LIB.REFERENCE.DECC$RTLDEF]STDIO.H: yes, you're right. I got a module named snprintf.c I will remove it. or put the #if in it. > #if __CRTL_VER >= 70312000 > int snprintf(char *__s, __size_t __n, const char *__format, ...); > int vsnprintf(char *__s, __size_t __n, const char *__format, __va_list __ap); > #endif > > while you admit that "__CRTL_VER=70320000". > > > any idea ? > > Re-compile the source. If it doesn't already have "#if __CRTL_VER >= > 70312000"-"#endif" around its own snprintf(), you should add it. > > If you don't have the source, you might need to link it against an > older C RTL. thanks for your help :) Pierre. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:58:55 -0500 From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: strange LINK error Message-ID: Pierre wrote: > > yes, you're right. I got a module named snprintf.c > I will remove it. or put the #if in it. > I strongly recommend that you never use the name of a standard C library routine for a replacement function, even if the original function is not present in the host system library. Not only do you run the risk of the duplicate symbol error that you were seeing, the various compilers also know how to inline some of these functions. The expected symbol preemption for linking only applies where shared images are not used, and no optimization is used on the compiler. So unless you use different symbols, you may not get the results at run-time that you were expecting. This is not a VMS specific issue. This same problem has been seen on *NIX platforms on the SAMBA-Technical mailing list. #if __CRTL_VER >= 70312000 int my_snprintf(char *__s, __size_t __n, const char *__format, ...); int my_vsnprintf(char *__s, __size_t __n, const char *__format, __va_list __ap); #define snprintf my_snprintf #define vsnprintf my_vsnprintf #endif You can get a list of the names of the standard C library routines from The Open Group. http://www.opengroup.org/ Registration is required for navigating the site. Google has the site indexed though for quick access, and that does not seem to require registration. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:09:46 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: strange LINK error Message-ID: <07011220094625_2020028F@antinode.org> From: "Pierre" > > > while linking a C program, I get this error > > > > _Which_ C program? > > xmlstarlet Ok. Not one of mine. > > > %LINK-W-MULDEF, symbol decc$txsnprintf multiply defined > > > in module DECC$SHR_EV56 file > > > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$SHR_EV56.EXE;1 > > Re-compile the source. If it doesn't already have "#if __CRTL_VER >= > > 70312000"-"#endif" around its own snprintf(), you should add it. > yes, you're right. I got a module named snprintf.c > I will remove it. or put the #if in it. And, of course, what you want around the function is the complement of what's around the header's prototype, "#if __CRTL_VER < 70312000", not ">=" as I said before. And if you have a prototype in one of your header files (which you should), then that should get the same treatment. You could also compile with an option like "/prefix = except = (snprintf, txsnprintf)" (or whatever else it complains about), and continue to use your own snprintf(). As usual, there's more than one way out of this problem. I generally try to use the system C RTL functions when they exist. > thanks for your help :) Glad to hear that it's all ok now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:29:47 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: strange LINK error Message-ID: <2282$45a85261$cef8887a$419@TEKSAVVY.COM> John E. Malmberg wrote: > I strongly recommend that you never use the name of a standard C library > routine for a replacement function, even if the original function is not > present in the host system library. There are 2 sides to this story though. If you are importing code, it is often easier to just write jacket routines that fill the gaps of routines missing in the CRTL. For instance, in VAX-C, the "strdup" function was missing. So I write my own so that I could take code from other platforms and still use it on VMS without much changes. When I migraded to DEC-C, I noticed that they had added strdup to the CRTL and it generated duplicates. But since I had remembered that I had had to add my own copy to compensate for VMS's missing routines, it was easy to find and remove. Ideally, you would have a separate co,mpilation unit/.obj for those missing routines. So when you link it and find one routine was added to VMS, you could just remove it from that "missing routines" module and recompile. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:17:29 -0500 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Strategies for keeping 2 system disks in sync Message-ID: And it is here time to raise up one of the classic signs from the DECUS Magic Sessions of old... " B U Y M O R E M E M O R Y " Seriously. Clustering, DECwindows, Java, Mozilla, and I/O Caches All Need Memory. As was another regular comment at DECUS Symposia of old: Even Virtual Memory Systems Need Enough Physical Memory. Seriously. More memory is often a cheap fix for many common problems, and these systems are most clearly in serious need of more memory. I'm mildly surprised OpenVMS Alpha is grinding along as well as it is here, too. 5MB is not a disk I/O cache, it's a rounding error comprised of nine pages of physical memory. Make no mistake, OpenVMS is grinding along here. OpenVMS is in rather desperate straights if it's reduced the cache this far, too. Not only will insufficient free memory affect system and application performance, it can also lead to odd-ball behaviours and degenerate cases. You should certainly see graceful degradation, but systems that are severely constrained can and will encounter problems. Such systems will most certainly be slow, and the systems will likely also be somewhat unstable. And stressed software can expose latent bugs. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:17:25 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Strategies for keeping 2 system disks in sync Message-ID: <45ednfH7dJa4rjXYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com> Stephen Hoffman wrote: ... > 5MB is not a disk I/O cache, it's a rounding error comprised of nine > pages of physical memory. 9? Let alone on a DS10L? Regardless, for a workstation primarily doing serial operations it shouldn't be too bad: granted, it won't actually cache much of anything (which may or may not slow things down, depending on the degree to which the workload benefits from disk caching), but it should be more than adequate to buffer I/O requests, shouldn't it? In a situation where RAM is limited, I'd tend to suspect that giving the system as much physical memory as possible to back *virtual* memory might take precedence over enlarging the disk cache. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:58:42 -0500 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Upgrading DFU Message-ID: AEF wrote: > So my question is: Can I just simply run PRODUCT to install the DFU > v2.7-A .PSCI file or do I have to somehow deinstall the old version of > DFU first? I'd PCSI install DFU right over the top of the existing software, and I'd be surprised if there were any problems. Few VMSINSTAL-based products had deinstallation procedures. Fewer still had functional procedures. If you're massively paranoid, perform a disk BACKUP/IMAGE of your system disk. But I'd doubt that would be warranted here. (Murphy does seem to know when the last BACKUP/IMAGE was made, particularly as compared with when the last large-scale disk or application upgrades, updates or modifications were made. But an isolated and simple software installation very rarely seems to capture Murphy's attention.) Hoff -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.025 ************************